Indulge my curiosity /k/ and don't get all pissy over "magical scenarios". Its mgical, but I still want to get your opinion.
Say that by December 1941 Japan has a million more tons of cargo ships then it had in reality. So, they can play their Pacific war with more then just 11 divisions.
On December 7th 1941 aircraft of IJN carrier group wreck US navy. In the afternoon, 75.000 Japanese troops start landing on Hawaii and other relevant nearby islands. After a week of hard fighting, Hawaii are taken by the Japanese and reinforced every month since. In early 1943 Not-Midway happens. Somewhere, somehow, IJN naval forces are ground down for a significant number of carriers/naval aircraft and put out of action for a number of months. Also US invasion fleet is ready to face perhaps 200.000 Japanese troops on Hawaii. (is 200k an overestimate in this fancy scenario? Let's say Japan really prioritizes fortifying Hawaii)
How would such an invasion proceed?
What would this mean for entire Pacific war?
thanks
>>30176701
Well it'd mean we couldn't nuke them.
America would be hellbent on retaking hawaii though. I imagine something akin to America's last resort plan to hit japan, the one where americans storm their beaches. Except in hawaii.
Afterwards, we'd nuke the shit out of japan.
And hawaii would hate the japs for much longer than they did in reality
>>30176701
it would possibly have a drastic effect on the overall war, with Hawaii (actual US "homeland") taken it would lead to a potential US prioritization of fighting the Japanese first instead of the Germans. If the US did prioritize the war in that way it would have significant material consequences in Europe, and may allow for the germans to hold out long enough for some of their better weapon programs to bear fruit.
Say Hitler was black and gay...
Jap ASW doctrine was horrible. USN subs would have a field day, and the 200k troops would just starve.
>>30177094
OP here.
I was actually thinking about that. Japan had horrendous convoy protection. Heck, they didnt even use convoys in many cases.
>>30177138
They started convoys in what, late 44, or even into 45? I can't remember.
>>30176701
It could be done...but they would not have that many men. 200,000 would be hard pressed to get there with the U.S submarines going full wold pack on them. However with Pearl out of the way San Francisco becomes the next closest main west coast naval port. At this point it would shift to the americans coming up with a liberation plan of Hawaii while for the japanese it would be keeping the U.S off its back for them to take Port Moresby or more dicking around in china.
>>30177061
>for some of their better weapon programs to bear fruit.
They'll still get nuked before they have any of their own, and that's that.
>>30177168
think it was mid 44.
>>30176701
Japan's escorts were terrible at actually escorting ships. Destroyers were seen as surface combatants to the point that their ASW and AAA capabilities were neglected hard. You may manage to land those troops on the Hawaiian islands without getting shot to pieces by the massive amount of coastal defences. Japan had no respectable opposed beach landing doctrine, and their heaviest fire support for a beach landing was by doctrine their heavy cruisers. Assuming they manage to get ashore and secure the islands, then comes the problem of supplying them. There is some success while the US sorts out its submarine torpedo problem, but after that you're losing convoy after convoy, you're faced with an angry indigenous population, and you don't have the food, fuel, or other supplies necessary to support the Hawaiian islands as a naval base or airbase. In short, it becomes a black hole of supplies and ships for no gain.
>>30176701
I kind of have to believe that the US Navy would never actually allow Japan to land troops in Hawaii, no matter the circumstances. It would be a nightmare scenario.
>>30176701
Harry Turtledove actually wrote a few books on this, about the Japanese invasion and occupation of Hawaii. The first one is called Days of Infamy, and the second is End of the Beginning. Pretty good books, if I say so myself.
The sheer logistics of trying to supply 200,000 troops four thousand miles away from Japan are staggering. It took an absurd number of cargo ships to supply allied forces in the pacific, with large and developed forward supply bases. The nearest Japanese base would be, what, Guam? Truk?
The logistics of a Hawaiian invasion are impossible in almost any conceivable scenario.
