I know this is a hot button issue regarding firearms, but why does it seem that many of the 'old school' manufacturers are cheapening their product so much lately? Remington, Marlin, S&W, Charter, Colt, and others all seem to be going down the shitter when it comes to making a decent product. In some instances (ahem, R31), it seems like they've actually managed to unlearn 70 years of expertise when it comes to design/materials. I'm aware that many of these companies have gone through similar periods of quality control issues, but really never all at the same time; I'm still blown away by how a 1950 pre-model 10 compares to a 2002+ production. The recent ones feel like a cheap imitation of the original, as if they've given up entirely. Hell, even the cheap saturday night special guns like Iver Johnson still had pretty good fit and finish.
It's obvious that these companies are struggling financially (or have already been acquired by other firms/conglomerates), but what is the root cause of their woes? International trade? Poor investments? How difficult can it be to make a product that was already perfected decades ago? Also, I want your opinion on the actual quality, too: am I just showing my biases and overreacting here, or is it a legitimate complaint? What companies (new or old) do you feel still have the 'spirit' with them when it comes to making a good product?
>>29464372
'spirit'
walther
fn
steyr
BCM
arsenal
benelli
i like cz and mossberg too but i know some people will cry about their finish
Marlin actually got bought out by a company that's turned the quality around. Anything 2015 or newer is as good as their old stuff.
Most of these fucks are making money hand over fist, look at the stock prices of S&W over the last 10 years. It's justill a continuation of assembly line consumerism. People say the exact same thing about cars, boots, power tools, etc.
The thing is, people just don't want to pay for nice stuff. You want a nice new revolver? Buy a Freedom Arms. But it's going to cost you $2500. Dame with boots. Go to any sears, walmart, etc, and you'll see $50 pairs of boots all day. None of those are going to last more than a few months. Quality professional level stuff has been relegated to a specialty low volume niche market.
>>29464372
Winchester went through some dark times between the 60s and 90s, but since FNH bought them out they're about as good as they've ever been.
The same can be said for pretty much any brand under the FN umbrella.
>>29464372
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSqNE8Out3o
I feel like this issue is exacerbated by a near universal case of rose-tinted glasses when looking at older guns.
Yes, some of them may have been "better", but an objective measure of quality is very hard to come by. Surely the big companies put out a few lemons in their old runs, and who is to say whether their lemon-rates have increased or decreased, as the poor quality examples would have been removed from the market years ago, leaving only the best examples for comparison today.
>>29464372
Everyone wants to have fifty guns, but not everyone can afford it.
People these days like living like they're making three times their salary. That's the market pressure that manufacturers are responding to. It's not just guns either, people who make shit salary still want to have the latest phone features. Never mind that the phone will break in a year and they'll have to spend more money.
>>29464438
That's called survivor bias, and it applies to cars, appliances, computers, and furniture as well as guns. In a lot of cases it's the opposite of reality - getting a car to 200,000 miles today is no big deal but that would have been a fucking miracle up through the 80s for anything but a Volvo.
>>29464439
It's possible to make usable, reliable cheap guns. Savage does it, but not all companies can seem to get the right mindset for which features can be made shittier or omitted on a cheap gun without making it a BAD gun.
>>29464476
>Survivor Bias
I couldn't remember the term and it was driving me absolutely crazy. You're a saint, Mr. Myers.
>>29464405
marlin has not been rebought out by anyone
the huge quality decline was them firing everyone and moving the plant
it took em till 2015 for new workers to figure out how to build leverguns again
>want to get Marlin 1895
>remember that shit-ass crossbolt safety
>remember all of the sharp edges on machined parts
>remember the chattering on the inside of the receiver
>remember the deplorable trigger
The fuck happened?
>>29464502
Marlin lost the institutional knowledge decades ago. They were using the same machines for like 70 years without any significant maintenance and kept fudging the design documents with hand edits to account for the machines degrading. We're talking Warhammer 40k techpriest levels of kludge. The shutdown and factory move was about a fresh start with proper, modern design docs.
This doesn't just apply to firearms. Unfortunately all manufactured products have gone this way, furniture, cars, clothes, tools.
Things made with quality and care have become, in many instances, specialist niche items. You have to choose carefully companies that still make, usually small quantities of high quality goods. They're usually hard to find and not just in the big and obvious stores like all the cheap shit is. For example Veritas tools or Filson wool coats.
It's gotten to the point where a lot of people don't even look for quality anymore, they just look for the cheapest, most visually appealing and easiest to update and replace.
>>29464888
I blame the Chinese and other third world manufacturing. Quality can't be affordable when cheap chinkshit undercuts it and robs it of economies of scale. That 40% tariff Trump is proposing could help a lot with that.
>>29464888
Honestly its because of consumer culture.
Why buy something that's going to last you 30 years thats really expensive when I can buy something that will last me 5 thats much cheaper? I'll probably buy an upgraded version next year anyways.
We realized that we don't really want things that last a lifetime because we wont even use them for more than a decade.
>>29464893
That's certainly part of it. But it comes down to consumers and companies too. People want cheap and companies know they can sell a lot of cheap.
The workforce has to play a big part of it as well. I, a Bong and my country is a great example of it, when we had pride and industrial might and capitalism we produced and invented excellent things. But as socialism grew and consumer culture grew and workers wanted more and more for either a lesser quality product or the same, Unions would demand more pay even though productivity and quality was hitting rock bottom. Sheffield knives are a great example, pre-WW1 (and pre-WW2 at a stretch) they were excellent, made of high quality modern steel, made by a skilled and rightfully proud artisan workforce. They made the place world famous. Post 1970 thought that's all a lie and they're a pile of shit. You have about 3 choices for a decent Sheffield pocket knife now and they're all the top of the range expensive model produced for people who whine about the decline in quality, while everything else made, the main focus of their production, is poor shit.
>>29464888
This makes me so sad.....i remember buyinf craftsman tools that were great quality. Now all craftsman tools in stores are made in china and are very poorly made. Along with a lot of knives and shit ive had over the years what happened? Even some prestigious companies that focused on quality has gone down the drain
>>29464407
This senpai.
The browning and Winchester semi auto shotguns are of excellent quality.
>>29464934
>But as socialism grew and consumer culture grew
What
>workers wanted more and more for either a lesser quality product or the same
This is a free market at work, consumers started to value mid quality with low prices, so the market followed. No one wanted to pay for top tier quality at high prices so those companies failed. Companies had to reduce quality to keep up with a market demand for lower quality goods and low prices.
>Unions would demand more pay even though productivity and quality was hitting rock bottom
Where the fuck did unions come from like what
>while everything else made, the main focus of their production, is poor shit
Companies make what sells and guess what sells, poor shit. Blame the consumer not the companies.
What is this post really
>>29464967
Because quality based companies weren't making enough money on sales. Shits to expensive vs what consumers would pay for. So they lower the cost of manufacturing said goods to keep up with the market.
People dont want to pay $1000 for the best thing when they can get the same good for $100 that is a lower but more cost effective quality. This is the world of mass manufacturing.
Why do people not get economics
stuff used to be manufactured in america by generally skilled and intelligent people. as jobs and factories got outsourced to third world countries with dumber starving unskilled workers who didn't even know what the fuck they were building, quality declined.
over time businesses also figured out how to cut corners to save cost and maximize profit, usually leading to slightly inferior product in comparison to the previous version
>>29464996
also this. colt cites this as the reason they discontinued the python and wont make it again. just not enough people willing to drop 5k on a gun to make a profit
This seems like a theme for nearly every gun company, but honestly the only one that seems to just keep getting better is Ruger and that's really, really weird considering everything about old Bill Ruger.
>>29464372
because they were kinf in an age of wood and steel. Those things require craftsmanship. Now we're in the age of polymer. You can make 3 glocks for the time and cost of 1 old school quality revolver, 1911 or wonder nine. Probably even less time and money. Theyre a business, theyre going to look for the best way to produce a product that's wanted and save money. The M&P might not be as pretty as some of their classic guns, but it cheaper and easier to make and is still of good quality so we're going to see a lot of companies going this route now. Sig, beretta, smith and Wesson, ruger have already done this
>>29465016
Colt won't make the snake guns again because for all intents & purposes they CANT make the snake guns again.
Fuck Colt dosent even have a real factory, let alone a highly skilled veteran workforce. Asides from those 1918 $9000 "colt SLR" Imitation BARs & rebranded cooper rifles colt is dead.
>coming from someone who owns a King cobra & anaconda
>>29464647
>shit that was just made up, the post
Marlin always ran rather informally, by 90s marlin stuff was lightyears ahead of their current productions.
I sent a new 336 back to them twice because it would not chamber rounds. All then did was mount the stock crooked both times and cover it it in what appeared to be flour.
RE: Marlin
According to Denis Prisbey they've been getting their shit together, look up posts concerning Marlin by "DPris" on the gun forums from the last year or two.
>>29464888
>Cars
>Lower quality then in the 70's, 80's or 90's
Hohohohoho that's hilarious.
>>29464888
Cars today are more reliable, more fuel efficient, and better made today than ever before
Just shut up retard
>>29464372
I need to get this off my chest because /k/ rarely ever talks about it.
If you buy a new firearm, take it to see a gunsmith. Right out of the box. gunsmith. He, or fuck its 2016, she, will polish the internals, balance it, or make small adjustments, and for between 200-300 dollars more, you will have the gun you wanted, if not something better.
Modern guns are made quickly, and "get the job done" but if what you are looking for is a painstakingly well crafted weapon that is an extension of your arm when you pick it up....
...visit a fucking gunsmith. Support the craft.
>>29464893
you blame the chinese, which is funny, I am an american, I blame the fucking politicians and business owners who allowed this shit to happen in the first place, then depend on people with a narrow line of view to "BLAME THE MEXICANS, CHINESE, OR ANYTHING" Nevermind its our masters who fail us.
>>29466817
So much this. I get a huge laugh any time someone implies that cars from the "golden era" were anything but utter shit by today's standards. They don't make them like they used to, thank God.
>>29466842
if you want a gun that has that much autism, yeah sure. or you could get a gun built by specialist gunsmiths instead of a guy who spends half his time tapping bases for scpe rings, and installing and boresighting scopes for hunters.
on the other hand, a glock or VP9 or P320 or PPQ can be successfully taken out of the box and into competition.
>>29466875
driving classic cars is eye opening sometimes. so many drive like boats... because they're boat sized.
>>29464888
>survivor bias: the post
>>29466884
Ill ignore your autism comment and get to disassembling your argument. A glock, VP9, or any other weapon you have mention will benefit from visiting a gunsmith.
Is your weapon purly for CC keep you safe? You wont be shooting very far. Get a port. Bigger guy? Get a compensator. Manageable recoil, get it down to kicking like a .22.
Lightweight? Professionally and safely reduce weight.
Got a fucked up problem with mag feeding? Fixed.
My comment was directed at people who want to have the gun they want, work the way they want it. Not the gun you want, for them.
Long story short. Eat a dick.
>>29464372
Now companies famous for cheap clones are turning out stuff like this
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/09/foghorn/gun-review-masterpiece-arms-bolt-action-mpa-308-ba-rifle/
>>29466817
>Cars today are more reliable
lol
cars today are built with the expectation that it will be traded in for something new in 5 years, and will only be used for trips to the mall.
Firearm manufactures are a lot like electronics companies, in that it's not at all uncommon for a conglomerate to purchase all of the intellectual rights, copyrights, and trademarks, and then resume business like nothing had changed.
Polaroid is a good recent example of this. The tablets being put out under that name have nothing to do wit the cameras they used to make.
I have three uncles that are into guns. Every time I see one of them they want to tell me about what a great deal they got on an AR15 they found. They own all sorts of S&W M&P-15's, DPMS, and Bushmaster AR's. Most of them have probably never been shot. One of the Bushmaster AR's that I checked out at my uncle's house had a piece of scrap metal stuck in the receiver that prevented the bolt from closing. It was like this from the factory and my uncle had never noticed because he had never shot it or even bothered to look it over and function test it. The same day, that very same uncle of mine shot his S&W Shield for the first time. He had been concealing it for over a year since he bought it.
The reason why quality declines is because retards want whatever's cheapest, not what's quality. Why make a high quality firearm when it's being sold to someone who will probably never shoot it more than 100 rounds, if at all. This is why Century will get away with making their shitty US made AK's that fall apart after 3000 rounds. Despite the loads of bad information coming out about them, the percentage of gun owners who actually care enough to do the research on their purchases is small. Most gun owners go to the nearest Cabelas and ask to see "that badass AK47" and then end up paying $850 for an RAS-47 that will probably never get shot more than 300 rounds before it's pawned to finance a new lift kit for their zombie squad apocalypse jeep.
That's my guess anyways.
>>29467477
>implying
Every single car my family has bought since 1997 has racked up 130,000 miles or is on pace to. That would be fucking UNHEARD of in earlier generations.
>>29468558
>1997
post mid 2000s is garbage
and 130k isn't impressive 200-300k range is what is
