So that whole well regulated militia thing, and the definition that 'the militia' means 'the people'.
Isn't that kind of fucked up? Are we expected to just...get rounded up and made to fight or get hanged as traitors? Volkssturm style?
>>29714464
>Implying the 2nd amendment is the only amendment.
Don't get it twisted big dog.
No one is going to force you. N one forces people to own guns.
>>29714489
Unless they literally force a gun in your hands, that is.
>>29714464
>Are we expected to just...get rounded up and made to fight or get hanged as traitors?
It goes more down like this
>make a militia when the time really comes (lmao)
>get killed/arrested by your buddies when you think they're on your side
>all 13 of them are actually undercover FBI moles
can't win nigga
>>29714464
All men between ages of 17 and 45 are in the Reserve Militia.
t. Militia act of 1903
Militias are infinitely preferable to a draft.
Militias are purely defensive, Federals are globalist traitorous fuckheads bleeding our blood and treasure for personal gain.
>>29714496
I'm alright with that.
You, the people bearing arms, are the ones who secure the free state by regulating the militia. That's how I've always read it.
When you read it like that, with the historical background of unjust taxation without representation being forced on the colonists by a military who were quartered in their own homes against their will, it makes a lot of sense.
I mean, for fucks sake, we fought a long and bloody war with England over it. 2A is basically the founders saying "fuck the gubbmint military, we'll shoot them if they try some unjust shit again like the redcoats did"
Hello, NSA. Plz no watchlist, I'm just making commentary on constitutional history.
>>29714464
Here, OP, educate yourself.
>http://www.constitution.org/mil/cs_milit.htm
>http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/library/militia/2-1.html
>http://www.claytoncramer.com/primary/primary.html
>http://www.constitution.org/mil/how2actv.htm
>>29714515
So we shouldn't use the argument that the militia is the people, because if we went along with the liberals' argument and let only the militia own guns, then only able bodied males aged 17 to 45 would have the right to bare arms.
>>29715479
>the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED
>>29714464
A militia is not an organization. "militia" individually refers to the able-bodied military-age males of an area. A "militia" as an organization is an organized militia, "organized" being the operative word. "Regulated" has nothing to do with regulations, which is another fundamental misunderstanding.
A well regulated militia being necessary to the defense of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
An armed man is a free man, and a free man promulgates freedom.
It's not about keeping citizens armed to draft them into service, it's about having a gun behind every blade of grass. That's supposed to be obvious from the "free nation" part, but no one ever bothers to look at notes from the constitutional conventions.
A militia is not an organization or group. You don't make a militia, you organize a militia.
>>29715479
No, because the individual right to keep and bear arms is not affected by the act.
>>29715965
>>29716001
What I'm trying to say is that we never should go along with allowing only the militia to be armed because at worst that means the National Guard and and at best it means only able bodied males aged 17 to 45.
But you already agree with that.
>>29714464
Our rights grow out of much older English legal traditions regarding having an armed populace. King Henry VIII had Englishmen practice longbow archery every Sunday after mass. He once lamented that too many young men neglected their duty in favor of playing soccer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaoLMW5AF4Y
Listen to Scalia on the 2nd Amendment.
>>29714464
>get rounded up and made to fight or get hanged as traitors?
The 2nd amendment has nothing to do with a militia, it simply references it
Specific bit on militias starts here.
https://youtu.be/DaoLMW5AF4Y?t=24m
>>29715479
You are on the wrong side of the square/rectangle question here.
Remember that a Well Regulated Militia was a militia that brought its own arms, powder, shot, and boots when called up. compared to a poorly regulated militia, which showed up expecting to be issued such things.
Remember that the text is
>A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
The Militia is not the people, the Militia is a subset of the people. The Militia's right to bear arms isn't protected, it's the
>Right of THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms
that
>Shall Not Be Infringed
So no, arguing that only military aged males have 2nd amendment protections is specious.
Its a funny joke, saying the American citizenry is a militia, its just ideological masturbation by libs like Jefferson who was in love with citizen Yeomanry farmers, and not reality. Actual military commanders like Washington notably hated militia for being incompetent drunken cowards and had none of that pie-in-the-sky citizen militia crap.
>>29717171
>militia can't do the job of line infantry as well as line infantry
>we might not need militia
>nurses can't do the job of doctors as well as doctors
>we might not need nurses
>steak knives can't do the job of combat knives as well as combat knives
>we might not need steak knives
>home refrigerators can't do the job of refrigerated warehouses
>we might not need home refrigerators
>>29716717
Nicely put.
>>29717171
>Actual military commanders like Washington notably hated militia for being incompetent drunken cowards and had none of that pie-in-the-sky citizen militia crap
This
Washington knew the militia were the second bananas.
Obviously he didn't think it was completely useless for combating threats, be they internal or external, but it was always made to be a supplementation if not substitution force
The Militia had all sorts of problems from it's inception. Leaders were elected based on popularity as opposed to competence or merit, training was inconsistent and disorganized from one division to the next, It was extremely difficult instituting training on a regular and consistent basis as it was all a volunteer force who supplied themselves on their own dime. For that same reason, a member of the militia could abandon their post at any given time, even in the middle of a war, and not legally be punished for it.
The incompetence of the Militia is partially to blame for the toll of the war of 1812. Not saying a professional army could have adverted the whole thing, but it went on two years longer than it should of partially because of reliance on the under performing militia
>>29716591
Dear OP,
It looks like the "right of the people to keep and bear arms" is granted by God, or at least older than any single nation. The constitution recognizes this right, with particular deference to the fact that you, being an able bodied male age 13-xx may be forced to fight (possibly using your own weapons) at some point in time.
So, the weapons of war are yours, because they intend for you to be the ones using them.
>>29714464
>Isn't that kind of fucked up? Are we expected to just...get rounded up and made to fight or get hanged as traitors? Volkssturm style?
It's more that every able bodied American man is expected to defend his home in case of invasion. Think of how badly the Brits shit their pants scrambling to arm the Home Guard in WWII. The idea behind the Second Amendment is that you can instantly call up a Bubba Squad and have them bring their own funs and ammo.
You're expected to become a Wolverine.
2A = Local ability to resist tyrants, invaders
>>29720240
>Shitnobodyeversaid.jpg
>>29720223
This seems much more reasonable to me.
>>29720240
>fake quote
>SunTzu.jpg
Because a japanese admiral was apparently a knowledgeable source everything other than fucking naval warfare.
>>29714502
>mfw joining a militia and when the time come disarm/kill/hold at gunpoint the other fags and shoot a signal flare for the feds
My dreams in a nutshell
>>29716032
>National Guard
>Militia
No. State Self Defense Force is considered militia since they don't take orders from the Feds. Their orders are through the State Governor only. National Guard is basically an extension of the Army for the homeland but underfunded.
I always thought well regulated should mean that all of my firearms and ammo purchases should be subsidized and not taxed.
>>29717346
you're right. citizen militias do make great for great meat shields while the actual military... oh yeah, slaughters the citizen militias because the government told them to.
>>29720541
m8, in its time the jap navy wasn't half-bad.
Of course that all changed when they poked the bear too hard.
>>29721334
>what are insurgencies?
Do you expect everybody in the military to go along with their orders like sheep or do you not think they are people?
Hey idiot, this isn't /pol
>>29721429
you're expecting the military to be told the truth. if you were an evil dictatorship would you really give your military the facts and let them murder you? no, you'd tell them these are rebels and feed them a steady diet of lies and deceit. then let them lose on the militias that are trying to "destroy democracy and freedom"
>>29721429
History, in the US, has shown that the military will obey orders to attack American citizens.
>>29714464
You're registered to vote aren't you? Then you signed up for the draft.
Have a nice war!
>>29721503
>You're registered to vote aren't you? Then you signed up for the draft.
look at this newcunt
Drafting is contingent upon registered with selective service which every male aged 18 has to do.
>>29715965
...and no one can keep gun registries nor require gun safes, nor regulate nor manage civilian arms sales.
But you're allowed to ban explosives, personal nuclear devices and machine guns.
>>29721503
>Doesn't know you sign up for the draft when you renew your driver's licence at 18.
>>29721546
>thinks driver's licenses are renewed at 18
It's 21 dumbass.
>>29721577
Nope not at all. At least in my state, assuming you get your licence at 16, your required to renew at 18, 21, then every 5 years after that. You might know if you were old enough to drive, fag.
>>29721518
Yeah, the two forms of draft dodging were either no signing up for /ss/ or, having signed up, refusing to report to a recruitment center when called up to do so.
>>29721594
>gets his license at 16
what a joke
i bet you let Saudis fuck your mom too
>>29721497
>>29721490
It would be difficult to keep the U.S. military whole in a situation like you have described. many The military is not a homogenous hive mind of absolute retards. You have to remember the men who will be sent out to keep control, the National Guard, are members of that community. They go home every night and get the same news you and I do. An order to fire upon American citizens will not be taken lightly by any officer or NCO worth his salt. Everybody in the military has an opinion, but they are discouraged from expressing it due to unit cohesion.
And what point in American military history has that happened? At what point did an order to fire upon American Citizens happen lightly?
>>29721629
The Bonus Army after WW1.
>>29721629
>At what point did an order to fire upon American Citizens happen lightly?
Kent State
>>29721617
How is that a joke? Being able to drive when your 16 is actually pretty awesome. Don't tell me your from some eurocuck nation where you can't do shit until 18.
>>29721668
Spot the redneck
>>29721678
Hah you could be right if I said I got a farmer's permit at 15, but I never would have qualified.
>>29721642
Controversy surrounding the Bonus Army
>President Hoover ordered the assault stopped. MacArthur chose to ignore the president and ordered a new attack, claiming that the Bonus March was an attempt to overthrow the U.S. government. Major Dwight D.
>Eisenhower, later the 34th president of the United States, served as one of MacArthur's junior aides.[17] Believing it wrong for the Army's highest-ranking officer to lead an action against fellow American war veterans, he strongly advised MacArthur against taking any public role: "I told that dumb son-of-a-bitch not to go down there," he said later. "I told him it was no place for the Chief of Staff."
Aftermath of Kent State
>"The city was an armed camp. The mobs were smashing windows, slashing tires, dragging parked cars into intersections, even throwing bedsprings off overpasses into the traffic down below. This was the quote, student protest. That's not student protest, that's civil war."
>"I never heard any command to fire. That's all I can say on that." Shafer—a Ravenna city councilman and former fire chief—went on to say, "That's not to say there may not have been, but with all the racket and noise, I don't know how anyone could have heard anything that day." Shafer also went on to say that "point" would not have been part of a proper command to open fire.
Those incidents did not go down lightly. Kent State forced the Army to revaluate the methods the National Guard uses for crowd control.
>>29721692
i want to put a farming vehicle tag on a sports car so bad
>>29721698
>Those incidents did not go down lightly
So what? They still happened and the men who served obeyed orders.
>>29721712
That's true that they did happen, but I think the other poster is trying to say that the victimized would have the popular support of the nation and would be able to strike back and hang the right people given the crime deemed it necessary.
>>29721629
This is the shit the government doesn't teach you in high school.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot
My great grandpa was there.
>>29721841
Sorry, disregard post they didnt actually call in the military to shoot blacks, they had to stop the riots.
Shits crazy though worth a read.
>>29714464
It doesn't mean you will be rounded up and shit, but if you are able bodied 18+ and can fight to defend your country, then you should and stop being a faggot and letting everyone else do it for you. like Red Dawn motherfucker. Don't end up a bootlicker because you sound like one.
>>29721629
>And what point in American military history has that happened? At what point did an order to fire upon American Citizens happen lightly?
Bro you need to read up on American Labor history. Corporations used to use the National Guard to break strikes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre
>>29714464
Lawyerfag here. Wrote a supreme court brief on the subject.
When it was written, the Second Amendment served a purely political function. I provided people the means to (1) check government tyranny through an armed citizenry, (2) provide for the common defense (sound familiar?).
The right was pulled directly from English common law. Americans look to Blackstone's Commentaries of the Laws of England as the preeminent authority guiding our interpretations of English common law. The relevant section reads:
"The fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject... is that of having arms for their defense, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law." The important part is that the right "is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression."
>>29716509
This guy is fucking dead wrong.
[cont]
>>29714464
>Are we expected to just...get rounded up and made to fight or get hanged as traitors
>getting rounded up when you LITERALLY HAVE GUNS
It's your own fault at that point.
>>29714464
have you not heard of the draft?
also...what kind of panty waste are you that you wouldnt willingly bear arms against an invading force?
>>29722295
Without getting too far in the weeds, the essential purpose of the Second Amendment is to make America into a fortress. Essentially, nobody can conquer America without murdering every one of us to a man. This preserves our freedom even in death; over a country of ashes, there is nothing left to rule.
The other function is to allow you to VIOLENTLY resist your government as a means of final political opposition. In this respect, the southern States actually used the 2nd amendment properly when they asserted their 10th amendment rights. It's just that slavery is the dumbest fucking issue to hang your hat on, so everybody sane thinks they were just acting retarded.
One tradition of the founders' age that has broken down over time: men of fighting age actually held a MORAL DUTY to "keep" a firearm. In other words, they were supposed to maintain their funs, train with them, and be ready to serve in their local militia.
>>29714485
I'm always wary of these type of quotes from founding fathers. Did he actually day that?
>>29722364
>over a country of ashes, there is nothing left to rule.
well, there's the clay. and the natural resources that come with it. desu I think if you invaded america that's what you'd be after, not the burgers themselves.
>>29722364
BUT the second amendment NEVER held a right to "self defense" as we currently know it (until very recently in a very stupid supreme court decision). The federal right guaranteed POLITICAL right to bear arms (i.e., in a militia). Any PRIVATE right was left to the states under the 10th amendment.
States and municipalities rightfully restricted their citizenry from carrying weapons wherever they wanted, or using them in the private context. This respected the right to KEEP arms, but regulated the right to BEAR arms. In other words you're not guaranteed the right to shoot things unless you're acting as a militiaman.
For instance, the Virginia constitution. Held that a "well regulated miliatia" was "under strict subordination to, and governed by the civil power." Virginia law also held that militia men "shall constantly keep the aforesaid arms.... ready to be produce whenever called for by his commanding officer" Act for Regulating and Disciplining the Militia, Ch 1, 1785.
>>29722426
These kinds of laws are widespread in the early days of America. EX: Bonston's gunpowder law banned gunpowder in any "Dwelling house, Stable, Barn, Out-house, Ware-house, Store Shop, or other Building, within the Town of Boston." (Easy to find in SCOTUS opinion, 554 U.S. at 684-85)
BUT at the same time, the Massachusetts constitution guaranteed the right "to keep and to bear arms for the common defense." Massachusetts Constitution of 1780. In other words, the people of Massachusetts found that the right to bear arms was consisted with a complete functional ban on the use of those arms in the private context.
Where you can't have gunpowder, you can't shoot your gun, in essence granting a complete restriction the right to bear arms in the city. Furthermore, you couldn't have gunpowder in your house, meaning there was NO WAY TO SHOOT NIGGERS BREAKING IN. That's because the constitution DOES NOT GUARANTEE THIS RIGHT. It was never intended to do this.
>>29722583
Also, the "well regulated" language was actually debated during the Constitutional Convention, revealing that it was not simply rhetoric (do some research on 2nd amendment and Patrick Henry and you'll find this quick). You can see the same idea pop up in countless American militia statutes. Act of March 2, 1781, Massachusetts Laws ("Whereas it is a Duty and interest of every State, to have the Militia therefore properly armed, TRAINED, and in complete Readiness to defend against... Invasion")
Tl;dr: The second amendment does not protect some random fucker out innawoods, unless said random fucker was training to defend America. In that case,it is the moral obligation of every American to keep a gun and to train with it, so that you ma use it to defend our homeland and our constitution to your dying breath.
If said redneck is training to fulfill his fantasy of shooting niggers that break into his house, THERE IS NO HISTORICAL RIGHT TO HAVE A GUN IN AMERICA.
>>29722601
who cares if it's misconstrued? america is the last bastion of true freedom on this earth, even if today's america wasn't intended it's probably better than what it was intended to be.
>>29722724
I disagree. I live in California, and I think the loss of mandated firearm safety and competency training has really set us back.
Most of our commie laws come from two things (1) accidental discharges, and (2) gang violence in the 80's/90's.
Regarding accidental discharge (ex: kid shoots himself with mom's gun), laws restricting the storage of guns (like the Boston gunpowder law) would keep kids from blowing each other apart. Also, safety and competency training would keep dumbfucks from shooting their friends.
In the second case, a functional militia could have been used to resist gang violence under the police powers that the States hold under the 10th amendment. IMHO, a military unit can prevent organized crime more effectively than county/municipal police who are designed to REACT to incidents (rather than prevent). Think self-imposed martial law, not imposed by the federal government, not on the taxpayer dime, existing only as long as the locals deem necessary.
>>29721841
> It suggests that Rowland had a simple accident, such as tripping and steadying himself against the girl
Lmao cuckolds literally inventing ridiculous excuses for niggers.
DINDUNUFIN
>>29720151
washington raised a militia to put down a rebellion.
>>29722601
Up next on Magistrate Judith, 1778.
A dastardly Negro has burgled the house of one Jeremiah Whitaker, who dispatched the fiend, having caught him in the act!
The Negro's owner, Samuel Sneed, seeks recompense for the value of his now-deceased property.
In counter-claim, Whitaker states that it is he who deserves redress, citing Sneed's negligence in duly securing his Negro.
>>29720223
>It's more that every able bodied American man is expected to defend his home in case of invasion.
Elaborate on this "expected to".
>>29727477
Moral duty
>>29720541
Even if he didn't say it. It's still true.
>>29720541
The reason this apocryphal quote is plausible enough to get passes around is that Yamamoto attended an American college.
>>29727716
>Moral duty
>>29716001
>A militia is not an organization...You don't make a militia, you organize a militia.
sorry, rephrase that?
>>29722601
>THERE IS NO HISTORICAL RIGHT TO HAVE A GUN IN AMERICA.
Contradicted by your own posting. The right to own a gun was protected, the right to use it in self defense was not necessarily protected.
As you note, those are two different things. But then you backtrack?
>>29722601
Yes, if anything the "well regulated" clause would be strong grounds for the constitutionality of a law providing an ammo and training subsidy.
>>29729814
The points aren't actually mutually exclusive.
The first point was to counter the dumb poster that said militias were a second thought, rather than the primary purpose of the second amendment. To the contrary, the recently recognized rights to own a gun for purposes of self-defense or recreation are not the original intent of the second amendment.
As the founders understood, this kind of ownership should be a privilege... like driving is a privilege, not a right. Locals should be able to decide if they want people shooting TVs in their backyards on a state by state basis.
In answering the OP, the point was that the second amendment was crafted to facilitate resistance to political oppression. The language reflects the fact that there was an expectation that able bodied Americans would offer themselves up for militia service if need be. A "round up" would never be necessary because your moral duty is to protect the constitution.
And I agree with your second point.
>>29716591
RIP Scalia, now that he's gone Clinton has made it completely obvious that she will do a lot to destroy and infringe upon the 2A.
>>29729814
>the right to use it in self defense was not necessarily protected
According to Heller v DC it is.
Y'all niggas postin in a Clinton shill thread.
>>29715479
>what is the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment
