Why are armies using 5.56 or 7.62x39 if it cannot penatrate level 3 or 4 body armor this seriously interferes with troop leathality
Because very few soldiers outside the US military have any kind of armor.
Because we are fighting poorfags without body armor.
CBJ-MS unique cartridge can pierce even APC armour
>>29454115
Some one else knows the good word of the cbj lord.. Also lots of nations have body armor also too any shmuk with 90 bucks gets an ar500 plate
>>29454028
Probably wont be too hard to switch an AR-15 platform over to a smoothbore, with saboted rounds when the government requires it.
We will never be rid of the AR-15 platform. They will find a way to make it shoot lasers, and you will still have that shitty fucking M-16.
>>29454152
>lots of nations
Yeah like the NATO ones, which generally don't start shit with each other.
AP exists in 5.56, 7.62, 9x19 etc. If armor became prevalent all anyone would have to do is switch production
>>29454028
I really wonder if the CBJ-MS was as amazing as claimed, but as far as I know not even the country of origin (Sweden) has started fielding it yet, and I'm not sure they will.
Cool idea though, but special snowflake calibres rarely seems like a good idea.
>>29454348
>>29454152
No they wouldn't. they like the casualties living. That's why they designed the m16 bullet to wound.
>>29454115
>>29454152
I think if it really was as revolutionary as it seems, and by that, a uzi-sized armor killer, it would've seen a lot more attention and usage already considering it came into the spotlight around 2000.
>>29456629
>>29456632
It uses super meme ammo to get that performance, otherwise it's a standard smg.
>>29456632
>>29454028
But seriously, why did we adopt 5.7 instead?
>Can't defeat level 3 armor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMSNc3lZsYE
>16 inch barrel
>3+ rated armor
kys
>>29454028
Green tip ammo can penetrate both Level III, Level IIIA and Level IV body armor. Not sure who told you otherwise.
>>29457007
How come the US doesn't invest in more green paint then? Just putting a little bit on the tip of a bullet doesn't seem like it'd be that expensive. Also is the paint available to civilians?
>>29457011
(You)
![2034492_09_200rds_5_56_green_tip_penetrat_640[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/krn9CPz.jpg "2034492_09_200rds_5_56_green_tip_penetrat_640[1].jpg")
>>29457011
Not sure if you're serious or just retarded.
Here's a little wisdom for you:
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M855 [Green tip]: 5.56×45mm 62-grain FN SS109-equivalent ball cartridge with a steel penetrator tip over a lead core in a partial copper jacket (the steel tip sticks out of the front of the bullet and is uncovered by the jacket).
>>29454102
This isn't 1984 anymore friend. Russia, China, and all of Europe now issue modern body armor. Hell even third world shit holes like Iraq, Mali, etc, have some limited access to plate carriers.
>>29456935
>Cheap to convert 5.56mm production to 5.7mm
>Easy to stow away in a tank or IFV (or aircraft)
>Good enough performance
>>29457011
1/10
>>29454102
>>29457055
>>29457091
Outside NATO/Russia
>>29457017
>>>29457011
>Not sure if you're serious
>>29454028
Who cares if it doesn't penetrate? A whole lot of force and thus physical trauma is being transfered into whoever is being shot. Could crack a couple ribs, cause some internal bleeding, who knows. That's more then enough to disable a fighter.
>>29454028
Because 1. Plates only cover vitals, plenty of space to shoot someone. They're only about a square foot, depending on the type. Some Russian shit is bigger like kora kulons but those aren't as common anymore.
2. Most kills are not from guns, but explosives, bombs, CAS, artillery, all that fun shit
3.
>the average soldier has level 4 rated armor
Jesus fuck, maybe if you're special forces.
And ANY level of armor fails after a certain threshold of hits, meaning that even if the first doesn't penetrate, as long as the soldier in question can aim properly, getting seen enough to get shots to the armor already almost guarantees at least 2 or 3 follow up shots.
Armor is a second chance, not a shield.
>>29457236
im a low level grunt in a third rate euro army, and i have level 4 plates...
>>29457241
Guarantee that they're not level 4, and you're being lied to so you feel more secure.
>>29457245
seeing as we've shot at these plates, i doubt it. Plus, i don't live in a country where the government has to lie to their soldiers :^)
>>29454028
I don't know why everyone is arguing about the viability of armour availability and the likes outside America- here's the facts: Australia stepped away from the SLR L1A1 7.62mm round and moved over to the Aus styer 5.56mm round for one reason predominantly- if a man is injured, it puts more strain on the enemy than if he was killed due to a) taking more than one other soldier to remove him from the battle field and b) tying up medical resources in recovery- if that is even successful-
>>29454028
Range and accuracy. Also I wouldnt count om that body armor so much, we use a steel core (the former Warsaw Pact countries do to), so the rounds will zip right through any soft armor and light skinned vehicles.
Besides if you look at the rest of the world no first or even second tier army uses 7.62x39 anymore (5.45 and such).
The only reason x39 is still in use is because the AK and ammo is cheap and there are/were massive stock piles left over from the cold war.
>>29457373
>>29457381
Wait....why am I Lucas Middleton?
Hey we got names
>>29457424
You're not anymore
>>29454347
There's the .458 socom already, America's not 9x39.
CBJ-MS
> Icepick : The gun
>>29454028
Because in order to penetrate an NIJ IV/ESAPI/other equivalent rated plate you would need something like the 7.62x51mm M993 AP ammo that costs $2.61 a round and leaves a wound chanel similar to pistol ammunition after going through the plate and likely being less effective for quickly stopping the target than any current 5.56 ammunition fired below the target's rifle plates. Soldiers aren't going to get issued ammo capable of penetrating current rifle plates because it just isn't worth it and won't be until militaries start issuing more rifle plates to cover soldier's groins.
>b-but muh 6.5 CBJ
It won't do jack shit against NIJ IV/ESAPI/other equivalent rated plates. It fires a tungsten carbide penetrator that's the same weight and dimensions as the penetrator in the 5.56x45mm M995 except at a lower velocity, and the 5.56 M995 will only penetrate about 1 milimeter further than the .30-06 M2 AP that NIJ IV and ESAPI plates are rated against. Unless they release an updated version of the 6.5 CBJ that manages even higher velocities or NIJ III/SAPI plates start becoming popular again for some reason it's already obsolete.
>>29456629
They designed the 5.56 caliber to fragment about halfway through the wound channel, which it does quite well when fired out of regular length barrels.
Read your history before posting fudd-lore.
>>29457373
This bullshit about "oh wounding is actually better cuz it takes 3 people out of the fight instead of justjustyou see if 1 guy is wounded, two have to care for him."
I first started hearing it in soldier of fortune magazine in the early 90's.
Utter bullshit. To military has ever intentionally switched thier main infantry weapon caliber to a less lethal alternative for this reason. Ever.
Its a pre internet mall ninja meme that needs to die.
>>29457241
Yeah, they gave us "level 4 helmets" for afghan.
And one of our guys took a round of 7.62x39 to his "lvl4 helmet."
Went right through it, almost like it wasn't really meant to stop rifle fire or something.......
>>29454028
Body armour plates covers around 15-25% of teh body. Often, like in case of prone target they cover nothing.
>>29457007
Link to m855 defeating level IV ceramic with one hit pls
>>29454347
Plasma uppers and battery mags when?
>>29458856
So you and whoever issued your helmet were retarded? No official body has ever claimed to have level 4 helmets. Plates? Yeah, deffinately.
>>29457424
it's your true identity. vicky sampson is just some dumb broad you stole credit card info from.
>>29454028
Because those rounds were developed and instated when the primary hostile forces didn't have body armor, and they see no need to change because advances in projectile tech would yield that, in the case of a proper war, any army nowadays could easily issue CBJ-style projectiles for their rifles.
Plus, most hits don't happen on the plate anyway. On another note, does anyone have ballistics gel data of the CBJ rounds?
>>29454028
Lvl 3 armor only protects the heart and lungs.It's alot more effective to wound an enemy then kill one.takes men and resources to get a wounded man off the battle field.that's why 5.56 and 7.62 are not going anywhere for a long while.
>>29458856
And you're basing your opinion on what? Clearly you're a follower of the media bull shit to read soldier of fortune magazine in the first place. I learned this is the Australian army, so i give more credit to my CSM than some wanker who reads trash magazines and can't even validate his argument.
>>29454028
If plates can stop 7.62 NATO and rimmed, then it makes sense to get as many hits as possible, to get hits outside of the area plates protect. So 5.56 stays relevant.
>>29461777
whatever jew
>>29462251
Takes one to know one.
i would assume it would be costly to have ammo that penatrates fully. Not only that but it would probably make the gun a shit ton heavier.
wat
>>29454113
Not entirely true. In recent years, body armor has become a lot more prevalent with insurgents all over the middle east. Even the Taliban have been starting to back body armor. Probably stolen from the ANA/ANP, Pakistani Army, or given to them by Iran
>>29454028
>what is a Mozambique Drill
Part of the rationale behind the Djibouti Shooty is that two in the chest knocks them down, and one in the head keeps them down. Two to the chest will still do a number on you even if you're in body armour, and not a whole lot in current use will reliably stop a rifle bullet to the head.
When considered in conjunction with the asymmetrical nature of current warfare and the supply differences therein, nothing is lost by sticking with the ammo in current use. After that, there's the cost point to consider: why overhaul an entire stockpile of ammo just to replace a 3-round result with a one-round result? Finally, the vast majority of fire is suppressing fire: you keep the enemy's head down until you can manoeuvre into a position that lets you get a hit wether or not body armour is involved, or until you can get accurate mortar or artillery fire on the enemy position.
>tl;dr that ammo is still in use because there is no tactical reason to replace it
>>29456629
>this meme
>>29457232
That's not how physics works. Stop being a retard.
>>29456629
>>29458856
I like how you don't know how the classification system works.
Level 3 is sufficient to stop 7.62x39.
The body armor commonly worn by first world soldiers will readily stop AK fire.
Fuck, armor worn by third world goatfuckers can stop it.
No, you weren't given a level 4 helmet.
I know this ti be the case, because:
>They are exceedingly rare
>nobody who knows anything would call it that
>you were not in Afghanistan
>you were not in the military
>>29462881
Two to the chest will still do a number on you even if you're in body armour,
Not it will not
>Part of the rationale behind the Djibouti Shooty is that two in the chest knocks them down, and one in the head keeps them down.
No it is not.
The drill exists to get people to rapidly asses if a target is still active or not and kill it with aimed fire to the head.
The individual who first invented it did NOT know if his target was armored or not. He did know that he was badly outgunned and had little ammunition.
There's a reason it's called "failure to stop drill" and not "kill them while they're winded" drill.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk_211
I wonder if those filthy Scandinavians will make a version of this in 7.62x51
>>29457007
green tip is just barely AP, it was designed to better punch through helmets at long range. up against an appropriately rated plate it falls flat
>>29463963
He's not wrong you know.
>>29454028
Because FMJ still penetrates soft armor/sandniggers/womenandchildrun just fine.
When someone ain't dying, you just call arty/air/armor to take em out anyways.
Also, despite being able to stop the bullet, an older, larger cartridge like an 8mm mauser or 30-06 will still rupture organs and fuck you up whether you are wearing armor or not.
>>29462088
This desu fampai
>>29457055
When was the last time that American regulars had to shoot Russians, Chinks, or Europeans on a large scale?
>>29464448
>Chinks
1950-1953 and many US troopers were issued .30 Carbine (which hits with comparable force as the 5.56 within its effective range)
>>29464425
>this bullshit
>>29464462
As in I posted bullshit? Or you agree?
>>29454102
>>29457200
>>29464448
America: Always ready to fight the last war!
>>29457055
Correction
Iraqi soldiers aren't issued body armor by the government.
The soldiers buy their armor from the black market.
>>29464425
>>29464462
>>29464499
Getting hit in a plate with a large-ish round will hurt like a motherfucker but you should be okay as long as it actually hits the plate. Soft armor's a different situation entirely, but anything bigger than a pistol is going to punch through pretty well anyway.
>>29454115
It doesn't do much after that, though.
>>29454115
*so long as the armor isn't even rated against modern AP rifle ammunition, see: >>29458299
