So I'm not sure if any of you guys have heard that the European Union wants to raise it's own army. Aside from the political aspects of all this, what do you guys think the capability of such a military would be?
Considering GDP and Population (minus the UK of course):
Would a unified European military rival the United States?
What possibility is there that they create an oceangoing fleet to project their power?
How long do you think it'll be until it gets bogged down in yet another Russian winter?
Given that the European Union has roughly the same GDP and population as the US, and unlike China they have a similar level of scientific output, they could raise an army on par with the US if they wanted to.
They never will, because it costs money, and because Europeans can't have real militaries without acting like chimpanzees.
>>30460733
I would imagine they are posturing against UK for noping out.
>Rival US
Hehehe thanks for the giggle.
>>30460773
Pretty sure the EU had a higher GDP than America, although idk if that's still the case with Brexit.
>>30460733
Every nation in the EU doesn't take its army seriously. Most of them don't even fund it to the NATO minimum of 2% of GDP. And now that the UK is gone they will be missing a significant portion of anything that mattered in terms of power projection.
They would need to legitimately RAISE an army in order to be any kind of threat to anyone. There's just nothing there right now.
Doesn't matter though, they only want to use the army to control the population anyway.
>>30460786
Yeah but they'd never agree to be fully autonomous. They'd maintain their own militaries.
Idea is foolhardy, this is what treaties and being allies is for.
>>30460786
The US runs what is effectively the European military right now via NATO.
>>30460786
With Brexit, the GDP is about on par more or less. Their population is also considerably greater as well.
But... >>30460763
Makes a good point too. There hasn't been a formidable European military power since Germany lost at Stalingrad.
>>30460801
That's part of the reason they feel like they want an official "Euro-Only" army. They said they can't rely on the United States and NATO for their security anymore. You're probably right too... they want to use the military to kill off the rayciss white folks and hand the continent over to Kebab.
>>30460810
Nope, they're talking about a central governing power as well to control the military. I guess that would mean the units would be conscripted rather than recruited... I'm not really quite sure how they'll make it work honestly.
>>30460733
Yea that pic you posted pretty much sums it up. Just Russia piling it on and trashing the EU with sheer numbers. Russia doesn't the "Technological Advantage" kind of army. They have the "keep throwing different shaped scrap metal at it until it dies" army. The EU wouldn't hold out, assuming they could keep the confusion between commanding different soldiers of different nationalities with different jurisdictions. Holy shit it'd be hilarious.
>>30460898
Russia would have to play it a little smarter than that though honestly... their total population is about one quarter that of the rest of Europe's.
Then again, I'm sure they've got an ally or two in their back pocket somewhere.
>>30460733
It would be Austria-Hungary 2.0 a.k.a. complete multikulti shit
>>30460994
Europe is a population turned into cucks. A bunch of hungry slavs would plow right throw them
EUROPEANS ---AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH -
COMPLLEEEETTTTTTEEEEEE FUCCCCKINGGG KEKS OF THE WORLDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD.
>>30461210
Some of them might even enjoy that actually.
>>30460733
>640x399
Dude.
>>30460733
IT BEGINS
>>30460892
Most EU members do not want this, Almost every country in the EU wants to maintain it's own Army.
Wars between 1st world countries is impossible.
Their armies only exist to 1 attack third world countries 2 support terorists and rebels in other countries 3 enrich certain manufacturing sectors
Europes current armies can do this already now. No need to create some monolithic super structure.
If they did it though, it would be an update of NATO. US would always be in control of it.
>>30463129
I see it more or less as a tool to control EU population and nationalistic tendencies which are not in line with Brussels view of a one european superstate.
With this proposed gun ban which is coming this fall and post-brexit tightenig screws it should be apparent even without tinfoil hat on your head.
>>30460733
there aren't all that many weapon manufacturers in this world left, so gear will more become similar between western countries without political union.
>>30460733
>army made up of recruits from countries that historically, culturally, and traditionally HATE each other
Great idea
>>30460733
I'll just explain you something because you might not understand it.
EU won't have effective "army" on its own for several reasons:
>equipment is not standardised(literally only small-arms use standard ammunition, then you have an ammunition barrier between "old" and "new" members where "new" members use post-soviet artillery, tank guns, rockets etc. while "old" use NATO ones)
>doctrines are non-standard(which means that for example British Army, or German Army expects different things from a tank than French Army) which will hinder any attempts at standardising, then you have the "little" things like approach to garrisons - Poles have like 20 of them(with separate administration, depots etc.) while Germany has 2(with integrated administration depots etc.) and restructuring all of this shit will take literal decades
>you can't avoid political background - country which design gets to be "standard-issue" tank, fighter or helicopter will profit a lot on it(as well as their armament industry) while the rest will lose their specific armament industry's branch so you can bet on heavy opposition from Czechs and likely whole Visegrad group(since we all know that the "best" equipment will coincidentally be German)
>there is a language barrier, like it or not
Therefore it will be bureaucratic mess build on top of logistical mess that may turn into working fighting force in 50 years. In the 1990's if you'd tell me to ignore all those political issues related to preservation of armament industry in some countries - I would agree with you, they would build very worthwhile army by 2020 or so. However today, in 2016 with tensions everywhere and a war just east of EU borders it is stupid idea that will backfire very quickly.
How on Earth would they decide what equipment to use?
>>30460733
Not gonna happen any time soon.
Look at the previous attempts: Eurocorps, Eurofor or the WEU.
There are bilateral agreements, like the Dutch-German Corps, the French-German Brigade, or the recent French-British treaty, but anything more centralized would mean renoncing to some sovereignty, and there isn't a country in Europe that wants that.
Also, since that thread is fuill of trolls, some education:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Policy
>>30460733
Why bother having this thread, you're never going to get a sensible answer on /k/ about anything Europe related, its just going to devolve into a 'hurrr caliphate' thread within a dozen posts or so.
>>30463463
Let Sprey choose
>>30460733
They already have one and it's called isis.
Nobody would willingly fight for this shithole.
If they can't even trust us with guns I'd like to see what happens when they hand a group of conscripts guns and say "Now go kill your family"
So will they divide units by nationality?
Does this mean the UK can create a new Commonwealth alliance?
>>30463422
only Balkanites hate each other
>>30463683
so the eu army really does bring bring the us army to its limits
>>30460733
The point of EU army is to suppress any form of rebellion against EU ebil gubbmit. After Brexit officials realized that other countries might want to get out too. And since they could always buy politicians and during protesting cops would join in and army wouldn't attack it's own people, EU army is the choice. To pacify French you're not going to use French Army, you're going to use German brigade, to pacify Poland you're not going to use Polish Army but French, German or which ever country's brigade.
>inb4 >>/pol/
We don't need EU army, what we need is EU countries start increasing Military budget. That'd help the NATO, and make people quiet about Russia boogey man.
t. Europoor
>>30463902
>After Brexit officials realized that other countries might want to get out too.
Not even the UK even wants out of the EU.
>>30463714
>If they can't even trust us with guns I'd like to see what happens when they hand a group of conscripts guns and say "Now go kill your family"
So, if they would give you free and cheap access to weapons you would kill your family?
>>30463915
Every faggot crying that UK should've stayed is like pic related. Don't know jack shit about economis. I mean people think that when indexes go down on the stock market nobody makes moeny while a fuck tone of people made a lot of moeny on brexit. UK can do free trade deals and still be a normal if not better country but young libshits who have never worked a single day in a factory or a filed are blaming people who worked their entire lives.
>>30463915
>Not even the UK even wants out of the EU.
Not like the majority voted very recently to approve the leaving of it or anything.
Netherlands also had a 58% Leave result informal vote. Even the German AfD is saying they want Germany out of the EU and is growing in popularity.
>>30463915
yeah, that must be why a majority voted to GTFO
>"Immigrant" detected
>>30463922
It's pretty simple. Even the best-case Norway deal would be like what they have now just worse because they would accept everything the EU decides.
And not having access to the single market would be suicidal.
So article 50 will never be triggered.
>>30460733
>Rival the US
I don't think you realize just how much we spend on defense, budget cuts aside.
We might not outnumber you, but goddamn are we the most effective military man-for-man besides maybe Israel. Those fuckers are insane.
>>30463945
>most effective military
>>30463884
yeah, keep saying that to yourself cuck
>>30463947
>lemme tell ya 'bout your continent
>>30463884
Spain-Portugal
France-UK
France-Germany
Denmark-Sweden
Italy-Albania
Greece-Bulgaria
Romania-Hungary
>>30463946
Name a single other navy that comes close in the modern age.
>"B-But only ground war matters!"
Then enjoy never getting to leave your continent or cross any sort of open water. If you don't have a navy before the war starts, the USAF will stop you from building one, because the US still retains a good amount of strategic bombing ability. And if you don't have one, you actually cannot, in any feasible manner, threaten the US with anything but long-range flights.
You would always be on the defensive. Nobody can threaten America's heartland, because every country in the Americas is completely reliant on us, and maintains good relations, so we don't have to spend a dollar on walls or shelters. It'd take a large coalition of forces moving across not only oceans patrolled by us, but our allies, to even begin to make America worry about war coming to its doorstep, and there's just nobody who can really threaten that. Not unless you think China and Russia suddenly conjured up an invisible navy no one knows about, and are up each other's asses.
>>30460733
Too little, too late.
An army should had been there from the getgo, along with full federalization. The EU doesn't have the backbone for real hard power; and it failed when it tried to paw Ukraine, it fails with Greece and Italy and Spain, it fails with the immigrant crisis from somehow being so rich they can't handle something akin to the great lakes crisis 20 years ago and allowing member states to close their borders and flip their nose at brussels
The only thing that makes the world go round is hard fucking force. Soft power and decentralization ends up with shit results, see Spain and the Articles of the Confederation and etc.
The EU, if it survives this, needs to integrate, then it can think about an 'army' or anything like that. And odds are, it won't survive this. It's an embarrassment and a failure, even if not on paper, it is in the public mind and confidence.
>>30463975
Ok, we get it, you are American
>>30463988
Which is impossible, it never was possible.
The countries of Europe will never accept a fully integrated union for good reason.
>>30463974
>>30463998
>triggered
What's the point of EU army when one of its smaller members(like Estonia) will get invaded by Russia and the Germans will be all like "LOL TAKE THEM, JUST SELL US YOUR GAS"?
>>30460786
EU has more room for growth too because half of it is poor slavshit cunts
>>30463044
>Enforcer Corps
Sounds pretty Roman Legion tbqh
>>30463352
Yep... Seems like Roman Empire 2.0
>>30460801
this. Look at the UN and NATO forces and you have a good idea of how an EU "army" would look.
Likely this is an attempt to gain a foothold for future political posturing....as in "if you leave the EU our Army will crush you." It will be thr implied threat of force.
ohhhh and to control the population.
>See the history of the CSA and you will see why they want an EU controlled Army
>See the history of the USSR post collapse and you will see why they want an Army
>see the rise of Hitler and the Nazi party to see what will happen.
>>30463620
also just in the beginning close partnership between german and dutch navies
EU army is retarded.
Forced NATO force standards would work better.
Force the slavshit countries and ex USSR states to upgrade to 120mm smoothbores, adopt NATO standard firearms and so on.
That's ALL they need to do.
Or have a EU NATO standard with heavily subsidised military production to replace the old shit in places like Poland, which is slowly trying to adopt NATO standards.
Make the EU NATO standard tech privately available to EU NATO members for free so they can just rejig their entire military industry with no research.
The problem for alot of nations though is air forces. Because the difference between what Britain and France can produce and deploy is VASTLY out of the range that Poland and so on can afford. Fortunately it's not too big an issue since airforces tend to not be NATO based but the EU fucks everything up when it comes to politics and always has.
That's why livestock is now near impossible to raise in Europe since the only feed legal happens to be soya based. Instead of just saying 'you can't use this' they go 'you can only use this' and that's a dumb standard for capitalism.
That would be why an EU military would collapse. Trying to force a country like Romania to buy German tanks and French planes would totally bankrupt it. It's why NATO tends to be 'spend X amount of your economy and these are your preferred standards but don't worry too much if you can't get them'.
>>30463975
>France and UK
>hate each other
Not really. We are just mad bantz crew.
Germany and UK hate one another in general but most shit talk with France happens to be pure banter and we are actually closer than you'd think.
Same as most anglosphere nations and how we tend to interact.
If we hated France, we wouldn't have been allies in 2 World Wars and military allies for the past 140 years.
>>30463975
>when u get ur education from /int/
>>30464230
>thats a dumb standard for capitalism
>capitalism
>talking about the EU
You are pretty much correct, But you are thinking outside the scope of what they want. They want an Army under EU political control. Under your NATO model, country A can say "fuck that we are sitting this out" and argue the legality of the military action under intrrnational law. Or worse refuse to send troops to an on going battle to protect their own country instead (save the city, but lose the war) like happened during the US Civil war (confederate side). But under EU political cntrol, the Army is controlled by only the EU rulers. Its a step closer to a one government Europe or if you buy into the New World Order conspiracy (which I do) it woukd be a step closer to a one world government.
Hahahaha no
The US, Russian, and maybe Chinese are the only serious militaries left on earth. The European armies of North West Europe are a total joke and basically just provide security internally. Occasionally they will go overseas to back up the US, like the Brit heroes did in Afghanistan, but I consider this akin to a small child going outside with their father, doing some small task under supervision, then saying "Look I helped!". Poland has a fairly respectable military due to fear of Russia and could probably reverse blitzkrieg Germany if they wanted to.
But it won't happen any time soon. You would have to change public opinion, standardize equipment and language, and produce the funding needed. The armies of Europe would pretty much just hold out until America gets there anyway.
Also unless there is a major shift in world events, war nowadays is just something that you inflict on dirty brown and yellow people to secure national interests of a first world country.
>>30464019
Agreed. The best chance is a regional bloc, in tandem with other blocs; not much else
>>30460733
I guess it depends on how badly people want to die for Germany.
why does a free trade agreement need an army?
>>30466343
Because Russia.
Now quit questioning our decisions you racist, sexist, homophobic, islamophobic, intolerant, trigger-inducing, cis white scum.
>>30462150
>>30461210
says the guys from the us. lol you're no better than us.
>>30463975
cringy as fuck post, holy shit.
>>30460733
>crazy German dictator wants everyone under her rule
So glad we're leaving this crazy """union"""
>>30466343
A free trade agreement at the cost of your national sovereignty
>>30460733
A European army and a European constitution should be real for 15 years or so. But instead of doing important stuff the EU bureaucrats made a 360 long directive about how cucumbers should look like (authentic), and they debate about how much strawberry should be in strawberry jam.
