Thinking of getting this in 9mm or .45, anyone tried it out and can explain why it isnt the best ammo ever invented?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr6h44Pu4sM
>no recoil
>penetrates body armor
>excellent fragmentation
>accurate
>clean
>stops inside it's target
Is there anything wrong with this ammo?
>>29820930
Doesn't have a proven track record like gold dots or hsts.
Are you planning on shooting people with body armor?
>>29820979
No but if it doesn't over penetrate and it has lower recoil plus it would go through hypothetical body armor it seems absolutely perfect.
Its not even expensive
it's great for hunting small game like rabbits or squirrels
>>29820996
Yes still penetrates body armor, has lower recoil, and wont kill your neighbors through walls.
Not even trolling, where is the flaw?
>>29820930
>High velocity + fragmentation = low penetration and poor performance after encountering something other than soft tissue
I want my rounds to be able to slice open vital organs and hopefully the spinal cord after encountering bone and cartilage like say an out stretched arm with weapon in hand or a rib.
Just penetrating skin is 3-4 inches in ballistics gel. No idea how many inches bone constitutes in gel.
FBI learned their lesson on not to trust lightweight fast fragmenting bullets after the FBI shootout, most of their handgun bullets have remained transonic between 900 and 1200 fps.
If this round was hot shit then Federal Air Marshals Service and the US Secret Service would have adopted it.
Their current hot shit "kill terrorists/protect the President" round still remains the .357 SIG Gold Dot bonded hollowpoint.
There's not much reason to abandon the big three LE contract hollowpoints.
Federal HST
Speer Gold Dot
Winchester Ranger/Ranger Bonded (PDX1/Defend in their civilian line)
>>29821010
>Most men can punch through a drywall sheet with moderate force
>Most men can't punch through a guy's rib and hit his heart
>I want ammo that can be stopped from penetrating something that doesn't stop a moderately hard punch
>>29821013
Thanks for the info but inability to go through body armor and 30% more recoil seem like quite the downside to my current PDX ammo. I feel like I am missing something because I am tired
>>29821067
liberty defense shills please go
Light fast pistol bullets with low sectional density tend to break up and frag before reaching any critical organs. Do you really want a round that will frag into harmless pieces if it goes through your assailant's forearm before impacting their chest?
>>29821067
The ability to go through body armor is just due to being fast enough to cut through strong cloth. The extreme light weight makes it less likely to penetrate wet material like human tissue or thick, hard material like human bone.
The fragmentation and weight of the fragments resembles that of a CCI segmented .22LR, which is considered by most to be a bad idea to use for self defense. The bullet only penetrates 1.5 inches in gel before peeling off, so the bullet would theoretically start peeling before it got halfway through cutting the skin. When it loses weight that fast, it loses the density needed to penetrate hard bone or to make it the remaining 9 inches to someone's heart through an arm or from the side.
There is no such thing as a free lunch.
>>29821067
I have a mag of liberty defense ammo for home defense.
But this is really just because if someone breaks in I want to cause them immense amounts of shocking pain via 4-5 exploding bullets and I'd kind of rather they not die.
I looked HEAVILY into liberty defense ammo in a variety of testing methods and what I've found is that, in all likelihood, the fragments will perhaps crack rib bone but will not actually penetrate beyond rib bone. Not reliably, at least.
I have a mag of Gold Dot for when I'm out and about. But at home I load Liberty Defense due to sadist power issues.
>>29821150
This was the answer I was looking for
>>29821010
the shit tier penetration, mr physics understudy.
like i said, i wouldnt hesitate to use it on taking rabbits or birds or squirrels, but i definitely wouldnt expect it to punch through jamals puffer jacket
>>29821200
Got it, is winchester PDX the best to go with for .45 then?
Also is there any reason not to use hollowpoints for .45 or 9mm?
>>29821067
PDX is superior by miles, its one of if not the best bullets available for pistol calibers right now
>>29821237
Federal HST is the gold standard right now. Speer Gold Dot is also good.
>>29821097
AKA, hitting the assailant with birdshot.
>>29821237
if your gun cant reliably feed hollow points, then dont use them.
if you cant afford to practice with the hollowpoints you depend on, then dont use them
>>29821237
>any reason not to use hollowpoints
Reason 1: They're illegal where you live
Reason 2: The only gun you own jams unless it's only fed FMJ
If neither of the above apply, use hollowpoints.
For .45 you can use anything from the major ammunition manufacturers without much hassle. If you want lower recoil, the new Winchester Defend has less recoil than the older PDX1.
>>29821276
I seriously hope you meant shooting a full magazine every range trip and not doing all of your target shooting with hollowpoint.
>>29821276
You don't need to practice with your carry ammo that often. Maybe a mag's worth of drills every other week is plenty. You just need to know where it prints at various distances, recoil impulse intricacies are not going to meaningfully affect your defensive shooting.
>>29821295
What modern gun jams with hollowpoints? I have never heard of that
>>29821250
Where can you get federal HST online? It is sold out everywhere I look
>>29821355
any 1911 pretty much. then again, using "modern" to describe a 100 year old design is somewhat ironic
>>29821299
>>29821295
you seriously think a mags worth of carry ammo is enough 'practice' to bet your life on? nevermind how is that enough to test reliability, through all your mags?
carry ammo usually has a lot more recoil because it's loaded hotter, different recoil impulse because higher pressure fast burning powder to reduce muzzle flash is used...
i wouldnt carry a gun that hasnt been proven to shoot at least 500 rounds of your given carry load with zero malfunctions, but hey everything is a gamble its your choice.
>>29821355
Usually a problem from people trying to carry 1911s or oddball milsurp like P-64s or Makarovs or CZ-52s or Tokarevs.
>>29821460
>carry ammo usually has a lot more recoil because it's loaded hotter
Sure, if you were comparing +P ammo to weak garbage like Tula or PMC...
>different recoil impulse because higher pressure fast burning powder to reduce muzzle flash is used
I've fired an alternating magazine of Speer 147 grain Gold Dot and Speer Lawman 147 grain FMJ and can't feel a difference. Neither of which recoiled noticeably more than 115 grain CCI Blazer...
Powder differences are overblown, and they make practice lines of ammunition to duplicate defensive loads.
Federal HST's practice line is Federal American Eagle FMJ
Speer Gold Dot's practice line is Speer Lawman FMJ
Winchester PDX1/Defend's practice line is Winchester Super-X/Winchester Train
If you're saying we should carry FMJ until we shoot 500 rounds of hollowpoints through our guns, kindly fuck off with that bait.
>>29821460
Damn, 1911 was the next gun on my to buy list haha. That is good to know
New question, is there such thing as an effective body armor penetrator but also hollowpoint 223/556 round similar to what I thought these civil defense rounds were, or is it just green tip m855 for armor piercing over penetration and .223 for everything else?
>>29821460
>nevermind how is that enough to test reliability, through all your mags?
Two, maybe three magazines that flawlessly feed flat point FMJ in the practice lines I noted above I'd be okay with feeding JHP.
Unless there was some massive conspiracy at Glock or Smith and Wesson to make guns that don't feed JHP correctly, which I doubt exists.
>>29821537
M855 sucks at penetrating hard armor, go for M193 if you want to punch holes.
Every .223 will penetrate soft body armor. For something that can penetrate light cover like car doors, safety glass, etc I'd go for a bonded hunting bullet like the Federal Fusion MSR/Speer Gold Dot or the Federal Trophy Bonded Tip (either Vital-Shok or Law Enforcement Tactical).
http://palmettostatearmory.com/federal-fusion-msr-223-rem-5-56x45mm-62gr-f223msr1.html
http://palmettostatearmory.com/speer-223-55gr-gold-dot-law-enforcemenrt-ammunition-20rds-24446.html
https://dsgarms.com/fedle223t3
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/federal-premium-vital-shok-rifle-ammunition-p223tt3-223-winchester-trophy-bonded-tip-rdbx-p-144336.html
>>29821537
it's not that they aren't capable of it, it just tends to be hit and miss even among the same manufacturers. usually to get reliable hollow point feeding you will have to gunsmith the feed ramp a little bit, or buy magazines like wilson combat which feed higher
>>29821529
no, i am saying you shouldnt carry ANY gun with ANY ammo until it has proven it can shoot it reliably for at least 500 rounds, preferably 1,000 for statistical peace of mind. once you determine your gun/mag/ammo combo is statistically reliable to bet your life on, then it can be pressed for duty.
>powder differences are overblown
yeah, i can already see you have never shot speer gold dots vs speer lawman at dusk or night
i'm just giving advice to what sounds like an inexperienced OP. you are most welcome to ignore it mr delta force operates with a gun he has only put 20 rounds through
>>29821605
>muzzle flash is somehow relevant when deciding what ammo to practice with
You're saying I have to buy a $300 case of Gold Dot or HST or Ranger or Hornady and dump it into a paper target and then a berm, otherwise the magical gun fairy will fuck my shit up and I'll die after my gun doublefeeds in its inaugural gun battle after the recoil overwhelms my tender wrists?
Police departments don't even maintain this level of autism over "reliability".
>>29820993
No over penetration when target has body armor? What about without one?
>>29821645
if that's what you want to carry, then yes. many police departments also only require passing a 60 round course of fire at 3 to 15 yards annually to remain "qualified". is that the pinnacle level of practice you should be holding yourself to as well?
>>29821705
Spending 3x as much on ammunition that vastly exceeds the base requirement is now as equally important as practice.
Sure thing.
>>29821645
also, ideally you would be gaining real world practice experience, like drawing and firing, rapid dumps with tactical reload, firing from different positions. you really cant substitute practice with the real thing. lots of times guns can have problems with the OAL of a cartridge, for instance. i dont know what the OAL of a ridiculously light for caliber bullet like civil defense liberty ammo is, but i suspect it would be much shorter than most others. so i would want to run a decent sample size of that snowflake ammo through it for reliability
i'm not saying you have to shoot expensive self defense ammo exclusively on every range trip, just make sure your gun is reasonably reliable with it, and get enough practice with it on a regular basis
>>29821237
Some more reasons not to use hollow points.
You want to shoot through shit and kill other shit. Aka shoot perps through other people, shoot perps through walls or glass or car doors.
Or you are a signatory to the Geneva convention.
>>29821050
Just tell them to use .25 ACP
>>29821945
Federal HST seems to retain good object penetration despite the expansion. As a previous poster said, seems to be the gold standard
>>29821460
Jesus christ. I never said not to practice. I just don't believe in wasting expensive carry ammo (which is also a pain to find) on it. As for testing reliability through all my mags, that's something you can do with regular FMJ. Nothing about the hollow point is going to suddenly turn your mags into jammomatics.
If your carry ammo is loaded substantially hotter than your practice ammo get different practice ammo. Police departments generally practice with FMJ specially selected to shoot identically to their duty loads. These FMJ loadings are available to the public. That's all I have to say to that.
>i wouldnt carry a gun that hasnt been proven to shoot at least 500 rounds of your given carry load with zero malfunctions
I'd rather have a gun that malfs on the first shot than no gun at all. Not everyone can realistically afford to burn $300 of ammo in their carry gun before they even start carrying.
>>29821455
lucky gunner has some
>>29821759
Well then this is exactly what the two of us have already been trying to say to you, only you jumped on us for suggesting you don't need to test your carry ammo much more than a few mags at a time.
Ultimately if you have an annual ammo budget of $5000 that's a little over 7000 rounds of 9mm Federal HST. For the same money you can get nearly 21000 rounds of Speer Lawman. Buy a case of quality JHPs, do reliability testing occasionally, shoot ball for skills.
