Nuke Thread
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You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
Nuke Thread? Nuke Thread.
A few threads a ago OPpenheimer posted a list of book on nuclear strategy, and if anyone has a copy of it, it would be appreciated.
fuck yeah been waiting for this thread to happen
>>29765767
Whoops wrong image.
I'd like to talk about a controversial topic.
I feel like I'm biased, because I'm American and WW2 is in my heritage from all sides of my family. I had a great grandfather that marched through Hiroshima 3 days after it was bombed, another great grandfather also served.
Anyways, what I've been told and taught is that the Japanese were preparing to fight to the last man, and women were being told it would be better for them to kill their children before committing hari kari to avoid the dishonor and pain of torture and enslavement Americans were bringing. Basically, it's the other side of the propaganda. To the Japanese, we were like ISIS executioners, only worse.
It's not a well known fact, not as well known as it should be, that to this day if a soldier gets wounded he is awarded a vintage Purple Heart minted in anticipation of the casualties Americans would receive during an invasion of mainland Japan. Nobody can say for sure, but my money is on those 70 year old medals lasting us at least a few more decades if nothing horrible happens.
The point is this, my understanding is that if the two nukes weren't dropped, the Japanese wouldn't have surrendered, and the death and carnage from an actual invasion would have been unimaginable. It would have been within the realm of possibility that Japanese citizens would be endangered like bald eagles.
so... was it the right thing to do?
>>29765815
From a reasonable point of view, looking back, no it wasn't nessesary. And it did in fact consitute a war crime. But i also say that it was the right thing to do. Holding enemy civillian lives as more valuable then friendly soldiers lives is just wrong.
The most common argument was that the bombs where dropped to create and incentive for the Soviets to not continue west from there current footing in europe.
>>29765815
From a pure numbers standpoint, it made a lot of sense. You bomb a couple hundred thousand Japanese and in return you don't have to sacrifice over a million GIs/Marines to basically ethnically cleanse Japan.
>>29765815
>marched through Hiroshima 3 days after it was bombed
GTFO
>>29765815
I would suggest listening to Logical Insanity by Dan Carlin. He spends about an hour on this subject matter.
It's one of those things where there was no good decision. People can say it was a show of force to the Russians to keep their dirty mitts off of Japan after the war ended. Some say we just wanted to test our new toys.
Some say it was the only way to end the war.
The Japanese government were seeking surrender opportunities. The Japanese military were still going balls to the wall with suicide attacks and desperate attempts to keep the US war machine at bay. So was the decision necessary? It's hard to say, it's one of those wonderful grey areas.
I kinda skimmed over this article and it had some good points in it. I didin't have a lot of time to read it in depth because I have to leave for work in 4 minutes. But it has some references that allude to the Japs wanting to talk about surrender prior to August of '45 and as early as '44 with the Japs approaching China to talk.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_weber.html
>>29765837
I've been to Nagasaki and the city and Japanese people are cool.
So if you Americans want to clean out your proxy "terrorists" in Al-Raqqa and Mosul by dropping two midsized nukes, in 50 years you would also have western tourists able to visit the historical ruins in Syria without them being abducted and beheaded by ISIS, Al-nusra, SFA or any other muslim "moderate" that America, Saudi, UAE and Turkey support.
Hell you guys could even claim that the ISIL terrorists detonated it themselves and no-one would care. (Also it would make your America Great Again)
>>29765767
Far Cry 2
>>29765351
God imagine being the luck bastard that got to shoot that.
>>29765351
Wait, did that cannon shoot a nuke...?
>>29767555
Why yes, it did. In fact there where 155mm nukes in the US arsenal up until 92, being the W48 which could be fir3d from your run of the mill artillery piece. A tactical nuclear device, it was expected to be used in area denial and to break up armoured formations.
>>29765815
>>29765837
>>29765876
It WAS the right thing to do, even if you are Japanese. The destruction of two nukes pales in comparison to the 2+ million Japanese that would have likely died during an invasion, very likely far more.
Not only that but then you would also have things like disease take hold, and the cultural history of the invaded location and likely the rest of Japan would have been completely erased. I remember vividly from my studies pictures of Japanese shrines and historical locations, hundreds of years old, razed black by invading forces.
Plus, you'd have one hell of a problem with rape and abuse of citizens. Americans like to talk Nanking up, but there was some hella bad criminals that America hosted in Japan from 1946-70. It got so bad they actually started executing offenders by firing line Soviet-style when they committed crimes.
Keep in mind this is during a peaceful occupation, not a military operation and combat locale.
Basically, if you were a Japanese commander in 1945, the only way to preserve your country and its heritage is to surrender (though, that being said the option still isn't very enticing. "Do I want to be nuked again, die of starvation during a final stand or surrenderand let my country become a doormat for drunken GIs? Hmmmm....)
>>29765876
>ihr.org
Please no.
The nuclear weapons were the only way the US knew of to secure surrender under the terms they wanted.
>>29769540
>2+ million Japanese that would have likely died during an invasion
Add a zero to that.
>>29765351
maybe it's because i'm a pussyfaggot, but nuclear weaponry scares the shit out of me.
the thought that we can basically fucking destroy all of mankind in less than a day is a little hard to handle.
>>29765830
Your daily reminder that Hiroshima was home to tens of thousands of soldiers and a major military command.
>>29769353
Thanks for the answer, really cool
how pervasive is the fallout from modern nuclear weapons? I understand it's not exactly a "dirty bomb" so how long would lethal amounts of radiation stick around after a blast?
>>29772765
Lots of different factors enter into this.
It can vary from a few hours/days, all the way to months in areas directly downwind of surface bursts.
In general, fallout decays according to the 7/10 rule.
For every 7-fold increase in time, radiation falls by a factor of 10.
>>29772823
danks Oppenheimer. You're the best.
>>29765815
I'm biased as well, and I'll admit I took a biased approach towards sources. But basically though some Japanese wanted to surrender, it wasn't until Hiroshima and the subsequent Russian invasion of Manchuria that they were relevant in anything. Even then you had hardliners who refused to accept it.
Anyone have an accurate graphic of a typical nuclear blast radius on a map? I live a few towns over (like 30 minute drive) from a sub base and I wanna know if I'd be safe if it was hit.
>>29772978
There is no "Typical" nuclear blast radius. Height of burst, yield, terrain, all factor into it.
I would suggest playing with nukemap.
Hey Oppenheimer, do you happen to remember the list of titles OP was referring to in >>29765351 ?
>>29773086
On Thermonuclear War By Herman Kahn
On Limited Nuclear War in the 21st Century by Jeffrey Larsen and Kerry Kartchner
The Evolution of Nuclear Strategy, Third Edition by Lawrence Freedman
Russian Strategic Nuclear Forces by Pavel Podvig
Nuclear Statecraft: History and Strategy in America's Atomic Age by Francis J. Gavin
Eating Grass: The Making of the Pakistani Bomb by Feroz Khan
Prevention, Pre-emption and the Nuclear Option: From Bush to Obama by Aiden Warren
Nuclear Deterrence in the 21st Century: Lessons from the Cold War for a New Era of Strategic Piracy by Thérèse Delpech
Analyzing Strategic Nuclear Policy by Charles L. Glaser
Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes
Dark Sun: The Making of the Hydrogen Bomb by Richard Rhodes
Nuclear Strategy in the Modern Era: Regional Powers and International Conflict by Vipin Narang
Building the H Bomb: A Personal History By Kenneth W Ford
>>29773127
Awesome. Thank you kindly.
>>29773127
You're a gentleman and a scholar.
>>29770796
Very true, and dresden contained factories vital to the war effort. Doesn't mean it wasn't a warcrime. And if the alloes had lost the war they would have been held accountable for there actions.
But as i said in the first post, I beleive it was the right thing to do. And if i where placed in the same situation, to either bomb enemy civillians or commit friendly soldiers to a battle likely to kill tens of thousands of them, im going to going with bombing. Knowing full well that it is legally defined as a warcrime.
>>29773127
OP here. Thanks you so very much for that. All these threads have helped me steer my degree in a way more interesting direction. Nulcear policy is so damn interesting.
i just finished reading command and control. pretty interesting. did not know that there have been in all 32 broken arrows since 1950...
>>29773425
Let alone the Empty Quivers...
>>29774642
Not fast enough.
>>29774773
They put him in a medically induced coma for most of it, but he was "alive for almost 90 days. I imagine he was brain dead for a good portion of it. Radiation is scary shit.
>>29767555
Yeah, it's the Atomic Annie
>>29774642
Should have shot him and Louis Soltin.
>>29774642
>Massive rad exposure
>"Ouchi"
Also,
>massive rad exposure, body literally dying and melting to bits
>kept alive for nearly 3 goddamn months
Jesus christ Japan, thats a miniature Nanking right there. I'd blow my brains out 5mins after taking that much rad.
>>29774993
Did we at least learn anything from their deaths?
>>29774642
>Ouchi
sure looks like one
>>29775030
How the body systems fail in response to massive radiation damage, how they attempt to cope.
How long can someone remain capable of tasks requiring cognitive and coordination (flying a plane, turning a key) when exposed to high doses of ionizing radiation.
goddammit, I knew I should've taken pictures at the national nuclear museum yesterday.
>>29765351
most people don't realize how fucking gigantic atomic annie is.
it looks like someone took a iowa gun and put it on a traverse/azimuth platform.
the trucks' windshields are like 8 feet off the ground.
also, B52s are motherfucking gigantic.
>>29775122
>national nuclear museum
Going to be there in a few weeks. Well done museum.
>>29775028
He was in a medically induced coma, don't think too much about it
>>29775142
it's really, really cool.
check out the boneyard thing they have.
granted, you've probably seen all that shit before, but getting to get up close and personal with a B47 and a titan 2 is quite the experience.
>>29765884
I feel like those are two separate scenarios, though. We dropped nukes then, everyone was like "Oh, shit, better not shit in America's cereal for a bit". We drop nukes now, we might end up getting hit by Dead Hand, or accidentally trigger WW3 cos Pakistan and India see the flash and decide to get their blows in now, or maybe get hit by an international coalition of "FUCK YOU YOU AREN'T SUPPOSED TO USE THE DAMN THINGS YOU FUCKING NUTJOBS". Not to mention the absolute PR field day Daesh & co. would have with that...
>>29773127
>Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes
Just want to pop in to second the fuck out of this one. Reading it for the second time now, fucking amazing book.
>>29773127
also, Command & Control by Eric Schossler
it's mainly about the damascus, ar incident with a titan 2 but also goes through the history of nuclear weapons and all the mistakes in their history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Damascus_Titan_missile_explosion
I listened to it in audiobook form on my drive to and from vegas, it's about 22 hours long and great.
>>29765815
You're forgetting the couple hundred thousand civilians that the IJA was murdering every month near the end, and the plans to accelerate that effort (and kill all surviving US POWs) if the US had invaded.
Using the Bomb was the only moral, sane, and ethical choice. Even then, hardliners launched a coup attempt that was only stopped by a few mistakes and lucky breaks (including an air raid that slowed the coup and put guards on alert).
>>29773127
Youre my favorite tripfag, Oppenheimer
<3
>>29773127
Although it isn't nuclear strategy, have you ever heard of a book called "Defense of Hill 781: An Allegory of Modern Mechanized Combat"?
>>29765830
Why wasn't it necessary? Dropping the bomb saved lives. Putting aside the geopolitical ramifications, the purpose of war is to induce the enemy to subordinate his will to your own. If we can kill fewer humans in the process why on earth wouldn't we?
>>29765884
I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Are you trying to equate a total war to isolated terrorist attacks by extremist groups? The two cases could not be more distinct.
>>29775948
What do you mean "coup"?
Within Japan against the Japanese government, or in America against the bomb?
>>29777396
>Within Japan against the Japanese government
That one. Some military commanders still didn't want to surrender.
>>29765830
In what laws at the time (1940-1945), does it constitute a warcrime? By pretty much all laws in effect at the time, all the all arial attacks , be it London, Dresden, Tokyo and so, fall way inside the law. Un-moral? Yeah. Horrible? Fuck yeah. Pointless? Might have been, at least in hindsight. Illigal? No.
>>29765870
This
>>29770698
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Giant_Lance
what the fuck
>>29777331
I have not. Ill look into it
>>29775142
Is that the classified one? If not, have you been there? Is that why you never contribute when discussions on the inner workings of weapons arises?
>>29778058
Hahaha thats awesome. Ballsy as fuck, completely irrational, but awesome.
have some more nuclear test footage.
>>29773453
"the seizure, theft, or loss of a functioning nuclear weapon"
I'm sorry, but how in the fuck do you lose a live fucking nuke?
I'd expect more than duct tape and zipties if we're dealing with nuclear weapons.
>>29770698
to me, thats what makes it so beautiful.
really makes you think about your life, knowing that somewhere, 2 dudes could turn keys and end human life as we know it.
>>29778190
>Is that the classified one?
No
>If not, have you been there?
Yes
>Is that why you never contribute when discussions on the inner workings of weapons arises?
Nuclear weapon design information is secret from its inception. Unlike all other classified information which must go through a process to be classified, nuclear weapon design information is assumed to be classified from the moment of its inception until it goes through a declassification process.
Thats why I can not talk about it, even if there are very in depth wikipedia articles on it.
>>29777396
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABj%C5%8D_incident
Basically, a bunch of junior officers stormed the palace and tried to prevent the Emperor from broadcasting the surrender. It failed because most of the high-ranking officials didn't support it at that point. War minister Anami in >>29772958, the one who could've helped them the most, committed sudoku because the Emperor had convinced him surrender was the only way at that point.
