Are special forces the worst thing to happen to western militaries?
In the scope of out comes of wars, special forces impact is almost nothing, yet politicians see their use as a way of saying they are contributing to fighting some cause without political fallout while they achieve nothing in a pragmatic sense
large infantry and indiscriminate bombing are the only methods that can win wars, proliferation of special forces contributes to the constant quagmires of modern warfare conducted by the west
I agree, OP. Russian spetznaz are completely ineffective.
>>30081840
is this bait?
SF have accomplished many missions that couldn't be accomplished by convential forces
>raid on st nazzaire
>heavy water plant in norway
>osama
>countless hostage rescue missions
>entebbe
the list goes on
>>30081871
Go trip somewhere else, fag
>>30081871
raid on st nazzaire, heavy water plant in norway were conducted in total war, so their use was apt
hostage rescues and osama are anecdotes in the big picture
what I'm talking about is the west has shifted to trying to make special forces impact the outcome of their wars the way traditional forces have, and are failing miserably despite how efficient special forces may be
>>30081899
Special forces in Vietnam had a disproportionate impact on the outcome of various campaigns, and were far more effective than any number of conventional troops.
>>30081914
disproportionate sure, but still a piss in the ocean
>>30081871
At what cost to expense ratio though. Don't get me wrong I like to watch operator movies and shit like anyone else on /k/, but the US spends an obscene amount of money on secret squirrel shit that has had a negligible effect on the war in the grand scheme of things.
SF has been operating in Afghanistan since before Iraq and look at how little has been achieved there (if we are being completely truthful things have actually regressed back to a state worse than they were 4-5 years ago)
>>30081899
>>30081932
GWOT has been largely a half assed attempt hindered by public opinion and funding, so when militaries use SF more widely instead of a precision tool, I agree they're ineffective.
>>30081840
So did you wash out of BUD/S or ranger school?
We are using conventional forces, just not our own.
>>30081840
The West's unwillingness to take the casualties and expend the resources necessary to send out large infantry formations has nothing to do with Spec Ops Anon...
>>30081840
this isn't bait, I get what OP is saying.
SF groups are a scalpel, but wars are historically won by hammers. large infantry and indiscriminate bombing are the only methods that HAVE won wars, maybe we will see a war won by SF, but it is unlikely. SF are meant to support the main effort, not BE the main effort. So like what >>30081964 said, when they are used widely they become less effective.
We get really into how cool the SF guys look and then we decide that "hey, they are the best so let them handle it" and we send SF into missions where a larger unit would work better.
>>30081932
SF had been making huge strides in Afghanistan early on until we swarmed it with conventional forces.
Alongside CIA officers, they united many of the tribes against the Taliban and Al Queda. As soon as the Northern Alliance started to slow their progress and had trouble retaining what they took, the war had gotten more publicity and we jumped the gun by sending ground forces as peacekeepers. This just made us look like invaders and brought about more Taliban sympathizers and unconventional warfare that our modern Army wasn't equipped to fight.
Had we left SF teams to continue making deals with tribes and discreetly hunt down resistance, I guarantee we would have had more success by this time. We tried to make too much change ourselves, rather than making the Afghans do it so they could stabilize their own home.
>>30081964
That's the same tired excuse that the US has been using for the last 50+ years, I think at some point you have to step back and objectively self evaluate your best units who despite what hollywood would have you believe, preform at best marginally better than their line unit counterparts in real world combat situations.
How many operator style units do you really need to win a war? Basically every branch now has a redundant secret squirrel type group (some have multiple), that is hyped on by the military industrial complex and Hollywood.
And that's not even counting all the CIA/State Dept/DEA non-military operator groups that are running around the third world further exacerbating tensions and anti-US sentiment abroad.
>>30081840
I understand your point OP but really your question is about the nature of modern war and the and the goals of western nations vis a vis the use of force. SF allows countries to have an important impact on the outcome of other peoples conflicts with minimal footprint. In terms of conflicts where the western country in question is a major combatant SF plays an important role in the mobilization of indigenous forces and can significantly increase the impact of those forces as well as generate vital intelligence
>>30082084
JSOC guides most of those forces now..
dat skinny manlet ass
>>30082067
Giving illiterate peasants bags of cash to not mortar the FOB or to point out IED's is not the same thing as winning. All those guy's did was pay the Taliban a shit load of money to not fight for awhile.
The war in Afghanistan (and Iraq) has been the biggest goat fuck and financial boondoggle in this country's history.
>>30081840
Well, first of all, Army Fag here. You must mean Special Operations Forces, because true Special Forces in the US is only the Army.
And they've been great. Y'know all those little armies/paramilitary groups all over the third world? The ones overthrowing shit or holding their own for a new government to take root? Trained by US Army SF with a few other SOF implants.
Every SOF group has their own job. And these jobs are often highly important. You're not doing shit with your mass infantry and CAS without TACP, CCT, SOWT and PJs.
You're not gonna be able to conduct naval operations close to land without UDT/SEALS/other naval SOF.
Rangers are useful as hell.
Marsoc is cool, they work a bit like Rangers.
See, the last coventional wars we had, SOF was very useful in. So there's your clue right there.
But you're prolly a pissed off 17-21 pseudo-intellectual jackass with unnecessarily abrasive opinions because you think it's cool.
>>30082136
You are simply wrong about that. SF was able to bring together the northern alliance and with the assistance of SF and air power they made important military strides against the Taliban taking assists and territory
>>30082149
you're a cool dude
not op
>>30082170
Can't tell if sarcasm, too drunk to care much.
Not trying to be an ass.
>create super elite super cool military force
>kids join trying to join force
>wash out and have to join regular army
It's brilliant just as a recruitment tool alone.
>>30081840
>Are special forces the worst thing to happen to western militaries?
I think so.
The US armed forces have lost a tremendous amount of their conventional fighting capability by the bogus concept of COIN which was developed by the NeoCons to fight cheap wars at a low cost using light infantry and special forces.
In an environment with SAMs and artillery SF gets wiped the fuck out.
>>30082184
COIN is a doctrine that is meant to be applied by all forces conducting counterinsurgency operations, the large infantry formations and bombing are ineffective against a non-conventional enemy. SF and other SOF are extremely useful and important tools but they have to be used for the right jobs
>>30082161
What important strides were made and what is the status of those strides today? If anything the prolonged deployment of "SF type" units has only further destabilized the middle east and is partly to blame for the rise of ISIS and other terror cells.
For every jihadist you kill in a operator raid you create a dozen more from the surrounding community. I know this is /k/ and we aren't supposed to question the mighty military industrial complex, but I seriously have to wonder how some of you guys cannot see what a complete disaster that last 15 years of war have been.
Well Obama has a hardon for SOCOM and JSOC especially. Dont see his successors reeling them in either.
>>30082246
SF was instrumental in the taking of Kabul and Bagram, as well as Jalalabad and Mazar-i-sharif in the early stages of the Afghanistan war and the mobilization of the northern alliance prevented the Taliban from better preparing for the oncoming American troops. It is not the job of SOF hold territory that is the job of conventional troops either American or indigenous either way SF can't be blamed for their failings
>>30082184
Special Forces arent meant for areas where SAMs and arty is likely to be used. Special, means special uses. Like using Green Berets to use locals to wage a proxy war. Or Delta going in an capturing an airport so men and materiel can be delivered by plane. Or seals to pop a key bridge for enemy logistics.
They arent meant to win wars, or even fight battles. They are meant to show up out of nowhere, do their shit, and melt away back into the darkness. Felt, not seen.
Counter insurgency is not a neocon concept. Sure, there was an updated COINs concept generated about a decade back in the neocon heyday, that doesnt mean they <pun>coined</pun> the term
>>30082246
The kill one jihadi create ten more issue is in no way specific to SOF that's an issue with any use of force and the more directed and precise the force the less inflammatory it may be. An operator killing a jihadi may spawn ten more but an aircraft bombing indiscriminately creates far more
>>30081840
Go study the use of SAS in the middle east and how they actually get single targets killed, as opposed to the American method of drone strikes and bombing the shit out of everything, causing large amounts of collateral damage.
>>30082084
as >>30082149 pointed out, the reason the Air Force has special operations is that they all support air power in austere locations.
JTACs do forward air control.
CCTs do that and are air traffic control in general which is useful for situations where you have multiple aircraft operating far from fixed sites. i have a friend who was a CCT, and he told stories of how he'd work lateral and vertical deconfliction of CAS stacks while he was kicking down doors and shooting people with the SF A teams he was attached to.
speaking from personal experience, knowing the weather over your target can be the difference between a successful and unsuccessful bomb, so SOWT is essential despite the harrumphing at the concept.
PJs rescue downed aircrew, because the morale boost, return on investment, and intelligence gains/prevention of loss are critical.
and to add to all of that, the USAF has a fleet of special operations aircraft for infil/exfil/fire support/other methods of enhancing battlefield control. they've got specialized missions and train hard to execute those missions.
so that's why the AF has special operations.
>>30082211
>ineffective against a non-conventional enemy
Well sure they are.
It's just America has no stomach for total war, so it's mired in this schizophrenic, failed concept of COIN, which these days, basically amounts to bribing the enemies with lots of printed dollars.
>>30082435
Thank you for your nuanced in depth argument you have convinced me
>>30082435
You have no actual clue about the situation over there outside of the generic pseudo knowledge in your 100-200 level international studies/relations classes and your late night mastubatory sessions on /pol/, do you?
>>30082330
Maybe they were instrumental in taking those cities, but we have long since lost control of those cities so it's a moot point. Special Operations is routinely touted as the "future of modern warfare" but in all actuality there is little evidence that they contribute in any meaningful large scale way to war despite what hollywood would have you believe.
>>30082342
I agree it's not a SOF specific problem and they probably do create far less collateral damage than conventional troops/drone strikes, but what collateral damage they do create greatly outweighs the gains they might make by killing whichever bearded pedophile gets to sit in the big chair at Taliban hq.
Show me a single example of a country that we have overthrown (using SOF/CIA to instigate insurrection etc) that is better off now. It's a policy that has failed in both latin and south america and has more recently failed in pretty much the entirety of the middle east and north africa.
>>30082524
Lol.
>>30082519
>Taking cities isn't a contribution to a war
You have to take the city and then you have to hold the city and those are different jobs for different units that planners had no idea what to do after SF did its work is not a detraction from the actual effectiveness of SF
>>30082524
>>30081899
>the west
Sure you arent a dunecoon trying to abate your very well placed fears?
>>30082519
I don't think you or I are in a position to judge the impact of a particular mission such as the elimination of Taliban leaders but removing leadership is important. There is no shortage of gunmen willing to work for heroin money but people with organizational and leadership ability are much harder to come by. As for countries being better off or not that is long term question and you can't deny that the SOF I'm question did their job of overthrowing governments what the people there do after that isn't the concern of SOF
>>30081840
>Doesn't know how SF are used in US
>Implies they're stand alone units
Navy seals are embedded with Marines all the time
Delta and Rangers work with Infantry and Armored all the time.
What are you even going on about?
>>30081840
Said no one to the pj coming save his ass
ITT: people who don't know the difference between SF and SOF
For all the talk of Hollywood itt what movies actually show SOF or SF winning entire wars on their own? Most recent films have focused on single missions and a few on ones that failed
>>30082624
I don't think anyone has a problem with their operational capabilities.
Yes, we know they can kill people and form militias and instigate insurrection, but does doing that actually contribute to a safer more stable world for the average american?
The military industrial complex says it does. I look at the state of current affairs and have to say no it most certainly does not.
>>30082724
OP has a problem with their capabilities which is what this whole thread is about
>I never got into BUDs: the thread
>>30082688
The movies only portray particular missions because they are just that a movie.
It's a lot easier and more exciting to tell the story of a action packed raid on bin laden's compound or how 6 ex-military operators faced off against impossible odds of libyan kebabs than it is to tell the story of how thousands of young americans and trillions of dollars have been wasted on building failed nation states.
The other problem with them is it further exacerbates the hero worship of the military in this country and makes regular people (Congressmen and Senators included) think that giving someone a long tab transforms them into an unstoppable killing force and that deploying enough of those guys will somehow make the war any less unwinnable.
>>30082649
The difference is irrelevant in the subject of this discussion anyway. Non-military people have always referred to any operator style unit as "SF", it's just a semantics thing.
>>30082816
That's not what the OP was talking about. Whether or not operators can operate is a stupid discussion.
Where and how they should be allowed to operate is a much more worthwhile and interesting thing to talk about.
>>30081914
Vietnam was won by the North through a large conventional combined arms capaign
>>30081840
SF defeated the taliban in 2001.
>>30081840
>large infantry and indiscriminate bombing are the only methods that can win wars
Ask the Soviets how that went in Afghanistan :^)
>>30081840
>indiscriminate bombing
Have you heard of Twitter?
This thread is full of retards who are thinking the OP stated something like 'special forces suck' when thats not the point at all
its that politicians see them as an asset which they are not, they are put into roles that they're not meant to fill, they get additional funding and focus because it lessens political fallout to use these forces, all the while not accomplishing anything substantial in the long run
>>30083234
Using that logic, you could literally close down most of the air force
Why must ops always be fags
>beleibing a bunch of pedophile goat fuckers bribed by the US to just sit and smoke weed is """""""""""""winning"""""""""""
afgan is stil a shit show
SF failed to do anything substanital like they always do when asked to do this sort of shit
>>30081932
How much of SF's progress has been completely buttfucked by State Dept. and conventional military thinking that the Afghans need a national army and police force? How much progress has been undone by conventional military guys thinking their line infantry can do FID just as well as SF?
>>30083269
no, the airforce has the capability to win wars if politicians are willing to use them in a certain way
look at what it did in Kosovo
SF do not have the capability to win wars no matter how they are used
>>30083287
thats why the only way to win is to bomb everything to dust with bibles and invade with 1,000,000 crusaders and smite the heathens
Thread gave me a brain tumor
>This thread
>So many people who don't understand basic international relations
>Or military strategy
>So much armchair shit
Goddamn, sometimes this type of thing and /pol/ remind me why I don't give a fuck about popular opinion when it comes to policy.
>>30083322
enlighten us then Sgt Slaughter
>>30082519
>lost control of Kabul, Baghram, J-bad, Kandahar
Confirmed for knowing fuck-all about Afghanistan. Might I suggest doing some reading on the subject?
>>30082084
>That's the same tired excuse that the US has been using for the last 50+ years,
This. At this stage, 'half assed attempt hindered by public opinion and funding' is the default and expectations should be adjusted accordingly
>>30083732
you're just being snarky. I don't think anyone could look at Afghanistan right now and see it as any other than a failure.
>>30082983
clearly they didn't
I think another issue that OP is getting at, is that SOF are now being used to conduct what are basically conventional missions when the government knows the public wouldn't support a real conventional mission. They've become a cure-all and that might bite us in the ass down the line.
>all these mad people that don't (and can't) address OP's fundamental point, so they just snipe at tangential issues like pedants
>>30083234
you're right but this is /k/ and you can only post things like "look at how kewl this oper8or is guize!"
>>30083844
Oh, no. It definitely is. I also agree entirely with the argument that SOF is being used incorrectly. But the initial Afghan Mission set was perfect for SOF. It was the failings of our, in my opinion, misguided appeasing of the Pakistani shit-heads early on, coupled with the idea that a surge of conventional forces would fix the mess created by the idiots at the Agency, DEA, and State Department.
My original point was that that anon shouldn't be speaking on a topic that they lacked insight or knowledge on.
>>30084038
yeah he was basically just naming places he knows in Afghanistan.
I agree about the misuse but I also think the military itself shares just as much blame as cia, dea, etc. The military has fucked up as much as anyone but they always blame the civilians and since they're kind of a sacred calf in US politics right now it shuts down the conversation.
>>30082170
Nice nonargument.
>>30083862
It's already biting us in the ass in the form of terrorist blow black. Turns out overthrowing democratically elected leaders and leveling key infrastructure under the guise of "muh freedom" doesn't make people like you.
What's even worse is when you take the conventional force out of the country and rely entirely on SOF you don't even give the enemy a chance to engage you in combat, so now we have frustrated terror cells targeting soft civilian targets (aka Paris shootings).
But the military industrial complex sells billions of dollars worth of equipment to the same government officials who they keep in office by pumping their re-election campaigns full of super-pac money so the cycle just goes on and the regular Americans who are just trying to eek out a living now also have to live in fear of a radicalized jihadi shooting up a shopping mall or kids soccer game.
>>30084139
Oh, I blame the Military Leadership as much as the others too. Iraq put ideas in their heads that did not fit the mission or human terrain of Afghanistan. The politics fucked us in the beginning and the military fucked us after thinking that throwing more bodies at the problem was a good idea.
>>30082095
Well no shit
>>30082340
>Counter insurgency is not a neocon concept
The entire army has been transformed around the bullshit concept of COIN and reliance of special forces.
This is not good because it's only for low intensity, lightweight duty and a lot of military staffers are bemoaning the loss of core skills of mechanized warfare.
>>30084211
I wouldn't doubt that the brass realized A'stan was a complete shit show as early as 06-07 and yet not only kept it up but escalated it.
There are a lot of people who care about their careers and their egos more than actually figuring out how to win the war. Nothing over there is worth someone's life or his egos, and they know that, yet they're too entrenched in their ways to shake things up and speak truth to power.
>>30084038
Actually dickhead having a large contingent of troops on a fortified base isn't remotely the same thing as having control over an area or a group of people.
The US isn't running jack shit outside of it's bases anymore. The country is in a state of near complete anarchy.
The Taliban is stronger and there is more anti-US sentiment in Kabul, Kandahar, Herat or any other major city now than there has been in the last decade by far.
>>30082488
Of course that's the way it works. Are you a dim-wit?
The government in Kabul hangs by a thread, with a patchwork of tribal alliances that are held together and lubricated solely by US dollars.
Go fuck yourself, you clueless grunt. This shit is far above your pay grade.
>>30084259
*legs not egos
Interesting comment I picked up from an ex-Green Beret in response to the Bundeswehr tank competition victory:
>Kudos to the Bundeswehr!
>I am not at all surprised. I have been bleating for at least a decade that the organizational skills needed by an army to fight an actual war have atrophied to the point of disappearance in the US Army.
>The mass delusion of the COIN cult has done this. The notion that being nice to the natives was all that was needed caused leadership at all levels to think of themselves as half baked versions of the Green Berets. (I am one)
>The result could be clearly seen in the GWOT wars in defeats at such places as Wanat in eastern Afghanistan where platoon or half platoon positions were poorly sited, poorly constructed, poorly supplied, poorly provided with fire support from artillery and air. Military officers are like all others in that they listen carefully to learn what the boss upstream wants. In the GWOT wars what was wanted was a belief that even if the villagers want to kill you en masse you are their freinds and protectors, no matter what. Well, pilgrims, that may work for at least some of the 5,000 highly empathic and simultaneously untrusting Green Berets in the world but to chase that rabbit down the hole for the whole army is to invite a developed incompetence in warfighting skills, including those of COIN.
>In this contest you see the end result. This was not a contest about tank quality. It was not about equipment quality. It was about unit quality and the US Army failed. Welcome to 5th Generation warfare. pl
>>30084312
>buying into Van Creveld and Billy Boy Lind's Generation Warfare
trashman.jpg
>>30084325
So you have no argument? You want the Army to continue the way it is?
>>30084325
Actually, William Lind is pretty wacky. I wouldn't mind doing a "Let's Read" thread of his novel of the US rising up against SJWs to become an authoritarian Christian state.
It's almost /pol/ the novel, except that Lind has a massive fucking ego
>>30084312
The contradiction of COIN is that you are there to support what is supposed to be a legitimate government or movement (if you're supporting rebels). The problem is that no truly legitimate government or movement would need that level of foreign assistance. Just the fact that they need you to essentially fight their war for them shows you that they're not worth fighting for.
Non of you faggots are even in the military, and thus have no idea what you're talking about on either side.
Fucking faggots.
>>30084267
>he thinks I'm a fucking low-level grunt
Hahahahaha, you funny man.
Try again.
>>30084347
Your post doesn't even make sense.
>Wars should be fought alone or the victor didn't deserve it, on an ideological level!
Is this some new retard-level reasoning?
>>30084347
>the american revolution was a mistake, the post
Sure, you tory fuck.
>>30084386
Oh, my apologies Brigadier General.
But what the fucking fuck are you doing on a Cambodian cartoon mastrubation website, sir?
>>30084415
>tory fuck
my sides
>>30083285
Well what the fuck are they gonna do, kill an idea? The objective in the middle east, as well as the approach have been inherently flawed from the start. It's and unachievable goal to begin with, unless you just want to commit genocide against all Muslims.
We should just sit back and sell weapons, and use SF to train 'moderate' groups, like we've been doing in Syria. Obviously it's going to be near impossible to install a dictator that is super friendly to the west, because the populace will revolt and murder him. Just imagine Saudi Arabia picking our leader, most folks would be outraged and kill her ass.
>>30084470
Genocide of Muslims is what most of the people ITT and a huge percent of people in general would probably want, yes.
>>30084341
Organizational atrophy is real.
Generational Warfare involves the deliberate misreading of historical and contemporary events, and obfuscates where it should illuminate
>>30082954
No.... No they didn't.
We literally withdrew due to domestic issues.
>>30084509
I think he means literally, as in the 1975 offensive by the north was basically a regular combined arms campaign invasion of the south. it wasn't fighting over hills in the a shau valley or stepping on mines anymore.
Poloticians love them because they aren't at Liberty to discuss special forces operations, so they can say "no boots on the ground" with a semi-clear conscience, which is about the best you can hope for a man who grew up a millionaire in a private school and has never grafted in his life.
It depends what you define as a special force, the SAS/SBS contributed massively to the Falklands war, but it was won pretty much by the parachute regiment and Royal Marines, both of which have a training and capability standard that matches most countries special forces.
It was special forces actions in Sierra Leone that destroyed the west side boys, one of the biggest rebel groups in the region, who were decimated by the SAS and 1PARA during Operation Barras, although that wasn't a war, Sierra Leone was essentially fighting a civil war against a loose amalgamation of groups, west side boys being one of them, after their defeat the other rebels were brought to the negotiating table.
>>30084539
That's true but his argument is entirely beside the point. We "lost" the conventional war because of a lack of public support combined thanks to a draft as well as general incompetence in conventional military leadership. If anything, the tide of the war could have been turned if conventional military leaders actually listened to the intelligence SF guys were reporting.
>>30081840
still good for busting the morale of the enemy when some American supermen go behind their lines and fuck their shit up
>>30084420
Haha, not that far up. Just a different community.
>>30084470
the objective in the middle east is "don't let those fuckers get to the point where they can actually point a fight our way"
It's been a resounding success so far.
>>30084578
Can't you hear echoes of Vietnam "kill counts" when they talk about killing such and such many ISIS fighters.
At this point, we've "killed" as much as the conservative estimates of their entire force
>>30083844
They have better electoral turn out that most Western countries despite people actively trying to kill them for voting.
That's quite a success for democracy.
>>30084470
thats the entire point
the heavy reliance on SF type warfare has given countries leaders retarded ideas and thus its very bad thing for militaries in general
leaders don't have to face the music of what needs to happen in order to fight a war with the intent to actually win it
>We should just sit back and sell weapons, and use SF to train 'moderate' groups, like we've been doing in Syria.
this is what they do and it is INEFFECTIVE
it doesn't work. It never has and western leaders keep doing it because they are fucking retarded and SF groups don't really give a shit either way because they get more money from these retarded ideas.
>>30081840
What the heck would these guys to in a ww3 scenario? They wouldn't be just handling low iq third worlders but actuall soldiers. Americans are cowards
>>30084420
Looking at dickgirls, talking about Mosin Nagants, complaining about the death spiral of quality in Asian cartoons, and occasionally dropping dank memes.
What else?
>>30081840
define special forces? it would be more accurate to cal them specialty forces, as in marginal ability, which by definition is a necessary thing to have for marginal situations
>>30084564
>and has never grafted in his life.
Bullshit, by the time they reach high office they've all gotten their taste of that sweet, sweet corruption money.
>>30084894
>this is what they do and it is INEFFECTIVE
I'm advocating str8 cash flow son. Get that $$$ while they shoot each other. Currently we give them more weapons than we sell them.
>>30084490
That kinda scares me, but they certainly
haven't been making a good case for themselves recently...
>>30084609
>the objective in the middle east is "don't let those fuckers get to the point where they can actually point a fight our way"
Nah. That has never been the main goal. They do that on their own... Maybe when it comes to Iran's nuclear program, but that's it.
>>30084953
Maybe they would do the same kind of SR, DA, and FID missions they did against conventional forces in Vietnam, Korea, and WWII? You have basically no knowledge of SOF history if you really think all they can do is shoot goat herders.
>>30081871
I agree.
The early stages in the war in Afghanistan were conducted mostly by SF guiding attack aircraft and coordinating with local resistance forces.
The problem in the end was that the political end was never figured out basically leading to a warlord system which spawned the Taliban in the first place.
>>30082994
Soviets didn't go far enough.
>>30082008
Fucking this.
>>30082184
>It's some neo-Con shit!
>Military industrial complex! Military industrial complex!
Look, these are issues, but you're just being some pseudo-indellectual dick about all of this.
Want something to blame? Blame the liberals, Muslims, and all the other insurgents. We can't have conventional war anymore unless it's nation to nation, and look what we did to the Iraquis. Twice.
The problem is we live in a society that in no way would allow the indiscriminate bombing and rough treatment necessary to take down an army, or ESPECIALLY an insurgency, and ESPECIALLY if some faggot goat fucker in a turban has anything to do with it. We would have to do some seriously fucked shit to accomplish it, and we aren't okay with that at the moment.
COIN was not created to fund the military industrial complex and for political means. COIN was created because we're fighting insurgencies, and you just fight insurgencies completely differently. They don't have uniforms and formations and positions to shell or whatever, so we're stuck playing their dumb fucking games.
Frankly, between all the money spent and how much a waste of time it is, I say we should stay the fuck out if the middle east in particular unless we're ready to wage the new crusade and wipe Islam off the map. It is a little ineffective, but that's just because we're doing what we can with what we have. Fighting an insurgency sucks.
>>30081840
>I don't actually know anything and the closest I've been to experiencing the military or war was being talked at by a recruiter in school but let me show you why Special Forces are bullshit: the thread.
>>30081855
Also, underrated post.
>>30081840
>>30085556
One Beslan-style attack on an American elementary school -- or shopping mall, or amusement park -- would do it.
>>30085538
How about the US's indiscriminate bombing during the Vietnam War?
>>30087746
Not enough, US forces were limited from directly invading North Veitnam and limited in their bombing.
>>30082435
Oh like Vietnam?
Please tell me you're trolling, because that is literally one of the most retarded things I've heard so far, borderline to Tumblr retardation.
>>30081840
>Are special forces the worst thing to happen to western militaries?
>western
GTFO you goat fucker.
>>30087744
>wish a nigga would
>>30085556
>tfw when I've wanted America to turn the entire middle east into a sheet of glass for more than a decade
>tfw people started saying sand niggers aren't all the same
>tfw sand niggers opened the door for fair treatment among all the LGBT faggots because all hoomans are equal and needed to be treated fairly
Fuck the whales, nuke that fucking sandbox.
>>30081840
ITT: the op doesnt understand how wars are fought
>>30085556
>556
nice
anyways who is that twink?
>>30082134
he could shoot you then youd be dead tho..
>>30081871
That stuff is going to be a lot harder to conduct without conventional forces maintaining a foothold. Inside and outside a wire is just where we are in relation to one another.
