Black Hawk Down
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You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
This was a prisoner grab, right? As long as you surprised the VIPs at the meeting place, you could do anything you needed to bring them back.
The way I figure, as soon as his snatch force had boots on the ground, Garrison should have rolled the 10th Mountain (with or without the Malays and the Pakis). No reason at all to keep things light after the initial assault.
>>30338555
>No reason at all to keep things light after the initial assault
But there was reason. A large force would have just moved slower and elicited a larger response faster. The idea was to be in and out with the Somalis only finding out as the packs were in tow. It was dumb luck that they were able to scramble a defense/destroy a bird in the first 30 minutes.
Imo, if they rolled with a night time raid, shit would of been better. Ask mcknight said in the movie which makes sense " No Spectre gunships, daylight instead of night, late afternoon when they're all fucked up on Khat, only part of the city Aidid can mount a serious counter-attack on short notice..."
>>30338555
It's more that Delta can't do anything right--see Eagle Claw and Urgent Fury.
>>30338672
Every unit has its share of failures. Especially SEAL teams.
>>30338645
Pretty sure if the targets were gonna be there at night theyd do it at night, right bro?
>>30338672
More of less the good idea fairy running amuck at higher command.
>>30338672
Please tell us more about how much you'd like to think you know from your mother's basement, anon
>>30338713
Depends, part of pvt Murphys law.
>>30338672
>Eagle Claw & Urgent Fury
Literally both happened to faulty intel and pilot related issues
>>30338672
>It's more that Delta can't do anything right--see Eagle Claw and Urgent Fury.
Please tell us what decisions Delta made, that caused the failure of Eagle Claw.
>>30338672
agreed
basically the only SOF that kept the city under control was the US Marine Core
We just need to summon vining for this thread....
>>30338846
Nice bait, anon
>>30338846
>Core
Close but no Bueno
The mission was a success technically, but the Somalis learned the Americans mission plan since it was repeated over and over again. So on this particular mission the Somalis were ready and knew what to expect. So ultimately it was the task force leadership that failed. Plus having big and slow helicopters loiter around for sniper support isn't the best idea.
>>30338704
>>30338724
>>30338738
>>30338762
>>30338807
The only thing the US military did right in the past 70 years was Desert Storm. Prove me wrong.
>>30339042
What they should have done was, as soon as stuff went to shit, they should have bugged out. Fucked off. The ground convoy did get shot up but they did get back. Everyone should have taken their lead. Fuck the helicopter crews, they weren't worth everyone else that got killed. Better to lose one fucking chopper than get the rest of the unit shot up rescuing the couple of guys that survived the crash.
>>30339074
You said Delta.
>>30339118
Which is part of the military, dumbass.
>>30339074
Shock and awe against a war wary opponent. (Iraq and Iran war) plus the tech we had against them. Also the gulf had politic-ing behind it because saddam was using chemical warfare against the kurds. Gothic serpent and gulf war is day and night comparison.
>>30339115
Would you want to be left to those animals? They did the right thing making sure everyone got out.
>>30339115
Unfortunately, there is a creed in the bat, and in alot of special operations communities that state, "no man left behind. " alive or dead.
>>30339074
It's more political faults than military faults in recent conflicts. You have to play by Washington DC's rules.
>>30339115
Absolutely not.
It's like that one operator says in the movie: In combat, the only thing that matters is the guy next to you. If you bug out, you take away the only thing that matters to the soldiers under your command.
Congratulations, you've just destroyed the morale of your unit and undermined the principle of esprit de corps that underpins the entire western military culture. Your shit will contaminate and weaken your armed forces for another hundred years.
>>30339125
You said Delta fucked up Eagle Claw. Explain.
>>30339185
This.
They used psych ops, letting Durant know he was not going to be left behind. Even if it's a shred of hope, it's better than none.
>>30339185
So they all feel better afterwards when they're like "You know, a dozen of us may have gotten killed to pull one guy out of the wreckage, but this is totally better. I feel much better about how that turned out." Cuz losing a couple guys in a chopper that you probably didn't know is better than losing even more guys in your own unit.
>>30339159
If they're seriously stupid enough to throw themselves into a meatgrinder to bring back an already dead corpse, they all deserve to be killed, because that's just stupidity.
The WW2 guys would be shaking their heads going "Are you fucking stupid son?" at the thought of risking your life for a dead body.
>>30339235
Which would you rather have, option 1, making sure all (deceased , wounded, etc ) gets home or option 2, dragging your body for propaganda. .....
>>30338645
>>30338749
What kind of retarded warlord calls a meeting with his lieutenants at 1 am?
>>30339042
Not actually true. Prior to this they did a variety of operational plans to include convoy interdiction directly off of helis and DA with helicopter insert and extract.
>>30339223
Except a dozen guys didn't get killed, 6 rangers and 5 Delta guys died in the actual battle. A couple days later a sixth Delta operator was killed in the luckiest mortar shot by any Somali in the history of mortars. Also what kind of self respecting SOF unit is going to fuck off and leave their aircrews behind? Have fun getting them to come pick your ass up when you're taking fire if they know you'll leave them to hang if they get shot down.
>>30339267
And preventing that propaganda is worth the expenditure of multiple lives?
>>30339294
Well, it turned out that the propaganda factor and the public perception killed the success of the overall mission, so...
>>30339290
It's called tracking/ surveillance "Oh hey let's have a meeting. K thanks bye, go your way". TRACK them and then you do your hvt raid at night. bat boys did it all the time when I was in Iraq 2006-2007
>>30339290
Those guys plus the crew of the second blackhawk that got shot down cuz they stuck around instead of leaving.
I'd sure hope the reliability of the 160th Squadron is not based on whether they'll never be left behind. If this were WW3, they'd be doing high-risk shit behind Russian and/or Chinese lines where there's no time or room for dicking around picking people out of crashed helicopters. If their ability to do their job is reliant on being saved whenever one of their choppers goes down no matter what the circumstance, what kind of selfish fucks are they?
Then again, it's been so long since air crew and pilots have fought a real enemy they don't understand what it means to really lose personnel and deal with it.
>>30339294
It lets people know in the future they better watch out.
Sort of like some sf groups have a reputation of killing absolutely everybody no matter what so when people find out they are coming after them it demoralises them.
see SAS people dragging terrorists back into building to kill them after they surrendered.
>>30339322
Why the fuck were they even there int he first place?
>>30339354
Is this true? Because that's metal as fuck
>>30339354
Well given that was the ultimate message to America in the end anyway, was getting more people killed necessary since it's not like they forestalled the backlash form the debacle.
>>30339329
And how do you expect to track them when you don't have predators? Just fly around in a fucking AH-6?
>>30339344
Back in the Vietnam days when aircrews went down all the time, SOF guys still wanted to carry out POW rescue missions or QRF missions to secure the pilots. Sometimes it's not a matter of strict practicality, there's no way to realistically and accurately measure the impact of propaganda vs the potential for casualties during a rescue mission. You just gotta go with what you think is right and count on your training to carry you through.
It's also not really a question of the 160th's reliability. Considering the number of ruined marriages and heli crashes those guys get into, if they were overly worried about themselves they would have quit long ago.
>>30339370
Just think about the shitstorm that would have occurred if it came out that American troops left other troops behind to be captured by the enemy.
>>30339431
That shitstorm would have been based on stupidity. People wouldn't understand/care that more people would have gotten killed had they done so, because most people are too emotional to make life-death calculus.
>>30339466
A shitstorm is still a shitstorm so far as the Army's concerned. Would much rather get in trouble for trying to do right by people rather than get in trouble for ditching them.
>>30339484
No wonder they put out propaganda in WW2. The public was probably too fickle and squeamish to accept the the truth about the actual costs of winning the war.
I'm honestly concerned now-days that if WW3 started the US would end up giving up halfway to victory because the public would be complaining that too many people were dying, because they can't hide combat losses anymore.
>>30339431
By helo " target is traveling in a bongo truck." Really? Is it that hard. Jesus, figure the kids these days would already be in bed.
humint,
if you don't know what that is without using google, gtfo.
>>30339294
>And preventing that propaganda is worth the expenditure of multiple lives?
All day every day.
It literally happened, anon. Literal Navy SEAL snipers volunteered for a suicide mission defending a downed SOF helo pilot.
Are you a woman, anon? Because this is exactly the kind of thing a woman would not understand.
>>30339466
> Send humans into battle
> Refuse to consider human emotion in your warfighting calculus
... And that's why she stabbed you.
>>30339294
Yes. The promise of "Not leaving you to get raped by niggers" is literally the foundation of western military morale. If you stop holding up the bargain, people desert as soon as things stop going their way. If people are deserting because they think they're being left for dead, then your military is no better than the ANA.
>>30339765
You seem to have misread me.
I understand. I don't fucking care. They were idiots.
>>30339973
This is the kind of idiotic thinking that got that whole squad taken out in Afghanistan years back, because one guy stepped in a minefield and then every stupid fucker in the squad felt they just HAD to try to get them out and stepped on one themselves.
>>30339560
That is actually extremely likely. American civilians are pussies.
>>30339765
Those were delta snipers. Not squids.
>>30338555
>>30335308
Politics killed rangers. Garrison did gud. Some mistakes, but had to play the hand he was dealt. Air power would've helped, but not being there would've helped moar.
Tl;Dr, Don't get into other people's civil wars, if you do, bring AC130's.
>>30339115
>Im nowar: the post
>>30339173
>actually separates the political and the military
>we won in vietnam too
>>30340057
Guess that explains why you are well on your way to having a battalion of super commandos under your command eh? Bet your whole plan is to build additional pylons
>>30339683
Oh, because it's real smart to follow a dude around in a fucking helicopter for hours, directing a ground assault force in a city where it turns out 2 helicopters got shot down. How on earth do you expect that to have a better outcome? What's stopping the targets from calling their buddies to come on over and shoot at the Americans? At least the original plan had surprise going for it.
As for HUMINT that how they located the meeting in the first place. You obviously don't know the anything about Somalia past what you saw in the BHD movie, so why don't you shut your mouth?
>>30342438
Yeah, you ROTATE your helos instead of just using one. Not that hard. Second, was you there? Doubt it, Then you have about the same amount of info as I do.
>>30340861
>ROEs, hearts and minds, diplomacy, fighting alongside indigenous forces, etc.
Yes, the military is ran by bureaucrats, and have been since Vietnam.
>>30342729
>hurr durr i watched the movie and read tom clancy so im smarter than real military strategists!!111!!"
fucking christ can summer just be over already
>>30342752
i just wish we could just go old school with free fire zones and shit. the ROEs and red tape and shit are the whole entire bottleneck in this thing.
if you let us just napalm children and gun down anybody, this shit would be over in a few years.
>>30342773
Never said that but it whatever you want to believe.
>>30342773
You want more insurgents and freedom fighters? That's how you get it. smart, real smart.
>>30342807
Not if they're all dead.
>>30342729
>Yeah, you ROTATE your helos instead of just using one. Not that hard.
What the fuck do you think is going to happen when you rotate the helicopters? Guess what, now they get to shoot at both helis or you introduce a gap in your ISR coverage which means your ground assault force gets to run around blind for however long while you conduct a handover. Also where the fuck do you get enough helicopters to follow around 20 different clan leaders and then rotate coverage?
>Second, was you there? Doubt it, Then you have about the same amount of info as I do.
>My imagination's just as accurate as the historical accounts, the post
>>30345088
First, where did ground forces come in? I never said that. You follow them and then do the raid at night. Jesus fucking christ.
>>30345827
Guess what dumbass you can hear and see helicopters. So you can stalk Jamal around all day but he's gonna lead you around the whole city in circles unless you're ready to come get him. It's obvious you've never even thought about how to carry out a DA raid before and now you're just talking shit randomly pretending to be some kind of army man
>>30345988
"Oh look, another helo on patrol, whatever. " daykare is strong with this one.
>>30346573
Somehow the fact that the first Blackhawk got shot down within 40 minutes of the raid says to me that a Blackhawk circling around for literally the whole day would not fare well. Not to mention that a week or so before a 101st Airborne Blackhawk got shot down by Aidid's militia. All Blackhawks were seen as viable targets so doing "patrols" definitely would not have gone well. Don't be retarded.
So, I don't know how any of you read the book or where to come into this argument, but the 160th ran constant 'patrols' and fake-outs over Mogadishu the entire time they were there. The rangers they brought along called them roller coaster rides.
>>30339329
>bat boys did it all the time when I was in Iraq 2006-2007
Did you ever stop to consider that there just might be a little difference in equipment, capability, and doctrine between 1993 and 2006-07?
I can flat out guarantee you that the methods and doctrines you saw in 06-07 are a direct result of lessons learned in 93.
>>30339235
>The WW2 guys would be shaking their heads going "Are you fucking stupid son?" at the thought of risking your life for a dead body.
no doubt all those ww2 guys you've spoken to would back you up on that.
it was a bit stupid diverting through the entire city to the choppers. but that doesn't mean you leave guys behind. the better idea would have been to have a heavily equipped qrf ready to go back at camp that would go directly to the crash site, rather than having to pick their way through the city. so the vips are removed (mission success) and the pilot rescue is a different mission stream using fresh and properly equipped guys. otherwise everyone is driving around in circles with changing objectives.
hindsight is 20/20.
Threadly reminder that Clinton refused to give the task force any armored vehicles or gunship support and the administrations constant cries for immesiate results forced Garrison into committing a mission at the worst possible time in the worst possible place.
>>30339344
>I'd sure hope the reliability of the 160th Squadron is not based on whether they'll never be left behind. If this were WW3, they'd be doing high-risk shit behind Russian and/or Chinese lines where there's no time or room for dicking around picking people out of crashed helicopters. If their ability to do their job is reliant on being saved whenever one of their choppers goes down no matter what the circumstance, what kind of selfish fucks are they?
you do realize that in ww2 great effort was expended by both sides to rescue pilots during the battle of britain? and the occupation of europe? pilots take time to train and are hard to replace.
>Then again, it's been so long since air crew and pilots have fought a real enemy they don't understand what it means to really lose personnel and deal with it.
literally how the fuck would you know, basement warrior.
shut the fuck up already dickhead, the tough guy persona is dumb as fuck and doesn't suit faggots who spend all their time avoiding the world.
>>30339354
>see SAS people dragging terrorists back into building to kill them after they surrendered.
Please, tell us when this happened.
>>30340075
No, what happened in that case is that the squad reacted blindly, rather than waiting for proper help to arrive.
It's not trying to save guys that's stupid. It's being fucking stupid in doing so that's the problem.
>>30340777
Oh look, this meme again.
>>30338672
This desu. Delta are the jobbers of the SOF world and solely exist to make SEALs and SAD look competent.
>>30346573
'oh look another blackhawk following warlord jamal al beebeecee around like a little puppy, nothing suspicious about that at all'
fuck you're a retard, feel ashamed.
>>30347869
Ohhhhh, wow such words.
>>30348003
yes, those are words. well done.
>>30338555
Clinton was offered the mission several times, but wanted to wait to see how negotiations would work out. He was warned that the window of opportunity was closing. Then a few months later, he got fed up and said, "grab him". They warned him that by this point Aidid's security was beefed up, and the mission was no longer possible. Then Clinton's political staff jumped in and basically said do it anyway.
They also insisted that minimum force be used, to avoid an "escalation".
So the senior officers were handed an unworkable set of orders, which to their shame they didn't push back hard enough on.
SRC: Bowden's book.
>>30339173
Basically. It's America's glaring weakness.
That and our sof are so good that 20 yr old policy sci majors think they can write an operation out of daydreams and Hollywood, then ask a president with little more knowledge to turn that into an order. If they were less competent, the politicians would be more cautious about how they're used.
>>30338640
Dumb luck or typical American arrogance coupled with sheer ignorance?
