How good is the Leopard 2A7 anyway? Especially compared to the T-14 Armata, but also to other mbt in general.
>>29977709
Guess we'll find out when it gets used in combat.
>>29977749
So never?
Does it not cost $33m per unit?
>>29977756
Exactly.
>>29977709
The A7 model is the first Leopard 2 of the Bundeswehr to be fitted with an APU and a BMS, two features which have been around for years on some other MBT.
And it still no A/C.
>>29977709
May look good on paper and GIDF may say it's the best, but it's yet to be combat tested, so we'll never actually know.
The fact that it doesn't use Dorchester\Chobham is a big thing too
>>29977845
>The fact that it doesn't use Dorchester\Chobham is a big thing too
The Burlington/Chobham or whatever you call it had been already demonstrated to West-Germany in 1970.
The decision to adopt this special armor on the Leopard 2 was made in 1976.
It's just a good solid tank.
>>29977931
Germany doesn't use it, they use an indigenous ceramic after having used perforated armor for the first 3 variants.
Leopard 2A7 and other new variants are pretty good. They can still perform well enough to warrant place in top 5 best tanks.
Good engineering more or less and gives Leopard 2 line more mileage for future.
Can't really compare to Armata as we do not know much about Armatas performance outside breaking down in parades and few other pieces. I will carefully say that Leo is better than Armata
>>29978239
>Germany doesn't use it, they use an indigenous ceramic after having used perforated armor for the first 3 variants.
Stop reading Wikipedia and do some serious research.
>>29978385
>thinking Germany uses Chobham/Burlington
>not even attempting to challenge anything that was said and instead ad hominems
k. keep me posted. Or just look up the XM1 and Leo2 AV trials.
>>29977749
>>29977756
>>29977804
welcome to warfare in the 21st century
>>29977818
Man kratus really do have a thing for ovens don't they?
>>29977709
>How good is the Leopard 2A7 anyway?
Good but completely outclassed by T-14 gun and active protection system. Only question do all T-14 systems actually work?
>>29977709
>Especially compared to the T-14 Armata
You could also compare it to an actual tank.
>>29978436
the Leopard 2 has ceramic/kevlar/tungsten/steel composite armour, they just don't call it cuckham/hurrlington super speshul snowflake or whatever.
>>29979147
>le cuck! xddd memem meme
Great argument you have there.
>>29979185
the argument is that just because it doesn't have a stupid special name doesn't make it less of a composite armour.
>>29977709
Germany has a trend of producing powerful tanks. I'd imagine the Leopard 2A7 is an excellent tank. Though, we'll never be sure as the Leopard 2A7 has zero to no combat experience.
>>29979147
>>29978385
Modern tanks armor composition is classified. Wait 50-100 years till these tanks armor diagrams would be actually published then you will have facts to discuss.
>>29979314
the EXACT specifications are classified. the basics aren't classified.
https://books.google.com/books?id=O8JQCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA219&lpg=PA219&dq=leopard+composite+armor&source=bl&ots=LudSN4lMKI&sig=ANGVJ6z1EAsJeMRDqK-PgebwpPo&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiylpivi-LMAhXG1xQKHfWRD1YQ6AEIczAN#v=onepage&q=leopard%20composite%20armor&f=false
>>29979298
A few canadian 2A6s has been to the sandbox, but that doesnt really count.
>>29978274
>Good engineering more or less and gives Leopard 2 line more mileage for future.
They´ve got so many export customers, they will keep on upgrading it until the scandinavians and arabs look for a completely new tank.
>>29979332
And Danish ones that I recall, but I might well be wrong. I think I read they did a bit helping the Royal Anglians or the RMC in Afghanistan? It's been a while since I read those books.
>>29979221
The British are the only ones to really 'name' their armor.
>>29979329
Do you understand that they could write any bullshit about armor in such books? Due to classified nature of tank armor it is literally impossible to check these claims. Proofs don't exist.
>>29979422
>They´ve got so many export customers, they will keep on upgrading it until the scandinavians and arabs look for a completely new tank.
They only exported that much in the first place because they basically gave them away.
>>29978274
>Can't really compare to Armata as we do not know much about Armatas performance outside breaking down in parades and few other pieces.
>Leopard 2 development cycle(taking over from Gilded Leopard project to serial): 1967 - 1979
>T-14 development cycle(taking over from Object 195 to serial) 2010- 2017/8?
>>29978274
>Good engineering more or less and gives Leopard 2 line more mileage for future.
Helps that most of its users (esp. its maker) keep them in the garage and only take them out for token exercises or parades. Meanwhile the Americans and Russians run their machines until they're scrap in which case the former restores them to zero-hour condition with no sweat and the latter just takes another tank from the pile.
>I will carefully say that Leo is better than Armata
Now here is the part where you explain yourself carefully. Even the Germans themselves conceded that the Leo 2 platform is running out of upgrade paths and its time to move on to a new one- heck they practically admitted their current gun and ammo combination won't be enough for the T-14 hence the new 130 mm gun.
T14 is literally a meme tank. Notice how the only people who are declaring it any good are either self hating yuropoors, or vatnicks. Like, this goes beyond hatred for the east, and the trend of having shitty equipment. The T14 uses an unmanned turret, and a fuckload of untested technology. Tank design 101 dictates its less mission capable then other contemporary designs in its class, to include, 3rd generation tanks as well, and 3.5 generation tanks. But hey, the T14 is new I guess?
Also keeping on topic, the Leo2 has better armor and a better gun.
>>29982861
>weeb makes shitpost bingo
>posts it expecting to be taken seriously
How much is Hillary paying you to astroturf as an American?
>>29982876
>shitpost bingo
>having pride in a lemon
Or you could just stay mad, that's fine too.
>>29981787
>admitted their current gun and ammo combination won't be enough for the T-14
What you mean, is that the advancement over eastern armor has closed some. In all situations, the gap should be driven as far as possible in our favor. The DM53 and M829 are more then enough to deal with current threats on the battlefield. The problem arises as you implied, in the subsequent variations of said tanks, when further technology is/isn't developed.
>>29983126
>the gap should be driven as far as possible in our favor.
Apparently the rest of NATO didn't get the memo, otherwise they wouldn't have passed around a Germany's worth of 90s model Leo 2s like a common whore across the continent, and be content with that.
>DM53
Has a penetrator as long as Svinets-1's, and suffers penalty in performance as compared to the latter due to being made of WHA unlike the latter again that is made of DU.
>M829
You mean the round even good old T-72B fucking shits with K-5 is resistant to?
>>29983382
You have a combination of poor reading comprehension and a lack of knowledge of Western tank ammo.
>>29983430
You have a combination of poor reading comprehension and a lack of knowledge of Western tank ammo.
>>29983472
4chan is an 18+ website newfriend
>>29983517
>>29983430
>>29983126
4chan is an 18+ website newfriend(s)
>>29977709
I wonder if there's any meaningful difference between modern western mbt's when you think what they'll realistically ever go against.
bump
>>29977709
T-14 Armata has better cannon, better engine and better systems. But Leopard 2A7 is not something to be underestimated.
T-14 is the best tank in the world so far.
So at best you can fight for the second or third place.
>>29983989
>T-14 Armata has better cannon
Russia finally made a gun+ammo comparable to NATO 120mm's.
>better engine
Needing to do an X cylinder engine configuration to get to 1500hp is going to cause issues in the long run.
>and better systems.
True, it does have a hard kill APS.
>>29978239
The Leopard 2 uses an own developed ceramic armor layout because the British/American Burlington/Chobham armour doesn't provide a weight adventage against KP projectiles.
UK/USA later put some DU into the steel to increase KP protection while the German armour layout was balanced between HE and KP protection from the very beginning.
>>29984095
>gun
Has supposedly 20% more muzzle energy than the L/55, since the gun is shorter its the pressure that is much higher.
>ammo
Penetrator is supposedly 900 mm long, and could be DU or WHA.
>Needing to do an X cylinder engine configuration to get to 1500hp is going to cause issues in the long run.
Heat buildup is indeed a longstanding problem with this type of engine since the cylinders are ridiculously compacted together. AFAIK they've been working on this engine since the 80s and if they managed to squeeze out 1130 hp from the old V-8 designs with use of modern materials and even significantly increase their lifespan its not that hard to believe they solved most of the problems with the X-engine either.
>True, it does have a hard kill APS.
Can only intercept projectiles incoming at more or less level of the tank so its shit :)
>>29984016
this is legit a good design......
>>29984286
kek what is situational awareness ?
>>29984286
> this is legit a good design......
T-14 is big enough inside, btw.
>>29984308
>>29984315
>>29984308
>>29984016
source of pics?
How does the Leopard 2A7 stack up against the Challenger 2 with CLEP systems? What if the L30 is replaced with a smoothbore Rheinmetall L55 that shoots glorious DM53 rounds?
>>29984300
About the same as any other buttoned up AFV if not better. Tbh.
>>29984329
>5:45
https://www.1tv.ru/news/2016/05/15/302189-9_maya_po_krasnoy_ploschadi_proshlo_samoe_novoe_vooruzhenie_kotorym_armiya_gotova_zaschischat_stranu_ot_novyh_ugroz
>>29984335
There is no smoothbore gun planned for the Challenger. It would need a completly new turret.
And the Challenger II is inferior in firepower, armour, mobility.
>>29978546
It's like cold war. Only more boring.
see the large front side of the hull?
That part is barely armored.
>>29984016
>256 critical messages
kek
also
>weapons, protection, mobility menu buttons
we are videogames now
>>29984527
>>29984541
>>29984545
>>29984523
Citation needed.
>>29979332
I would still count it. Apparently one of the Leopard 2a6 that Canada used in afghan got hit by an IED(or mine?) and was still perfect fine, just got tracked a little
>>29984016
>Never seen combat or competed against other vehicles
>best in the world
>>29984581
Implying any other tank except T-series and Abrams seen an actual proper combat, lol.
>>29984564
2 ied's on one of them. They sent it back home to be scrapped cause they where concerned that the hull might be too damaged despite no visual damage. The IED'S just blew off road wheels
>>29984586
So it can't very well be the fucking best tank then can it
>>29984553
M1, Leopard and T-14 have a paper thin side because their chassis are fuck long
>>29984586
>Abrams
>actual proper combat
>not calling air support every time or got blue on blue
>>29984598
Why not? Abrams and, especially, T-series definitely have basic conceptual problems that Armata does not have. Actually Armata program fixed some conceptual problems that all tanks have.
>>29984598
the best tank right now is still T-90A
spotless combat record in Ukraine and only one mission kill in Syria
pic related is the T-90A defended Luhansk airport in 2014
>>29984600
When compared to Chally yeah, it have seen an actual proper combat. I am not even going to compare it to Leo and others.
>>29984607
#T-90Aselfie
>>29984607
bait
>>29984016
Here you go.
>>29984600
>M1, Leopard and T-14 have a paper thin side because their chassis are fuck long
They can always mount thicc skirts for that you know...
And T-14 uses some neat tricks to thiccen up those sides.
>>29984619
>>29984553
It's bullshit.
>>29984626
thick ERA/NERA=2-3 tons
and what trick?
i hear they angle the side tructure plate
>>29984636
>and what trick?
Basically as the picture shows the side isn't of uniform thickness. At the lower part of the hull sides where the suspension arms are attached up to the maximum part reached by those arms when encountering bumps the side hull is thinner and yet sloped inwards, presumably to deflect blast from mines and let mud and dirt slip off instead of gathering and caking in. The rest apart from the area of the front and back wheels(the drive and retaining sprockets are there) are much thicker as I've said.
The T-14 Armata is just a T-90 with a body kit to make it look all spooky.
>>29984664
>The T-14 Armata is just a T-95 with a body kit to make it look all spooky.
FTFU
>>29984655
kinda neat
but it is a fuck long hull, need more ERA skirt to protect, more, engine and autoloader are move further back, can be hit easier
>>29981787
>They only exported that much in the first place because they basically gave them away.
What do you mean?
>>>29977749
>So never?
Russia will soon attack Poland. And Poles are upgrading their leos as we speak.
>>29984607
Insofar, three kills has been reported in syria.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_CL6jPvg9o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rfyeR-YaJw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZkP3zJ-9n4
>>29984724
Second one is not a kill and third one is not even T-90.
>>29984724
You can also post video with the wrecked Abrams from Iraq or Yemen and claim it was the T-90.
>>29984718
>soon...
>>29984684
>but it is a fuck long hull, need more ERA skirt to protect, more, engine and autoloader are move further back, can be hit easier
>>29984724
first one isn't a kill
second one is the mission kill i mentioned
third one is a fake
there also one T-90A reported capture by FSA, pic related
so one mission kill and one captured
>>29984746
don't you see the ERA skirt is two time longer than that of the T-90, T-80U and Leclerc?
it almost look like a TUSK skirt, not a simple side ERA/NERA skirt
>>29984757
Le Clerc for comparison sake
>>29984733
>>29984747
>first not a kill
Turret got penetrated, a mission kill.
>second mission kill
>smoke pouring from the crew compartment
>third not a T-90
Can't say if it is or isn't but whatever it was it took a missile up the ass.
The fuel exploded, no tank would have survived that.
Still widely reported as a T-90 kill.
>>29984774
>Still widely reported as a T-90 kill.
that how propaganda work
the quality of that video is suspicious
FSA tank kill video are mostly high quality
>>29984016
There is absolutely nothing known about the T-14.
All we have is propaganda.
Not even pictures is shown of the new Vacuum APFSDS round, probably faked due to outlandish claims.
Nothing whatsoever on the new ERA, also dubious claims on that one.
For all we know it's still using the same rounds as the T-90.
>>29984789
There are also many other shitty FSA videos out there.
It could very well be a T-90.
So why Russia with its low tier industry and lack of money be able to build a better tank that South Korea for example at the same time?
>>29984794
one thing we know is the 2A82 have higher chamber pressure than 2A46M-1/5 seris
and 3BM44M APFSDS look really nice
>>29984801
if they are, the monkey would jump up and down like crazy
>>29984807
worst Korea have pump out more than 100 K2
and T-14 is just a prototype tank with more than 5 prototype
keep in mind that K-2 is just a Leopard 2A6 knock off with hydropneumatic suspension
>>29984807
They're not. It's just claimed greatness
>>29984819
>and T-14 is just a prototype tank with more than 5 prototype
Unless the Russians have mastered the art of getting everyone drunk just by looking at their antics wasn't there like 14 tanks in the parade alone?
>>29984807
Competitive advantage, Adam Smith, homework for the day, dismissed.
>>29984819
>if they are, the monkey would jump up and down like crazy
They do that if they pop a jeep, if a goat gives birth or if the wind blows slightly from the northeast.
Snackbaring is not a good way to ID tanks
>>29984839
i am kinda drunk
there was like 10 tank ready for last year parade
>>29984794
>Not even pictures is shown of the new Vacuum APFSDS round, probably faked due to outlandish claims.
FSB must be doing its job well then. Or you could just you know, scour vk for dembels dumb enough to take pics and post them like that dude who leaked the best picture yet we have of the Obj. 195.
>>29984819
>3BM44M APFSDS look really nice
Probably the best you can get from the cramped T-90 auto loader dimensions. Still a far cry from the alleged +1000mm that the new propaganda round.
>>29984855
is the propaganda round the 152mm one?
i remember reading something about the 152mm APDSFS with 1000mm pen
>>29984850
Given that the russians are fucking terrible at OPSEC, it's far more likely that no Vacuum exists yet.
Russia always parades new stuff around as soon as they have it, if they had this super APFSDS they would a least make a big deal about it.
>>29984860
>is the propaganda round the 152mm one?
Nah, they are trying to make us believe that they'll get 900-1100 out of a upgraded 125mm cannon.
Needless to say, the west is not all that concerned by these claims.
>>29984860
A few vids claim the proposed 152mm gun can just blow a turret off its ring.
>>29984839
>Competitive advantage, Adam Smith, homework for the day, dismissed.
>Adam Smith
If a foreign country can supply us with a commodity cheaper than we ourselves can make it, better buy it of them with some part of the produce of our own industry employed in a way in which we have some advantage. The general industry of the country, being always in proportion to the capital which employs it, will not thereby be diminished ... but only left to find out the way in which it can be employed with the greatest advantage."
So how does it apply to Russia's tank ambitions?
Russian's industry declined in the post-Cold War world and most of the better engineers aren't forced anymore to work in Russia for nothing but do have the whole world
>>29984016
so much room, makes me wonder where all the armor went
>>29977749
Will a tank ever fight another tank again?
>>29984605
>conceptual problems
like?
>>29984879
There have been tank v tank engagements in Ukraine and I'm pretty sure in the ME
>>29984893
how did they go
>>29984879
It litterally happens almost every week.
>>29984898
the Russian won by GRAD
>>29984860
>>29984865
https://forums.bistudio.com/topic/183435-rhs-escalation-afrf-and-usaf/page-252
>>29984898
The few frontal engagements nothing happened. They where primarily T-62 - 64 's there was a couple sabot hits to turret rings and lower glacier which destroyed the tanks and one where a base model t-64 copped a hit to the front upper glacier and the armour composites caught is but spalling killed the driver
>>29984942
there also a DNR T-72B 1989 with a hole in the lower glacis
>>29984950
>>29984861
>Given that the russians are fucking terrible at OPSEC, it's far more likely that no Vacuum exists yet.
Believe what you will, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and all that jazz.
>>29984865
>Needless to say, the west is not all that concerned by these claims.
What is this then?
>>29984871
>most of the better engineers aren't forced anymore to work in Russia
Not everybody is in it just for the money. Most who are really good at what they're doing are true autists in their field and find satisfaction in the fact plus a lot are actually patriots.
>>29984969
"true autists in their field" that explains the turret shell design
>>29984969
>What is this then?
Ugly as fuck, that's what that is.
What the fuck is those tumors on the turret face and why not extend the to cover the whole plate?
>>29984950
Thanks
>>29985018
Because you silly fucking sod those are weight simulators to see how well the suspension and whatnot handle a heavier armour package
>>29985023
>weight simulators
I feel physically relieved that no army will have to roll around in a tank looking like that.
>>29984969
>What is this then?
Something that was in the chute already.
>>29985018
Those are weight simulators.
Jesus, RIDF is trying really hard today
>>29984598
>T14 uses an unmanned turret
>1 benefit is its smaller then other nations tanks turrets
And its still as big as the T72s littering the middle east.
>>29984626
>T-14 uses some neat tricks to thiccen up those sides.
So basically Russia learned what the US has been doing for 2 decades already.
>>29985105
>>29985102
>>29985050
autism poster
>>29985129
>assblasted vodka nigger
cute
>>29979329
>68.6-ton Leopard 2
>AMX-56 Leclerc
This book has just lost all of its credibility in one page.
>>29985153
>implying i am slav
nice autism
>>29985187
>vodka nigger gets mad
why so salty, my bleached nigger friend? :^)
>>29985204
>implying i am mad
witnessing your autism make my day
>>29985212
>parroding words he doesn't understand
truly, he is mad
my aids ridden russ nigger friend, there is literally no need for all that salt you can leave anytime, feel free to do so
>>29985225
pardon me, you are the one need to leave
>>29985235
> you are the one need to leave
I need to? haha
what are you going to do it i don't leave?
>>29985105
>So basically Russia learned what the US has been doing for 2 decades already.
Everyone has been doing it at some point(Even the T-64/72/80 has it), just not to the extent the T-14 has it.
>>29985038
>Something that was in the chute already.
The T-14 didn't appear out of nowhere either.
>>29985018
>What the fuck is those tumors on the turret face and why not extend the to cover the whole plate?
Weight sim for the awaited uparmoring (what do you think all those weight saving measures like replacing copper wiring with fiber optics is for?)
>>29985017
>"true autists in their field" that explains the turret shell design
Can't exactly expect morons to understand good design, its like explaining to a monkey.
>>29985251
>I need to?
because of your autism
>what are you going to do it i don't leave?
simple, stop replying to you
>>29985296
>>29985296
>>Can't exactly expect morons to understand good design,
>it's good! don't ask me why because i couldn't tell you!
nice
>>29985204
>>29985153
>>29985105
>>29985102
>>29985050
>>29985321
>>29985225
>>29985316
>>29985316
are you actually retarded?
jesus christ! this is hilarious!
>>simple, stop replying to you
>does reply to me
I think we all know who is the guy with autism
Spoiler: It's you.
>>29985324
>>29985326
Are you trying to beat with the aussies on shitposting?
>>29985324
>>29985326
>more vatnik tears
yummi
this thread became a salt mine!
>>29982861
>Unmanned turrent
>Implying this is bad
Nigger, it has almost always been a problem for tanks which people have been trying to develop past. There is a reason why even the united states is looking into drone tanks and shit.
I know this is bait, but why is it that every claim against this tank is practically in all ways not even related to it's capabilities or prowress, but practically just "WHAT IF SOMETHING BAD HAPPENS"
>>29985331
>are you actually retarded?
> guy with autism
top tier autism right here
>>29985339
>>29985339
he has to, they get paid by the post
the month is over soon and our little pickle beet nigger has not to pay his rent
>>29985331
Muh 'Tism: The Thread
>>29985339
>Are you trying to beat with the aussies on shitposting?
Better a bogan than a cleetus.
>>29985341
>Projecting this fucking hard.
>>29985346
you're the only one with autism in here, didn't you noticed that?
Well this threads gone to fuck
>>29985347
>the month is over soon and our little pickle beet nigger has not to pay his rent
They don't pay rent. Yeltsin that drunk fuck in one his rare moments of sobriety sold/gave the apartments to their tenants. Hence the massive RIDF reserves :)
>>29985296
>Everyone has been doing it at some point(Even the T-64/72/80 has it), just not to the extent the T-14 has it.
130mm main gun
3
0
m
m
m
a
i
n
g
u
n
>>29979147
>they just don't call it cuckham/hurrlington super speshul snowflake or whatever.
It's like you're actually retarded and can't read the posts you're replying to.
>>29984236
The post you're replying to says that it didn't use it for a few variants.
>>29979020
>>29985393
>>29985296
>what do you think all those weight saving measures like replacing copper wiring with fiber optics is for?
They say that they'll save almost a 1000 kg in copper wiring alone.
That means that an additional 4500 Big Macs can be carried inside the tank and in external storage.
For a crew of four Americans, that means that they gain almost 24h extra operational time before replenishment by supply vehicles is needed.
That is a major advantage to the T-14, vodka and krokodil is much more energy dense meaning that the russians get more operational time for less weight and thus less taxing on the logistics.
>>29985525
>supply vehicles is needed.
>There is a reason why even the united states is looking into drone tanks and shit.
Its as simple as throwing a new box of MREs on the top. The hardest part about resupplying is refilling a watercan.
>>29985342
Yea, its called DARPA. The whole programs intent is to develop next generation technology ahead of anyone else. No one said the technology is worth it. To include drone tanks, which will not be relevant for 50 years, at the least.
>I know this is bait
Except its not bait, its grabbing at every deficiency straw it can with the T14, you can sweep the issues under the rug, but that doesn't make them go away. theres about 5 or 6 extremely valid points in the pic, of WHY umanned turrets are a terrible concept.
>why is it that every claim against this tank is practically in all ways not even related to it's capabilities or prowress
> practically in all ways not even related to it's capabilities or prowress
>related to it's capabilities
>capabilities
funny, in every single T14 shitpost thread, valid arguments are made of how LESS CAPABLE the tank is with handicaps like an unmanned turret, but we can pretend to be ignorant, and self validate our own opinions but just opting out of not arguing, that's a reasonable form of discussion too.
>>29977709
right now every tank BTFO's armata out of the water since it's nowhere near finished yet.
Leopards are pretty good.
Overall the tank wars between western MBT's boil down to graphics card tier autism where people tell others to dip themselves into vat of acid over 1-2 FPS difference in some games.
>>29985418
>The post you're replying to says that it didn't use it for a few variants.
And that is bullshit.
