Daily reminder: M1A2 shitbrams cannot compete against superior leopard 2a7/a8. Challenger 2 also destroys American monkey tank
>>29775883
here's your (you)
>>29775883
>this german tank is god even though its never seen actual combat!
try harder.
>>29775883
>Americans
There is your answer OP. Americans are retarded and non-white.
>>29775959
Says the eurocuck currently being invaded by the brown horde.
>>29775959
>Decline of the Average American
More like the replacement of White Americans with Spics and Niggers. America is pretty much fucked.
>>29775883
>This just in, ancient tank is shit.
GOLLY GEE WILLICKERS
>>29775973
More like Europeans are following Americucks into decline.
We will wake up first though, our trends are not irreversible. Our right-wing, anti-immigration politicians are still electable. Just look at the new Austrian President. Based as fuck.
>>29775883
+3 euro has been added to your account.
nice one, hanz
>>29775987
I'm not Hans I'm John from canada
>>29775883
Have we come through the other end of the wormhole, to a universe where night /k/lub is shitter than day/k/are?
>>29775883
You have to be more subtle with your bait m8, even gone off a bottle of rum i was able to spot it
>>29775973
See: >>29775974
What do you call that if not being REPLACED by the brown horde?
>>29775985
How many terror attacks have you faggots had this year?
>>29775985
>>29775985
>tfw live in NM
best just kill myself now
>>29775985
>We will wake up first though, our trends are not irreversible
You are a funny guy, you will die last.
>>29776007
Our terror attacks pale to the number of people who get killed by Ameriniggers every year.
Even the refugees are actually better in crime per capita than Americucks. The panic is because we are worried we might start competing with America as the crime-ridden shithole of the Developed World.
Pic related is what the Average Ameribrowns will look like by 2030.
>>29775883
Daily reminder that the Leopard 2 has a huge flaw in its frontal armor.
To actually make a fair point to anyone reading this thread, the Leopard is legitimately trash for a serious reason.
It has NO soft or hard kill protection systems.
The M1A2 SEP and 2A6/A7 are both pretty much the same in armor, speed, and firepower with the exception of the Leo's gun being slightly better and the Abrams having a autistically powerful engine that has higher horsepower at the cost of a ridiculous amount of fuel.
The reason the Leo is trash compared to the Abrams (And almost any other modern MBT) is that it can't protect from ATGMs or infantry-fired anti tank weapons.
Almost every other MBT has some form of device that disables or fucks with missle lasers or electronics so they can't be used against the tank, or even a hard-kill system that literally destroys incoming RPGs (Trophy, Windbreaker, whatever the Russians call theirs). Think about the huge boxes on the from of T-90s.
Those are what the Leo needs, but does not have.
Another tank with this issue is the Challenger 2, and I think we'll see the effects of it in our lifetime.
TL;DR Leo 2 is trash and vulnerable
>>29776013
Wait a few years and Jose will probably do it for you.
>>29776031
>Even the refugees are actually better in crime per capita than Americucks
And then you realize refugees are off limits for your police.
>>29776038
>Another tank with this issue is the Challenger 2, and I think we'll see the effects of it in our lifetime.
Lot of talk is that BAE is not interested in developing another Challenger and the UK military doesn't really see a need for it. BAE won't pump billions into a project that will only see a production run of maybe a few hundred. Same thing happened with their aerospace industry. Much easier to just buy the American standard like the F-35, which will be the M1A3 Abram when it comes out.
Eurotank can't come out soon enough. The best of French and German engineering to replace the Leopard and LeClerc without UK and Italy to fuck it up like Eurofighter.
>>29776053
thousands of whites are murdered by blacks every single year
rapes/robberies/vicious assaults are a daily occurance against whites in every single major city
These sorts of things are not reported on at all by the mainstream media, and even republicucks won't say a word since marxism is the dominant ideology in america.
>>29776073
Funny thing, Italy actually makes pretty good MBTs, cutting them out of a design process that you include the french in is foolish.
The British can make a hell of a tank, but they have their own way of going about it and I cant see them ever cooperating with an international project.
>>29776073
The Leclerc is actually really good though
>slightly better gun than Abrams, only a few feet shorter than the Leo2A6s, so it is a little better but is easier to be used in urban settings
>modular armor that can be replaced in the field
>properly layered ceramics and armor plates that are (supposedly) as effective as chobham with less weight
>Good engine
>comfortable interior
>NATO 120mm ammunition with a good selection of HEAT, HE, and APFSDS
>good optics and technology
>soft-kill protection systems
>not terribly overweight like Abrams
>a fair amount of them have actually been produced, i think almost 1000 now
>only issues are it's pretty expensive, but not as bad as the Abrams, and it has an auto loader
Which actually, as far as auto loaders go, is actually a pretty good one.
I like the Leclerc a lot, along with the Type 10 and K2 BP.
>>29776103
Italians are non-cooperative and very frustrating to work with in general. Their budget is also much smaller.
Italian MBT Ariete is also complete shit-tier. Only 200 were ever made (Arjun has more orders), the only user was Italy with no exports, and it was 8 years late. The engine is mediocre, the gun sucks, the armor sucks, the armor sucks. The tank is nothing more than an ugly, corrupt kickback machine.
>>29776144
b.. but that blacktail defense guy on youtube who slams everything the americans ever build thinks its better than the m1a2. Surely he cant be wrong or biased...
>>29776141
>>only issues are it's pretty expensive
That is a major understatement. It pretty much killed its export potential and low orders is why France is keen to work with Germany on the next generation tank rather than burn more money on expensive stuff that costs billions and has low production runs.
>>29776103
>Italy actually makes pretty good MBTs
>Ariete
>good
Hmm, it has no export sales. Gonna wanna source on that one.
>It has NO soft or hard kill protection systems.
It has MUSS (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUSS_(Abstandsaktives_Schutzsystem)) and AMAP-ADS.
>>29776144
The gun doesn't SUCK, it's just nothing special.
The armor doesn't SUCK, it's just nothing special.
It's like a slightly less expensive, less sloped, less powerful enginey, less armored Abrams.
Which for a country like Italy, isn't that bad, especially as a domestically produced MBT.
And at least it takes NATO ammo, unlike the Challenger 2
>>29776183
This. Its not amazing but its not shit. Its just the most middle of the road, textbook example of a western style MBT.
>>29776182
MUSS was only tested in Leo 2s, never actually fielded.
Which is a good analogy for the Leo 2.
>>29776176
The only top notch military equipment Italians make are some light armored utility vehicles, the Berettas, and some naval guns. They run a skeleton army and nearly everything they use is outdated or mediocre.
>>29776183
ShItalian detected.
Ariete is hot garbage. The price of a modern MBT with nothing notable and completely mediocre in absolutely every way.
After being delayed for EIGHT years they induct some piece of junk and immediately display an upgraded variant at a Defence Expo the year of its induction designed to fix all the shit they got wrong the first time. No takers. Program cancelled. Last tank Italy will ever make and for good reason.
The only rationale for its existence is because Italians are corrupt as fuck, and there was probably some huge kickbacks involved, like everything that involves Italians.
>>29776274
>hot garbage
>completely mediocre
Pick one
No one is denying that is is completely mediocre, but it doesn't really have anything that is actually WRONG or TERRIBLE about it. No, it's not the best at anything, but it's not actually the worst at anything either, other than the price, which when in full production would drop.
>>29775974
>>29775985
Can we please create a /nig/ board for all Americuck posters from now on and make it their containment board?
>>29776327
If you make a tank eight years late and only order 200 of them that is pretty much a failure. There were almost certainly a LOT of things wrong with it. Not even the sub-components like the engines were exported let alone the tank itself, because they were probably shit.
Ariete should have been cancelled when it started going through the delays.
>>29775985
Fuck this.
Im moving to Canada.
>>29776445
Our niggers were here already, and we didnt have the good sense to wipe most of them out like you did.
>>29776000
No, we're just gettin' raided by /pol/.
Seriously, they're really needy.
>>29776477
Ahh, so business as usual.
>B-b-but muh cucks, niggers, and joooos.
>>29775985
>we will wake up first though
No
Us Eurocucks will never wake up. Leftisism is too rampant to fix anything
>>29776477
nah, im here from /b/
no shit
>>29776095
>he thinks the US is more leftist than Yurop
kek
Take your shitty ass bait back to >>>/pol/
>>29776613
If terms of what the cucks tolerate against their own kind? They are hard left vs europe
>>29776613
Europe is leftist as in Welfare state
Amerishitanistan is leftist as in Niggers and Spics getting 'gibs for votes'.
>>29776624
lol no, just replace spics with ayyrabs and you got the same problem in Yurop
Have you even been outside your bunker?
>>29776624
There's barely nobody who's as conservative as conservative Americans in Europe
Doesn't matter if there's leftists. What matters is how leftist the right wings are
>>29776661
Arab refugees barely make even 1% of the population in Europe.
America is literally 15% Niggers and 30% Spics. 50% of all American children are non-white.
Show me a country in Europe that has 50% non-white children.
>>29776675
switzerland and france are around 50% non-white kids
>>29775957
So you are saying that all nuclear weapons are shit since no combat experience?
A thing can be perfect without combat experience. That beeing said Leo 2A6Ms has seen combat.
>>29776688
Nope.
France doesn't measure ethnic makeup, but estimated number is 10-15%.
Switzerland is White as fuck. They are not part of EU and don't have open borders. No refugees allowed.
Try again Amerinigger.
>>29775985
>>29776035
what flaw? modern composite armor has hollow spaces to "catch" explosions/penetrators.
>>29776141
Dont forget the lady voice of the computers announcing things :3
>>29775883
When are they putting aps on those? Fuck my life even the ruskis got aps on their tanks.
Also have this picture of a leopard 2
>>29776885
holy shit you're serious...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>29776934
>>29776038
I think that's basically the short story of it. Until the Leopard 2 goes through major retrofitting to have ANY form of APS actually installed, it is a below-average meme tank.
Maybe it has a good gun, armor, engine, and an acceptable price range, but without APS it is literally on the same tier as Cold War tanks, albeit with the former advantages.
Almost every other modern MBT has some form of APS, with several even fielding hard-kill systems that can destroy RPGs and missles mid flight.
>American M1A2 SEP (soft kill with hard kill in development)
>Russian Shtora (effective soft kill that disables laser guided anything)
>Israeli Windbreaker (fielded and operational hard kill system standard on Merk IVs)
>French Leclerc (soft kill APS)
>Korean BP (soft kill APS, hard kill system with PIP release)
Fuck man, even the Chinese Type 99 has a laser dazzler APS and laser warning system
If you want to compare the Leopard to something, compare it to the Type-10 TK-X, which is meant to be lightweight and compact, and has fully modular armor with almost the exact same levels of protection at almost half the weight (but expensive) or the Ariete, which at least knows it's place instead of being touted as the "omg best tonk ever"
>>29776692
I refuse to believe that you are actually this stupid.
>>29776934
The Leopard 2 has APS for years now.
>>29776675
France is 15% ayyrab
Britain around the same
Sweden is doomed
Germany is Turkey 2.0
Even my country Norway got high levels of immigrants
The US doesn't have fucking 50% nonwhites
>>29776825
>europoors projecting this hard about immigrants
>>29776035
>being this stupid
>>29777529
No it doesn't.
>>29777666
It has working and operational hard kill systems for 10 years now.
Every nation that operates Leopard 2 can get them.
That they didn't or even the USA doesn't use own already working systems say more about the limitation of such systems.
Extra minus points if your tanks are supposed to work closely with infantry.
>>29776038
>It has NO soft or hard kill protection systems.
What do you think those cans are on the side of the turret?
>the Abrams having a autistically powerful engine that has higher horsepower at the cost of a ridiculous amount of fuel
Both have 1500 hp.
>>29777692
A7 also has Saab Barracuda MCS with HTR
>>29777692
the turbo diesel is louder but yeah i would rather it than turbine
>>29777264
>laser warning system
that amazes me the most
When i was in the german army our instructor said that the german dod didnt want a laser warning system at that time because they didnt want the crew if they were about to die.
I dont know if the instructor was fucking with us but I can imagine that the german dod is that dumb.
>>29777683
>for 10 years now.
you are talking shit mate and you know it.
>>29777692
so you consider smoke canisters as hardkill system?
oki doki
>>29776095
35k homicides per year, 80% due to domestic violence and 1/2 of victims being black. of all homicides. hi mm.....how is this blacks targeting whites sorry, they don't like /pol/ here please go be with your own kind.
>>29777692
>>29777683
Are you autistic
Smoke canisters are not hard or soft kill
>Electronic countermeasures that alter the electromagnetic, acoustic or other signature(s) of a target thereby altering the tracking and sensing behavior of an incoming threat (e.g., guided missile) are designated soft-kill measures.
>Measures that physically counterattack an incoming threat thereby destroying/altering its payload/warhead in such a way that the intended effect on the target is severely impeded are designated hard-kill measures.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_protection_system
The Leopard 2 has no functioning APS (armor protective systems), leaving it completely vulnerable to ATGMs, RPGs, and a variety of other toys commonly encounter on any modern battlefield.
Get educated and shut the fuck up, kiddo
>>29777917
>The Leopard 2 has no functioning APS
This is a wrong statement. Repeating it doesn't help your lack of point.
The problem with any hard kill system is that the KE projectiles still hit the target with the same kinetic energy.
>>29777917
>What is AMAP-ADS?
>What is AVePS?
>>29777798
>so you consider smoke canisters as hardkill system?
Come back when you've learned to read
>>29777982
The true reason why we didn't see a lot of hard kill systems is that the extra weight of basically the same as possible extra passive armor.
While passive armor has several extra adventages.
>>29777264
AMAP-ADS is available for purchase for the Leo2 and includes hard-kill. No one has bought it yet, but that's beside the point.
>>29777723
Yup, the low noise is the only advantage of the turbine.
>>29777917
>Smoke canisters are not hard or soft kill
Yes, they are a soft kill measure.
>>29776095
35k homicides per year, 80% due to domestic violence and 1/2 of victims being black. of all homicides. hi mm.....how is this blacks targeting whites sorry, they don't like /pol/ here please go be with your own kind.
>>29778004
A turbine engine doesn't smoke.
>but muh thermal signature
The thermal emissivity of the hot air is lower than diesel exhaust.
>>29778112
>A turbine engine doesn't smoke.
That's depends on the fuel used.
>The thermal emissivity of the hot air is lower than diesel exhaust.
Hot air is what's in your head.
>>29777995
So you don't deny they're smoke canisters?
>>29778175
Have you learned to read yet?
>>29777934
>>29777982
>>29778003
But you guys don't seem to understand,
NO COUNTRY FIELDS A LEOPARD 2 WITH APS. There have been a minimal number of trials with a system which will end up only being used on the Puma, but there is still no standard soft or hard kill protective systems standard on any Leopard 2.
Currently, the Leopard 2 MBT is not fielded with any form of soft or hard kill APS. This is a liability and most other first and second world countries DO have comparable MBTs with APS.
How can you say the Leopard 2 is objectively the best tank when it has a gaping issue, and then you try to defend it with
>w-well there's a system that has never been used in any engagement that is fielded by zero countries and hasn't been installed on any serving tanks that hypothetically could improve the tanks, therefore you're wrong!
When every other country has a better MBT with APS.
>>29778018
Yes, because a smokescreens "alter the electromagnetic, acoustic or other signature(s) of a target thereby altering the tracking and sensing behavior of an incoming threat (e.g., guided missile)"
I didn't know WWII Tigers were equipped with Soft-Kill Active Protection Systems
>>29777708
Barracuda MCS is not a fixed feature, hell the US Army has bought some for Abrams for when they are needed.
>>29778226
>Active Protection Systems commonly consist of an array of soft- and hard-kill techniques. Soft-kill methods, similar to Electronic Counter-Measures (ECM) in aircraft, seduce and confuse an incoming missile, by using decoys, SMOKE and electro-optical signals, infrared or laser jamming.
http://defense-update.com/features/du-1-04/soft-kill-intro.htm
Do you like being spoonfed?
>>29777664
>avoiding the obvious gap in the armor cavity where the main gun sight is
>>29775985
>muh future factless chart
Europoor you need to go back
>>>/pol/
>>29778269
A gap is what's between your ears.
>>29778160
Did it trigger you to learn a diesel has a bigger thermal signature than a turbine?
>>29778290
Why do you lie on the internet?
>>29778279
Your REEEEE is tangible.
>>29778293
Do you not know what emissivity is?
>>29778301
>making up stories to feel better
pathetic
>>29778309
Do you?
>>29778256
Fine, I'll concede that smokescreens can be a form of soft kill protection.
But still, that's pretty pathetic. If the leopard 2 is the best tank, where are the laser jammers? missle warning systems? Dazzlers? Shtora? Windbreaker? Trophy? It's missing a critical protective element, and if the best defense they've got is a smoke screen that can only be used once or twice, that's pretty pathetic, especially when it's competing against tanks that can literally shoot enemy projectiles out of the air.
>>29778328
>Emissivity is the measure of an object's ability to emit infrared energy. Emitted energy indicates the temperature of the object.
Do you need your hand held further or are you able to figure the rest out on your own?
>>29778180
You going to answer?
>>29778342
Don't push me into arguing for a standpoint I never held. I made my point. And you finally conceded it. What others said or claimed you fight out with them, not with me.
>>29778254
It's a fixed standard for the A7.
>>29776035
What's that?
>>29778352
Everything you need to know has already been written down in short and simple sentences. I see no reason to repeat it when you show such abysmal reading comprehension. Just follow the backlinks, read everything again and - provided you have an attentive mind - everything that clouds your understanding will clear up.
>>29778206
>advanced ADS systems are avaiable
>no nation deploys them
>hard kill systems are general rare on NATO tanks
Yeah, maybe. There are drawbacks like weight panalty which render hard kill ADS solutions useless.
Passive armour is general the better solution espencially because your tank doesn't become a threat for the own troops.
>>29778344
Please. Go on.
![K9J6GDx[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/ZgFtUwX.png "K9J6GDx[1].png")
What do you even need tanks for? Just hide innawoods and use a shit ton of artillery.
>>29778474
you mean innawoods and just bathe in artillery fire
>>29778437
I'll take that as a no then.
>>29775883
i could fap to this tank
>>29778596
You already proved that you can't read. No need to do it again.
>>29776073
> The best of French and German engineering to replace the Leopard and LeClerc without UK and Italy to fuck it up like Eurofighter.
Except it was France and Germany who fucked the Typhoon's procurement. The former demanded they do basically everything then abandoned it when they were quite rightly told to get fucked and the latter delayed it by years because they kept going on about M-MUH NO WAR and constantly trying to downgrade the design to a light fighter.
Spain was also a source of constant bullshit, constantly falling behind on paying out money. The UK and Italy are the only two members of the consortium who've ever really done big things for it, providing the vast majority of the research for it and are the two in the lead for pushing ahead on upgrades.
>>29775883
>leopard 2a7/a8
>a8
>>29778160
>Depends on fuel.
We use JP-8 for that reason.
Fine we still build better tankbusters.
>>29779649
>because they kept going on about M-MUH NO WAR
Not denying the fuckery by Germany. But the actual reason was the huge cost of reunification. The Typhoon was originally a pure air superiority fighter with higher T/W ratio and a shorter engine life. After the end of the Cold War and when the cost of propping up East Germany became apparent, the Germans tried and succeeded in making it a multi-role fighter with less T/W and longer engine life.
Germany actually even wanted out. But the treaties wouldn't allow it. Ironically it was Germany who during the Cold War insisted on making the treaties as watertight as they could make them after having been disappointed by the other Europeans in multinational arms projects several times when it was the other who abandoned the projects.
>>29776038
Nice Serbian M-84 you got there.
>>29776928
What?
Talking about multi-national arms projects.
There was recently a meeting of UK, Germany and Italy for the successor of the Tornado.
Germany also announced the first requirements for the NextGenWS aircraft.
>>29779915
For some reason the ~100 Leopard 2A4's that Germany is going to reactivate and upgrade are being referred to as 2A8's on the interwebs.
>post cold war eurotank
kek, it's fucking nothing.
>design bitchin' new upgrade to cold war era tank
>apply to about 200-400 tanks
>never use them
>neglect them until the next upgrade is ready
fucking Greece and turkey each have more Leo 2's than Germany. Yes, I am aware they're old shit surplus, but the German army is a fucking joke, even before you mention the broomsticks.
>>29778426
A Leopard 2A6 turret, the white cavity is the space the main gun sight occupies.
>>29780747
How do you think the gunners sight are integrated in all the other tanks?
>>29775985
DELETE THIS
>>29780850
What other tanks have the main gunsight occupy space in the frontal armor cavity.
>>29780943
M1, Challenger 2.
All of them.
>>29780958
Neither the M1 or Challenger have the main gunsight occupy armor cavity space.
>>29780850
Putting such elements frontal as possible has also the adventage that the reduced LOS only affects had a small range.
The Abrams solution (see picture) affects pretty much all hits to that side.
>>29780977
*affects only a small range of hits
>>29780969
It does.
Or do you really think that the sights are welded on the top of the turret and the gunner can use it through magic?
>>29775883
>2a7/a8
naming systems are autistic
>>29781021
The gunsight on an Abrams is behind the armor cavity, the gunsight on a Challenger is over the mantle.
>>29781064
A long way to say yes.
>>29781064
mantlet*
>>29781071
How long will you continue to make random comments instead of addressing what was said?
>>29781064
>the gunsight on a Challenger is over the mantle.
Only the thermal sight.
>>29780943
Dude, the EMES-15 sight has a long optical tube to connect it with the main mirrors and the thermal imaging device, which rest in the compartment that you criticize. This tube allows it to put part of the armor further back and above the tube and part of it in front of the tube. Note how in pic related the armor on the right side of the turret reaches further into the interior compared to the left side. The armor is the same on both sides. But it's arranged differently. And this arrangement is an advantage over the Abrams. In the Abrams the main gun sight doesn't have this tube. The whole device is a compact block which reaches straight up from the gunner's monocular through the roof. This creates a ballistic gap and makes the Abrams vulnerable to attack from the top. The armor arrangement of the Leopard 2 prevents this.
>>29781197
Reminds me that I never heard about that "weakpoint" in literature but only in silly internet discussions.
>>29777692
Smoke launchers. NO, they don't count.
>>29777784
German here. It probably is, though the real reason and what they said might be different.
>>29777934
What is that APS I haven't heard of that is currently equipping all of the 200 combat ready German Leos? Because if we count all the bells and jingles the respective MOD isn't screwing on their tanks, we get outside the realms of reality.
>>29778441
ADS? Useless? The Israelis used it to shoot ATGMs out of the air that would have cracked their tanks easily. And "Threat for troops" is a matter of vicinity and vs cost of troops for what happens when the ATGM does hit.
AND ALL OF YOU FORGET ONE THING:
Leos (at least German ones) fire tungsten APFSD. Good luck killing anything better than T-72s with those, because you are gonna need it.
>>29781197
>This creates a ballistic gap and makes the Abrams vulnerable to attack from the top.
But that's wrong and this entire argument is completely retarded.
>>29781242
argument is basically from some Russian website which 4chan thinks its spam.
Author got it wrong.
>>29781280
>I'm really that butthurt!
>>29778206
Lol when did
>Leo2 HAS no APS system
become
>NO COUNTRY FIELDS A LEOPARD 2 WITH APS.
Having fun moving your goalpost?
Fact ist: there are actually several commercial upgrades available, AMAP-ADS being a prime example. It *is* for sale for the Leo2.
It's just that no-one sees the necessity to install it.
Your complain is autismo-tier.
>>29781280
>Smoke launchers. NO, they don't count.
Sure, who doesn't want protection against TV-, EO-, IR-, IIR-, LASER- und SACLOS guided weapons!
AMAP-ADS is also avaiable to all Leopard 2 customers.
>>29781197
Your image is not an accurate representation.
>>29781242
>>29781285
>no arguments
Pic related is the gunner's sight of the Abrams. As you can see the main mirrors are right above the gunner's monocular. Which means there's no armor there as this device goes through the roof to the outside. A hit from the top on to the sights will therefore go straight into the crew compartment without being held up by armor.
If you hit the Leopard's sight from the top you hit armor and don't reach the crew compartment. If you hit it from the front you hit armor, except for that little opening for the optical tube. But since it's less than 3 inches in diameter and would have to be hit straight on this would be a one in a million shot.
The area of the breakthrough of the Abrams sight is a lot bigger.
>>29781420
Several might be an overstatement, AMAP-ADS is available though. Just wanted to correct that.
>>29781425
For that protection to be effective, you need to know that such a weapon has been launched at you. As such sensors are missing, it doesn't offer an advantage significant enough to compare to stuff like the Sthrta. And since every modern tank fields them, they are irrelevant for the purpose of comparison.
And I feel that for comparing the different tanks, it is prudent to only include the stuff that is actually fielded - since all the APS in the world won't protect any tanks stashed away in some manufacturers storage hall.
>>29781445
Yes, it is. Of course the geometry is improved in the A5 onwards. One can't see shit on your pic except the opening for the gun and just on the edge of the pic the compartment. One can't see there how far the armor reaches into the interior.
Pic related is the EMES-15. See the tube? Realize the difference to the Abrams?
Hard kill systems are only interesting if a nation wants to deploy their tanks mostly in asymmetrical warfare like Israel.
In all other situations is passive armour the more simple and effective way of improving protection.
>>29775996
>Not Mike from Canmore
>>29779449
You retard you are writing with multiple anons
How can anyone call the Leopard 2 the best tank if it needs such a big key to start?
>>29781635
multiple anons who can't read
>>29781448
>A hit from the top on to the sights will therefore go straight into the crew compartment without being held up by armor.
What's going to be hitting the top of it?
The most common item that's going to be hitting the top of any vehicle armor is a DPICM style round, which on average between Russian and US designs is, at the high end, between 80 and 100mm which generally is only barely enough to get through the roof of a second gen MBT design and their use against heavy armor essentially relies in scoring a mission kill or hitting the engine deck. Discounting the likelihood of a hit on the top of the gunners sight, the top of the sight does have armor as does the bottom of the electrical box before the headrest. Again, this entire argument about MUH HOLE IN ARMOR is full fucking retard and I can't believe people even fell for the bait.
>>29781773
It's kind of strange how you give an example how easily artillery rounds (more like splitters and sub-munitions) can penetrate through the sights.
>>29780384
>There was recently a meeting of UK, Germany and Italy for the successor of the Tornado.
Except the F-35 is going to replace the Tornado.
>>29781883
>literally incapable of reading
nice
>>29781773
>the top of the sight does have armor
Yeah, enough to stop small arms, but nothing bigger. Already a heavy MG would suffice. And in hilly terrain or urban environment there's plenty opportunity to hit the top. Look at the pic. On top of the mirrors is that thin armor to prevent small arms damage. But below is nothing. Just the big compact block with the thermal imaging device, the prisms and filters and the controls. And this armor gap is as big as a man's chest. The hole for the tube in the Leopard is as big as a man's fist.
You can't get around such a weakness unless you want the optical canal to do a complete 180.
>>29781425
If smoke dischargers count, then World War fucking Two tanks had APS.
>>29781983
>in hilly terrain or urban environment there's plenty opportunity to hit the top
After many years of intense COIN in urban environments can you provide even one example of the gunners sight being penetrated from the top and entering the crew compartment?
Surely if there's "plenty of opportunity to hit the top" it would have happened at least once.
>>29781961
premium grade bate
>>29781983
I'm not the biggest fan of the Abrams, (no criticism, I just prefer the Chally 2 and Leo2) but goddamn they look shit hot in Ausfag Camo.
>>29781534
>One can't see there how far the armor reaches into the interior.
Sure we can.
>>29778422
Show a picture of a 2A7 with it.
>>29781983
>Yeah, enough to stop small arms, but nothing bigger. Already a heavy MG would suffice.
>And this armor gap is as big as a man's chest.
wew lad, at least the anon pointing out the weakspot in a leo2's armor had proofs
>>29781961
>WHY HIDE?
Gets me every time.
>>29778416
fuck you sperg
Old leopards are being converted into howitzers.
>>29784891
You do realize that is just a Leopard with its gun removed, not some sort of stubby howitzer.
>>29785041
>>29785065
>Oh fuck I made a fool of myself, how can I damage control?
>I know! A reaction image!
>>29785041
Congratulations, you have correctly identified the joke.
>>29784891
>This week on pimp my ride.
Also, when are we going to see the return of tank destroyers?
Say one or two sprinkled amongst normal armoured companies, with fixed turrets, superheavy guns, anti tank missile capabilities, etc.
>>29785216
Can you call it a joke when there are people who actually think it exists?
>>29776825
well, food stamps, WIC, and medicaid will do that, especially when pumping out another bastard child every year equated to a pay raise
>>29775996
John..chang.
Id rather have halfricans, mexicans and asians than a human wave of mudslimes.
You poor eurocucks will be living under sharia law before this century is over.
>>29785405
Trends show hispanics dropping to white birthrates within 20 years.
>>29776445
>Canada
Why? Want to be a liberal invaded by Chinese instead? Fuck off you cunt.
>>29776038
>Leo's gun being slightly better and the Abrams
8% increase in velocity but -11% in penetration for being Tungsten, and smaller in size. Better is not the word I would call it.
>>29785226
No point, MBTs have the guns, IFVs have ATGMs. Fixed guns cant be stabilized, and are useless for urban fighting.
New kid on the block are those infantry support vehicles with duel autocannons and ATGMs like the BMPT and BTR-T
>>29786859
>New kid on the block are those infantry support vehicles with duel autocannons and ATGMs like the BMPT and BTR-T
The new kid on the block is IFV's with heavy armor.
>>29786896
True enough i guess, the Infantry support vehicles have been turning into IFVs with platforms like the T15
>>29785574
america is already a minority white country and has had a black president for 8 years
>>29786602
This is the weirdest thing, as someone that has a Leo2 series Fetish, their choice to avoid DU rounds and go for a gun that offers less operational flexibility to miss achieving parity that large a margin boggles my mind.
>>29786945
I suggest you use a more credible source for US demographics.
>>29787022
Tungsten is better than DU at very high velocities. Once you get past a certain speed, the greater strength of a Tungsten round counts for more than the self-sharpening and density of DU.
Two solutions to the same problem. To increase penetration, the Germans made their gun longer so the Tungsten projectiles they already have/have experience with come out faster for greater penetration.
The US chose to make a fuckheavy DU round. The US round all go at roughly the same "sweet spot" speed for DU, but M829A3 is just 20-30% heavier, so it also loses less speed over distance.
The Germans made a new gun, the US made new ammo.
>>29786602
>dat random -11%
>>29783233
Can you for the Leopard's alleged weakness?
>>29784173
>proving my point
thanks
>>29784500
He had a picture. I had more pictures.
>>29784836
butthurt?
>>29786602
>8% increase in velocity but -11% in penetration for being Tungsten,
DU is only demonstrably better by ~10% against wholly steel targets.
>>29789137
DU retains far more of its energy at lower velocities (in other words, greater ranges) than WHA does.
>>29784891
So, do you like to spread false information ?
Arjun>M1A2SEP>Chally 2>Leopard 2A7>LELKEK>T-14>MERKAVA
Can we all agree on this ?
>>29789317
puh....close enough...nearly posted to this bait
>>29789160
>DU retains far more of its energy at lower velocities (in other words, greater ranges) than WHA does.
DU and WHA are close enough in density so the cross-sectional area and therefore drag induced aren't that much far off so no.
The USA would need to go with 140mm tank guns if they want to use DU in future.
If we are moving to ETC or even light gas guns then there is only tungsten left.
>>29786859
Yeah but what about tanks that have APS? Surely ATGMs wouldn't last forever right?
>>29789612
APS is only interesting if you expect HEAT from all kinds of directions like in urban warfare.
The frontal HEAT protection of modern tanks is so stupid high that there is nothing that could penetrate the frontal armour of the M1, Leopard 2 and co.
>>29788097
Did you post any?
>>29788073
I'm not claiming either the Abrams or Leopard's gunners sights are weaknesses.
You're the one claiming there's plenty of opportunity to hit the top.
Which there isn't, there's even more opportunity to hit the rear of a tank but no one is armoring that up aside from maybe some cage armor.
Because in order to actually protect against modern or even legacy AT weapons you need a substantial amount of material, which adds weight.
It is simply not worth the extra weight to armor up areas that are extremely unlikely (roof) or at least uncommon (rear) to get hit.
>>29788073
Leopards would have to actually see combat to judge the frontal weakspots compared to a roof weakspot.
>>29789681
Even if the ATGM doesn't penetrate it can still cause enough damage to mission kill a tank.
Take the T-90 that was hit not too long ago in Syria, the TOW hit in an awkward spot and did not penetrate but it still destroyed optics and forced the tank to be removed from the battle for repairs.
If you're capable there is no reason to not give your tanks APS.
>>29789968
You didn't read the thread?
>>29790015
Only that the weight penalty of APS systems aren't worth if you are also dealing with KE penetrators.
So adding more passive armour would increase your protection level more than an APS.
>>29790231
Even if your opponent is fielding tanks actual tank on tank engagements would be very rare compared to how often your tanks would be getting attacked by HEAT warheads of various types.
The US and Britain concluded in the 60s that something like 70% of all tank casualties would come from some form of HEAT attack. It is for this reason the US chose the British Chobham over the German perforated steel when designing the M1.
These days I would say that number may be even higher in a conventional conflict.
>>29775883
>oh no, a 35 year old design can't compete with a concept design that's not even been produced yet!
Who'dathunkit?
>>29790304
>The US and Britain concluded in the 60s that something like 70% of all tank casualties would come from some form of HEAT attack. It is for this reason the US chose the British Chobham over the German perforated steel when designing the M1.
None of the statements are true.
HEAT suffered from the plain fact that it was inaccurate as fuck.
The hit probability of a T-62 when firing a KE round at 1000m was around 70% while firing a HEAT missile it was less than 25%.
And that was against a target that moves around 19km/h.
>>29790304
>German perforated steel
What?
>>29775985
Zika will effectively sterilize the brown people, not to worry.
>>29777580
>france is 15% arab
not really
>britain is around the same
no it's not
>sweden is doomed
it's a lot more cucked but not doomed
>germany is turkey 2.0
no denial there
>norway with high levels of immigrants
you said it yourself
>the us doesnt have 50% nonwhites
not 50% but about 65% everyone else is a spic, nigger or sandmonkey
>>29790607
>yfw America has, at minimum, twice as many whites as any other country
