Is the G36A3 better than the M4 carbine?
>>29441591
looks pretty snazzy, but not really.
No.
>>29441591
functionally prob about the same like with any other service rifle that isn't an INSAS-tier meme
looks pretty unadorned, but essentially.
>>29441591
No.
>>29441591
Rifle is fine. Stupid question anyway since the number of people on here who are proficient with both are few.
Probably not.
I read that the elite of the Bundeswehr forces use G36s, rather unlike other nations who all use some variant of M4 at that level.
>>29441657
fucking this
>>29441591
Objectively yes.
They both shoot .223 pretty good and have enough rails to make any tacticool faggot wet himself. Ones probably a lot cheaper than the other.
>>29441591
Passed over-the-beach test
Failed firing-3-mags-without-melting test
I would say it's an.... Improvement maybe?
>>29442207
>melting
Ursula pls
>will we get it in the states for me to buy?
>no?
well then why the fuck do I care?
>>29441591
it's certainly prettier aesthetically but that obviously doesn't count for much
I would say not. With an AR, you add a flattop and RIS and its no more obtrusive. In order to be up to par, the g36 would need to ditch the carry handle thing altogether and go flat topped, and get a dedicated RIS rather than rail sections bolted onto the existing foregrip.
>>29442568
G36 is Fully Ambidextrous.
>>29442610
So is the current model M4
Protip: the army no longer produces old M4 style selector switches, all selector switches being made and replacing broken ones are ambidextrous and M4A1 style.
In other words, the army is phasing out the M4 and broken selector switch and turning old M4s that need repairs into new M4's = your M4 becomes an M4A1
I learned this at regiment HQ today.
>>29441591
I hope the rails around the handguard are easy to remove.
>>29442671
I wonder if the US Army will ever completely move beyond the M4 platform. I mean I get the whole "don't fix what ain't broken" thing but I always assumed that it would eventually be replaced with something cool like the ACR. Only time will tell
>>29441591
that looks way better than the standard G36 but it still looks like an overengineered plastic piece of shit
I want to see a G36 with an AR15-style body.
>>29442568
>RIS
The year is 2003. KAC develops a time machine to send one brave anon forward to gather information of the state of political affairs and the firearms industry in 2016. The following is his story.
>>29442755
Not until careless ammo is a thing
>>29442755
Of the ACR was worth a shit and made good on any of it's promises maybe, MAYBE in a few decades it could happen. But right now there is no reason to switch. Hell the SCAR only sees limited use and anything really replacing the AR is going to have to wait until there is a substantial shift in firearms development
>>29442755
>>29442784
yeah, the M4 will probably only be replaced when there's a really compelling new caliber that forces them to use a different system.
and even then, the replacement might just be an M4 chambered for that.
>>29442795
>Hell the SCAR only sees limited use
the SCAR was never meant to be widely used. the name SCAR itself means "Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle", so that gives you an idea of what it was intended for.
>>29442755
There honestly is no reason to ever change in the foreseeable future. As many others have pointed out, there are plenty of simple upgrades you could make to the M4 platform to make it better while retaining the core design. Why switch away from a system that still has room for growth?
>>29442207
I expect better posts from you, JMB.
>>29442755
Never, the future of US small arms will be like WH40K where obsolescent designs are retained due to extremely reactionary and lazy military planning.
>>29442755
In ranger bat you can use your own SCAR biut the army loves the M4 (as I said now phasing into the M4A1) because it is kjust amazing.
At our long range shooting today my team was hitting an 800m target with an M4 and ACOG. Thats woithg an unco!fortable ass IOTV ÷+ ACH + eyepro on.The same M4 we clear rooms with, the same M4 we count on day and night in Afghanistan.
To an actual soldier and better yet an infantryman, the M4 is amazing. 90℅ of the autistic spergrage here is BS and lacks common sense and practicality. I only browse to pass knowledge and meet anons briefly.
There's advantages and drawbacks to both designs.
I've become a hardened ARfag over the years, but that's because I don't have a soul any more.
When I was young and innocent, I wanted an AK, and then gradually became more interested in short stroke piston designs.
Before I knew it, I had a Middy AR and no slavshit.
>>29442809
The next big leap will be polymer cased ammo IMHOOOOOO
No.
>>29441899
They use h&k 416s, as will the rest of the German military, because the g36 got dropped like a teen mom's baby on prom night.
>>29442755
The acr weights 8.5 pounds unloaded and does nothing the m4 can't do.
>>29443286
lmao no, German SOF stick with the G36 and has publicly defended the rifle when the politicians started the whole melting debacle.
>>29443797
>>29443286
And your pic isn't even German, they're Norwegian and Dutch( Or Danish)
>>29443286
As I understand it, the whole melty thing was a whole bunch of baloney.
They were saying they were gonna drop it and replace it, but now they're not.
I think a few elite units use the 416, but that's about it.
>>29441591
It's pretty much an AR18 in different furniture i.e. a typical short stroke piston rifle of which none have significant advantages over the M4
>>29443286
>Cuz G36 got dropped.
Get the fuck out of here Ursula.
>"hurr I know stuff about the gun cuz /k/ or Der Spiegel told me so."
>>29444302
It has economic advantages for sure though
>>29442207
No one outside of Germany has ever been able to independently confirm the heat related POI shift issues. So they're either a problem that only befell the Bundeswehr models or it's simply made up bullshit.
Lithuania just recently decided to lift the import stop it had put up after the news of these issues broke and will now procure more G36s together with Latvia.
If it's good enough for operators, it's good enough for me.
Both shoot 5.56xdogshit
>>29445950
There was a continuous back and forth over it being the gun or the ammo or the gun or the ammo on and on.
>>29443797
>German SOF stick with the G36
they use all kinds of weapons
>>29446026
Yeah, and the final official verdict was that it was both the ammo and the rifle. This prompted its replacement. But as I said: only in Germany.
>>29446059
Was it Spain that came out first saying "yeah nah our export models are fine, thanks"? It was a while ago and I'm a sub-IQ so I may be remembering it wrong.
>>29446165
Yeah, I think so.
>>29446059
Was there ever any official statement on how old the tested G36 was? When I dug around a bit, some sources claimed that the Bundeswehr still uses the rifles delivered in the early nineties, so pretty much the first batch. The same sources claim that the rifles have not been maintained and upgraded as originally negotiated with H&K because our defense budget has shrunk and shrunk further. So, modern materials and improvements never reached the Bundeswehr, it would seem.
When you put a 15-20 years old rifle through a torture test it was never ordered and designed for, I quite expect material fatigue to play a role...
Does anybody know how old the Spanish/Latvian/Lithuanian rifles are and how well they are maintained?
>>29441591
yes
>>29446420
>Was there ever any official statement on how old the tested G36 was?
It took me a while to find it. The report never got published as these things are usually classified. But one journalist leaked an excerpt. Not from the full report which was due in fall 2014 but from the preliminary summary report which was so widely discussed in spring 2014: https://twitter.com/ThielsChristian/status/589142970517041152
According to this they tested 304 weapons G36 of variants A0-A3 and also the short variant G36K A4 with the standard DM11 Bundeswehr ammo. No exact age information there but the variety of types suggests that weapons of all different ages were tested. Out of these 304 weapons they then chose for every variant two weapons with bad results, one with average results and two with good results, so 5 weapons for each variant. With these 25 weapons and a number of other weapons for comparison they then a variety of tests with 7 different ammunition types and lots. In one of the tests they omitted testing the A1 variant (no word as to why). All other tests were done with all weapons and variants.
The findings were that a cold weapon fulfills the demands as specified in the original contracts except in the variant G36K A4 and that a weapon that got warm from shooting shows considerable deterioration in accuracy regardless of variant. One has to add here that the original contracts never made any demand regarding the behavior in a heated state. In fact no nation does that. It's only now becoming a thing in Nato because of this.
>>29446420
As reason it was determined that it's not a single component responsible but the whole system. The main factors were:
1) Ammunition: Hit probability differs between types and lots by up to and sometimes even more than 35 percentage points. But just changing the ammo still wouldn't suffice to let the weapons fulfill the demands with shooting induced heat.
2) Temperature of the system: All variants showed deterioration of hit probability. It was stated that due to its construction the G36 gets hot faster than comparison weapons, making heat problems occur earlier regardless of ammunition types and lots.
3) The weapon variant: Depending on weapon variant the hit probability can differ by more than 50 percentage points with the same ammunition lot. One comparison weapon fulfilled the demand even with shooting induced heat, thus showing that in principle it's not a technical impossibility. One has to add here that shortly after this leak a photo of the barrel of that comparison weapon got leaked (pic related). HK then deduced that it must have been the HK416Bw. HK argued that the Bundeswehr had thus compared apples and oranges because of the considerable differences in barrel thickness and that the HK416Bw, which goes under the Bundeswehr name G26, is a light machine gun not an assault rifle.
4) The individual weapon within the same variant: All weapons showed differences in hit probability depending on the individual weapon. Within the same variant individual weapons could differ in hit probability by more than 30 percentage points. They could not determine a systematic relationship between the hit probability and the time of production of the individual weapons.
>>29446420
With regards to changes in climatic conditions it was found that these could induce considerable differences in hit probability. The effect is most pronounced when the weapons undergo a change in ambient temperature from +15°C to +45°C. This was independent from the ammunition. Comparison weapons showed again that it is technically possible to achieve the demands of the original contracts with the added challenge of heat dependent behavior.
A change from dry to humid conditions showed similar effects but it came about much slower than with temperature change.
A one-sided temperature change of the housing through e.g. sunshine just led to a (reversible) change in POI because the resulting housing warps induced a shift between line of sight and bore line.
>>29443830
>>29443797
god damn someone get some ice for that guy you burned
>>29446053
>G36
>G28
>they use all kinds of weapons
But that sounds just about right?
>>29442830
>expecting anything positive here
>>29443286
OH BABY IS THAT A 417
>>29442196
highly doubt that considering germany shills for german companys 24/7 (not saying thats a bad thing I wish we were the same way)
>>29447095
They also use HK416s, various submachine guns, pistols etc.
>>29442568
Here you go, flat-topped G36.
>>29446970
>>29446979
>>29446984
Thanks for digging! So it is indeed a problem of the family.
Last thing I heard about the issue is that the G36 intended for use in Afghanistan will be refitted with the barrels of the LMG variant, which are thicker, to help with the heat problem. Remains to be seen how much improvement that brings, considering the rifle is still mostly plastic.
Have there been comparable tests for the M4/M16 family or the AK series?
>>29442671
which means that in about 10 years the update will have reached half of the units that require it. and the M4 will be so obsolete that it should have been replaced 20 years earlier but will continue in use because it is the cheap option
Also, found this:
youtube com/watch?v=n2E2Vw--wAM&feature=iv&src_vid=3Kl-7XkvROU&annotation_id=annotation_268401343
There is a camera break between the full auto shooting and the hot precision group, but before that guy starts shooting, wisps of smoke can be seen escaping the handbuard around the barrel - that gun is not cold.
Further, news from October 2015 indicate that the testing done before war bullshit, but I could not find an english source, sorry.
...seems like the rifle is pretty solid and gets its job done.
Is it better than the M4? Honestly, who cares?
>>29448297
>>29443830
well, these guys >>29443797 are german
these >>29443286 are norwegian
>>29441657
This for most of the forseeable future, hard to beat the AR all around.
>>29442837
>>29442829
>>29442784
>>29442795
>>29442829
>>29442870
>>29443096
>>29442809
http://youtu.be/gOUKXIrDE0I
>One day anons, one day
>>29448297
>So it is indeed a problem of the family.
We may never know. As I said: only in Germany is this even being discussed. The G36 is being used in over 40 countries, none of which had any complaints of the kind that's in question here. What's more, even in Germany this discussion takes place only in the procurement bureaucracy and the newspapers. The actual users, the Bundeswehr soldiers, never complained about accuracy problems. They only ever had a beef with the stock and the optics. But that got rectified with the later variants.
>Have there been comparable tests for the M4/M16 family or the AK series?
The M4 was once put into question in a similar way, but not quite the same. If I got this right this happened after a battle at Wanat in Afghanistan in which 9 Americans got killed and where they were heavily outnumbered and had to fire a lot of rounds in a short amount of time. Soldiers reported lots of malfunctions under these adverse conditions. Colt then went about doing torture tests. But accuracy was never checked in these tests, only reliability/function.
There's a NYT article which explains this and provides videos of tests of one M4 and one M4A1: http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/m4-and-m4a1-guns/?_r=0
The weapons are fixed and some guy fires them at full auto and changes mags (the M4 got modified to fire full auto for this test). The M4 fails catastrophically after about 1 minute 46 seconds and 535 rounds fired. The M4A1, with its heavier barrel, fails to deliver automatic fire after about 4 minutes 35 seconds and 911 rounds fired. With the M4 you can see the barrel droop some time into the video, so by then accuracy is gone completely.
For more insight into the battle at Wanat read this: http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2010-07/what-really-happened-wanat
>>29448297
For comparison: I know of a post by Jim Schatz, a former decades long emloyee of HK, in the hkpro forum (where he goes by the alias G3Kurz) in which he claims there exists a video of a G36 in a torture test where nine 100 round Beta-C mags are being fired from it without any stoppages. The handguard catches fire after around 500 rounds. I haven't been able to find that video, but from my own experience with the G36 as a German conscript of the late 90s/early 00s I can confirm the exceptional reliability of the rifle. I never had a single malfunction with it. Accuracy was also fine. But I never had to fire that many rounds in such a short amount of time.
I know of no official torture tests with the AK, but when the G36 was put into question HK did their own tests to defend the G36 and for comparison they used AKs, also because with the fallout in the press some claim arose that the AK would be more accurate than the G36. So they pitted the G36A0, A1 and A2 (all together 10 weapons) against one AK47 of East German production and one AKM of ex-Yugoslav production which they had in their own stocks in a scenario called "Einsatznaher Beschusszyklus" (that one is hard to translate). Basically it's an engagement profile used by the Bundeswehr since some time into the Afghanistan mission and is meant to simulate being ambushed so that many rounds in a short time are being fired in a well defined fashion. It is derived from the British Battlefield Mission.
The AKs came out as less accurate than the G36s. It was also noted that after some point the AKs couldn't be properly handled without heat resistant gloves, while handling the G36s was just fine. But the results of this test were also criticised because the weapons weren't being fired from a fixed position to rule out human error but by an actual shooter. In any case according to HK the G36 fulfilled the accuracy requirements under the stressful engagement profile.
>>29441591
Why wouldn't the top rail extend all the way to the end of the handguard? For that matter, why is it (still) raised so far above the changing handle?
Looks like you could mount a peq up front and an optic on top without janky risers do it has that going for it... Grip and stock modularity probably aren't an issue for the military, but it would piss me off to not be able to change my grip to something more comfortable.
>>29441591
Those complaining about the rails being high, do you think this looks better? Shitty paint job but it gets the idea across.
>>29449602
I guess the cheek rest is too high here but cba fixing that
>>29449467
so you can actually stick your hand in there and so the rail height isnt retarded compared to the stock
>>29449204
German away, I'm German myself. But I was not drafted and thanks to some in hindsight minor police trouble I never had a chance to experience the G36 myself. Can't say I'd like to be a soldier anymore, but I'm still a shooter and maintain my interest in firearms.
Thanks again for the digging, I rarely have the time and suitable internet at hand.
>>29449467
>>29449682
something something thick winter gloves
>>29449706
Ah, then you might be interested in HK's own report in full which is, of course, in German:
http://www.heckler-koch.com/de/presse/detail.html?tx_z7protecteddownloads_pi1%5Bfile%5D=Sturmgewehr_G36_Technischer_Untersuchungsbericht_16.12.2013.pdf
>>29449790
Indeed, this will take me quite some time. Thanks!
>>29442870
Are you sure you're in the military there kid? I don't think they let autists in.
>>29450543
>I don't think they let autists in.
It's like you were never in the military, I'm not saying the guy from above is either, but I know quite a few spergs with a .mil e-mail.
>>29450543
Explain this then
>>29450575
I never said I was.
Reading comprehension is key here so read slowly if you have to autismo
>>29443286
It can fold to the side and is modular
>>29450681
Wrong image?
>>29442784
The fuck is careless ammo?
>>29442755
The next weapon the USA adopts in large numbers is probably going to be the LSAT.
The thing is really impressive and unlike the G11 it isn't ridiculously complicated.
[spoiler]it's still complicated though[/spoiler]
>>29451090
>google it
>>29451058
>Finland
>not full of autists
>>29450543
>I don't think they let autists in
THEN WHO WAS NAVY?
*spooky theremin sting*
