http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/uncategorized/fireclean-sues-over-vuurwapenblog-articles/
What is everyone's opinion on this?
Personally I think it's pretty shitty that fireclean is suing vuurwapenblog. If you look at the document linked there, it seems like their argument is that fireclean isn't crisco, it's just extremely similar.
>>29472574
Next thing you know Froglube is going to sue someone because people found out that it's just coconut oil.
>>29472574
Truly meme grease. So is pic related.
All gun lube is boring shit borrowed from other industries. People need to fucking relax.
>>29472650
I'm sticking with Mobil 1 and Hoppe's gun oil. Both do a kickass job and cost next to nothing.
>>29472721
>Hoppe's gun oil
if you wanna go cheaper, use plain mineral oil instead of the Hoppe's
because that's all it is
>>29472721
I dunno about the mobil, but I do like Hoppes oil.
Some good ass shit.
FC ain't going to win back any customers becuase of this, but they're probably suing to cover their own ass when they can't pay their rent. Also maybe to legally prove that vuurwapen misrepresented their product.
Still, it is their right to sue. I've seen people say that this will make reviewers afraid to make critical reviews, but vuurwapen didn't make a review based on subjective opinion. They published articles making claims based on scientific evidence (and they emphasis that everything the present is scientific).
I don't know why they had such a hard on for going after FC even after people thought it was over priced, even if it worked.
>>29472742
>Also maybe to legally prove that vuurwapen misrepresented their product.
As opposed to already have being judged in the court of public opinion I mean. Just them making any statement on their own won't carry any weight.
>>29472742
And Fireclean also has their own scientific test which seems to check out.
For some reason I'm not surprised. The meme culture that erupted from the results probably shafted them.
We need to come up with a meme hashtag for this. Stand with Rand/Can't Stump the Trump etc.
>>29472742
>FC ain't going to win back any customers
a lot of people using it didn't get mad over the whole thing. lots of current users still support them.
what it did do is cut off any new customers and that's what is killing them.
I have noticed that no one on /k/ wants to say they use fireclean anymore except for me and I've always posted as anon. None of the tripfags will even if they still use it.
>>29472735
Hoppe's is quite a bit thicker. Might just be mineral oil with some thickening agent but I like it.
>>29472838
There are different grades of mineral oil
>>29472860
So, I could spend a shitload of time hunting down the correct viscosity of mineral oil, or I could just buy hoppes, which is what I want, and like a dollar a bottle.
Nah m8
>>29472879
I think he's poking fun at how people hate on fireclean while suggesting that hoppe's is doing the same kind of shit
So how bad is it if I just use white lithium grease?
>>29472893
You may be right.
Given the choice between mineral and vegetable, at least mineral does not spoil, and can be used to keep eggs fresh without refrigeration.
>>29472900
not great if you use it on parts that should be oiled
but a fine lube for slide rails, bolt carriers and the like
>>29472783
we wont let them fucking soil fireclean name brand cooking oil
lol fireclean is serious
200 page document and contracted a lab for testing plus whatever legal costs for your lawyers
if you're selling bunk you don't go to those lengths to defend your product
doubt they'll get on top monetarily even if they win but at least they'll be vindicated
>>29472991
They have a reputation to maintain, they have to go to those lengths or they are out of business.
>>29473027
their reputation is going to take a slight hit as being "the guys who sued some blogger" even if said blogger is a jackass but that's not really the problem. the damage has already been done, honestly. searching fireclean in google gets you a bunch of results by other blogs about the whole situation so the moment someone is curious about the product and searches for info they're going to see those and probably run the fuck away.
>>29473067
Right, and if they sue and can prove in court that their product isn't just Crisco they are vindicated.
>>29473067
Some places seem to side with FC, or at least seem natural. Not as many as places that side with vuurwapen blog. Some side with vuurwapen just becuase they're a specifically a blog and "muh first amendment".
>>29473099
He does have a point though. Any prospective customer right now would probably just skip them. It'll take a while for the whole process to actually finish as well. vuurwapen could settle though.
>>29473099
the true battle is going to be getting the top google results changed although i suppose with some manipulation it could be done
vuurwapen is probably going to fold unless he's representing himself. even the gofundme is only going to get him so far with a lawyer
>>29473139
doesn't he get court fees if he's found innocent?
what about anti-slap lawsuit laws?
>>29472991
When you sell 5 cents of crisco for 15 bucks, you can afford some shit...
Seriously, it may be good stuff but I see no reason to move away from something proven like CLP...
What's really shitty is they are suing some chemistry student, Everett Baker, who was interested and helped do some of the tests for vuurwapen blog
that's pretty fucking low
>>29472783
>We need to come up with a meme hashtag for this. Stand with Rand/Can't Stump the Trump etc.
Can't screwy the tuohy?
>>29473498
Endure with Vuur?
>>29473600
This one is better
I gave his legal fund 20 bucks because I don't want it to become a commonplace thing where companies can sue bloggers who expose their bullshit. I hope fireclean get's hit back with big legal fees and it discourages other companies from trying to do similar things. Otherwise I fear all gun reviews will become boring product showcases without any criticism.
>>29473627
this is a little different than "lol this gun sucks a dick" and getting sued by a company. fireclean has deemed that they have a strong enough case with evidence to the contrary than what vuurwapen was presenting to the point that they believe they will win a lawsuit.
>>29474072
>this is a little different than "lol this gun sucks a dick" and getting sued by a company.
No anon that's precisely what it is, Fireclean may think they have a strong enough case but that really doesn't mean anything. They're even going after some random fucking chem student who helped with testing (with actual fucking lab equipment by the way) which goes to show Fireclean is assmad about the science.
You know what that sounds like?
Those fuckers who claim the scientific method is bullshit and try to come up with all sorts "homeopathic" lunacy. Fireclean's quickly becoming the anti-vaxxer, raw foodist, fruitinarian freak of the gun world by pitching such a fucking fit over this. They're either conmen or absolutely fucking insane, either way their belief in something isn't really much to base anything off of now is it?
>>29472574
If Fireclean has provable damages and Vuurwapenblog was stupid enough to make a defamatory, libelous, or damaging and false statement publicly he will get his shit pushed in by a jury. That's just how it works in the U.S. If you can prove damages, you are entitled to relief. Everyone believes the press and public scrutiny should be encouraged, but if he cannot backup what he said in court, he's fucked. Additionally, Fireclean has likely sustained serious loses as a result of his posts and the avalanche that followed it.
>>29473485
>What's really shitty is they are suing some chemistry student, Everett Baker, who was interested and helped do some of the tests for vuurwapen blog
Maybe if he wasn't an expert on materials characterization, he shouldn't have provided services.
>>29475032
That's not at all what's happening, if you go out and say you can scientifically prove all nighthawk 1911's are actually rebranded RIA's and that effects their sales, they can take you to court for it, even if they actually are pretty similar.
>>29475032
>They're even going after some random fucking chem student who helped with testing (with actual fucking lab equipment by the way) which goes to show Fireclean is assmad about the science.
Let's not pretend that an undergraduate using university equipment for a personal project for a blog article is any sort of "official" testing. Yes, there are other tests as well, at another university and at an undisclosed location. I think the reason he was sued as well was becuase he said that FC isn't actually the same as crisco or canola oil according to the tests, but it's close enough, so it's effectively the same anyways and vuurwapen's initial conjecture is supported.
Maybe fireclean has bullshit science, but who is to say that vuurwapen's isn't bullshit either? And vuurwapen is basing their side of the story on scientific evidence as well. In fact they emphasize that it is not opinion or conjecture that they are presenting, but rather undisputed scientific.
>>29472632
>>29472619
Thing is though, nobody stopped using frog lube.
Why, maybe coconut oil is the shit.
Fire clean is the only one losing customers, even though Canola oil has been used on artillery and heavy weapons since WW1.
Hell, Ballistol is mineral oil based CLP that was also made in WW1, but it still works better than strait mineral oil and is the only CLP that can be used inside of and out of your gun without giving a fuck of using too much, as it never hurts anything, only makes things better.
Thing is Ballistol is upfront about what it is and who used it German Grunts in both World Wars; while Fire Clean and Frog lube make up stories about their CLP being invented by special forces troops in the field while killing terrorists.
The issue isn't that vuurwapen claimed that it's vegatable oil. The issue is that it's JUST vegatable oil, not the vegetable oil blend (with shit that makes guns work good) that fireclean claims it is. Fireclean is taking issue with the claim that they're just repacking supermarket oil.
There actually aren't that many shooting test comparing firecelan and canola oil. This the the only one I recall seeing
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?176065-My-2000-round-Fireclean-vs-Canola-Oil-test
tl;dr: shit works but stinks and stains.
I see this as basically the same with green gas vs propane as airshit propellant (excuse the airshit). Green gas in the US is pretty much propane, but added silicon lube and scent. Some started using propane since that came to light, but there are still plenty of people who use green gas due to it not smelling like rotten eggs and didn't void warranties.
If vuurwapen had just said "Yeah, it's pretty much canola oil with stuff that makes it not stink and stain when you shoot it. Pay the premium if you want, or save money if you don't mind a stinky BCG since some primers stink anyway", this shit storm probably would not have happened.
>>29472721
Mobil 1 wears on steel
only thing I use is hornady one shot. Looks to be engineered with a purpose unlike crisco and coconut.
>>29475654
kek
>>29472900
not bad at all, it's all I use. might be too thick for some applications but I haven't run into any yet. pistols, revolvers, semi-automatic rifles, bolt actions all love lithium grease.
>>29475721
it gives a higher Fe count in all UOA tests than any other brand of oil, champ
3-5 points higher, actually
>>29475738
>lithium grease
>revolvers
please don't tell me you do this
>>29475032
yes, they are assmad about the science. they are so assmad about the science they went and got an independent testing lab to do test work saying they aren't just pushing canola oil. that's how assmad they are. they got more science to counter the college kid and anonymous tester science.
>>29475416
>If vuurwapen had just said "Yeah, it's pretty much canola oil with stuff that makes it not stink and stain when you shoot it. Pay the premium if you want, or save money if you don't mind a stinky BCG since some primers stink anyway", this shit storm probably would not have happened.
That's pretty much what they said except for minus it not stinking and staining, because canola oil doesn't do that either. I don't know where you heard that, but it isn't true.
He never said it *was* canola oil, just chemically indistinguishable.
>>29475748
"Higher iron content" =/= "wears on steel"
>>29476051
He got several different PhDs to look at the results, and verify. The original testing wasn't done by the kid either, it was done by a professor at the University of Arizona, with a Ph.D. in organic chemistry. Following that he showed it to several other PhD chemists.
It wasn't him who put out the claim that fireclean was crisco either, that was George Fennell of WeaponShield, he just tested it.
Fireclean isn't coming back with real science either, they're just going to show it isn't *exactly* crisco. He never said it was *exactly* crisco, just chemically similar.
Just as a reminder what the actual claims were
"FireClean is probably a modern unsaturated vegetable oil virtually the same as many oils used for cooking."
>>29478088
> I don't know where you heard that, but it isn't true.
The shooting test in the link posted? It's by no means a controlled scientific test that would hold up court, but at least it is an actual real world comparison that shows what the differences in the test result might result in instead of just saying that it's chemically indistinguishable, thus essentially the same.
Reading about it more, I don't think the tests would matter much if the case goes to court. I think the fact that vuurwapen claims that FC lied and mislead consumers would be the most important factor. While being overpriced and hyped, I don't think that FC actually lied and made up any facts. FC would probably focus more on intent and claim that FC was acting maliciously, probably even due to the encouragement of George Fennell who they also are suing for false advertisement. That how their complaint reads at least after skimming it for a bit.
>>29478399
Well fuck me that's odd.
I've been running crisco as my gun lube for ages, and so far my BCG looks fine. No smell either.
Maybe different brands have different additives?
>>29475252
As someone who works in a university, I can tell you that a UG using university equipment is not much different than your "official testing". In both cases they'll be working uder the "guidance" of the technician who is actually operating the spectrometer.
>>29478513
pure is pure though, unless it's these oil companies are lying about the ingredients of their cooking oil.
That test is 1000 rounds per oil with no cleaning, alternating between rapid and slow fire rates. Typical range day for most people will probably not get the gun to heat up and cool down that frequently.
>>29475779
I do. the lockwork is smooth as butter.
>>29473099
Their argument is that spectroscopy doesn't reveal things about density, boiling point, etc which are more important characteristics. Let alone that if Fireclean doesn't go rancid, it isn't canola or some other vegetable oil
>>29478059
>chemically indistinguishable.
Under a spectroscope, which is doesn't tell the whole story about physical characteristics
>>29472632
>>29479469
NIR tells a whole fucking lot.
>>29479444
But it fries a mean egg!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkxz8fTBn20
>>29479877
That means we can used old gunked up FC as motor oil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaeKrqJJqm0&t=2m40s
>>29472574
Reading the data he had done....
Yeah well what they said is 100% accurate.
Fireclean IS Vegetable oil with none or only trace additives.
Im confident you could use fireclean and crisco interchangeably.
This is not something new and these oils have been used forever but fuck Fireclean for their stupid false advertising and trumped up claims.
Froglube is coconut oil.... Fireclean is canola oil.... and this is why I use mobil 1 and CLP on my firearms.
>>29475318
Hoppes is just kerosene too.
The truth is, there is NO innovative gun cleaner/lube on the market. Zero. They are all just remarketed, slightly tweaked other things.
And people still use cleaners and lubes meant for cars or other machines on their guns.
I wouldn't be surprised if car parts lubes/cleaners are all just bullshit too with a fancy label and a high mark up.
>>29480607
Fuck dude all that shit's just dead dinosaurs.
>>29480607
there's been a shit ton of research and development into car lubes, because that's a huge market. If you can show your slightly more expensive fancy oil does a bit better in high temp/ pressure environments, you can make a million dollars when X company cars start shipping with a crankcase full.
