Does anyone know of a substitute for gunpowder that takes up much less room in the case?
Would small amounts of RDX or something work?
Sure use RDX, what's the worst that could happen?
>>29923796
This is one of those rare moments where we get to witness the beginning of the end of someone
>>29923796
Try it and report back from the hospital
>>29923796
>Would small amounts of RDX or something work?
>>29923796
Black powder, longer barrel
>>29923796
why not nitroglycerin, you don't even need a primer!
>>29923886
>much less room in the case
>>29923918
Pack it down tight bruh
>>29923796
>Would small amounts of RDX or something work?
Pretty sure that's exactly what they used for Project Eldest Son
>>29923926
>>29923802
>>29923823
>>29923861
OP here.
You guys are aware that guns operate by controlled explosions?
Y'all do know this, right?
>>29923971
Same concept with cars, which is why I use hydrazine instead of gasoline
>>29923971
Really? I thought they ran on Hoppes and space magic
>>29923971
You do realize that not all explosives are the same, right?
>>29923971
I didn't realize that. Go ahead with your experiment.
>>29923971
>doesn't know the difference between accelerants that burn generating pressure from expanding gasses and explosives which generate a (nearly) uniform shock-wave in all directions
>what is explosive yield
requesting shotgun shells filled with napalm picture
>>29924007
Engines that run off gunpowder have been created.
>>29924016
<_<
>>29924019
Yea, but I'm at my wits end. I know gunpowder deflagrates and RDX detonates but I just don't know what else there is. I basically need to be able to achieve ballistic speed with a few grains of low volume material.
Hi OP,
There are probably many options to make very compact gun powders with modern chemicals. But I do not know of any civilian available ones.
See these videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTAKr3Y2EV0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en384qVqrug
>>29924060
Fuck it, we would all love to see your experiment realized, and after you lose your hands you may even get a free visit from the ATF.
>>29924060
Just throw both in one case.
I'm sure it'll be fine. Its not like pressure has a great deal to do with the speed of ignition or anything.
>Heckler and Koch formed a partnership with Dynamit Nobel who redesigned the cartridge to use a new High Ignition Temperature Propellant (HITP). The cook-off problem was reduced, by using a denatured HMX propellant with a special binder and coating for the ammunition that increased the spontaneous ignition temperature
>>29923796
>substituting a burning powder for an actual explosive
>ops face after
>>29923971
so your idea is to create an uncontrolled explosion in the same volume and see what happens?
JESUS CHRIST.
I'm talking about A FEW GRAINS.
I'm trying to figure out which propellant will work with a caseless design I'm pondering that's basically a bullet with a hollow end filled with propellant.
The problem I'm looking at is 1)incredibly small volume 2) I can't think of anything powerful enough that will work in such small quantities.
I was thinking some kind of explosive that can be detonated electrically but not by heat.. that would be ideal.
Someone posted a Russian pistol that had 43 round magazines and I think it used this design principle, not sure.
>>29924358
Are you the OP that was trying to recreate that Calico weapon prop mini-gun thing that was supposed to hold 1k rounds of .223?
cellulose hex
enjoy making that shit
>>29924419
Yes. A handheld lightweight minigun that carries a thousand rounds in each magazine.
I'd say the magazine would be a little longer than a hundred round 9mm Calico mag..
And so far, after the feedback I'm even more sure it's possible.
>>29923926
Would this work with smokeless pistol powder? The molecule contains both the fuel and the oxidizer, so there's no need for the propellant to be powdered, right? Air doesn't need to circulate or anything.
I'm trying to figure out if it's possible to make the gun from Deep Rising a reality.
>>29924567
Even if it was possible, its lack of practicality would outweigh everything else tenfold.
You're f00kin mental m8
>>29923796
Cordite
>>29924678
>20-30 pound rifle
>1000 rounds per magazine
>magazine is only as big as two 32oz beer cans
>rate of fire is ridiculously high but the mag lasts practically forever
And how is this not an AMAZING idea?
>>29924682
Cordite isn't energy dense enough.
>>29924734
Free energy is an amazing idea too
>>29924746
how about Uranium-235
>>29924779
And solar panels are INCREDIBLE, and Tesla Motors is making House Batteries that are AMAZING and li-ion tech is going places, and one day energy could literally be virtually free.
Go live in a damn cave and stop being pessimistic about humanities advancements.
>>29924826
That would be amazing but the I don't think it's a good idea or practical.
>>29924060
if you dont see the limits of what you are requesting, you are the last person that needs to be attempting what you are. your pistol is a honed machine, built to hold and shoot bullets that follow an industry standard. the bullets also assume the gunpowder is standard. if you want to do something new, start from the ground up. again, because you didnt know that already, i have to assume you are mostly incompetent, and the tone of the entirety of your posts only confirms it
you are either a child, moron, or troll. and if you are ATF, you are all 3
>>29924917
>literally be virtually
None of those options you mentioned are free by any means. Your weapon idea a shit, your waifu a shit, and you should consider suicide.
>>29924951
Dude, fuck off.
Go steal candy from kids and pop their birthday balloons if you get off by crushing people's dreams.
Get out of my thread.
I'm basically wanting to make a multi-barreled reliable Calico or Bizon that uses caseless ammunition.
>>29924998
They can pay for themselves, though. And you can sell the excess energy. Fuck off.
Why the fuck do you guys just want to jerk off to firearm accessories and traps, but have fuck all to contribute to actual ideas?
>OP makes thread about making what essentially would be a hand grenade, only you don't throw it.
>Gets told why it's a bad idea
>gets ass blasted
Quality thread.
The power curve on RDX is too fast.
You need a filler that will slow down the RDX.
And a shaped charge to push the bullet down the barrel that will not shatter the bullet.
I think a explosive formed projectile like a copper plate super heated to a plasma bolt would be better with RDX. A rifle version of the IED's.
>>29925072
I admire your persistence sir.
Here's a suggestion; take your idea to night /k/, they'll have better advice. If you still get told you're an idiot, then it's probably true and you should give up.
There has been some things with liquid fuels like gasoline and diesel fuel. Normally they require oxygen to be added - but some chemicals...
Very very nice controllable pressure profiles with a very light weight fuel. Shoot all day on a cup of gas...
But the mechanix and devil in the details things are a giant bitch. Electronics helps a lot to control it all but still can't match an old cartridge in real world use.
>>29925122
>/k/ thinks a few grains of RDX instead of gunpowder will destroy a weapon built to handle it
>But I'm the idiot
>>29925163
Oh no, it's no doubt I'm an idiot like everyone else here.
>>29925263
Not that guy, but there is a major difference between a short, powerful explosion and a slower burn.
In simpler terms: a bullet is more dangerous than a punch.
>>29923796
You are fighting an uphill battle here against specific energy, energy density, and stability.
CL-20, for example, has a higher energy density that HMX, but has to be cut with plastic to make it stable for volatile uses, putting it on par with HMX.
Between relative performance and cost, interest in reinventing the small arms wheel is low. Your idea isn't new. I have 2000 pic related. They suck ass.
To be honest, you need something fundamentally different from current chemical propellant. I would say a volatile metal that launches a self-stabilizing projectile from an oversized smooth bore barrel to reduce the pressure issues of rapid decomposing explosives or explosive alternatives.
>>29924080
The fuck happened to the poor thing?
>>29925353
Squib bullet stopped about 2 inches in front of the muzzle brake. Massive air space turned it into a bomb as the next round was fired. $10,000 gone in 1/1000th of a second there.
>>29925314
>I have two thousand of pic related
>they suck ads
If you could them at 1000rds/min and they came in 1000 round magazines, would you still think they suck ass?
....see my point?
I'm not reinventing anything.
I'm saying we have already established the technology to make handheld lightweight miniguns with thousands of rounds that can be easily carried a reality.
>>29925437
>.50 BMG
>squib
I wonder if there was a lawsuit
>>29925452
Probably some moron tried to hand load to save a few bucks... You will note how all firearm makers desperately try to warn morons not to load their own ammo unless they are rocket scientists or real men that can deal with it...
>>29924358
And a "few grains" of RDX is enough to remove an entire arm, and just in case the trauma and blood loss from that didn't kill you, fuck with your internal organs via overpressure.
RDX is one of the...more energetic...of high-order explosives. I mean, it's what C4 is made out of except C4 is mixed with other shit to be less sensitive and energetic.
Okay so anyway, since I really wish you do this and lose a limb or two:
>most pistol and shotgun powders contain nitroglycerin, because they're relatively compactable, fast burning powder
>take one of the superfast fine-flake powders (Titegroup, H110, or N110 for example) designed for pistols and rifles
>mix it into an ALCOHOL slurry (dont use water), pack into base of your special-snowflake light-for-caliber .22cal bullet, let dry
>yes, you only got like 2 grains in there. We know that. 2 grains of Titegroup will push a 115gr 9mm bullet to ~900fps while being very low on pressure. With a bullet half that weight and pressures about 3x higher, you'll be up there on velocity
Just post pics the first few times your gun fucksplodes because you cannot into pressure vesels and having it in the base of the bullet where it can swedge the bullet out instead of propel it forward will guarantee a KB.
>>29925263
>some random idiot on the internet thinks anything compact and light enough to be used as a projectile weapon could contain the explosive force of a few grains of RDX
No, this is a shit thread, you're a shit person with shit ideas, and you're gonna kill or maim yourself.
>>29923971
You're also aware that one of the things we do to fuck up insurgents is to replace the gunpowder in bullets with proper explosives so their guns turn into shrapnel bombs, right?
>>29925441
They are ignited with high pressure air. They don't work well enough to fire 1000rds/min.
I am saying that you are going to be well off the beaten path of small arms. Most armies are leery of the bill of soldiers firing 700 rds/min from 30rd magazines. They would have to be sold on the idea somehow, and the lackluster performance of caseless ammo in the past colors their decisions today.
Also, firing caseless in a minigun is likely to overheat the action due to lack of case to heatsink for it.
>>29925504
Really? RDX is THAT powerful? I thought nitroglycerin was more powerful, and a few grains of that could be isn't enough to take an arm off. People regularly hit a couple drops of nitroglycerin with a hammer to prove the reaction was successful.
RDX is nitrated hexaminine, right?
And is Titegroup really that efficient?
Also I don't have anywhere near the money or equipment to actually build this shit, it's just a pet idea that's been in my mind ever since I was a little kid and watched the movie.
Find a fissile element on the island of stability and design a primer that emulates a 'gun' type nuclear bomb. Boom.
>>29925587
Yea, and they use more than a FEW MILLIGRAMS to do that.
>>29925622
I'm not really interested in securing a military contract to sell them, I just want to know if it's possible and if it's possible, how to do it. For reasons.
>>29925660
I mentioned that because the entire philosophy you are trying to operate under was thoroughly investigated by the US military during the Cold War.
Everything from caseless, to duplex, to flechette came of their work (or money).
Fuck, it was hard to find. Your idea, at 800-1000rds/min, the Benelli CB-M2.
>>29925072
you are barking up the wrong tree if you think propellant ballistics have any place in future technology. its no mistake that 200 year old weapons are the mainstay in the world. its because you arent allowed to use anything stronger
>>29925720
>that pic
Brilliant idea.
Tons of ideas were researched during the cold war, you should see the spacecraft concepts they came up with.
>>29925765
>you aren't allowed to use anything stronger
Source, please.
>>29924080
It's already available: Bullseye
There ARE Bullseye loads (just a few grains) for rifles that you can find. No reloading manual will publish them because there have been reports of Bullseye doing weird things in large cartridges, like detonating and blowing up the gun.
But yes, high energy pistol powders are super-compact and used in very small amounts.
>>29925627
Tightgroup is scary efficient. A typical load just covers the bottom of the case and can be hard to see. A double charge could blow up the gun.
>>29923819
>>29923796
Ebin trole post
>>29924080
Protip that is a Sako TRG42 dumb nigger faggot
>>29925452
Well, it isn't a .50 BMG for one. It is a TRG42
>>29923796
Project Eldest Son
>>29924734
>20-30 pound rifle
lemme stop you right there
>>29923971
>You guys are aware that guns operate by controlled explosions?
Gunpowder isn't an explosive you retarded fuck, it's a propellant.
>>29924917
>And solar panels are INCREDIBLE
No they're not, solar power is fucking awful compared to just about anything else.
>>29926960
Hmmm.... thanks. Seems like a great candidate.
Can you compress smokeless powder and have it still function ok? As in, a solid pill sized mass of smokeless. If it ignites will it still produce the same results?
>>29927007
I'm not trolling in the least. Granted, before I figure out how to make the gun from the movie, I should learn how to make the monsters... but that would probably be much, much harder.
>>29927051
Oh, I just looked at the muzzle brake and went "damn, barrets are expensive, too"
>>29927564
I'm not talking about using enough explosive to blow up a gun. I'm talking just enough to get good velocities.
>>29927919
It would be about 10 pounds of ammo, and 20 pounds for everything else. Maybe a little less.
>>29924448
....What is cellulose hex?
>>29925627
It was a bit of an overstatement, but yeah RDX is pretty scary powerful. I'm not entirely sure on the formula but hexamine is a base material in it. I think it's triple nitrated.
Yes, Titegroup is very...efficient? It's a very low bulk, fast-burning powder. Typical 124gr 9mm charge is like 3.8gr (for something like 1180fps) and my 9mm's will cycle with as little as 1.9gr behind a 124gr bullet. It's also a *very* fine flake powder that meters extremely well and is very low bulk.
And you really can't have a hollow-base bullet made out of normal bullet materials packed full of propellant, all you'll do is swage the sides of the hollow base into the barrel and blow up the gun.
>>29924917
>Solar panels are great
>U235 is a potential propellant for small arms
Go take a basic physics course.
>>29928011
>can you compress smokeless powder and have it still function ok?
Depends on how much you compress it...but generally yes. Won't act exactly like uncompressed powder but it is predictable and repeatable.
Compressed loads (between 1% and 10% compression) are a thing for rifles, though they're almost exclusively done with long-grain stick powders and there's still a large amount of air in between the granules.
You'd be better off with a binding agent and little to no compression.
>>29924746
Horseshit. The Brits used it for decades.
>>29928065
As efficient as Titegroup sounds, I don't know if it's compact enough.. look at a .223 bullet and image a dimple or small hollow in the back. That's my space limitation.
>you'll do is swage the sides of the hollow base into the barrel and blow up the gun.
The path of least resistance is still the same as with any other gun, and look at the picture in this post >>29925720 Apparently, it works just fine.
Personally, I'm just worried about countering excess barrel wear in a cost effective way in case I actually build this one day and the military wants it.
>>29928074
Dude, solar panels are only getting better. And I was being sarcastic about U235. Kinda pissed about all the people shooting down my dream of a lightweight 1000 round minigun.
>>29928112
I mean actual hard compression. Like how they turn powders into pills. I believe the molecule contains both the oxidizer and the fuel, so oxygen access has nothing to do with it. Maybe I could fine mill the propellant into a powder and mix it with a powder of some kind of chemical that enhances it?
>>29928139
Two grains of cordite will not propel a 60 grain .22 caliber projectile to 3500 feet per second.
That is the kind of energy density I'm looking for.
And I'm looking for a propellant that won't cook off from heat.
>>29928212
Grinding a powder even finer than it already is makes it even faster combusting. You'd drive pressures through the roof trying to compact something like Titegroup enough to turn it into a solid without a binding agent.
And gimme a minute and I'll show you how fucking little 2 grains of Titegroup actually is.
>>29928352
Yes... but after I grind it, I would compact it into one solid mass. Like how pill presses turn powders into solid pills.
I don't have a lot of space to work with, either.
>>29928385
This is 2.2gr of Titegroup.
I'll post a second picture in a minute showing how it fills about 1/8th of a standard 9x19 case.
>>29928422
>>29928422
>>29928433
Ehhh....
I need more with less.
Remember I'm trying to figure out how you can fit 1000 bullets into a 100 round 9mm magazine.
I don't think the propellant I need to make it happen exists yet.
Or I'll need to change the bullet size.
I don't know... instead of a 60-70 grain bullet I suppose I could live with a 20-30 grain bullet in order to make room for the propellant and still get the velocity I need.
>>29928469
That's what we've been saying the whole fucking thread.
ESPECIALLY if you're trying to break 3000fps with it. The only things that have enough energy density to get even close to that are true, full-blown high explosives that are powerful enough we don't have the metallurgy to make a pressure vessel that is both man-portable and able to contain the explosion, even in very small quantities.
>>29928498
It's fine though. The projectile weighs less than a penny. An explosive follows the path of least resistance.
And, no, that's not what "you've" been saying this whole thread.
The whole thread was just laughing thinking I'm dumb and going to use basically what is salted ammunition when that was never my intention just because I considered RDX as a propellant option.
>>29928890
Error unknown meme
>>29928890
was ist das meme?
>>29926876
One giant problem with trying to load super hot powder into a standard cartridge is the left over air space! Powder burning mixed with a volume of air space just turns the mess into a bomb!
Either you need to fill the extra space with some inert shit or you need to design the whole show for the new cartridge with no excessive space.
There are a giant number of new options for high energy powders really, but they are very limited by the old gun designs that cannot dance with them. You might be better off trying to find inert things to fill all that extra space with.
>>29925504
Stop dicking with him, the G11 uses a derivative of RDX
It burns. Detonation is not something you want.
>>29925660
>a couple grains of RDX
>a FEW MILLIGRAMS
Whoa there, buddy.
I think you need to learn the basics of science and conversions before you even start to do any kind of physical experimenting.
I mean, you can go ahead and blow yourself to shit with a rifle turned grenade filled with 180 milligrams of RDX because that's only a 'few' grains to you.
I just hope you record it and have it uploaded after they bury your headless arm-less corpse.
>>29928603
ITT OP doesn't listen to anyone AND doesn't know engineering
>>29925936
>Source, please.
do you or anyone you know own an automatic firearm?
>>29924734
What are you going to do with all of the heat that normally gets carried away by the brass?
>>29924951
>you are either a child, moron, or troll. and if you are ATF, you are all 3
Lost it right there.
Toilet bowl cleaner and aluminum foil
>>29931373
It would have multiple chambers and a cooling system.
Basically I'd have to treat the whole gun like a heat sink to get to be able to get through a few magazines with no break.
>>29924358
He returns
>>29924567
Wasn't your idea thoroughly debunked with an entire thread filled with reasons why you're fucking retarded, or at least insane. You even admitted that you have no fucking clue what you're doing.
>>29925072
>Have fuck to contribute to actual ideas
>Continues to push this inane and naive idea on /k/ thinking that it's actually practical, or even feasible
You 'avin a goggle, m8?
ITT: People whow should lrn2chemistry
>>29932983
No... You're thinking of all the anons talking about the failures and problems of caseless ammunition experiments, while they totally ignored the successes.
>>29933025
Well, if you have a dream but no idea how to make it happen, asking questions is your only option.
>>29933166
>>29925157
>EFP rounds
You might be on to something here, I'll draw up some sort of concept using that.
>>29923971
>i dont know the difference between a propellent and an explosive
google "smokeless powder muzzle-loader youtube"
>>29933782
OP here, I didn't realize how brilliant that post was until you made me do a double take. Thanks. Explosively formed bullets... That's a winner idea in my book.
>>29933895
Black powder is more of an explosive than smokeless powder. It's just less powerful. Black powder burns much quicker than smokeless, it virtually detonates.
Anyways, if you use smokeless powder in a muzzle loader you'll be surprised how well it holds up. A hundred years ago people tried using smokeless powder in wrought iron antiques... And they blew up. Today people shoot smokeless powder in modern steel repros and think it's ok.
Even the cheapest modern repro is much stronger than an original model.
>>29933261
Omg it's Mr Rogers I better watch out
>>29933982
Finished concept sketch. Rifling would likely be impossible with this design meaning accuracy may suck but the basica idea is that the projectile is given time to form into a slug before being compressed by the barrel.
>>29934027
Fucking 4chan rotating my pic...
>>29933982
>Anyways, if you use smokeless powder in a muzzle loader you'll be surprised how well it holds up
>people shoot smokeless powder in modern muzzle-loaders and think its OK
no they don't. that is never recommended and incredibly dangerous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en384qVqrug
pretty basic but I believe your knowledge is limited to scientific texts you cant understand and lighting things on fire.
>>29925497
Chemical control IT head in an R & D lab here.
Maybe it's deterred from research since the powers that be don't want a cheap self made round not requiring extensive machines and metallurgy processes?
I will lay a bet that someone has pulled off case less ammo that works, and was taken care of by other means.
It's not just the financial boogeyman of the situation. It's the passive suppression of freedom.
I suppose one could load up cheap ammo and test fire it on a a test bed of a block of steel with a straight pipe. Then size the explosive and receiver by trial error.
My guess is that it can be made for an industrial sized cannon on a truck or plane, but so heavy and unwieldy for man sized use.
>>29932947
Yes, it's me.
With the same stupid ideas to try to reduce weight but ironically make heat problems more of an issue.
>>29934027
Actually, an "EFP" will be accurate if you get it to engage rifling AND have aerodynamic qualities suitable for range.
>>29934060
Dude, I meant people have accidentally done it and been fine. Yea, your not supposed to do it by any means, but modern metallurgy is much better than it used to be with old muzzle loaders and percussion revolvers. Shit, dude, when Ruger tested the Old Army they used a cylinder packed full of Bullseye and it didn't deform or explode.
>>29934262
>not man portable
Unacceptable.
>>29934274
I designed it as a smoothbore, hence my expectations of poor accuracy. I suspect scoring the projectile disc could allow it to shape correctly to engage rifling, but I'm not going to bother with that right now. My design is more intended for pistols or SMGs for short-range use, trying to make a longer range rifle would likely negate the benefits of the EFP ammunition. With my concept, ammunition would be fairly light and compact (each round would be the same size or shorter than the case for standard ammo of equivalent caliber), cheaper and simpler to produce (possibly) and higher velocity with a smaller (potentially same weight though) and more aerodynamic projectile.
>>29934424
To add to this, standard autoloader casings (e.g. 9mm or .45ACP) could be used for this, though a thicker chamber wall would be required. I retract my earlier statement that the projectile could be the same weight as one from a standard round; that would be physically impossible with a flat disc.
>>29928038
>"guncotton"
cellulose hexanitrate
