I want to buy a WWII era M1911A1 to display in my Patriot themed man cave. What is the price and what are some things to look out for?
>>29594257
Wait to buy one from CMP for about $1000.
>>29594291
Whats a CMP?
>>29594313
Just Google CMP 1911. That'll get ya there.
>>29594257
Be ready to send some cash buddy. Especially if you want one still in the box like you pictured
>>29594402
Eh, theres a website I found that asks $2,400-$3,500 for a nice Colt. I was hoping someone would mention a place that sells for less. Going to Google that CMP stuff now. Canadian Mounted Police?
>>29594257
If you want an authentic WWII era you're gonna pay a bit
If you want one that just looks WWII era just buy a Springfield milspec for like $600
>>29594474
Civilian Marksmanship Program.
They sell surplus military firearms. They're getting in 1911s now. They'll be going for around $1000, more if you want better condition. But they will be cheaper than any other thing you can find.
>>29594511
Cool. Yeah I am just looking for one for collecting, I only carry and shoot lolonly9mm
>>29594511
Aren't they supposedly modified from what they would have been in the 40's?
>>29594663
Not in any meaningful way. Even if you get fucky sights, rust dusting, lack of bluing, or chipping, you can guaranteed fix it. Or restore it, whichever your fancy.
If you only want a wallhanger I'd say to just restore the outer surface and leave the rest alone.
>>29594741
What about a wallhanger heirloom? I want one to go with my M1 Carbine, so when my son plays Call of Duty 36 on his Playstation 7, and gets amped on WWII, I can surprise him with dank WWII guns.
>>29594960
>wallhanger heirloom
There really isn't such a thing when it comes to 1911's. Most of the "demilled" 1911's were all crushed and sold as scrap or stripped of serviceable parts. Your best bet would be a mix master Remington Rand for a "cheap" WWII 1911. You're still going to be looking at around $1200-$1500 though.
>>29594960
My recommendation would be to purchase the standard GI Auto Ordinance clone. They run around $420, add on a set of WWII plastic Keyes grips for $10 and you boom, you have a reasonably accurate portrayal of a 1940's era USGI 1911A1. The only noticeable difference is that instead of having "Model 1911A1 US Army" on the frame, it has it on the passenger side of the slide and the manufacturer's rollmark on the frame above the serial number instead of to the rear of the passenger side of the slide.
>>29594257
Get one made prior to WWII if at all possible.
The ones made in WWII were pretty junky.
They were almost entirely unhardened, except for the slide stop, and only had a life expectancy of like 5,000 rounds iirc.
That's one of the reasons we replaced them with the M9.
>>29595011
>Passenger side
Whoops, I meant driver's side
>>29595011
I used to own one of those.
The trigger was quite heavy. (At least 8 pounds)
And the trigger also had very sharp edges that stated to really hurt after only firing a few mags.
>>29595014
>The ones made in WWII were pretty junky.They were almost entirely unhardened
1911's made before 1924 had even worse heat treating. In 1924 when they switched to the A1, they began to harden the front 1/3 of the slide to help aid in preventing stress fractures on the slides and frames. Fully heat treated 1911's did not exist until 1947.
>>29595050
>1911's made before 1924 had even worse heat treating. In 1924 when they switched to the A1, they began to harden the front 1/3 of the slide to help aid in preventing stress fractures on the slides and frames. Fully heat treated 1911's did not exist until 1947.
That's fuddlore
They never would have made it through tens of thousands of rounds in the trials without heat treatment.
>>29595035
The trigger on mine isn't too bad. It's not a match grade trigger by any means, but it's also a $400 1911 that's made in the US. Is yours a Kahr or a West Hurley?
>>29595085
kahr
It's actually the worst trigger I've ever felt on a 1911.
I've tried everything from RIA, Norinco, Remington, Colt, American Tactical, Regent, ect.
And the Auto Ordnance had the worst trigger.
Possible of any gun I've held, actually.
It was literally painful.
>>29595072
They were oil quenched, thus heat treated slightly, but they did not figure out how to fully harden slides without warping them beyond usage until 1947. You can literally see the heat treating on the slides of Commercial and USGI 1911's produced from 1924-1947. Note the darker area on the front of the slide in this picture
>>29595121
Sounds like you got a lemon. When I bought mine, I looked over probably 6 or 7 pistols at Cabelas and I never noticed sharp edges on the triggers. They were all checkered Remington Rand style triggers.
>>29595164
They changed the trigger about a year ago I think.
I actually called them and asked about it, and they said that trigger design is on all their pistols now.
>>29595144
See, this is why I still love /k/. You learn at least one new interesting weird thing that you never knew you wanted to know until you knew it per week.
So how safe are the old 1911's? Do they merely not last quite as long, or is there a safety issue
analogous to the early Springfield 03's?
>>29595144
That's a WW2 production one that wasn't heat treated.
Ones made from the transitional models to before WW2 were heat treated.
>>29595204
>That's a WW2 production one that wasn't heat treated.
Nope, all 1911A1's manufactured from 1924-1947 only were spot hardened.
A quote from dsk on 1911forum, who is considered one of the foremost connoisseurs of 1911's:
>Colt began hardening the front 1/3 of the slide in 1925 by heating them up then quenching them in oil (thus the reason why 1925-45 slides often have darkened front ends), and a hardened insert was pressed into the breech face around the firing pin hole. The barrel locking lugs remained unhardened as there was no way to do so without warping the slides. In 1943 the slide stop notch was flame-hardened to resist peening wear, and you can tell those by a bright half-moon shaped ring of color around the notch. Slides that were properly heat treated along their entire length were developed late in WW2, but they didn't replace the older slides until after WW2. COmmercial pistols made from approximately 1950 onwards, and post-1950 GI contract slides were all properly heat-treated and thus known as "hard" slides.
>>29595191
They are safe to fire, it is just an issue of durability. They are more prone to developing stress fractures. WWII USGI 1911's were rated to last about 10,000 before wearing out, but I'm sure there are many that are well beyond that point in US Army depots that could still be fired.
>>29595287
>Nope, all 1911A1's manufactured from 1924-1947 only were spot hardened.
Wrong.
Go look at a transitional model.
I own one. It clearly isn't spot hardened.
>A quote from dsk on 1911forum, who is considered one of the foremost connoisseurs of 1911's:
This is all fuddlore.
>>29595372
>Go look at a transitional model.
I own one. It clearly isn't spot hardened.
You may very well have an earlier production slide on an A1 frame. Also, I have a 1933 Colt that the hardening line is not visible, but that doesn't mean it's not there. The hardening line is much more prevalent on parkerized pistols as the finish color is much lighter.
>This is all fuddlore.
You could always just go look it up in Clawson's book. It says the same exact thing.
>>29595471
There are no real sources for anything you've said.
It's all just fuddlore.
1911s wouldn't have lasted 6,000 rounds without a single part breakage if they weren't heat treated.
It's simply not feasible.
>>29595573
>There are no real sources for anything you've said.
I have already given you one, but instead of acknowledging you happen to be wrong this time, you continue to shitpost. Clawson's book is over 900 pages long and is the go to source for pretty much any information currently known about vintage 1911 style pistols.
>1911s wouldn't have lasted 6,000 rounds without a single part breakage if they weren't heat treated.
It's simply not feasible.
Plenty of parts broke or wore out on them, it's the frames that were rated to last 10,000 rounds before being labeled unserviceable. Although, being in active service for 75 years before being retired, I'm sure that there actually many that have gone beyond that marker and are still kicking. Many of the pistols that were rebuilt at ANAD in the 70's-80's that are still in storage and ready to issue are WWI frames with replacement slides from WWII and post-war 77 series hard slides.
>>29595686
>I have already given you one
No you haven't.
You said that you have a source.
You've done nothing to provide it.
>Plenty of parts broke or wore out on them, it's the frames that were rated to last 10,000 rounds before being labeled unserviceable.
Then why during the army trials, when it was fired until it was too hot to hold, dunked in water, and fired again, after 6,000 rounds,
were there 0 parts breakages whatsoever?
That's practically impossible without heat treatment.
>>29595686
>900 pages
That's a typo, the pocket edition is 90 pages. the full length book is 146.
>>29594257
>my Patriot themed man cave
pics are required.
If it's just display, why not a non-firing replica/conversion? Surely that's cheaper/more available?
>>29595705
You will just have to go pick up the book and read it yourself. Regardless of your opinion, any collector of 1911 pistols should have a copy of it on hand.
>Then why during the army trials, when it was fired until it was too hot to hold, dunked in water, and fired again, after 6,000 rounds,
were there 0 parts breakages whatsoever?
That's practically impossible without heat treatment.
Possibly because it was a pistol that was fitted to perfection by John Moses Browning himself. Also, if you have any knowledge of metallurgy, heating steel and dunking it into water will tighten the grain of the steel making it harder. While "Firing until too hot to hold" is not a very scientific number, it is not unreasonable to think that the steel may have been hardened after heating it to (presumably above 180 degrees Fahrenheit) and then rapidly water quenching it.
>>29595857
>Possibly because it was a pistol that was fitted to perfection by John Moses Browning himself.
No.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
There is so much wrong with this that I shouldn't even bother with the rest of your post.
>Also, if you have any knowledge of metallurgy, heating steel and dunking it into water will tighten the grain of the steel making it harder. While "Firing until too hot to hold" is not a very scientific number, it is not unreasonable to think that the steel may have been hardened after heating it to (presumably above 180 degrees Fahrenheit) and then rapidly water quenching it.
No.
Absolutely no.
>>29595900
Sorry, but i think that's the only way you will find that it is in fact, the truth if You refuse to accept it from not only myself, but the consensus hundreds of other enthusiasts and experts who have discussed this topic on dozens of different, independent forums countless times.
>>29595981
I think every single thing you said in your last post was wrong, or at least misleading.
And you want people to listen to you.
Get fucked dude.
>>29595744
Doesn't exist yet, but it will have a framed Constitution on the wall, busts of famous presidents, colonial flag, iconic American firearms, etc. Cant imagine a man cave done up any other way.
>>29595997
>I think every single thing you said in your last post was wrong, or at least misleading.
And you are entitled to your opinion, but I have read up on this issue from both books and online forums with some of the members even being authors themselves on military firearms. Your argument is "My pistol doesnt look hardened so they arent", which I hope you can see is hardly a solid basis in itself. I'm just passing on the knowledge that pretty much everyone else besides you in the vintage 1911 community seems to agree with.
>>29596046
>And you are entitled to your opinion
yeah, and you're entitled to think that hand fitting has fuck all to do with unhardened metal fatigue, JMB so much as touched the guns being tested, 180F could do jack shit to steel, and that a human would willingly touch anything even approaching 180F for any length of time
You fucking dipshit
>>29596085
>180F could do jack shit to steel
it's not about being heated to that temperature, it's the water quenching that causes it to harden. Of all heat treating processes, air cooling, annealing, case hardening etc. water cooling causes the most violent/ drastic changes.
>>29596028
interesting. id like a 'gun-try map' of firearms from different countries; non functional oldshit fine too. display my gpas nazi medal bring backs, old newspapers, etc. good luck with the cave and finding a 1911 you like
>>29594474
>Canadian Mounted Police?
lol that was awesome thank you
>>29596145
>>29595857
Wat. Man, /k/ should just be banned from talking about manufacturing processes. In very simplified terms. Steel is only hardened via quenching if it possesses above a certain percentage of carbon ("medium" or above, or about .25%) and if first heated to the point of the crystalline structure changing to austenite, which can hold more carbon in its structue, and then rapidly cooled to form martensite. The temp that the steel needs to be heated to go austenetic varies depending on alloy, but generally is above 1600 degrees Fahrenheit. This is glowing cherry red and it is extremely unlikely someone was holding a handgun heated to this degree.
