Battle Rifles aren't obsolete, we just call them "designated marksman rifles" now.
Yes, the assault rifle concept is proven and correct. But every squad still needs at least one guy with a BR/DMR.
>>29501976
DMR =/= Battle Rifle
>>29501976
great thread
>>29501981
They can be, but they aren't necessarily so.
>>29501981
Why?
>>29501997
What is the difference between BR and DMR? Hardware, not doctrine.
>>29501976
Are you the guy who made the thread saying BRs are better than ARs?
I agree that every squad should have a 7.62x51 option available to them. But having one person who ammunition is not compatible with everyone else can cause problems.
So people still play Halo eh?
>>29502026
No that wasn't me.
Specialized weapons have important roles. Grenadiers ammo is incompatible with his buddies rifles. Still useful. Everything has tradeoffs.
>>29502026
Why? Only that person has to deal with x51. Not like some dumbass is going to try to load x51 in there m4 mags.
The positives of having a 600m+ rifle outweigh the logistic issues.
>>29502024
totally
Alternatively you can have a m16a4 20" barrel and some long range match loadings in 5.56 or .223 that can still be used by your buddies if they need ammo.
>>29502138
Makes sense... What is the effective range for this?
>>29502157
around 600,000mm
Probably right at 600m
Depends on the terrain deployed of course but if were talking about a general jack of all trades squad of 5 or more id rather have 2 dmrs on hand.
This would also solve the problem of ammo compatibility if you have 2 7.62x51 users per squad. Theyd be able to take care of each other for ammo and repairs to their rifles.The rest can use 5.56
it would be pretty balanced
The US mil even issue match 7.62x51 to DMs? Because without it, I can't see them hitting anything past 500m unless they're top-tier, best-in-class operators.
There's no need. The purpose of an infantry squad is to maneuver and close. Tactics that are better facilitated by assault rifles.
The best practices of using a DM haven't been at the squad level. It's been at the platoon and company level, in a detached manner, usually providing inner facing overwatch, or outward facing area denial for operational security.
Small units do definitely benefit from increased range, but that's generally a function of marksmanship rather than equipment. It's very rare that a squad rolls out with hard target interdiction or assaulting a hardened position in mind while only equipped with m4s. The killing gets done with M2s and mk19s and saws and the radio. So the caliber debate is largely irrelevant.
The spr program was an attempt to make the best of several worlds and has largely been dropped by people that have a choice. Past 400 they reach for a .308. 400 and in an M4 works fine. Usually one guy will rock an acog or a 1-x on a "recce" style rifle.
>>29502577
Thank u sir
>>29501976
I would rather push for everyone in a US army gun team to use BR's/DMR's.
A weapons squad already has 2 gun teams - so something like this:
1 7.62 DMR per team - depending on unit DM is sometimes team lead
1 M240 carried by gunner
2-3 7.62 BR carbines carried by AG/AB
DM being gun team lead is unit dependent - a DM with a good optic can help walk the gun in, but some units would rather have the odd man out be the DM so they can be effectively engaging.
>>29502024
Used to be a squad DM. My favorite round was 5.56.
>>29502958
This is really backwards.
What the fuck is a gun team?
>>29502995
I'm interested. Could you explain why?
>>29502328
You can pit rounds accurately on a target a good ways out even with the 240 ammo thry give you, you just aren't guaranteed a first-shot hit.
>>29503018
Because a souped-up 5.56 rifle for a DMR is a better idea. Extends the range of your weapon by a bit, especially with match grade, and it's
>compatible
>mag compatible
>part compatible
>lighter
For anything you can't handle with that, hose it with an M249 or 240 until something explosive can be dropped on it.
>>29503047
M240 is only carried weapons squad in a platoon, or am I wrong
>>29503096
I'm Army, and I've seen it done a few ways. Generally, yeah.
>>29502998
I think he means a Fire Team
At ranges exceeding 5.56 I actually think a bolt action 7.62 would be best. (something with a detachable high cap mag would be best).
My reasoning is that at 600m those quick follow up shots up can do with a semi auto arent going to be very accurate.
This has draw backs as well, though.
>>29504639
*follow up shots u can do with a semi
>>29502012
Because this isn't call of duty and caliber doesn't equal accuracy
>>29503047
Only works with match-grade ammo, and with military logistics it's best to keep that sort of thing limited to snowflake rifles shooting snowflake calibers like .338.
Otherwise you'd get POGs carrying around rifles they'll never fire with magazines loaded with match 5.56, while the DM on a 72-hour combat patrol is stuck using M855 like the rest of his squaddies.
I know it's off topic and maybe I'm unaware because I was a POG.
But when I was in boot camp we were supposed to be able to hit man sized targets up to 500 or 600 yards accurately with our M16A4s so what's up with people complaining about the 5.56 not being powerful enough to reach out to man sized targets past 300 yards?
Where the Marines complaining about that or the Army? Could it be because the Army used an M4 and the Marines have the 20 inch barreled version without wobbly stock?
>>29501986
>knot behind the neck
Well, at least he'll have time to jack off before he passes out.
>>29504732
I wouldn't say it ONLY works with match grade. It's a practice that's been in effect off and on for some time
Why haven't we switched to bullpup rifles yet?
Only because every one is used to M-4/m-16 platforms?
Noone has produced a quality bullpup yet?
>>29506250
its just a unecessary concept. doesnt really fulfill any real needs.
>>29501976
No they don't. Stop making good logistics not a thing.
>>29502026
Battle rifles are superior in very way.
Except in practicality.
>>29506355
Teach people to be more disciplined with their fire and they'll be fine
Build some cheap drones to drop a resupply on their head whenever needed.
>>29506275
Bullpup is better. Nothing is lost, losts of minor advantages for that design. Military is fudd. Literally the only reason.
>>29506527
you get a longer barrel/shorter weapon,
thats the only advantage. and it doesnt really matter for the military. they care about weight.
you loose the simplicity of a conventional design. which militaries actually care about.
look at the french, they're most likely dropping the bullpup.
>>29506579
Moving the weight closer to your body makes it easier to handle
bullpup is just as simple
>>29504684
/thread
>>29506594
>Moving the weight closer to your body makes it easier to handle
as someone who has tested doing combat drills with l85, that is bullshit. it feels more akward, the balance point is too far back , so you kinda get too little weight on your left arm, its most noticable when prone.
>bullpup is just as simple
and no, longer linkages causes problems, its an unoptimal design solving nonissues.
The problem I've always had with military "marksmen" and "snipers" (at least in past wars; they're getting better, especially when it comes to snowflake calibers) is that by and large the guys actually doing it are stuck with the same shitty ball ammunition as all the rest of the footsloggers.
The military can claim "maximum effective range" all they like, you're not going to kill a man at 1200m with 7.62 M80 ball. If you expect a man to make precision shots, he needs more than just a precision rifle. He needs precision ammunition.
>>29503047
This guy is correct. The whole idea of the DMR is that he is integrated into the squad. That's harder if he can't use the squad's ammo.
>>29507326
But M855 sucks. What other options does he have to extend his range?
Didn't the Marines or the Army or someone do a study and figured out that 90% of firefights happened within 50m anyways?
>>29507573
If someone died 500m+ from your position, it was either artillery or an airstrike the did it.
this is like the most retired attempt by arfags to justify owning something calibrated in designed to wound
>>29507653
>designed to wound
>>29507573
http://www.cfspress.com/sharpshooters/pdfs/Operational-Requrements-For-An-Infantry-Hand-Weapon.pdf
Conclusion: 100 yards is the maximum range at which a person is likely to actually hit what they are aiming at. Beyond that, hit probability begins to sharply decline. After 300 yards, hit probability becomes essentially zero.
>>29507695
Good thing im not an infantryman. Hunting would be difficult if I could only hit shit inside 100 yards.
>>29506579
Implying the French are worth emulation.
>>29502024
BR= Select fire rifle with a full size cartridge (FAL, M14, SCAR H, G3)
DMR= A rifle designed to be used by a marksman, doesn't have to be a full size calibre (SR25, M39, MK12, HK417, STAR-21,)
TL;DR not all battle rifles are DMRs, and not all DMRs are battle rifles.
>>29508329
I think what you idiots fail to mention is that DMRs are tuned for accuracy its not just the size of the bullet that makes a rifle a dmr
>>29501976
What is the best DMR these days in .308 anyway?
an AR-10 clone? SCAR?
>>29504684
ackchtually....
calibers have bullets with better ballistics, beyond a flatter trajectory even.
>>29508495
Acktually though that is true, the gun is more important. Otherwise some 2.5 or even 3 MOA 308 would be outshooting an MK12
>>29509203
I meant to say some FAL or PTR
>>29504684
All weapons in COD are 100% accurate to a pixel when aimed regardless of caliber or distance to target.
>>29506527
>Nothing is lost
>if a catastrophic failure happens it will blow right in your face
>many of them are not ambidextrous, look at l85, they even need to train lefties to shoot with their non-dominant hand
>balance is shit
And all of that for whooping 25% length reduction.
Not to mention introducing a new weapon that handles differently and re-training everyone would be costly and time consuming as fuck and the benefit doesn't make up for it in the slightest.
>>29508329
BR = HUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHEUHEEHU
>>29506579
But the French drop all their rifles.
>>29507653
Oh, this meme again...
