In the age of ultra-compact bullpup, are SMGs obsolete?
>>30523998
Considering the shit ballistics of 5.56, particularly out of shorter barrels, no.
>but pistol rounds suck at killing! rifle rounds are better!
This is a meme.
Even SBRs make SMGs obsolete, so of course bullpups would, given they are superior ballistically to SBRs
>>30524016
>but pistol rounds suck at killing! rifle rounds are better!
That's actually true.
>>30524016
>Implying only 5.56 exists
Half the meme cartridges being developed lately address the short barrel issue
>>30523998
I'd say so.
>>30524016
Isn't shorter by enough to matter.
>>30524016
The barrel isn't shorter in a bullpup though.
>>30524016
5.56 out of a normal barrel (bullpup) > 5.56 out of a short barrel > most any SMG round
>>30524024
Because intermediate rifle rounds have such a good track record for stopping people, right?
lol
>>30524037
Rounds like .300 blk are far heavier and have far more recoil.
So they have advantages and disadvantages. They don't render SMGs obsolete.
>>30524016
>what is 6.8 SPC
>what is .458 SOCOM
>>30524044
>>30524041
>isn't shorter
Did you see OP's pic?
And the average bullpup has a shorter barrel than a full length rifle.
>>30524058
>Because intermediate rifle rounds have such a good track record for stopping people, right?
they don't?
>>30524061
see
>>30524058
They have advantages, but they don't fill the same role as an SMG
>>30524016
Rifle rounds are better.
Mk 262 ammunition.
>>30523998
Subguns are only really obsolete as frontline battlefield weapons, they have other applications.
>>30524016
.300BLK, my man.
>>30524058
>far more recoil
Don't be a bitch, it's not hard to shoot .300BLK
>>30524061
>what is .458 SOCOM
A heavily recoiling round intended for sporting use and not really tactical use?
Isn't an SMG with a folding stock still more compact that a bullpup? SMGs will probably be the weapon of choice at least for vehicle crews for a while.
>>30524076
Where have you been for the last 50 years?
Why do you think people keep advocating for larger rounds?
Have you not seen ballistics tests of M855? It's trash.
>>30524081
>Don't be a bitch, it's not hard to shoot .300BLK
Where did I say it's hard?
I said it has more recoil.
That is a fact, and it is a disadvantage. Particularly if firing full auto or bursts.
>>30524079
A 5.56 out of a 14.5 inch M4 has almost the exact same amount of momentum as a 9mm out of a 9 inch MP5.
>but muh kinetic energy!
Kinetic energy is just a measure of work done on the projectile.
Lighter objects are more efficient to do work on because they have less inertia.
Kinetic energy has no direct relationship with lethality. It's about as important as shit like angular velocity.
>>30524139
oh my god please stop.
No where did I mention kinetic energy. 5.56 fragments and fucks shit up unlike 9mm. Please stop. You don't know what you're talking about. Allow SMG's to die.
>>30524162
Not him but 5.56 needs to be going nice and quick to fragment in a desirable way.
>>30524070
The average bullpup has the same barrel length, the overall length is shorter. OP's pic is a bullpup with a shorter barrel, that is true.
Just clarifying, not sure if you worded that properly.
>>30524175
I mentioned Mk 262 which fragments reliably from short barreled rifles. Advances in ammunition has made the short barreled 5.56 quite deadly.
>>30524162
>No where did I mention kinetic energy.
That was a preemptive greentext, because people always fall back to that nonsense.
>5.56 fragments and fucks shit up unlike 9mm.
Fragmentation has been shown time and again to be an unreliable wounding mechanism, which is why most modern 5.56 ammo is moving away from it.
>>30524189
Must have missed that, my b.
>>30524189
You mean Mk 318 Mod 0
Subguns aren't obsolete, but the ONLY use they have in this day and age is by SWAT guys operating in confined urban areas.
>>30524181
The average bullpup has the same barrel length as the average carbine, not the average full sized rifle.
>>30524211
Excuse me, my bad - I meant to saw yawing and fragmentation together. I agree fragmentation alone but yawing and instability along with penetration is a man killer.
>>30523998
Probably, but civilian and maybe even LEO market will keep them alive.
They're fun guns, ammo is cheap, but still powerful enough to kill someone dead if need be.
>>30524228
At the range it is being use tit doesn't matter.
And what is non FMJ NATO 5.56?
>>30524237
Alright fine. Rifle rounds can do that.
But as long as pistol rounds can deliver 9mm or bigger holes to vital organs, I really think the "pistol rounds suck at killing" meme needs to die.
I think it comes from badly designed hollow points (and there are a ton out there) which fail to penetrate far enough to reach vital organs.
>>30524289
I don't think 9mm is bad at killing. 4 years as a combat medic and now 3 years and still going active duty pulling triggers and I can say that 9mm does indeed kill. Terribly designed hollow points lead to some shitty shootout situations.
But - I'll be clear. 9mm kills however 5.56 kills better. Does that make the 9mm bad? No, not at all. Low recoil, low flash, low noise make it a good platform in certain applications.
>>30523998
There's not really much reason for a dedicated, MP5-style, pistol caliber carbine, especially when the AR platform has exploded with short barrel and multi-caliber options. I think there's still a niche for PDWs, for ultra-confined spaces and when you need more concealable firepower than a pistol can give you.
Maybe there's some argument to be made for pistol rounds being easier or more practical for full-auto, but I don't know enough about that to comment.
>>30524058
>Because intermediate rifle rounds have such a good track record for stopping people, right?
Much better than handgun rounds, you dip.
>>30524289
But it's not a meme
Handgun rounds are not very good at killing people.
>>30524089
using M855 as an example of why intermediate rounds suck is like using FMJ as an example of why pistol rounds suck
rifles are really loud senpai
>>30524321
>9mm kills however 5.56 kills better.
Eh, I think it's a bit situational.
9mm makes .55 inch holes in people that reliably reach organs.
I've seen ballistics tests of M855A1 where the fragmentation looked very shallow.
I get that they want to ensure it fragments reliably, but I don't think having such a short neck was the solution.
In my opinion, they should have kept a longer neck, and designed the round to just be less stable, like the 5.45, but with fragmentation.
Maybe that kind of round already exists, I dunno.
I just think there's too many factors to say "pistol = shit, rifle = good!"
>>30524385
stahp. pls
>>30524385
>Maybe that kind of round already exists, I dunno.
mk318 mod 0 is a popular and effective round in the military. Literally nobody thinks m855 was a good design so I don't know why people are using it to represent 5.56 or intermediate cartridges as a whole.
>>30524385
>I've seen ballistics tests of M855A1 where the fragmentation looked very shallow.
are you looking at a fucking ruler or just a fucking youtube video and guesstimating how fucking deep it went?
>>30524355
I'd rather have an FMJ pistol round then some of these shitty hollow point rounds out there.
A lot of big name hollow points don't even reliably penetrate 12 inches of gel.
If you read the FBI report on this, 12 inches is not a standard to reach, it's a bare minimum.
That's why pistol rounds get such a bad reputation today.
There's that one article of a cop that shot a ton of rounds at a guy, and hit him in 4 vital locations, including the heart, but he didn't die.
Why?
Penetration.
The round must have failed to penetrate any meaningful distance into his heart, because if your heart is actually destroyed, you've got like 5-10 seconds maximum of consciousness, no matter how bad you are.
I know this is a bit tangential, but I'm trying to explain my thinking.
>>30524385
>I think
I see where you went wrong.
Terminal ballistics does not care about your thoughts or feelings. While yes, pistol rounds are better than nothing. In comparison if modern bullets in designed for the application for rifles and handguns fired from ~10" barrels, the rifle rounds are going to be poignantly more lethal.
>>30524422
Do any of those fragments reach 12 inches?
Because from what I've seen and read, they don't.
But maybe you have some better info that I don't have.
>>30524430
Both actually, thank you.
>>30524467
>Terminal ballistics does not care about your thoughts or feelings.
That's a strange thing to say when you immediately follow it up with your own thoughts and feelings.
>>30524470
Pretty much all the testing I've heard of indicates the terminal effectiveness of M855a1 is fine. Never heard or seen anywhere that it's not making 12" in gel. Even Gary Roberts, who has otherwise been critical of M855a1, has said that it has perfectly adequate terminal effectiveness (barring the intermediate barrier situation).
>>30524470
you must not have read anything about it then because the reason it was chosen was because it had the exact ballistic performance the military desired.
>>30524555
The penetrator goes like 18 inches iirc, but the fragmentation doesn't go anywhere near that depth.
>>30524556
What they wanted isn't what's at issue.
>>30524480
Repeatable tests conducted under strictly controlled industry approved methods are thoughts and feelings?
>>30524581
>What they wanted isn't what's at issue.
how about you just google mk318 mod 0 before talking out your ass for 10 more posts
>>30524583
I must have missed the 'repeatable tests conducted under strictly controlled industry approved methods' in your post.
Can you please point out where you posted them? Because without them being present in your post, what you posted were just thoughts and feelings.
But surely you didn't make such an error.
>>30524228
Copy.
I always assume carbine.
>>30524605
I did, and in the tests I saw, the penetration of the fragments was rather shallow.
If you have information showing the fragmentation penetrates much deeper than that, then please just post it like I've been politely asking you to.
>>30524609
Holy shit you are so butthurt
>>30524139
never go full retard.
>>30524631
post a link to the tests you saw. the 318 is not even designed to fragment as much as something like M193
>>30524637
That's not an argument, and sarcasm isn't butthurt.
Though of course in your mind, if I'm angry that means I lose, so trying to frame me as being angry is understandable.
>>30523998
>are SMGs obsolete?
>The nose knows.
>>30523998
This is some surf bait. Every weapon and caliber has a purpose.
>>30524581
The frag doesn't go that deep with 77gr OTM or bonded TOTM either. Actually, I can't think of a single 5.56 loading that consistently sends frag deeper than 12". So you're asking for something that doesn't exist.
>>30524652
I can't really tell what's going on in that picture.
But anyway, I just searched "mk318 mod 0 ballistic gel" and clicked the first few links.
Then i went to the images tab and looked at some of those.
I could see the penetrator obviously went far, but the fragmentation all seemed to be very shallow.
Do you have better info for me or not? Because I seriously just want to know if mk318 is better than i thought.
I don't care if what I guessed at earlier was wrong, because I said I wasn't sure and was clearly hoping for some more info.
>>30524694
Okay, thank you.
That's all I wanted to know.
This all started because I said I'd prefer a 5.56 that had deeper fragmentation, that still fragmented reliably, and threw out a theory about what might work.
I don't know why everyone's being so argumentative.
>>30524659
Just an observation
Post your SMG, gramps
>>30524704
you have no idea what you are talking about. there is no "penetrator" and the "fragmentation" is going to come mainly from the hollow tip which is designed to make the bullet yaw, not be the primary source of damage. Are you looking for some kind of controlled fragmentation bullet that both fragments and penetrates at the same time over the entire wound channel? because that doesn't exist.
>>30524723
>I don't know why everyone's being so argumentative.
4chan in a nutshell
Ever fired an ar with a 10 inch barrel indoors? It sounds and feels like a tiny grenade going off in front of you. 9mm carbines dont have that drawback. Also, theyre more controllable in rapid fire and wont penetrate barriers as easily.
Inb4 something about 5.56 tumbling after hitting drywall. This is a meme. Its lethal after going through multiple barriers for a much longer range than pistol calibers are.
What i want is a bullpup, integrally suppressed 5.56 carbine
>>30524756
>wont penetrate barriers as easily.
>Inb4 something about 5.56 tumbling after hitting drywall. This is a meme. Its lethal after going through multiple barriers for a much longer range than pistol calibers are.
stop spreading bullshit
http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html
>>30524037
Didnt Russia make a really neat 9mm rifle cartridge similar to 300blk? Subsonic, good range, good ballistics etc?
>>30524723
People are argumentative because you obviously don't have the background to understand what you're talking about (literally mixing up bonded TOTM and M855A1 as if there were similar in composition at all) and you're talking shit to people who are more knowledgeable than you.
>>30524724
I don't own full autos, and that also is not at issue.
>>30524730
Wikipedia says that it does have a pentrator, and I believe that's what I'm seeing in the gel tests.
What I'm looking for is a round that reliably fragments without doing so in the first couple inches of gel.
Or alternatively, one where the fragments retain enough mass to penetrate to a depth of at least 12 inches.
Everyone keeps framing this like it's some kind of argument or something.
>>30524779
7.62x39 is a better ballistic match for .300blk (or really, .300 is a good match for 7.62x39). 9x39 is their bizarre AP option which seems kind of hokey to me. No idea if heavy ass, slow 9mm will really penetrate hard armor.
>>30524787
Mk318 has no penetrator, it's a bonded lead core OTM and copper jacket. M855A1 has a steel penetrator. If you can't even keep these straight you should bow the fuck out of the conversation, because these are literally the most relevant 5.56 loadings for this discussion and if you don't know what they are you, are out of your lane and need to get back to googling.
>>30524780
>People are argumentative because you obviously don't have the background to understand what you're talking about (literally mixing up bonded TOTM and M855A1 as if there were similar in composition at all)
This "argument" started because I said I'd prefer a specific type of wound profile, and wondered if such a round already existed, stating that I didn't know for sure.
Then some anons came in and said a particular round did meet that profile. (specifically relating to fragmentation penetration)
When I said that the fragmentation seemed rather shallow, they insisted I was wrong.
When I politely asked them for more information, they started arguing with me.
>and you're talking shit to people who are more knowledgeable than you.
I'm very seriously questioning that.
>>30524787
it has a solid copper base which will not fragment. you could call that a "penetrator" but nobody does but you and whatever idiot wrote that wikipedia article.
>What I'm looking for is a round that reliably fragments without doing so in the first couple inches of gel.
If you actually did some research instead of looking at a couple probably unrelated ballistics gel images on google then you'd know mk318 mod 0 does exactly that.
>>30524322
>ctrl-f "PDW"
Thank you for fucking pointing this out, holy shit
>>30524827
>Mk318 has no penetrator, it's a bonded lead core OTM and copper jacket.
Uh... okay.
Can you please give me a source on that, because it's the opposite of what I've read.
>If you can't even keep these straight you should bow the fuck out of the conversation
All I've done is ask for information and get yelled at. I'm not trying to be some kind of authority on anything.
Why is this so hard for you people to grasp?
>>30524873
>Why is this so hard for you people to grasp?
Just summerfag cunts anon, don't sweat it
>>30524016
>5.56
>shit ballistics
Now THAT, is a meme.
>>30524835
>If you actually did some research instead of looking at a couple probably unrelated ballistics gel images on google then you'd know mk318 mod 0 does exactly that.
I've tried doing research, but you say it's no good.
If you have info that's better, please just share it already.
I've been asking for sources and info for what feels like forever, and all I've gotten is aggressive arguing.
Look at all those fancy intervention groups who used to operate exclusively with MP5's. What are they using now? SBRs.
SMG is a dead concept.
>>30524918
>SMG is a dead concept.
They have simply been replaced by PDWs.
>>30524918
People still use SMGs.
Also most of those fancy groups never used MP5s as their main weapon.
They'd usually have M4s or some other carbine, and pull out the SMGs for specific ops.
So them using SBRs makes a lot of sense, but doesn't mean the SMG is obsolete.
>>30523998
No, because SMGs are fucking fun.
>>30524901
never mind I just realized you are looking for a round that doesn't exist. something that fragments for 12+ inches with the same effect that M193 does in the first inches? that's literally physically impossible.
>>30524949
*physically impossible in a bullet with the same amount of energy
>>30524873
>Uh... okay.
Can you please give me a source on that, because it's the opposite of what I've read.
This is a terminology issue because marketers call it a "rear penetrator" which is not common terminology. It's code for "this part doesn't frag or expand because it's solid copper." It's not a penetrator in any meaningful sense, unlike the steel tip in M855 or M855A1. Calling that a penetrator is like saying Corbon DPX 115gr 9mm has a penetrator.
>All I've done is ask for information and get yelled at. I'm not trying to be some kind of authority on anything.
>Why is this so hard for you people to grasp?
It's fucking 4chan, an anonymous imageboard. Nobody can keep you straight from the retards talking about how pistol rounds are more dedly than rifle.
>tfw no MP5 10mm
Why live
The Kriss 10mm better take g20 mags. And magpul should start making 30rd gmags
>>30524949
Well I was mainly looking for something that just fragments later in the gel.
Most of these rounds seem to start fragmenting in the first few inches, so the fragments don't reach very far.
It seems like that's kind of overkill for the skinny people problem, and it means the fragments have little chance of reaching organs.
Older rounds that fragmented later didn't do so reliably, so I was wondering if keeping the long neck but decreasing the stability of the bullet would help.
Or if there's anything else that could be done.
>>30523998
I love my Tavor but by the heathen gods the X95 is ugly.
>>30524081
Except 300 BLK is shit in a short barrel. It's made for long guns.
fuck off nigger
>>30524993
if you are shooting people in the high chest like you should be doing there is not much distance to the heart and lungs.
>>30524962
This post would have been much more helpful earlier, and would have saved a lot of pointless bickering.
So it's a pseudo penetrator. Great.
Can we get back to the fragmentation thing now?
>>30524925
The PDW concept has never been adopted by any military, as it was also made obsolete by SBRs. They are seldom used by special groups.
>>30524941
I'm talking about groups like the GIGN, SAS, etc which used nothing but MP5, MP5k, MP5SD. Now they've all switched to G36c and HK416D and SMGs are barely used anymore.
There isn't even a market for SMGs anymore. There are occasionally some new designs that pop up, but neither LE nor militaries are interested, and neither are civilians who don't care for semi-auto pistol carbines.
>>30524996
The second generation of X-95 is top tier looks.
The newest X-95 is top tier uggo.
>>30525015
In a real person in real distanced, yes.
But ballistics gel is not a perfect analogue, and doesn't have skin and bones and stuff in the way.
That's why the FBI recommended 12 inches minimum. It's what is needed to reliably reach organs, and the fragmentation I'm seeing out of these rounds anons are mentioning seem really shallow and not very useful.
Which is why I'm asking about a round that fragments later like older ones, but does so more reliably.
>>30525028
Agreed.
>>30524609
Mobile goalposts v4.2
>>30525020
What the m1 carbine?
>>30525020
>GIGN, SAS, etc which used nothing but MP5, MP5k, MP5SD
I can't say I'm familiar with GIGN, but I know SAS used the M4 and other rifles the vast majority of the time. The MP5 was specifically for very close quarters and room clearing stuff.
>>30525037
you should want fragmentation as soon as possible as long as there is a solid mass capable of breaking the spine that will penetrate at least 12 inches. something that fragments immediately in ballistics gel will generally also fragment immediately in a human while any sort of delayed fragmentation round is essentially a crapshoot.
>>30525074
The problem with immediate fragmentation is that it won't reliably reach organs, which seriously limits lethality, since like 10% of the bullet is actually able to reach that distance.
It's basically living up to the "designed to wound" meme, and that's not desirable.
And yes, I realize later fragmentation WAS a crapshoot, but I'm asking if it's possible to make it more reliable, instead of just shifting the point of fragmentation forwards.
Like what I've been saying about a long necked unstable bullet.
I think SMGs still have a place, especially in law enforcement. For an urban police force, for 99% of the problems they deal with, an AR-15 is overpowered and ill suited for their use. The amount of disorientation on the part of the shooter for using a short barreled intermediate chambered rifle is pretty awful. Imagine firing a 10.5" AR in a brick building with no hearing or eye protection, think if you would actually need all of that muzzle energy anyway and the huge danger the rounds that inevitably miss in an engagement would pose. The only reason why I think short barreled SMGs or semi autos haven't caught on with LEs is because of the lack of any civilian market being built up for them. With ARs any LEO can go into a gun shop and buy one, they're sold in mass so much that they're easy and cheap to get. With a half decent sub machine gun you're probably looking at twice the cost of a decent AR at this point.
>>30525098
Reports about lethality in early use in Vietnam were actually extremely good. They were being used close range with a lighter higher velocity round than what's typically used now. No one used body armor back then and they were using 20" rifles at 150m ranges in jungles, compared to firing at a house 200m away with a 14.5" rifle with a heavier bullet made to penetrate barriers better.
>>30525098
>The problem with immediate fragmentation is that it won't reliably reach organs, which seriously limits lethality, since like 10% of the bullet is actually able to reach that distance.
It's basically living up to the "designed to wound" meme, and that's not desirable.
You are missing the point. Almost everyone involved in pushing the 12" min. pen. standard in gel like Buford Boone, Gary Roberts, etc are all okay with the frag stopping pre 12" and the projectile passing 12". This has proven plenty effective in real world shootings.
>And yes, I realize later fragmentation WAS a crapshoot, but I'm asking if it's possible to make it more reliable, instead of just shifting the point of fragmentation forwards. Like what I've been saying about a long necked unstable bullet.
The point is that delayed frag is not reliable because you may not get enough meat to ensure the depth required. If you get a full frontal shot and get lucky and pass between ribs, then you likely won't even get frag effects at all if something like M855.
>>30525130
>I think SMGs still have a place, especially in law enforcement. For an urban police force, for 99% of the problems they deal with, an AR-15 is overpowered and ill suited for their use. The amount of disorientation on the part of the shooter for using a short barreled intermediate chambered rifle is pretty awful. Imagine firing a 10.5" AR in a brick building with no hearing or eye protection, think if you would actually need all of that muzzle energy anyway and the huge danger the rounds that inevitably miss in an engagement would pose.
That's what eye and earpro is for. You use fucking bangers and shit, right?
>The only reason why I think short barreled SMGs or semi autos haven't caught on with LEs is because of the lack of any civilian market being built up for them.
You don't understand LE procurement.
>>30525167
If that's true, then maybe we should go back to those types of rounds.
>>30525180
>You are missing the point. Almost everyone involved in pushing the 12" min. pen. standard in gel like Buford Boone, Gary Roberts, etc are all okay with the frag stopping pre 12" and the projectile passing 12". This has proven plenty effective in real world shootings.
Why?
For what logical reason would someone think that?
>The point is that delayed frag is not reliable because you may not get enough meat to ensure the depth required. If you get a full frontal shot and get lucky and pass between ribs, then you likely won't even get frag effects at all if something like M855.
Sure, but the depths I see with these other rounds seems like overkill for the problem, and detrimental against people who aren't really skinny.
>>30525229
Well they're not really suited for modern combat much. The US is fighting in mountains and cities, tumbling is all you're really going to get at the ranges people fight at if you want a round that might actually penetrate barriers well.
>>30525229
>Why?
>For what logical reason would someone think that?
Because it works. Remember that rifle rounds have significantly more energy than handgun. Unlike in handgun rounds, the temporary stretch cavity with rifle rounds will cause significant wounding. So it's better for it to frag early and create a large but potentially shallower wound than to risk it never fragging at all (just look at the GP90 garbage to see what happens then). Remember that this isn't birdshot, even if the frag starts at 2" or 3" in, it will be quite effective. You are basically imagining there is a problem when in fact there is none.
>>30525180
>That's what eye and earpro is for. You use fucking bangers and shit, right?
When do you have time to put that on in an LEO type shooting?
>You don't understand LE procurement.
Cost isn't an advantage in government procurement? A huge number of officers buy their own patrol rifle to top it off.
>>30525296
>When do you have time to put that on in an LEO type shooting?
If you are SWAT that's every single hit. If you're a patrol guy, if you have time to go back to your trunk and pop it to grab your carbine and then run inside a building, you have time to throw on Peltors. Or you could just use 16" patrol rifles which are significantly less blasty.
>Cost isn't an advantage in government procurement? A huge number of officers buy their own patrol rifle to top it off.
If you're talking patrol then that makes sense. In the SWAT application, where 5.56 carbines are still dominant, a lot of agencies are buying from manufacturers directly or through regional vendors that can provide logistical support as part of a contract. You don't want to buy the whole teams' guns from your LGS and then find out you can't get armorer support or spare parts. As for cost agency level buying is often more economical than individual purchase, except for the part where you offload the financial burden onto officers instead of providing them the gear they need for their jobs. Either way the trend towards patrol rifles over pistol caliber carbines isn't exactly an AR thing, back in the day there were agencies who went straight to Ruger to get Mini-14s.
>>30525383
The last thing a patrol officer does it get hearing protection when they draw or get a call where they have a rifle. A 16" ar is still way more concussive than a 8" pistol caliber rifle. Maybe something like a 300 blackout AR with subsonics. Even still with the argument of economics, because of that civilian market, it's way cheaper for an LEO to buy ARs from S&W or someone than it is to buy something like a Sig MPX. Even though for most police agencies I'd say that the MPX is better suited for their uses. Most police shootings, if not almost all of them in urban areas are within 50 meters, so you're not really getting a whole lot of an advantage with a 5.56 carbine vs the drawbacks of size and disorientation.
>>30525824
>The last thing a patrol officer does it get hearing protection when they draw or get a call where they have a rifle.
In my opinion that's not exactly a smart call. It doesn't take that much time. and if you're doing a deliberate search the mics in electronic hearing pro can be beneficial.
>A 16" ar is still way more concussive than a 8" pistol caliber rifle.
Agree but there's obviously a tradeoff in terminal effectiveness especially in situations that involve intermediate barriers like cars.
>Even still with the argument of economics, because of that civilian market, it's way cheaper for an LEO to buy ARs from S&W or someone than it is to buy something like a Sig MPX.
Fair enough.
>Even though for most police agencies I'd say that the MPX is better suited for their uses. Most police shootings, if not almost all of them in urban areas are within 50 meters, so you're not really getting a whole lot of an advantage with a 5.56 carbine vs the drawbacks of size and disorientation.
IMO trying to drive every purchasing decision off average shooting distance is a big mistake, because if you get unlucky and have to contend with a prepared or well equipped criminal, or multiple such criminals, you will have a bad day. You want overmatch, not just parity. If someone were to carry out a Mumbai/Paris/Westgate mall style attack you will want long guns with a flat trajectory and good terminal ballistics. There are also plenty of LE shootings in which suspects have rifle caliber long guns. It's just that if the cops get lucky and nobody else gets hurt, then nobody picks it up and the details won't make the news.
>>30525976
I don't think in a mumbai/paris style of attack a patrol officer with an AR is even really prepared to deal with that, something like that is more of a SWAT team job, which have the ability to choose their equipment based on the threat anyway. In that kind of attack anyway, if they had rifle plates, there wouldn't be much of a difference in effect between handgun rounds and intermediate cartridges anyway. I'm talking on a patrol officer level, you can't practically equip every officer for a terrorist attack. Though honestly SWAT teams IMO are pretty poorly suited for those types of attacks also. The US needs something like what Brazil and South Africa does with specialized patrolling units. Vs a swat team that needs to be organized, suited up, briefed, and then sent in an hour into the event.
>>30524016
Troll much mate?
Even with the decreased performance of 5.56mm in shorter barrels for accurate long range use, it's effective long range still excedes pistol rounds and in close combat 5.56 has way more velocity and cover penetrating power than 9mm.
>>30523998
Piztol caliber SMG's have kind of been obsolete since the late 90's.
You only see military SMG's being handed down to local police in europe.
South America, Africa and Middle East most cops have AK's.
North America most cops have AR's
>>30524347
Said none of the dead negroids in Chiraq.
>>30524058
Name a first world military that issuses SMG's and Bolt action rifles in favor and in mass versus assualt or battle rifles in the past two decades.
Go on do it...a real military that's actually seen some extended combat and not just trying to squeeze every bit of use out of old WW2 or cold war stockpiles with reserve or vondcript units or is simply a functional yet ceremonial weapon.
Show me one person who would rather have an MP40 over an MK-18 as their one and only when on patrol or guarding a check point.
>>30523998
FULL SIZE SMG'S AS A PRIMARY WEAPON HAS BEEN DEAD SINCE THE 70'S MILITARY WISE AND PHASED OUT POLICE WISE IN THE 90'S.
However if your are suggesting that soldiers be all issued a SIDE ARM like a sub compact pistol that has full auto...then yeah SMG's sort of exist, but presidential body guard with an Uzi, Styer, MAC or HK MP7 is the snowflake unicorn compared to entire battalions armed with assault rifles.
>>30524070
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_AUG
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IWI_Tavor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA80
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FAMAS
Compared to standard/front operating systems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_SCAR
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G36
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Galil
Read before you talk out of your ass.
>>30523998
Military?
More or less.
Police and Spec Ops?
No and maybe respectively.
no
go shoot suppressed bull pup with subsonic 5.56 and see how effective it is
>>30524433
So, as a defense/backup pistol a 9mm running straight nofrills fmj is a decent way to go if I want lethality without overpenetration?
