FOR THOSE THAT CC
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You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
At what moment, when mobbed by violence in an uncontrollable situation, would you draw your firearm?
If someone is chasing you/if you're surrounded, would you brandish? Or does taking a firearm out of its holster necessitate firing it?
>>30155333
As soon as you close to a distance where you can sprint, leap and strike. If you close that distance further I will absolutely empty a magazine. I'm not risking being the guy who gets made an example of and have my skull kicked in.
>>30155333
I would draw if my life was threatened.
And I would fire if the threat didn't stop.
>does taking a firearm out of its holster necessitate firing it?
This is nonsense spread by retards on the internet.
The vast majority of defensive gun uses involve merely drawing your firearm.
Also, there's no such thing as "brandishing" in any state's criminal code that I've seen.
>>30155355
This, good post.
>>30155355
I believe Texas has one, if I remember correctly
I'm going have to check now
>>30155365
No, they just have weak open carry laws.
If I look over and see another guy getting stomped, I'd probably have my gun out and tell people to back off. If they don't, I'm shooting someone. This is assuming I'm a bystander that just gets caught up in something.
But I'm getting attacked by some retard, I'm probably going to do close to the same thing. But be a bit more willing to shoot.
Is that wrong? Dunno. It's subjective. If it's a situation with hundreds or even thousands of people acting like idiots, I'm getting myself the fuck out of there at all costs, and if I see someone getting hurt I will at least attempt to help them as I make my way out.
>>30155333
So, these kinds of fantasy roleplay are important OP. They're important because that decision needs to really be already played out in your head before the incident. Otherwise, If you're trying to make decisions in a split second under stress, maybe you'll make a poorer decision than you could have or freeze up all together.
The problem is the possible situations are so varied that you can't really come up with a perfectly linear flow chart.
What you need to do is come up with a list of criteria.
1. When is it legal to shoot?
2. Under what circumstance would you be willing to shoot?
3. What situations satisfy both 1 and 2?
In this manner, the decision can be made mostly in advance allowing to fall to your "training" rather than trying to rise to the occasion.
>>30155333
>Or does taking a firearm out of its holster necessitate firing it?
It's not Chekov's Gun
It's real life
ffs use your brain
>>30155365
>>30155385
Texan here, with law experience.
"Brandishing" is in our criminal code. But it applies to any weapon. Basically, it means if you take a weapon out and are not the one being threatened, but the one doing the threatening, you're breaking a law. Usually we call it "deadly conduct." Not "Brandishing"
Is it a stupid law? Maybe. But it is not really enforced. The only time it comes up is during stuff like, well, protests or rallies turned violent or bar fights.
>>30155385
>>30155365
>>30155355
Just checked, its only illegal on school grounds (duh)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk59imFr6yI
If someone is at or within 21 foot of me, I am immediately on 'Guard-Stance' mode, and may God help any one who comes withing that circle.
>>30155388
It's just an interesting dilemma to think about. Taking a bunch of sucker punches from a crowd--is that preferable to taking a life? The public scrutiny that'll come afterwards?
And what about less clear cases, say if you're getting entrapped, pelted with rocks and bottles. No real threat to your life, so am I legally expected to keep my gun holstered?
>>30155386
True, that as a gun owner you have the responsibility to keep yourself out of dangerous situations. Here's an interesting one--should I then not go to political rallies, sacrifice freedom of assembly/speech knowing that a dangerous situation might arise? There's a fine line between protection and provocateur.
>>30155333
I would not brandish or draw unless I intended to fire the gun. If you are carrying concealed, your defacto advantage is the element of surprise. The longer the guns presence is exposed the longer the enemy has to come up with the means to overpower you. Wether its niggers hiding in the trees or the nigger in front of you is also carrying. A gun is not a threat, its a solution.
As such I would not draw the weapon unless my life was threatened.
>>30155406
Deadly conduct is basically a specific form of aggravated assault.
It's illegal in any state to randomly point a gun at someone for no reason.
But "brandishing" doesn't seem to exist on the books in any state.
>>30155333
If you get knocked to the ground you run the risk of one of these terrorists stomping on your neck/spine and killing you
so at that point I would feel justified in defending myself.
>>30155388
Oh, and for me it's like this.
I do not put my hand on my gun until there is a threat I can clearly describe.
I do not pull my gun out until I am prepared to fire.
I do not fire my gun until I have in order to avoid serious injury.
In the years of carry I've only ever gotten to putting my hand on my gun once, and that was for a dog. An unsocialized german shepard that was growling, head down, walking towards me off the leash. I did not draw nor did anybody even see the actual a gun.
>>30155420
I said
>assuming you were just a bystander who gets caught up.
If you intend to be there, by all means, go. But that is where situational awareness comes in and always giving yourself an out. If you want to march in a protest, sure, But don't get smack dab in the middle of the crowd, or go near people who are acting retarded. Once weird stuff happens, leave. Or at the very least back out and go to the back of the crowd, get into a building, or stand to the side until you feel safe.
Whoa there cowboy. 2edgy4me.
>>30155333
If my life was being threatened then yes, if it was just some little cunt being a bitch and wanting to start swinging then no, a mob quite possibly.
>>30155425
The word in and of itself is not used specifically in our penal code. But it amounts to the same thing.
http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/Deadly-Conduct.htm
Our actual penal code text says "discharging a firearm in the direction of a habitation, person...."
Then it goes into the whole "pointing" or "showing" weapons in "terroristic threats."
>>30155420
>Taking a bunch of sucker punches from a crowd--is that preferable to taking a life?
I don't know but the correct answer is to not be there.
>The public scrutiny that'll come afterwards?
Worry about legality and your own conscious only.
>No real threat to your life, so am I legally expected to keep my gun holstered?
I will shoot someone if they're trying to injure me. I don't understand where this idiotic mentality comes from of, "real men use fists" and stuff like that. It's not okay to allow yourself to be the victim of violent crime just because there's no gun involved. In 2014 3,827 were either stabbed or beaten to death. It pisses me off when I hear some BLM going on about how a 350lb black man was unarmed when he got shot by police. As if it matters whether he's armed or not. A full grown man can absolutely beat you to death.
california seems like one of the places you would be least likely to get away with that sort of move.
I guess if you pull that shit off don't get caught?
>>30155471
My problem when people say the word "brandishing" is that it doesn't actually refer to any specific law or legal concept, and so it inevitably results in misunderstandings and bad advice.
What you're talking about is commonly known as aggravated assault. Which is a real thing and something to be aware of in a self defense situation.
"Deadly conduct" in Texas includes elements of aggravated assault, and various reckless conduct style laws.
>>30155514
Yes, just like "Brandishing" it is a catch all.
If we had a law that said literally, "No brandishing." It would be used the same way. Deadly Conduct is used when Aggravated Assault cannot be pursued. Or when it's a violent crime where the culpability amounted to negligence.
>>30155333
the only place that people with legal ccw's go to protests is in MN those of us in CA with one don't go within a mile of these events while carrying.
why weren't the women who ere getting attacked yelling rape? Isn't that what the crowd were doing?
Spics gonna spic i guess. too bad. as a whole they are usually good people but if this tide is turning CA is in for some tough times.
>>30155533
Samefag
I would draw my cc and yell very loudly if they blocked my exit "I AM BEING KIDNAPPED AND AM AFRAID FOR MY LIFE"
Legal definition of kidnapping:
The crime of unlawfully seizing and carrying away a person by force or Fraud, or seizing and detaining a person against his or her will with an intent to carry that person away at a later time.
>>30155333
Damn right I would brandish. I'm borderline crippled so running or fisticuffs aren't an option for me. No way am I going to wait and find out how far a mob is willing to go, if they look like they mean me harm I can only assume that my head is getting bashed in. If the gun doesnt scare them then the bullets sure will.
That said since all this BLM and anti-trump nonsense started I basically plan my life around never being anywhere near large concentrations of minorities. I want my country back damnit.
>>30155529
Based on my reading, the purpose of the deadly conduct law seems to be to simply make distinction between pointing a firearm at someone as a misdemeanor, and firing it at someone as a felony.
Probably either to avoid cluttering aggravated assault further, or because they afterwards decided it needed a specific distinction.
>>30155554
Purge the cripple MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!
>>30155333
There is in no way that pulling out a gun wouldn't make a situation worse, but then again not like I can argue against trips.
>>30155547
In the model penal code, kidnapping implies an element of intended secrecy in regard to the the actor doing the confinement.
Unlawful restraint is probably closer to what you're looking for iirc
>>30155574
It's culpability yo.
>knowingly or recklessly.
That's why it's also a catch all, and is used to eliminate the "But I didn't know" defense that can actually turn over an assault case.
Like, if some stupid kid shoots a gun while driving down the highway, trying to hit a sign but hits another car parked off to the side in the dark, they can't really charge him with assault because he didn't do it intentionally.
He did it "knowingly" or "recklessly."
>>30155420
Bring beaten by a crowd or having stuff thrown at you is life threatening.
More so because at any second one of THEM might find you have a weapon and become interested in taking it from you.
>>30155420
Getting pelted with rocks and bottles is a serious threat. You are in the process of being stoned
>>30155601
Yeah you are right, in CA kidnapping the victim has to be moved for it to be elevated to kidnapping from unlawful restraint
>>30155429
Or if you get knocked out you risk falling backwards and your head hitting the concrete. Then you'll be on a one way trip to veggie town
>>30155610
>Sec. 22.05. DEADLY CONDUCT. (a) A person commits an offense if he recklessly engages in conduct that places another in imminent danger of serious bodily injury.
>(b) A person commits an offense if he knowingly discharges a firearm at or in the direction of:
>>(1) one or more individuals; or
>>(2) a habitation, building, or vehicle and is reckless as to whether the habitation, building, or vehicle is occupied.
>(c) Recklessness and danger are presumed if the actor knowingly pointed a firearm at or in the direction of another whether or not the actor believed the firearm to be loaded.
>(d) For purposes of this section, "building," "habitation," and "vehicle" have the meanings assigned those terms by Section 30.01.
>(e) An offense under Subsection (a) is a Class A misdemeanor. An offense under Subsection (b) is a felony of the third degree.
So first, look at section (b)
Here we see that it is an offense if the person KNOWINGLY discharges a firearm.
Now in section (a) it refers to recklessness.
BUT, if you look at (c), you see that its interaction with (a) provides that knowledge is requisite for recklessness.
So we actually arrive at the same requirements for aggravated assault.
This is a common thread in criminal statutes, and you can see this explained further in Title 2 Chapter 6 of the Texas Penal Code.
>>30155355
It's called "Pointing and Presenting" and ift is a felony in certain States. Be sure you absolutely need to draw, that is why many advocate for drawing only when you will use it. It is also easier than you think for someone to close the distance, and you can possibly lose the firearm in a struggle, if you aren't prepared to fire, or not 100% on your legality.
>>30155660
Not going to argue. You may be right.
>>30155420
>Here's an interesting one--should I then not go to political rallies, sacrifice freedom of assembly/speech knowing that a dangerous situation might arise? There's a fine line between protection and provocateur.
You should go to Clinton rallies and draw on Bernie supporters.
You should avoid Trump rallies because then you would be playing into the media's narrative.
>say if you're getting entrapped, pelted with rocks and bottles. No real threat to your life, so am I legally expected to keep my gun holstered?
>pelted with rocks and bottles.
>No real threat to your life
Maybe you should ask an Arab woman if being pelted with rocks is no real threat to your life.
>>30155420
>Never heard of a stoning before
Dude, being pelted with rocks and bottles is a serious threat to your life.
So basically, Trump supporters were leaving the building where the Trump rally was and heading to their cars when they were attacked. What I don't understand is why Trump supporters are so violent?
>>30155691
>you can possibly lose the firearm in a struggle, if you aren't prepared to fire, or not 100% on your legality.
This is 100% why I say don't draw it unless you are at a point where you really do need to introduce the gun. For one it's an escalation of the event to introduce a gun, not a deescalation and secondly, if you aren't yet willing to use it then you shouldn't have introduced it.
>>30155333
>Or does taking a firearm out of its holster necessitate firing it?
No, this is not what we are saying. Drawing doesn't necessitate firing, that's dumb. You draw it when the situation has gotten to the point where you can say while sounding reasonable, "I needed because this..." AND if you draw it, you better be willing to use it.
>>30155423
>A gun is not a threat, it's a solution.
A gun is a threat if the wielder wants it to be.
On another tangent, there have been plenty of self-defense situations where merely the presence of a firearm can mitigate or repeal violent acts.
Peace through superior firepower works well, it's the only perk of OCing in my opinion.
I would draw if my life was threatened too, but I would only shoot as an absolute last resort. "Brandishing" laws (whatever your state calls them) are void in any reasonable self defense situation, and shooting people = a giant heap of legal shit. I probably wouldn't even use my firearm to save a total stranger, depending on the situation, strictly due to the amount of legal shit you will have placed upon you for shooting somebody.
>>30155878
>What I don't understand is why Trump supporters are so violent?
It is 2016.
>>30155948
His wife's son was attacked by a Trump supporter.
>>30155922
My concern:
>pull gun
>perp runs off
>perp or witness call cops because BLM or some shit
>describe your gun to cops, say you're waving it around
Or
>Some guy says something mean and puffs his chest out
>Pull gun out to show him he better not mess with me
>can't legally shoot him
>he closes distance, struggle insues
>takes gun
>beats ass
That's why I say that yes a gun can be used to deescalate a situation, hopefully that happens, but it is not WHY you pull a gun. You pull a gun because there is an immediate serious threat that you can verbalize.
>>30155584
This is a good point. Knowing these crowds and their crazy, most people will run, but you're gonna have to hope the police don't think you're a crazed shooter and turn you to swiss cheese, or that crazy and ballsy group of shitheads doesn't try to swarm you from all directions to beat you to a pulp. The former being more realistic.
>>30155965
The issue is people are not just saying "mean" things, the issue is people are getting beat in the streets for no damn reason and the cops are just fucking watching.
I don't even like cops, but the moment you start violently suppressing free speech is the moment you should be put into the fucking ground. If a fucking little bird flew over and Somalia'ed those fucks i would not shed a tear or blink a fucking eye. They are shitting on one of the core tenents of this nation and are, in my mind, effectively guilty of high treason.
Fuck em, fuck em all.
I dont even like trump, btw, before anyone gets assblasted, if this was a Hillary rally and there was people beating hillary supporters i would feel the exact, same, way.
>>30156048
>I don't even like cops
I meant to say trump. Freudian slip? I dont like those cops for sure, their job is to protect the peace. They stood there, in full riot gear, and just fucking watched. Jesus, im pissed about that.
Personally, the cops i know are pretty good though. Those cops deserve to be out of a job, or whoever told them not to break up the riot does, if it came from the top.
>>30155965
>pull gun to show he better not mess with me
Jesus man are you 15? If the fuck's just saying mean words then go on about your business, if he does close the distance and
>struggle ensues
Then fuckin shoot him, it's not rocket science
>>30155333
>Or does taking a firearm out of its holster necessitate firing it?
No, but you better be ready to fire it because once someone sees a gun shit is going to get unpredictable real fast.
If your life is in danger, draw
If you see anything except assholes and elbows, shoot.
>>30155333
>California
in that exact situation, its either get raped and have your gun stolen, or draw your gun and get raped by the laws of the state. assuming the police dont immediately magdump the entire crowd you are in.
>>30155547
THAT'S MY PURSE
I DON'T KNOW YOU
>>30156067
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Unfortunately, there are people in this very thread that don't fully understand that.
>>30156106
>bring M-80's to the protest
>light one and get behind some concrete jersey barrier
>prophet
We already know what would happen
You'd back up 2 blocks and shoot 5 people
We already had 4 guys try this
>>30156150
lol
>>30156150
Just don't make a stupid video first
>>30156173
>memes were a mistake
>t. moot
>>30155355
You've got it backwards. It's not that taking the firearm out of the holster necessitates firing it, it's that you shouldn't take it out of the holster in the first place unless you need to fire it. If something happens between when you needed to fire it and actually getting it drawn that means you no longer need to fire, then fine.
If your draw is quick and you don't draw too soon though, there shouldn't be enough of a time gap for anything to happen that prevents a nigga from getting capped.
>>30155333
in that particular video, no I wouldnt. Im not being personally attacked, its just a few assholes throwing punches. Id sneak away while the crowd goes nuts and avoid it entirely.
If I am personally caught up in that (which I will do everything to avoid), I will back up, say I dont want any trouble and just let me through.
If they dont then yes imdrawing or at least putting my hand on the gun and telling them im armed and loudly saying I dont want trouble because theres a good chance people will be filming it
if it escalates then it escalates but the important thing to do is look like the guy who doesnt want to start trouble
>>30156183
Original poster here
I kekd
>>30156150
>>30156183
Whatever happened to those dumb fucks? They get sentenced?
>>30156236
One flipped or talked, the other three should be out on bail and are awaiting trial for 2nd degree inciting a riot bullshit.
>>30156106
Wrong
>>30156207
>I will back up, say I dont want any trouble and just let me through.
That worked well in Minnesota
>>30156236
Case is getting tossed
Star Tribune has the articles
>>30156247
>talked
Where did you hear this other than Dr8co?
>inciting a riot
The riot statute doesn't have anything to do with riotING
Hence why libs get away with it
>>30156137
>>30156294
>Legal immigrants.
>Defending their privately owned businesses.
>With legally owned firearms.
>From the descendants of freed black slaves.
This is pretty much the most American picture ever taken.
>>30155385
I think that is not a criminal act to brandish, but rather it is made reference to in specifying what constitutes justification. If someone is "Brandishing" a firearm in a threatening manner, it changes things as opposed to holding a firearm, though it is vague.
>>30156294
Actually, Right. even back then.
Today? heh heh...its so much fucking worse.
>>30155420
You do not bring your firearm if you are going to that sort of a event. Anything where it is possible that the police will be dropping by, or that you might be assaulted is a spot where you will be better off not bringing a gun. As a rule of thumb, if there is going to be chaos for less than a hour, a gun probably is not a good thing to bring.
>>30155333
I would fire at the moment where I adequately believe my life is going to end if I do not.
>>30156485
>heh heh
Christ you type like a fag, worse than fucking gooks and their ke ke bullshit becasue you should know better unless you are from reddit.
If I recall correctly he was grabbed for having a b& firearm. Ferguson had a bunch of people standing outside stores with scurry black weapons and there were no arrests, though cops generally acted like faggots they were allowed to stay.
>>30155419
> He thinks knives are still deadly in the modern world
Coward or gun shill detected
>>30155419
>cargo jorts
>>30156631
>He thinks humans have magically become immune to knives in the last generation
The guy stabbing you isn't going to call you an ambulance, he's going to leave you there to bleed.
>>30155419
>neighbor closing their blinds at the last second
>>30156491
>mite b dangerous!
>better not bring protection!
Kek
>>30155333
Multiple assailants. The minute more than one person attacks me, armed or unarmed, I would open fire and take my chances in court.
>>30156608
thats wot I get for about 5 hours of sleep eh?
but there is a large difference between the laws in MI and CA m8.
>>30156696
No, dangerous is not the same as chaotic. For a few examples, lets say you are making a bank deposit of what is considered a large sum of money for your area, transporting this with you might be considered dangerous, and you might chose to have a gun with you. Traveling to a unknown area, or a somewhere that street crime is prevalent, you might want to bring a gun with you. Bringing a gun to a political rally where thousands of people are around, and the more things escalate the less you know what is going to happen, than it is might not work out for the best. For one, if you think for a second that if you end up shooting someone that he won't be a saint, and would have never harmed a fly, you are mistaken. The person you shoot is going to be described as a literal Ghandi, no matter how much of a shitty person he was. Plus, the people who might be on your side about it, won't be willing to endanger themselves after having time to think about it. If they don't know you, they won't testify to your innocence on the spot, which will give the people prosecuting you a chance to question their standing.
Danger+Chaos=Pepper spray, or a Tazer
>>30155386
unless that person is your friend or in your group then fuck it.
im not spending tens of thousands of dollars and years of my life tied up in legal battles because someone i dont know and never met didnt have the sense to keep their mouths shut in an explosive situation.
Ill call the police and if and only if it looks like the person is going to die i MIGHT get involved, but I would probably be on my way out of the area as soon as the shit starts
people blocking me from leaving?
they're getting run down or gunned down
>>30156696
LOL, this is the type of /k/ommando that gets beat to death with a knife in his pocket, because "knives are horrible for self-defense!"
>>30156695
thats a garage door ya dingus
>>30156695
That's a garage door but yeah.
I also imagine this guy as the quintessential cold steel owner.
>>30156323
I believe this. they had to at least pretend like they were going to try and prosecute but otherwise nothing will come of it.
>>30155352
That's like 10-15 feet for most people. If you shoot someone that far away and they don't have a gun, you are going to jail. Especially if you are white and you shot one of these anti trump shitskins.
>>30155355
>>does taking a firearm out of its holster necessitate firing it?
>This is nonsense spread by retards on the internet.
>The vast majority of defensive gun uses involve merely drawing your firearm.
It's an oft repeated corruption of a sound principle which states:
>do not draw your firearm if you are not willing to use it
If you draw and it does not deescalate or immediately halt the situation you will likely need to use it.
It's worth noting that most places with stand your ground law you can legally draw and display your arm to prevent or stop a crime but you shouldn't go around drawing your arm willy nilly. Brandishing is drawing to cause alarm outside of that circumstance.
>>30155333
shit like that would make me want to CC a MP5 or UZI
>>30157114
I was told in my ccw class that anything up to 21 feet is the standard for a defensive shoot, even if they don't have a gun, but are advancing on you to do harm.
>>30159714
that 21 foot crap comes from a test they did to see how close a guy with a knife had to be to kill you before you could draw and fire, if you have already drawn your firearm or if they don't have a knife it does not apply.
Just shoot when you are in fear of serious bodily harm or death and you'll be fine, id say that a angry mob poses a serious threat.
