What does a military POG bring to the table that a civilian couldn't?
We have all dealt with (or heard about) the low quality personnel that make up POG ranks. If they aren't combat arms, why are they in uniform?
https://www.cbo.gov/publication/51012
>>The efficiency reviews that DoD has conducted in recent years may have already absorbed some of the potential to realize further gains, so CBO examined three options:
>One civilian replacing one service member (a 1:1 ratio),
>Four civilians replacing every five service members (a 1:1.25 ratio), and
>Two civilians replacing every three service members (a 1:1.5 ratio).
You have to pay civilians more buddy. You also can't tell a finance civilian he's an infantryman now because that's what you need him for.
Civilians won't be deploying into combat zones for cheaper than a grunt
Then you do get into a war, now you've contracted for civilians supplying empty CONUS bases
Really what should be done is turning the US army into a 100% reserves force
And there needs to be aggressive cost reduction among defense contractors, they are too fat & lazy.
>>29792638
Don't believe that story, DOD got fucked hard with contractors during the Iraq war. $80 government subsidized happy meals is not what we need to 'save' money.
>>29792652
Actually, that's wrong. From the same report.
>>The annualized costs analyzed in this report include the pay of military and civilian personnel, as well as the accrual payments that DoD sets aside to meet some categories of future obligations to current workers. Those costs also include implicit accrual charges that, by CBO’s estimate, account for the costs of deferred benefits for which the government does not make accrual payments. Such deferred benefits include health insurance for retired civil servants and for military retirees not yet eligible for Medicare. Costs also involve spending for in-kind benefits such as DoD-operated schools and for health care provided by the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA). With that definition, CBO calculates annualized costs and refers to a reduction in those costs as annualized savings.
The massive hurt that POGs (who are statistically more unhealthy than even civilians due to shit PT habits shit diets etc) puts on the medical infrastructure along with pensions and other unnecessary benefits means they end up costing more. That's government for you. Let the fuckers go.
>>29792678
Why would finance monkeys need to be deployed to combat zones?
>>29792684
That was them being retards
There are things that are fine to contract out, food supply is not one of them.
>>29792709
If there wasn't make work POG positions for negros/women, then they would have to do a position that matters
>>29792727
The service industry exists. Let them be the service industry's problem.
In a military uniform, non-combat arms brings literally nothing to the table. Three civilian members of the private industry could replace an entire office of POGs in an equivalent work role.
>>29792754
Those POG mother fuckers are the last to be cut tho because they are there brown nosing 24/7
Definately I'll agree with you that wasteful spending & inefficiencies are bringing the US military down
>>29792709
Not everyone who deploys to a combat zone is combat arms you know.
>>29792819
WHY
ARE
FINANCE
MONKEYS
THERE
?
>>29792833
Why are you making this about finance when the thread is about anybody who is not combat arms?
Truck drivers, medics, cooks and all sorts of other POG's have to occasionally fight and are exposed to just as much danger from base attacks. So why shouldn't they be in uniform?
>>29792638
>If they aren't combat arms, why are they in uniform?
Because it's cheaper to pay a Lance Corporal $1000 every two weeks to fix helicopters in Afghanistan for 6 months, than it is to pay his civilian counter part $200,000 to fix helicopter ins Afghanistan for 3 months.
>>29792691
You're only referring to veterans that serve 20 years and then retire and get full benefits. If a 19yr old Soldier/Marine/Sailor spends 4 years in the military working on HVAC (heating and cooling) for an average of $20,000 a year then gets out and doesn't receive retirement benefits, you've saved your self $80,000 by not hiring a civilian HVAC worker whose average salary is $40,000 per year.
Yeah, this does not work. I was in Japan during the earthquake, tsunami, and nuclear meltdown disaster.
In addition to sending dependents to the usa to have government paid for vacations. They also sent most of the american civilian workers.
So if war came to Japan or a NATO member. All the civilians get evacuated. Now the military is missing a lot of manpower and skillsets to do essential support work.
Civilians that do get sent to combat zones, cost a lot more than a soldier. Plus they still get evacuated if the FOB or LSA is not completely safe.
Want to save money? Stop having the military all over the world and stop getting in wars. Then we can be like the Swiss. Just sitting in our country and asking for someone to try something.
>>29793170
>and stop getting in wars
But then how will your entrepreneur overlords get even richer from your wars and suffering?
Because the amazing thing about enlisted personal is you can make them work literally any hours you want without paying them overtime and you can generally treat them like shit and there's nothing they can do about it, unlike civilian contractors who make 200k a year and can quit at the drop of a hat.
>>29795524
or Federal civilians who have strict work hours and take a real effort to get fired.
>>29792638
>What does a military POG bring to the table that a civilian couldn't?
Some very sharp skates.
>>29793030
The problem is that the lance corporal isn't just $20k a year. He is $20k plus training, housing, mess hall (or d-fac or whatever the Muhreens call it), plus Tricare, and the fact that he likely sucks ass as a HVAC technician. He also is going to be actually working on HVAC maybe half the time, if it is anything like mechanics.
>>29795822
Sure the contractor is cheaper for maintaining bases in CONUS... maybe
But the military is for wars, eventually they deploy and then you'll need all those skill sets in military personnel
Is this another leg that thinks hes hot shit and is butthurt the fobbits have a more lax enlistment?
>>29795844
Which is why you streamline and modularize equipment and processes. Lance Corporal Jarhead doesn't need to know HVAC. He needs to know how to remove "compressor inlet module B" and replace it with another unit already on it's way from a warehouse in Kuwait.
His time (and time is money) overseas would be better served accomplishing mission objectives and not having to go to undo lengths supporting them.
Get rid of MIMMs clerks, supply, cooks, admin, mechanics, etc
They serve no purpose but to dilute the Marine Corps and probably the other branches
I'm a navy corpsman, work at a hospital on shift right now. The .mil likes do do that already there are 4 civilians and 3 enlisted on my shift.
>>29795999
>cooks
I hear they're pretty important when deployed.
Honestly I think for the navy all these auxiliary roles are more important than others because on a ship sailors have lots of other collateral duties.
>>29795822
but you don't just pay the contractor's wage. you also pay the company for renting the contractor. so for a contractor earning 40k, you're paying his employer 60k for hiring him. that's how contracting works. the company you are contracting is turning a profit on each and every guy they have working for you.
what's more the only way the can increase total revenue is by increasing cost to the government. someone underbids them? they have to cut services somewhere to make money. how do they do that? they play fast and lose and then force to to take legal action to change what they're doing.
the contract labor model is a fucking nightmare and the military should avoid it like the played. especially because that contractor isn't going to pick up a weapon if shit hits the fan.
>>29796248
Bidded contracts are the standard means by which all equipment enters military service, the means by which all facilities not constructed by military "engineers" that enter service with military are constructed, and is the basis of nearly all goods and services civilian side.
It's even really simple: you solicit bids for a defined good and/or service, get bids, and pick the lowest one. If you aren't a fucktard (pro-tip: the government is), you have the means to ensure that your good and/or service is as described in the bid you accepted, usually by hiring a third party inspector (something the military used to do pre-Civil War).
While I had to sign a NDA on discharge, my position with the DoD costs something to the tune of $130k a year, of which I saw very little. Where did the rest go? Literally out my ass, down the drain, and down range.
Bidded contracts are generally cheaper than using government assets due to equipment, processes, and personnel suited for the task. Literally, they are professionals doing a task professionally. Obviously, there are exceptions, such as the VA hospital debacle (stop extending bids, start suing), but it generally results in task completed to spec.
Fed civilians and contractors won't do work outside their contract.
I was in iraq in 2005. There was this 4 man shop that maintained the computers, wireless network, and satellite data link for the motor pool supply system. The shop was two Ssg, one sfc, and one contractor. The NCOs did the paper work, set up, wireless, and satellite stuff. The contractor worked on the software and laptops. The contractor worked one night a week. He came in fixed all the issues and then you didn't see him for another week. He just hung around the FOB pulling down 120000 for the year. The work wasn't even something the NCOs couldn't do. The NCOs did other things when they weren't needed in the shop.
>>29792638
civilians won't do bitch work for $20k a year so it will actually cost more even before you add muh benefits on top
/thread
>>29796412
And pre-2011, what was one pair of feet in boots worth? In 2002, it was $44887 just to get a Marine out of basic, let alone AIT or whatever the Muhreens call it.
It would have been even higher in 2005, including recruitment and retention costs and the IT/ET training to touch a damned laptop. To make it worse, what happens one day a week turns into two weeks in a Humvee and laptops are piled ten deep?
Also, they should have just replaced the laptops with units prepped stateside.
ITT: Butthurt grunts who don't fully understand how a modern military functions and the various roles even the POGest of POGs may and has had to fill, to include your oh so sacred combat.
or
Shits that have never even served and don't know what they're talking about anyway.
All around a good thread we got here.
>>29796494
Thank you for your service
>>29796494
Well then fucking enlighten us, for we are lowly grunts, awaiting your vast E3-E4 wisdom.
Might as well just go full PMC, why pay a bunch of ineffective man-children to go to war, when you can have professionals. kekekekkek
>>29796509
Someone has to wipe your baby asses, because you sure as hell don't know how to do it Lance Corporal.
>>29796522
I just had O4's to ask me why I had shit on ass.
>>29796569
And to ask why words were missing from my paperwork.
The cool thing about this thread is every argument for replacing POGs is just as applicable to grunts aka why even bother having a military if a PMC is cheaper?
>>29796592
Because the idea is to replace hacks with professionals. In theory, the grunts are the professionals.
In other word, yeah, please privatize the Air National Guard.
>>29795921
if a suction valve has failed then the compressor is shot and they system contaminated. this is why business school is joke and only for football recruiting.
>>29792638
>tfw trained these fucking POG niggers as a civvie
>come out with the realization that the armed forces are little more than an adult daycare for reprobates
>>29792638
>What does a military POG bring to the table that a civilian couldn't?
Inability to say no to the BS that is 90% of the military.
>>29796622
>In theory, the grunts are the professionals.
When was the last time a professional thought it was a good idea to celebrate a promotion by breaking someone's ribs with a hammer?
