Meme or Reality?
>>29538492
Bit of both, he made boneheaded decisions to be sure but a lot of German generals after the war passed blame onto him.
>Invaded Russia during the winter
You decide.
Also I have read that the British government cancelled its assassination bounties on him later in the war because it was believed that whoever took command of the military would have been more effective and could have prolonged the fighting.
>>29538512
Pretty sure he just took credit for other people's accomplishments.
>>29538526
>june 22
>winter
>>29538492
Well, he took on the British Empire, America and the Soviet Union all at the same time and got wrecked. Had he actually somehow managed to make the Soviet Union capitulate he might have stood a chance.
>>29538610
>Russia
>>29538543
Guess what.
#1 job of a leader is taking credit for others' accomplishments.
>>29538492
He got increasingly delusional towards the end of the war and disregarded advice from his generals and thought battles would be won through sheer willpower, but this was just his own fantasy. In reality they were simply being outnumbered and running out of resources. It's clear no one could have turned the war to Germany's advantage again after Stalingrad and Kursk and if anything his poor judgement ended the war quicker. So yes he was not a good military strategist but it was exacerbated by his insanity during the final year or two
Had he allowed Gerd Von Rundstedt to move the Panzer divisions to the beaches to attack the allies sooner than June 7th in 1944, the breach in the Atlantic Wall would've been sealed and Normandy would have been a German victory.
Yes, he was a terrible and utterly disastrous military commander.
pre 1942 he was genius
1942 on, he started making some serious mistakes, such as declaring war on the US (which there were legitimate reasons for doing so, but he still shouldn't have done it).
>>29538492
Hitler was only a good strategist when he was going against opponents that Nazi Germany had a massive advantage over; be it surprise, combined arms tactics or having an army that hadn't been decapitated twice in ten years.
He attributed the early successes of the war to himself and ignored all evidence to the contrary. There are several key decisions that either came directly from Hitler himself or that he allowed to be made by his staff.
>turning local populations that despised communists more than he ever could against him, even in circumstances where they were legitimately viewing Nazi Germany as liberators
>locking his armies into place against a numerically superior opponent when their entire success hinged on mobile combined arms operations
>the wild fuckfuck games surrounding the development of small arms and war materials
>directing operations and deployments based on gamblers intuition rather than the information available to him
It goes on. I don't doubt that the upper echelons of the German military blamed him for things that were not really his fault but his penchant for being a boneheaded retard is well documented from many sources.
He made plenty of blunders, but he gets a lot of undue blame thanks to just about every German general that survived the war blaming Hitler for everything to salvage their own reputations.
Hitler made an excellent scapegoat because he wasn't around to defend himself and nobody wanted to defend him. Thus, you had a lot of commanders going out of their way to blame Hitler for everything that went wrong (looking at you, Manstein).
>>29538526
>>29538610
>>29538622
>june 22
>summer solstice
>least winter day of the year
>hitler invaded russia in winter
>>29538721
>Russia
>Having any other seasons other than winter
>>29538728
meme harder
>>29538622
Russia in the Northern hemisphere senpai.
>>29538728
>trying to cover your mistake this hard
>>29538647
US involvement wasn't something Hitler had control of. US had already committed to a Europe first strategy long before Pearl Harbor and German declaration of war.
The man was a genius in the beginning, hence the success of the Blitzkrieg and the beginning of the invasion of the Soviet Union.
Eventually he just started to lose it.
>setting up his headquarters far from the front line
>distrusting his generals
>a lot of narcissism
>pulling his troops just before invading
And many more, all of it just began to build up until his army started losing and Berlin fell.
Reading Toland's biography of him now. Just about to invade Poland. Idk but what he did to Austria and Czechoslovakia were str8 devilish.
defintely no expert, but some have told me that he shouldn't have pushed as far into Russia as he did and the war would be very different if he had just occupied Russia's industrial and oil producing areas. Other people have told me that there was a strategic need for the Germans to push that far and that occupying the industrial zone was untenable. Dunno what to believe.
We were talking in my history class today about why Hitler decided to invade Russia, my professor brought up two factors that may have influenced his decision: Hitler was an admirer of the British for their empire and power and would have preferred to maintain control of mainland Europe and leave the British isles to them, for this reason he never felt the need to press very hard on that front because his goal wasn't really to overthrow England. The second reason he put forward was that there was a belief in Germany at the time that the Soviet Union was a "rotten edifice" and as soon as the Germans pushed into the continent they would handily take Moscow and the whole country would be theirs. What do you guys think about these two points?
>>29538766
>>setting up his headquarters far from the front line
He was the head of state. Why the fuck would he set up headquarters outside of Germany.
>>29538640
>He got increasingly delusional towards the end of the war and disregarded advice from his generals and thought battles would be won through sheer willpower, but this was just his own fantasy
Do you think this was down to all the meds he was on, or was he always going to end up being a bit loopy?
Hitler was a fucking drug addict. Towards the end of the war he made absurdly stupid decisions based on drug-induced derlium that he was somehow pre-destined to win.
>>29538844
Your teacher is a moron and a memester. Hitler did not invade Britain because Germany couldn't do that in their wildest dreams.
>>29538861
That is true, however, in his New Order, Britain would have been a seafairing ally of the Reich.
>>29538492
might be true, but he did nothing wrong ;)
>>29538807
It should also be consider it was a clash of two ideologies, and it was more than claiming territory, lebensraum as they would say, acquiring resources like oil fields, they wanted to utterly destroy the bolsheviks and erase them from the face of the earth, and ended up overextending themselves in this pursuit. There was no strategic reason to push that far. You can see this in how they committed resources to the holocaust right up to the end, again, nothing to do with military strategy but their ideology
>>29538610
It's winter that long in Michigan so...
>>29538859
/thread
Examine Hitler's record prior to being doped up on everything known to man and then after being doped up on everything known to man, and then some.
Textbook case of what happens when you hire a quack to be your personal doctor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Morell
>By April 1945, Hitler was taking 28 different pills a day, along with numerous injections (including many of glucose) every few hours and intravenous injections of methamphetamine almost every day.[citation needed] The personal notes of Morell, describe how he treated Hitler over the years, including notations such as, "injection as always", and, "Eukodal", which is a strong opiate equivalent of Oxycodone
>>29538859
Churchill and Stalin were both raging alcoholics.
>>29538916
That's basically half of all world leaders.
>>29538944
Currently or historically? Because if the latter I'd say upwards of 90%. Napoleon was supposed to be high as fuck on opium during Waterloo.
>>29538844
>What do you guys think about these two points?
Second is true and it's not about Hitler only. There is a diaries of Germans high commanders who thought that defeat of Soviet troops near border was the end of campaight. Second echelon was complete surprise for them.
When people are talking about Hitler being bd stategist, they kinda ignore that he took like whole fucking Europe. Still, he was military. Some people says and I agree with them, that in case of Soviet campaight Hitler was outclassed by Stalin. Hitler was tactician, Stalin was strategist. When Hitler moved collumns, Stalin moved industry, when Hitler moved armies, Stalin moved nations. It was like Starcraft champion against Civilization champion.
>>29538844
Lebensraum
Tell your professor he should read Mein Kampf if he's looking for reasons.
>>29538859
PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE IS A DRUG ADDICT
Didn't you hear about strategic missile command getting high on cocaine and cheating on tests?
Who the fuck cares. Drug use is a celebrated part of our history and culture.
If it wasn't for repeated poisonings of political figures, we might have a world that actually makes sense!
Chemicals.
>>29538844
the logical reasoning to invade russia would be taking control over resources. coal, oil, copper, nickel, lead, mercury, platinum and so on. things you don't stand a chance without in a protracted war against the entire industrial world
>>29538492
well the kikes are still alive so I'll let you decide.
>>29538970
>they kinda ignore that he took like whole fucking Europe
No, they're not. They're not ignoring that because it never happened, that was his generals that did that and he just signed off on their plans.
You can tell the moment Hitler gets heavily involved in the decision process because the entire war turns to shit right around that time.
>>29539001
>getting triggered over the term "drug addict"
There's a big fucking difference between the bowl you smoke and slamming back toxic heavy metals and opiates, you goofy son of a bitch.
>>29538492
reality.
>His tanks were rolling unopposed to Moscow like 90 miles away
No on second thought go get all there oil instead
>On second thought lets go back for moscow.
OR how about
>Absolutily flattingening the RAF
Zomg they hit my city, NOW BOMB LONDON instead of the strategic targets we are currently hitting...
Or how about
>Your best general
>Call him a homo and murder him
>>29539187
>His tanks were rolling unopposed
His tanks were not unopposed and they weren't rolling either, most of them anyway.
>>29538492
A mix of both
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I98P1AxQRUM
If you got the time, listen to this really long video.
Hitler's wildly autistic failure to realize the ideas of Mussolini pretty much werent shared by anyone else in Italy by 1941 is what fucked him over. He expected Mussolini's pissed, bitter, unmotivated troops to gladly fight Tito's incredibly motivated partisans in Yugoslavia, and then was surprised when they did a shitty job. Then, in a mind boggling prioritization failure, he rerouted troops FROM THE EASTERN FRONT to go fight in the Balkans for whatever fucking reason.
>>29539442
not sure if retarded or pretending?
>>29538635
Even more reason to not worship him.
>>29539453
What, as far as I know thats sound. Hitler rerouted troops to the Balkans due to Mussolini's fuck up, and as a result had less troops than he could have on the front line with the USSR
>>29538492
As I understand it, he and Stalin had a "leave me the fuck alone and I'll leave you the fuck alone" thing going on.
Then he decided to invade Russia in the middle of fucking winter.
I'd say that's the work of a pretty awful strategist. I don't pretend to know shit about this sort of thing, and I could have my facts wrong, but fuck me if that's just not a stupid stupid thing to do.
>>29539500
He didn't invade in Winter, this meme must die.
Hitler was stupid for not invading in the final days of winter weather at the start of Spring to give his men plenty of time. He also over extended supply lines.
>>29539500
>invade Russia in the middle of fucking winter.
>>29539529
>is losing war like fuck
>still has delusions of supertanks
>dumping shitloads of budget into maus project while he's getting buttfucked by allies and ruskies alike
yeah, hilter was pretty retarded
>>29539500
you understand it incorrectly.
The Russian winter was only bad because the Germans got encircled at Stalingrad and were massacred in a long siege. The winter just made the siege conditions harsher.
The war wasn't just one year, there was more than one winter
>>29539562
>dumping shitloads of budget into maus project
Maus
If building 2 big tanks cost you shitloads of your military budget, then you have no business trying to fight a war.
>>29539562
>stop development
>allies keep developing their tech
no, by 1944 it was just a matter of time
>>29539022
This
/thread
Hitler literally had to invade Russia
He needed that dank ruskie oil
>>29538492
He postponed operation sealion, the invasion of Britain, because a german bomber 'accidentally' targeted london, and so the British launched a raid in return. Basically went from the British having less than 100 aircraft in all if RAF in fighting condition, to purposely killing civilians because it gets a reaction and allowing RAF to get it's planes back.
The Germans could have probably invaded England if he hadn't ordered raids to be on cities and not airbases. Plus as the war went in he took more and more power from his generals and even banned field marshals from being created again. By the end if war he was ordering g everyone to stand their ground even tho most of the army groups were fucked.
Basically he made a lot of bad choices without thinking of the consequences.
One of Hitler's and his generals' biggest failings regarding Russia was they had extremely poor intelligence on the real size and scope of the Russian army and its industrial capacity. They never accounted for the fact that the Red Army would have vast reserves to fall back on. In addition, their policy of complete extermination of anybody of slavic descent alienated the local populace that may have otherwise assisted them, and discouraged Russian troops from surrendering en masse.
>>29538526
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8raDPASvq0
>>29539673
Sealion was never scheduled.
>>29538526
he invaded in summer and it took along till winter where it was expected to sucess in the invasion in 1-3 months
> not knowing facts
>>29539673
Hitler could not have invaded Britain, he would have needed a major naval expansion, complete subduction of the RAF and Royal Navy, and vastly improved logistics.
>>29538844
>Hitler was an admirer of the British for their empire and power
This is true.
>and would have preferred to maintain control of mainland Europe and leave the British isles to them
He wanted a peace treaty with them (and expected it after taking France) then got mad as shit when they called him a fag, Operation Sea Lion was probably his idea, his generals all thought it was dumb as shit.
>for this reason he never felt the need to press very hard on that front because his goal wasn't really to overthrow England
Which is why The Blitz happened.
>>29538647
Both Hitler and the US viewed themselves as, for practical purposes, at a state of war. IIRC Hitler's declaration of war was less "we're at war with you guys now" and more "well gee that was the last straw"
Thread theme:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyxOXjZHl9U
>>29538855
>Do you think this was down to all the meds he was on, or was he always going to end up being a bit loopy?
I figure it was a combination of the crazy shit his quack doctor put him on (Cocaine Eyedrops, and "mutaflor" to name some), as well as some complexes throughout his life, and him becoming weird once the war turned around, trying to deal with the situation.
>>29538916
Nobody said they weren't.
Stalin was also a paranoid sociopath, who thought everyone was out to get him.
Which, to be fair, was because a lot of people probably WERE out to get him.
>>29539146
>You can tell the moment Hitler gets heavily involved in the decision process because the entire war turns to shit right around that time.
I once saw someone jokingly say Hitler was an Allied plant who threw the war for Germany
>>29539623
>shit guys, we're suffering a fuel shortage and have to rely a lot on horses for cargo transportation
>let's exert ourself a fuckload and take on this giant nation while we're already in a war with others
Oops.
As some have said, some of his very early initiatives were alright, it was after the mainland blitzkrieg into the Battle of Britain that he started losing his edge, and this became more apparent when Operation Barbarossa started encountering snags. By 1944 Hitler should not have been in any capacity to be calling military shots, and Operation Herbstenbel (German offensive plan for the Battle of the Bulge) read like a logistics and strategic nightmare for almost all of the German commanders involved. Rundstedt was set up as a sort fall guy, but even when he and Model cooked up a less ambitious plan than what Hitler had intended they both did not see it succeeding in much if any capacity. Also by that point the bomb plot had come and gone and Hitler straight up did not trust the vast majority of his Wehrmact generals, giving vast preferentiality to the Waffen SS and the coordination between the two began to fray. Hitler could do speeches and politics, but the man had an extremely inflated opinion of his own ability of planning strategic warfare.
>>29539673
>He postponed operation sealion, the invasion of Britain, because a german bomber 'accidentally' targeted london, and so the British launched a raid in return
Operation Sealion was never seriously put on the table because it was seen as absolutely unfeasible.
>>29539500
>As I understand it, he and Stalin had a "leave me the fuck alone and I'll leave you the fuck alone" thing going on.
Eeeh, kind of, and kind of not, they had that sort of deal, but I think it was understood by both that they were gonna go at each other eventually, first taking some chunks of Europe each, Hitler just jumped the gun and went for Russia early.
>>29539526
>>29539577
Reasonable replies to an incorrect statement? Fuck me.
Thank you for the polite corrections, fellas.
>>29538844
44 88 THOSE DIGITS
HEIL HITLER
HEIL HITLER
HEIL HITLER
HEIL HITLER
HEIL HITLER
Btw heres why he invaded russia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v65NZpRZB3A
>>29540364
I'm not trying to be rude, I was taught the same shit in highschool and only learned it was wrong by chance due to reading a couple of books on Stalingrad, I'm just saying it is a common incorrect statement that we need to get out as being false, like the whole George Washington chopping down the cherry tree myth
>>29538844
My WWII history professor suggested he may have done it in hopes that the Britons would see war with Germany as being vain and pointless, and that a greater war on Bolshevism was necessary, trying to play off Churchill's hate for communism
>>29540591
>trying to play off Churchill's hate for communism
It was a commonly reoccurring thought with people on the Allied side during the war "But what if the Communists are the greater enemy after all?" and I guess it kind of made sense that he tried to play on that.
"The enemy of my enemy isn't necessarily my friend" I suppose.
>>29538878
depends
If they could get to moscow they could make the soviets capulate, thus winning that front
>>29540845
>Hitler
>being smart with Russia
That's a pretty big "if"
>>29540977
Nice dubs
But they were not too far from moscow when hitler's autism flared up and made them go to stalingrad
>>29538640
This. Operation Barbarossa might have been a success if this idiot listened to his advisers.
>"The chief characteristic of Hitler's leadership was his over-estimation of the power of the will. To win the war, this will had only to be translated into faith down to the youngest private. Hitler overestimated the importance of technology as well. As a result, he would count on a mere handful of assault-gun detachment or the new Tiger tanks to restore situations where only large bodies of troops could have any prospect of success." -Erich von Manstein
>>29538492
He superbly judged Europe's unwillingness to go to war. This allowed him to seize Austria and Czechoslovakia without a fight, which is good because he would have lost.
This apparent genius for snatching (political) victory from the jaws of (military) defeat put the generals in awe of him, and reduced their ability to contradict him later on.
His strategic alliance with Stalin gave him freedom of action against Poland, further establishing his reputation as a grand master of strategy at the beginning of the war.
But actually directing military operations as such? Fucking pants-on-head retarded. The irony is, he needed to cuck the generals in order to get their support to begin with. But once they were cucked, they could no longer be the voice of reason Germany so desperately needed later in the war.
>>29538891
I feel ya
It snowed a whole fucking inch and it's April
>>29539526
Isn't the problem with Russian Spring that everything melts and turns to mud?
>>29538903
Meth, Karo syrup, and Oxycontin. Sounds like a splendid combo. Like Red Bull and vodka.
First comes the wide awake buzz, along with the realization that you actually do know everything in the world. You tell this to everybody around you, repeatedly.
Then comes the dawning horror when you realize that you can't pass out and you have to live through every second of what promises to be a near-death hangover.
At this point you realize you're not alone. Italy rolls over, snoring and farting, and you spot the horrendous herpes sore that must have been covered by makeup last night.
At this point your alarm goes off and you remember that today is Operation Citadel.
>>29538492
please don't make threads like these in /k/, it just brings the slavaboos out of the woodwork
>>29541404
>Not wanting to fight the slavaboos in /k/
What are you, a faggot?
>>29541404
>>29541553
Slavaboos, wehraboos, they're both annoying.
The StG44 had to be made in secret and then they had to trick Hitler into using it.
The Me262 was delayed a year because Hitler wanted it to be a dive bomber too.
Hitler taking direct command of the Western Front.
Nazi chain of command was purposely Byzantine. To prevent anyone from acting independently or gaining power.
>>29540065
>oops
>implying another axis power didnt attack a different superpower for oil and steel
>>29539477
he needed to secure his southern flanks desu
also intervention allowed Italy to give 10 division to him,and the italian troops did well enough in the eastern front
>>29541887
I've read and heard from (refrain from judgment) my professor that they absolutely did not.
>>29539677
>Conquer, *then* genocide. It's like having to finish your dinner before eating dessert.
>>29538785
?
austria willingly joined
and czechoslovakia was not a real country
Genius.
The Invasion of the Soviet Union was a pre-emptive attack against an emerging super-power with a truly evil social system, one that nearly worked. If he just would have continued to pressure Moscow it surely would have fallen in the first months, instead he made the strategic but unintuitive decision to swing south and wipe out an army on the way towards the industrial heartland and oil fields of southern Soviet Union.
>>29542364
>willingly
Debatable.
>>29538642
Would have sped up the German defeat, not stopped the Allied landings. You think those tanks are gonna have free reign to counter attack under thousands of Allied aircraft?
You think every single warship isn't gonna be shelling the shit out of them as soon as they come within range of the coast?
>>29540738
but churchill was owned by the jews
FDR was a commie
France was filled with communists
So ofc, Soviets were the allies and there was no hope for peace with the nationalists
The fantasy of WW2 being a "good war" is one of those big lies Hitler talked about
>>29542384
I don't get this line of reasoning, what makes us think the Soviets would have quit after Moscow's loss, especially with as fanatical of a leader as Stalin. There was a lot more eastern land to take, even without including Siberia.
>>29542444
I think it's a reasonable theory that the entire Soviet edifice would have collapsed had the Soviet government and Stalin been evicted from Moscow. And once Moscow and surrounding areas was captured that's a lot of the industrial capacity right there; at minimum I don't see the Soviets completely recovering and defeating Germany.
Literally nothing had gone right for the Soviets from the beginning until resistance started stiffening in October. And then winter and Zukhov had brought in reinforcements. But before that there were serious discussions about whether to evacuate Moscow. I think Stalin correctly calculated that leaving would have been the end of the road.
>>29542526
Magnitogorsk would have taken over wartime production, its further east and was built for manufacturing
>>29542562
I just don't see the war turning out anywhere near how it did even if somehow the Soviets kept it all together. They were in legitimate shambles but of course it's a common flaw to underestimate the Soviet Union
>>29539673
British produced more aircraft than Germany and always had a large fighter reserve in the north out of reach of German bombers. They lost less fighters and pilots than the Germans.
Operation sealion would have never ever succeeded once the Royal Navy turns up and BTFOs everyone. The germans planend to cross the channel using fucking riverboats as troop transports lol
>>29538761
>>29539955
The minutes of the Wannsea conference tell another story. Until Hitler's declaration of war, Nazi commanders were waiting to see how we'd react.
Then, they blamed the Jews.
>>29539590
In the last month of the war, they were still lobbing V2s at London while the Heer was screaming for more medium tanks.
>>29543086
>believing jew propaganda
>>29539711
This. Also he literally invaded as early as possible. People tend to forget that half of Russia is just mud in the spring and it takes months for that stuff to solidify enough to armor over.
>>29542444
The endgame would have been Stalin being deposed, and the successors suing for peace.
Also, don't forget that Moscow was perhaps the single most important rail hub in the country. Taking that seriously impacts the ability of all of those newly-relocated factories to get anything done.
The battle of the Atlantic was more or less lost in 1944. Why wasn't the order given to withdraw the U-boats from the Atlantic and redeploy them into the Channel and around the Coast of Europe in general.
>>29543353
>redeploy them into the Channel
Are you retarded?
>around the Coast of Europe in general.
Oh I see.
>>29543482
The Kriegsmarine had lost it's relevance, it was being stripped of manpower. They might as well have did what the Kaiser navy couldn't stomach and went all in to occupy the supply lines.
>>29538492
>Meme or Reality?
Reality. Germany's defeat at Stalingrad was a HUGE fuck up that wouldn't have happened if Hitler had listened to his generals.
>>29538619
>Well, he took on the British Empire, America and the Soviet Union all at the same time and got wrecked. Had he actually somehow managed to make the Soviet Union capitulate he might have stood a chance.
lolnope. He would've had the greatest insurgency the world has ever seen.
Fun fact: the Soviets only managed to completely control the country after the war- before the war there was like yearly rebellions in the periphery at least.
>>29542526
>I think it's a reasonable theory that the entire Soviet edifice would have collapsed had the Soviet government and Stalin been evicted from Moscow. And once Moscow and surrounding areas was captured that's a lot of the industrial capacity right there; at minimum I don't see the Soviets completely recovering and defeating Germany.
Its only reasonable once you've snorted enough meth to pay for Heisenberg's crippled son's college fund. The Soviets had transported most of its industry in the heartland to the Urals by 1941 so it wouldn't matter if the Nazis captured Moscow anyhow. At best they would've gotten an earlier Stalingrad whilst taking the city and that would've sapped the Wehrmacht of strength far sooner.
>But before that there were serious discussions about whether to evacuate Moscow. I think Stalin correctly calculated that leaving would have been the end of the road.
You pulled this out of your ass right? Before Kursk nobody has ever defeated the Wehrmacht on the open field- choking them in the cities was the only sure way to stop them then.
>>29542526
the entire Tsarist edifice would have collapsed had the Russian government been evicted from Moscow in 1812. Oh wait, it didn't. So additionally to his numerous fuck ups, Hitler also relied on classical rules of warfare aiming at capturing the enemy's capital.
>>29543283
>The endgame would have been Stalin being deposed, and the successors suing for peace.
The Soviet elites and more importantly the populace knew they wouldn't be allowed to even sue for peace- it would be a ceasefire at best then when the Nazis recuperated the slaughter would begin anew. Their only choice is to fight.
>Also, don't forget that Moscow was perhaps the single most important rail hub in the country. Taking that seriously impacts the ability of all of those newly-relocated factories to get anything done.
Trains are not the only way of transporting stuff around. There are a couple huge rivers for instance going to the mountains from several directions and that would easily pick up the slack after a few months of hiccups with expanding the riverine transport capabilty(which is quite fast as compared to railways since boats are much faster and quicker to build).
They didn't do so in the first place because rails are already in place and there is no need when its intact.
>>29543868
As an aside this actually happened.
http://karbuz.blogspot.com/2006/10/oil-logistics-lesson-from-wwii-3.html
>Another problem inseparably tied to fuel production was its transportation. By the summer of 1942 Germans had blocked the main railways through which oil and its derivative products were transported. Thus, alternate means of transport had to be found via the Caspian and Volga water way. When the Germans also succeeding in blocking this route, transportation was routed through Central Asia.
>Then the naval experts of the Baku oil-tanker fleet performed an incredible feat. For the first time in the world's history, they began towing a floating railway of oil tankers (wagons) from Baku to Krasnovodsk (Turkmenistan) as well as several thousands tons of oil reservoirs from Makhachkala (Dagestan) to Krasnovodsk.
>The fleets were extremely overloaded. For example, the amount of oil transport in July 1941 exceeded 10 million barrels of crude oil and fuel. This amount was beyond the technical capabilities of the tanker fleet in Baku. But the demands from Moscow did not take into account the physical limitations. It was then that Baku naval experts hit upon the idea of attaching whole tanks and cisterns to each other by steel ropes and lowering them into the sea by cranes and towing them by steam tugs. This had never been done before in any place in the world and it enabled them to tow up to 35 cisterns together or 3 huge oil tanks (5 ton capacity) with a single tugboat.
>>29539022
Or he could take it from Afrika and Middle East, which Britain failed to protect. And don't have all this loistical nightmare on Russian territory. Anyway, Russian sell all this without any problems. He had his reasons for Russian campaight in his book and it's nothing about resources. It was ideology-driven campainght and that's why it failed.
>>29541887
They have been absolutely miserable, and they have been replaced with even worse equipped romanian troops that at least weren't cowards and haven't fled the fight.
>>29539890
>Hitler at the channel, shouting at the Brits to accept a peace treaty
>"Get fucked you great big bumder"
>Adi's face when
>>29543825
The tzarist government was not the Soviet government and 24 years separated them at the war's outset. The commies loved them some centralization and all of the supply hubs ran through Moscow.
Losing Moscow would have been a death blow but Hitler, in all of his glorious stupidity, wanted to avoid the mistakes that Napoleon had made and so he balked when his troops could see the Kremlin. He ignored the situation as it stood and referred only to a history that had been unalterably changed.
>>29544386
>all of the supply hubs ran through Moscow.
If by all you mean only the railways right?
As long as the Volga River is in play the Soviet logistical train would still work.
>Losing Moscow would have been a death blow but Hitler, in all of his glorious stupidity, wanted to avoid the mistakes that Napoleon had made and so he balked when his troops could see the Kremlin. He ignored the situation as it stood and referred only to a history that had been unalterably changed.
Or he got smarter/snorted some really high quality meth and decided taking the major petrochemicals producer for his oil-starved Wehrmacht was a much better idea afterall.
Apart from the rails what would he get in Moscow anyways?
>>29544071
>Or he could take it from Afrika and Middle East
Germany had a higher chance of defeating USSR and its 1000+ divisions than taking the Middle East. You kind of need a navy to project power overseas.
>And don't have all this loistical nightmare on Russian territory.
Are you retarded? You think trying to supply an invasion of the Middle East from Germany would be easier than doing the same in Russia?
>Anyway, Russian sell all this without any problems.
USSR was willing to sell, but Germany could not pay. In fact, Germany had been way behind the payments of the stuff they had bought since the MR pact.
>>29538492
If you read Guderian and investigate what happened as well as other documents found after the war you will know its not a meme at all.
He was not exactly as retarded as the meme but most of Germany's successes were thanks to proper generals advising him and most terrible mistakes that cost them the war were his decision against his (good) generals' advice. Just think... opening up a third front... allowing the English to escape at Dunkirk... diverting attention away from navy... He even wanted to make the exact same mistake as in WW1 by attacking through the northwestern plains instead of through the Ardennes.
Sure, some generals were shit in their own right... but if Hitler had meddled less (dictate goals, not methods) the Nazis could have won.
>>29538728
Russia cant be invaded in spring... since the thawing ice and melting snow causes the entire run-up to become one big mudhole that eats tanks and supply vehicles and tires out troops if they don't know how to navigate the mud.
>>29539711
>where it was expected to sucess in the invasion in 1-3 months
Which was in itself an incredibly stupid prediction.
Hitler lived to be an old man
>>29544488
>As long as the Volga River is in play the Soviet logistical train would still work.
If Moscow falls, it becomes impossible to supply Leningrad. If Moscow falls, it becomes impossible to bring in equipment produced from the Ural factories any farther than the two east/west railways allow. All logistics then hinge on oil coming north up the Volga, and equipment going south. The river then has to be defended from at the very least the northmost rail head down to the Caspian, and any breakthrough by the Germans means a slaughter when the Soviet defenders are pushed into the river. In addition, river instead of rail supplying the bulk of your forces badly slows down the speed at which those supplies travel.
>>29538492
GOAT at everything tbqh w/ u fampai.
>>29545504
Nah.
>>29542364
If you have to Google the names Hacha, Schuschnigg, or Seyss-Inquart youre a fucking retard and have no business being in this thread.
>>29545530
Oh really?
>>29545504
Space Nazi Hitler clone pls go.
Your taste in comedians is shit.
Lazy austrians, always getting their big brother in trouble.
>>29538785
>Be Czechoslovakia
>Have huge army
>Fortifications out the wazoo and excellent landscape for defence
>Capitulate to Germany because uncle Addy sent a sternly-worded letter
Had it coming desu
>>29545814
Not saying they didn't just saying the way Hitler did it was pretty devilish.
>>29545530
>grasping at straws: the post
Here's a map of the Volga River System:
>it becomes impossible to supply Leningrad.
It was almost impossible to supply via direct railways anyway. Stuff went through a tiny strip of area near and on Lake Ladoga when the encirclement was at its most complete.
>t becomes impossible to bring in equipment produced from the Ural factories any farther than the two east/west railways allow
Are you high? The front is at Moscow by then. No point in tossing stuff further east
Also the rivers going to the Urals connecting it to the southern oil producing Caucasus are hundreds/thousands of miles away from Moscow.
>The river then has to be defended from at the very least the northmost rail head down to the Caspian
No it doesn't. There's only like 2 rails coming out of Moscow to the east that crosses the Volga. Also attack with what forces? the Wehrmacht was running on fumes and freezing their balls off at the gates already- consolidating the city would've exhausted it entirely.
>any breakthrough by the Germans means a slaughter when the Soviet defenders are pushed into the river.
Again, with what forces? An entire front of Siberians would have been massed in the early December, fresh and resupplied for an offensive to retake the city in your scenario.
>river instead of rail supplying the bulk of your forces badly slows down the speed at which those supplies travel.
agreed, but water transport generally has much higher tonnages- a force on the defence close to its supply tail does not need quick and timely resupplies; it can make do with bigger ones that would last longer.
Time for dank memes!
>>29543825
It's not Hitler who thinks the USSR would've collapsed upon the capture of Moscow. It's the geniuses on /k/ who repeat that meme. Barbarossa's main goal was to destroy the Red Army.
>>29543786
>Before Kursk nobody has ever defeated the Wehrmacht on the open field- choking them in the cities was the only sure way to stop them then.
Are you retarded? Wait, why am I even asking, of course you are.
>>29545784
Excuse me. Defense of the river is only a concern at Stalingrad and north of Moscow. However, the logistics implications are still there (below).
>>29545849
>It was almost impossible to supply via direct railways anyway. Stuff went through a tiny strip of area near and on Lake Ladoga when the encirclement was at its most complete.
The issue is that if Moscow falls in late December '41 or early '42, it becomes much more difficult to move the newly formed reserve armies into place to keep Germany from linking up to Finland. If they can't prevent that, then there's no way to move supplies to Leningrad across the lake. Moscow's loss cuts the Moscow-Leningrad line, which is the only heavy-gauge line to Leningrad. The rest are secondary and tertiary lines that can't handle anywhere near the traffic.
>The front is at Moscow by then. No point in tossing stuff further east
Except that it then becomes much harder to ship it anywhere except Moscow, Stalingrad, or the Don junction because the major rail north/south lines are cut.
>Also attack with what forces?
The entire scenario is hypothetical. Is the USSR's ability to supply its military IF Germany can take and hold Moscow before the thaw in 1942 enough to still allow victory or not? I am aware that had they managed it (because as close as they came, actually taking the city was highly unlikey anyways), it was likely to be a pyrrhic and short-lived victory.
>Again, with what forces? An entire front of Siberians would have been massed in the early December, fresh and resupplied for an offensive to retake the city in your scenario.
See above.
>water transport generally has much higher tonnages
Open sea transport has much higher tonnages. Not river barges. Trains can haul several kilometers worth of cars given the proper infrastructure. As for supply, only the troops at Moscow and Stalingrad are easily supplied by river. Anywhere in between those cities, or north of Tver, must be supplied over land.
>>29546629
This. German thinking was no different than WWI for endgame. Destroy their military, possibly take Moscow, and enjoy Brest-Litovsk 2 Electric Boogaloo.
>>29542390
On the day of the Ancusluss, the Austrian literally marched into Germany as the Wehrmacht marched into Austria. Sure, Austrian Nazis shooting Dollfuss wasn't very nice, but Austrians were more then happy to join Grossdeutschland when they realized the world was shit and the only country that seemed to be weathering it was Germany.
The Austrian is not a victim to the Nazis. hey were their first collaborators. Even the Germans themselves have better claim to being the Nazis first victims.
>>29547531
>their first collaborators
The state, sure, but there were resistance movements in Austria too.
>>29538492
>Wanted to invade France immediately after invading Poland with no time to get any logistical support to the area
>>29538492
I think this is reality toward the end of the war only because of his being doped improperly by the doctors. I honestly believe if Hitler had been properly medicated he wouldn't have even thought about turning on Russia until after WWII allowing the Axis powers a much better fighting chance until the inevitable results of the Manhattan project began dropping from American planes. If you don't know anything about his sorry excuse for a doctor or the medicines that fellow had him on I encourage you to do research.
>>29538642
The locally-stationed 21st Panzer Division did commit to a local counterattack and some of its elements went all the way to the sea.
They got promptly BTFO by allied air superiority and naval gunfire.
Hell, Rommel himself wasn't all that happy about the entire plan to coutnerattack with armor exactly because he feared that.
>>29547259
>The issue is that if Moscow falls in late December '41 or early '42, it becomes much more difficult to move the newly formed reserve armies into place to keep Germany from linking up to Finland. If they can't prevent that, then there's no way to move supplies to Leningrad across the lake. Moscow's loss cuts the Moscow-Leningrad line, which is the only heavy-gauge line to Leningrad. The rest are secondary and tertiary lines that can't handle anywhere near the traffic.
Why is keeping Leningrad supplied even part of the calculus then? The enemy is at Moscow itself, they have much bigger fish to fry right at their faces. Those reserves will do nothing but retake Moscow before anything can be done for the North and South directions.
>Except that it then becomes much harder to ship it anywhere except Moscow, Stalingrad, or the Don junction because the major rail north/south lines are cut.
Again they have the Volga River for that.
>Is the USSR's ability to supply its military IF Germany can take and hold Moscow before the thaw in 1942 enough to still allow victory or not?
Again they wouldn't have pushed forward without recapturing Moscow first so this point is moot.
>Open sea transport has much higher tonnages.
your bog standard river barge can easily ship thousands of tons and do it cheaply- heck that's why they are used mostly for hauling garbage.
>Anywhere in between those cities, or north of Tver, must be supplied over land.
Have you looked at the map above? practically every railway crosses a tributary or the Volga itself.
>>29539187
>Absolutily flattingening the RAF
And yet that RAF kept getting bigger throughout the entire battle, even before the switch to bombing cities - all while the Luftwaffe was bleeding pilots faster than it could replace them.
>>29548694
>Why is keeping Leningrad supplied even part of the calculus then? Those reserves will do nothing but retake Moscow before anything can be done for the North and South directions.
Keeping Leningrad ties up a very large chunk of Army Group North, which spent until January 1944 blockading the city. If Leningrad falls then Army Group North can continue pushing east, threatening the Lend-Lease supply lines from Murmansk and Archangelsk. And in reality, the defense of Moscow was being fought as far south as Tula and as far north as Klin, and some of those reserve troops were sent farther north to reinforce the troops fighting to relieve Leningrad.
>Again they have the Volga River for that.
Please review the map you posted >>29545849
There is a huge section of frontage along the Don river, which the Volga is in the opposite direction of. There is also, as I mentioned earlier, the frontage between Tver and Leningrad. The Volga is not going to magically get those supplies to places that it does not flow, and for that you need the railroads.
>your bog standard river barge can easily ship thousands of tons
Obviously not, given the disparity in how the USSR moved freight prewar. 85% of Russian prewar freight was moved by train, and a mere 7% moved by river. This also doesn't take into account that while (as an example) a 100ftx30ft barge can safely load a thousand tons of equipment, that's only useful if you can fit a thousand tons of equipment on it in the first place. Say you're transporting T-34s to the front. A T-34 is 21 ft x 10 ft and weighs 26.5 tonnes. You'll fit only fit 15 T-34s at most on the barge despite them only weighing a combined 400 tonnes. The Soviet heavy gauge trains can fit 16 on 8 flatcars alone, and some of these trains were kilometers in length.
>Have you looked at the map above? practically every railway crosses a tributary or the Volga itself.
Have you? The Volga is navigable for almost all of its length, but the tributaries are not.
>>29538492
Invaded Russia while still at war with Britain.. Kek
Shit was over as soon as soon as that decision was made.
Should have defeated Britain/US first, obtained oil from North Africa, and built his army up for a couple of years before fucking with Russia.
There is no scenario where he ever could have beaten Russia/Britain/US at the same fucking time. Unless he had gotten the bomb
>>29538647
I wouldn't be so sure of that. His pussyfooting about with armored offensives in the West led to more British getting away than should have happened. And then he refused to commit to a single thrust to Moscow, and instead split his troops.
Not to mention the fact that he started a two front war.
>>29539187
>His tanks were rolling unopposed to Moscow like 90 miles away
And then got hit by the winter counteroffensive and by the time summer rolled around agian, it was 90 miles and over 3 million pissed-off Russians that had spent nearly six months digging in in depth. The Red Army was expecting a renewed push for Moscow and had everything in place to turn it into a horrific meatgrinder that would have made the failure of Zitadelle look positively benign. So the Wehrmacht attaked in the one place they actually had at least a chance to get shit done without getting bled white.
>>29546629
The capture of Moscow destroys Russia because of the rail network. Moscow in 1812 had no real strategic significance. Moscow in the 1940s was the most important city in Russia.
>>29549461
>His pussyfooting about with armored offensives in the West led to more British getting away than should have happened.
Are you talking about that one time when Rundstedt ordered a panzer group to halt as it would have been rather retarded to mount an attack against a force of 300k supported by aircraft and cruiser guns in an area with awful tank terrains while your tanks are stretched for miles and 50% of the Pz Group wasn't able to keep up with the spearhead?
>>29550042
The halt on the 25th of May. And when the enemy is as disorganized as it was, the shock of armor provides an outweighted advantage.
>>29550135
>the shock of armor provides an outweighted advantage.
So one advantage to set off like 10 disadvantages. At a time when the primary objective was already within sight without throwing the dice. I'd say Rundstedt made the right decision.
>>29550011
The Soviets can lose everything east of the Urals and will still win the war in the long run.
>>29550202
Nope. You take Moscow, you remove their ability to supply anything. Germany wins the endgame there.
>>29550183
Not all advantages and disadvantages are equal. The advancing echelons should have continued their attack. While it wouldn't have been the ideal attack, the defenses would be in a worse state as well, and likely would have folded as more and more reinforcements could be brought up.
>>29538855
Syphilis is a degenerative brain disease.
Plus he was hopped up on tons of drugs for the duration of the war.
I bet he killed himself partly because his doctor left the fuhrer-bunker a week before Mousillini was shot, and he was having serious withdrawal.
>>29538492
>Meme or Reality?
If the US woulda stayed on this side of the water, Hitler quite likely would of conquered europe and then after about a decade of war with russia, agreed to a peace pact. However, he was a fool to think US would not have gotten involved due to the fact that if US didn't help, Hitler had all the propaganda he would of needed to spark conquered yuro's to rally with him against the US, on top of being an already adept rally-speaker.
Hitler being a cuckold is more accurate
>>29553250
Nope. The turning point of the war was in 1941 with the battle of Salingrad. In no conceivable circumstance could Germany have won that involved war with Russia or the USA.
If the US never intervened, Western Europe would have been invaded by the USSR. IT probably would have collapsed by 1993, but then Europe would be weak and probably overrrun by Africans and Muslims by now.
Europe would have been genocided, butchered by the soviets, enslaved with a socialist basketcase economic rule then ruined even more when these countries imported 3rd worlders.
>>29538492
Reality; Operation Barbarossa and Operation Citadel.
>>29538492
He was as good of a military commander as most other world leaders (not very good)
His problem, in the military as well as all other aspects of governance, was being a distrustful micromanager
>>29538844
Hitler decided to invade Russia for reasons any other empire would: resources. Part of the reason why Stalingrad was one of the definitive battles along the Eastern Front was because of its geographical position to the oil-rich Caucasus region; anything else is memester bullshit.
>>29538492
He was a moron that got into his generals way
>>29554042
Adolf Hitler more like Adolf Cuckler
>>29549417
Fucking this
>>29554127
And that the people he did trust tended to me idiots.
>Ahhh, Turkey. The sick man of Europe. Lets invade it."
>"Ahhh, Italy. The soft underbelly of Europe. Lets invade it."
>>29549412
>If Leningrad falls then Army Group North can continue pushing east,
push east during winter, while exhausted all the way?
>The Volga is not going to magically get those supplies to places that it does not flow, and for that you need the railroads.
They have tugboats. Those can push barges upstream or they can even have people pushing poles on the riverbed.
>Obviously not, given the disparity in how the USSR moved freight prewar. 85% of Russian prewar freight was moved by train, and a mere 7% moved by river.
Prewar conditions that made it such are relevant in wartime how? Take out those railways and the Soviets would be forced to rely on riverine transport more, naturally as its their only recourse.
>>29549412
>This also doesn't take into account that while (as an example) a 100ftx30ft barge can safely load a thousand tons of equipment, that's only useful if you can fit a thousand tons of equipment on it in the first place.
With a huge amount of manpower they have and nearby forestry you can shit out tens of such wooden barges by the day. Grab some extra truck engines and you can make hundreds of tugboats per day. You could be looking at kilometers long "trains" of tugboats and barges by the end of the week.
>Have you? The Volga is navigable for almost all of its length, but the tributaries are not.
Stalin had like a hundred directives to expand the tributaries and canals in the 1930s...
>>29550511
>Nope. You take Moscow, you remove their ability to supply anything. Germany wins the endgame there.
>muh rails
Is this a new meme after the general winter one?
>>29554851
>says it's a meme
>replies with a meme
Rail is how you transport shit in Russia. You never have a response other than "nuh-uh".
>>29555008
>Rail is how you transport shit in Russia. You never have a response other than "nuh-uh".
Rail is the cheapest and most efficient way of transporting shit there- total mobilization means words like expense and efficiency take the backseat when you need expediency the most, ie enemies at your face.
>>29555100
I don't think you know the slightest thing about what you're talking about. In order to explain this point further, let me just go on to explain a single vignette.
What happens to the T-34? They are not driven all the way from the Urals, they are instead put on railcars heading west. Once they reach their destination, a railyard much smaller than that of Moscow, and able to accept much less supply throughput. Further, they cannot continue on to destinations past Moscow without taking a massive detour on lines already filled to the maximum before Moscow was taken. You can't simply route all the trains to those locations, they won't all fit on the lines. You lose a massive amount of supply throughput because of it. Further, the ability to actuall
They are then removed from their cars, and from their drive to the battlefield. This is important to remember, because the T-34 had a system of planned obsolescence. Why build a tank with parts which were going to last longer than the tank would in combat? This results in the following quote: "According to a report by the Scientific Institute for Armored Equipment (NIBT) to Ya. N. Fedorenko, the chief of the Red Army’s Auto-Armored Directorate, the average distance a T-34 traveled before requiring overhaul (capital repairs) did not exceed 200 kilometers." So once the tanks are removed from their rail cars, they now have a 200 km radius which they could drive. Do note that this isn't a 200 km range. You're not driving in a straight line, especially when conducting combat operations. And then we have to remember we're driving through fucking Russia. You know, the land which actively tries to prevent you from crossing it. Lots of rivers, and the roads that do exist are liable to turn to mud.
Cont.
>>29555226
And then you need to deliver all the supplies that the T-34 needs in order to function- fuel, spare parts, ammunition. This all goes through those greatly lessened supply lines and overland through inhospitable Russia. If you thought it was bad for the tanks, it is worse for the trucks. The mud hits them the hardest. Snow doesn't help matters. It is only in the summer months when the roads are merely dirt when the terrain is somewhat conducive to being driven upon. Oh, and don't forget, every bit of land your trucks have to cover is more fuel needing to sustain just those trucks and not the tanks. More food needing to be delivered to their drivers.
So no, this isn't a matter of SUPERIOR RUSSIAN WILLPOWER CAN OVERCOME. This is a matter of supply impossibilities. And it all stems from rail. You take Moscow, you deny Russia its most major rail center. You deny them rail, they lose the war. Is this clear to you now?
>>29555226
>>29555235
>Again they wouldn't have pushed forward without recapturing Moscow first so this point is moot.
>So no, this isn't a matter of SUPERIOR RUSSIAN WILLPOWER CAN OVERCOME. This is a matter of supply impossibilities. And it all stems from rail. You take Moscow, you deny Russia its most major rail center. You deny them rail, they lose the war. Is this clear to you now?
What part of they have a fucking front worth of reserves all freshened up just massing east of Moscow whilst the Wehrmacht chokes on the city do you not understand? Those bastards will not do anything but retake the city.
And in the unlikely event they last until the thaw the riverine transports come back into life- allowing the buildup of greater man and material for yet another go at the city until they retake it. Its gonna be Stalingrad the prequel...
>>29538492
meme, stormfag don't want to believe wehrmacht can could be defeated by slavs.
>>29555226
>>29555235
not him but interdasting. thanks.
>>29555286
>gets shut down on how important rail is
>immediately backpedals looking for other points
Okay. Do you expect these boats to be able to put through the same amount of supplies that rail does? Or as quickly? Do you think the Russians will be able to amass, supply, and then keep them supplied during combat operations without the rail hub of Moscow? This isn't something you can just handwave. Do you understand how slow the riverine transportation really was? And I'm sure they'll be able to supply them all through the mighty Volga! Wait, what? The aerodromes in Moscow let German aviation have an even easier time hitting them?
No, anon. Riverine transportation was being done in addition to all the rail, and the Soviets still found themselves in supply predicaments numerous times. It is a supplement, not a replacement. It does not solve your problems.
>>29555404
>>29545784
Again. you seem to think all rails have to come from Moscow to transfer stuff. there are rails criscrossing the east without going through Moscow first- more if you include the parts where they cross the river.
>>29555404
>immediately backpedals looking for other points
more like I have been putting that point forward a couple posts ago and yet you constantly focus on your own strawman.
>Okay. Do you expect these boats to be able to put through the same amount of supplies that rail does? Or as quickly? Do you think the Russians will be able to amass, supply, and then keep them supplied during combat operations without the rail hub of Moscow? This isn't something you can just handwave. Do you understand how slow the riverine transportation really was? And I'm sure they'll be able to supply them all through the mighty Volga! Wait, what?
Again they wouldn't have pushed forward without recapturing Moscow first so this point is moot.
>>29555451
Of course not all go through Moscow. But the thing is- most do.
And then you spend the rest of the post trying to ignore what was stated. Jesus fuck, man, address my arguments.
>>29538903
>>29541356
Didn't he also have cocaine eye drops?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM7pJGusyJg
>>29557142
Yes.
>>29538903
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Morell
Himmler should have arranged for this fucker to have a car accident or 12.
>>29554042
>not pictured 20 million dead russians
You can't argue the Soviets were any better than a meat grinder.
>>29555451
Those rail systems are single tracked secondary lines, which cannot handle anywhere near the throughput of the main lines in and out of Moscow. The infrastructure supporting those lines (coaling and water stations, turntables, sidings, bridges, marshaling yards, etc.) are all smaller and fewer and far between. Let me put this in perspective for you. To supply Army Group North alone, 1638 supply trains carried 821,000 tons to the front between july 20 and october 21. This is only for the army group, it does not include the trains supplying the luftwaffe, the replacement troop trains, or the trains supplying the logistics men responsible for the railroad. The USSR has a lot more men to supply than army group north, spread out over a much larger area, with less rail infrastructure to support them. Moscow is the primary hub for most of that infrastructure, and rivers do not reach many of those places that need supplies. So how do you supply the troops around Moscow, Leningrad, and keep the Lend-Lease lifeline open without the Moscow hub?
>>29541553
>What are you, a faggot?
>>29557717
>and keep the Lend-Lease lifeline
Admittedly, they've still got a bunch of it coming from Siberia. Their stuff from Murmansk? Probably useless.
