Shotgun or automatic carbine for room clearing?
Also, happy Canada day.
>>30481679
Shotgun, of course. This isn't (at least I hope not) a child's forum. A shotgun. Always a shotgun for room clearing.
Are you trolling?
>>30481679
Why not both?
There's nothing even remotely happy about Canada Day.
>>30481710
This guy
![7497d1219498680-buckshot-vs-slug-00-10-yards-copy[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/9lEWgfa.jpg "7497d1219498680-buckshot-vs-slug-00-10-yards-copy[1].jpg")
>>30481697
Consider that 00 doesn't spread very much indoors. If you miss and wing him, you're screwed for another half second. Unless you carry a semi auto shotgun. >>30481710
With a full auto m4, it seems you could spray and not-have-to pray because it's so close.
Also, you wouldn't have to carry another heavy gun or an under barrel attachment.
>>30481744
*Missing at that range because you're under stress, he has good cover, poor visibility, or he's moving at a high angular velocity b/c he's so close.
>>30481679
Subgun obviously
>>30481697
>>30481710
It's a bit different of a scenerio, but why would an agency carry a mac-10 or the like instead of an SBS?
>>30481697
>>30481710
I came to the conclusion that a carbine, preferably pistol caliber is optimal years ago when had the chance to try out an MP-5 from a friend LEO, the accuracy, the control and handiness is beyond
Sadly, the "The-Shotgun-is-the-best-weapon-for-home-defense" argument has been so ingrained in the gun community that is ridiculous. Even semi-auto SMG is better.
>>30482410
A shotgun is better. I apologize fore crushing your heart. BTDT
>>30482529
>fore
I'm a fucking retard
>>30482529
>>30482529
What brings you to this conclusion? Is it the massive amount of "knock down power" as compared to a SMG or assault rifle? I personally feel that would be offset by the lack of capacity and larger size. Not that I'm saying you are wrong, just wanted to know what your reasoning is.
>>30482529
>>30482529
What brings you to this conclusion? Is it the massive amount of "knock down power" as compared to a SMG or assault rifle? I personally feel that would be offset by the lack of capacity and larger size. Not that I'm saying you are wrong, just wanted to know what your reasoning is.
>>30482410
>>30482529
You are both wrong. The only logical conclusion for close quarters or home defense is a flamethrower.
My understanding of the shotgun is that the spread isn't to ensure a hit to the target, but a hit to something vital on the target.
I only talked to one person on swat. Their team has an SMG first in, followed by a shotgunner. The rest of the team has AR-15 rifles.
>>30482623
>muh capacity
The lack of capacity is offset by the fact that, at close range, 12 gauge buckshot removes meat and bones. Your submachine gun is a pistol shooting pistol ammo which does pistol-like things in the body (i.e. not very much absent a CNS hit or a psychological stop). A high center-mass shot is going to insert a massive wound channel into the target, leading to rapid loss of blood pressure and the resulting incapacitation. Very, very few shootings with a shotgun require more than one round fired. Those that do tend to require two.
You can pump a shotgun pretty fast with a bit of practice. I get about .3s splits with my 590. It's all about your form and having a stock that fits you.
Larger size than what? That SBR that you don't own? A shotgun presents roughly the same profile as a 16" AR-15 or a pistol at full extension when shouldered. Pic related.
Finally, your room clearing fantasy is just that: a fantasy. You're not going house to house in Fallujah and your engagement distances inside the home are at best 15yds (most of them significantly closer). You're not in a house one minute, in a 300m long street the next, and in a 50m wide courtyard the minute after. You're in your bedroom or your hallway, and if you've got any sense about you, you're going to stay put.
>>30484010
neither of you are wrong. a Shotgun, despite how much /k/ hates the term, does have stopping power. its not because the shotgun is more likely to hit a target, but because it is more likely to hit vital organs. the fact that you are producing multiple 'wound vector' that all spread out from the same area means you have produced a disproportionately large amount of tissue disruption.
HOWEVER: a shotgun in order to be legally compliant is very unwieldy in doors. if i was sheltering in place in my room, no problem. but if i was leaving my room to secure my house because i needed to protect my kids, not so great.
The other problem is that buckshot is very unsafe for penetration. its going to disperse in a wall in every which direction with no way of knowing which way its going and without losing any momentum when passing through drywall.
Birdshot should be counted out. no it won't overpenetrated drywall, but it won't penetrate people either. the wounds LOOK bad, becuase it blasts out such a large chunk of flesh, but the shot will lose most energy in the muscle tissue, and if the target is fat, it might not even make it through the adipose tissue.
The other concern is racking the pump. in a stressful situation its pretty easy to fuck up and short stroke.
So bottom line is if you can shelter in place go ahead and get a shotgun. but if you have to clear your house id go against it. If you can get semi-shotgun thats the length of your average carbine and you don't have walls made of drywall or don't live in appartment/duplex or have people in other rooms, then shotgun all the way. but then you have reliability issues that pistol carbines don't, and why clear a house if you don't have people in other rooms you need to protect?
>>30484010
>>30485019
OP here, I should have been clearer perhaps, some are talking about pistol calibers but I surely a rifle caliber FA carbine would address the penetration problem.
If you can train to .3 seconds without short stroking that's swell, but in comparison you have 800 rpm aka .075 seconds with zero training.
And by all means HD is it's own question as you shouldn't be roomclearing in such a situation at all. But eventually someone like the police must, and they must have a weapon to do so.
>>30485162
are you talking about military or law enforcement?
>>30485327
For simplicity's sake, LE with any Form 5 transfers they need.
I'm cool with either, but I like boomstick.
>>30485425
I just find it ironic that a shotgun is one of the easiest guns to get in any part of the world while a submachine gun is usually one of the hardest despite them both being about the same in terms of energy expended.
>>30485019
9mm can easily penetrate 10 drywall dividers without losing killing power. A shotgun does have spread so you would think it would have a higher chance of friendly fire through walls, but people mag dump when in a defense situation so you have a lot more 9mm rounds flying around than the 2-3 shells you fired off in comparison.
>>30481679
WTF is going on in that pic OP?
youll make yourself dizzy from the concussion of a full auto carbine indoors
>>30486209
See filename
>>30485019
As for unwieldy, I find an 18.5"bbl 590 with a Magpul stock (shorter LOP) to be very comparable to my 16" ARs. You really only see dramatic differences when you start talking SBRs. Having said that, I'd much prefer a 14" gun.
Working the pump is a matter of practice and fit. If you've got the typical 14" LOP, unless you've got rather long arms, you're going to have problems while maintaining a stance that lets you control recoil.
Overpenetration is somewhat moot if you hit the person you aim at. Human bodies do a great job of slowing down the pellets (as well as expanded pistol ammo, while we're at it) to the point where they either get captured under the skin where the exit wound should be, end up in the target's clothing, or fall to the ground a few feet away. Going all Way of the Gun and shit? Yes, you'll have problems.
As for overpenetration IRL, I once witnessed an ND with #1 buckshot. The dude fired the shotgun inside an apartment at his bedroom wall, which faced the exterior porch. The buckshot penetrated the layer of drywall, the insulation, the outside layer of siding, sent chunks of siding and insulation flying everywhere (which is what I saw -- was in the living room by the porch), and embedded itself in the siding on the opposite side of the porch, about 12 feet away from the wall he shot. All 16 pellets were accounted for, landing in about a 9" area. The siding was about 3/4" thick.
>>30485162
Nobody serious trains to shoot full auto anymore. Everybody -- from SOF to LE to private trainers -- uses rapid, aimed semi-auto fire. So your 800RPM is moot. "Zero training" makes it even more so. Even an MP-5 -- which is among the easiest I've fired -- will run away from you if you don't know what you're doing.
A .223/5.56 will be comparatively better depending on the load, punching through less walls. The bonded barrier-blind loads that are popular right now? They're designed to stay together while punching through walls.
>>30481679
Shotgun, for a couple of reasons:
1. A cheap ass shotgun is going to be much more reliable than a cheap ass handgun, especially a pump.
2. Variability of Ammuntion; I keep my HD shotgun loaded with 2 rounds of buck followed by a slug and then 2 rounds of jungle buck (5 00 pellets and a 1/2 oz. slug). That way if the first couple rounds of buck don't fuck somebody up (unlikely) then the follow up will murder the shit out of them.
3. Shotguns have a lot of general utility. A cheap mooseburger can be a home defense gun with one barrel and a hunting gun with another, and at a whole lot cheaper than buying 2 or more different weapons.
Overall shotguns are just better in nearly every way from a civilian standpoint, and are still pretty good from a military or LEO standpoint.
>>30484010
>
Added pic related for you anon. My M4 and saga 12 length.
>muh unwieldy shotgun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxQNYPYFq1c
>>30488746
a saiga is not a pump action
>>30489010
Who the fuck stated pump only? It throws 9 00 buck rounds per trigger pull, what's the difference?
>>30481679
>room clearing
why the fuck are you room clearing? and if you really need to "clear rooms", you best not be doing it alone.
fuck this hollywood hd shit. if you are in a hd situation, bunker up, point any gun at chokepoint, and wait.
i would choose my shotgun to do this.
>>30489038
the 'unwieldy' was referring to pump actions which tend to be quite long. if you have a shotgun the length of a carbine, then go nuts
>>30488174
>2. Variability of Ammuntion; I keep my HD shotgun loaded with 2 rounds of buck followed by a slug and then 2 rounds of jungle buck (5 00 pellets and a 1/2 oz. slug). That way if the first couple rounds of buck don't fuck somebody up (unlikely) then the follow up will murder the shit out of them.
I'd like to expand on this a bit.
Shotgun slugs made out of 3/4" lengths of steel #5 rebar glued into the plastic wad to drag-stabilize it sort of like a set of fins: good idea of bad idea? There's some stuff out there like wild boar that seems to be pretty hard to kill. There's a video floating around Youtube of a guy shooting a wild boar in the head with a .44 Mag revolver and a hollowpoint bullet, and the bullet pancakes out and flattens against the skull just under the skin and fails to penetrate into the brain. I'm thinking a hunk of rebar traveling at somewhere over the speed of sound might work a little better.
![the-raid-poster[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/6hT0hXp.jpg "the-raid-poster[1].jpg")
>>30489066
>>30481679
Better question: if you're doing cordon and search in an apartment block, do you give everyone in the squad masterkeys, or just the door guy?
Basically is it worth the extra weigh to have a shotgun vs just using your m4?
this guy >>30484010
says just have one shotgun
>>30489629
shotgun for one person, as he will be your squads specialist and probably the one that kicks in the door. everyone else should have some sort of carbine, be it an m4 or whathaveyou or an smg
>>30489259
just cut fins in it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGzgbXCrWHQ
