*From Your Quora Digest*
>What should replace the M-16 and M-4 in U.S. Military service?
"The H&K 416.
Still centered around the NATO 5.56 cartridge, however, it is more accurate and reliable then the FN/Colt M16/M4 family of rifles. It needs considerably less cleaning and continues to work when caked in mud and grime, unlike the current platform. It also eliminates carbon buildup in the chamber.
On a semi related note, I personally think we need to start rethinking how we maneuver and suppress, as the USMC's H&K IAR as well as the XM25 utilized by the Army are, imho, game changers."
What do you guys think about this?
is there any interesting innovation in the hk 416 at all? it's just a piston ar right?
>Build an M4 on steroids
>German """""Engineering"""""
>all h&k products mentioned
S H I L L
>>29365171
It's based heavily off of an earlier design which strongly influenced the Taiwanese piston AR's
>>29365171
this. how is this any different than a piston ar?
sexy af
>>29365171
>piston AR
Do you mean ar-18?
>>29365218
No, I mean a pistonized AR-15
An AR-18's internal design is actually well thought out.
>>29365203
Non removable rails are useless. Adds weight, they get worn out from use and your regular GI wont have anything to mount on them. Should have kept regular plastic ones.
>>29365167
>carbon buildup
>chamber
Except that doesn't happen with a stoner gas system. Excess gas is vented out the gas key. The same amount of gas and buildup is present in the chamber of literally any semi-automatic rifle dumbass.
>IAR
>game changer
Top kill yourself
I was reading few years ago that France is considering that rifle as replacement for FAMAS.
>>29365235
>Rails get worn out
>hurr durr
(You)
>>29365167
A select fire AR15 with sturdy M-lok free-float rail and fancy coated or treated bcg in my opinion.
>>29365243
I think the majory candidates (416, SCAR-16, ARX) were trialed during Mali and CAR operations. Supposedly - and this is just rumour of course - the SCAR-16 was almost immediately dropped from contention when troop feedback started coming in.
>>29365180
It costs more because Kraut spess magic.
That HK is a a heavier and more expensive solution of nonexistent issue, if we're talking about rifle for ordinary forces.
>>29365268
Yeah, the HK seems great on paper until it comes to actually using it in the field. A heavy, poorly put together weapon that doesn't perform better than current service weapons.
The HK416 is marginally better than an AR-15. Not better enough to justify the price tag. It's not a smartgun firing caseless magic ammo, it's not a portable railgun, it's not a laser rifle or a desintegrator, it's just a well made intermediate caliber carbine.
>>29365167
The US needs to go to either a bullpup or something with a folding stock. Then they can go back to using 16in, or better, 20 in barrels.
>>29365287
Bullpups are shit, only good on paper and in theory
>>29365302
t. never fired a bullpup
>>29365167
>What do you guys think about this?
Should of gone with the vastly superior XM8
>inb4 memes
>>29365313
Shill harder, bullpups are a fad with no significant advantages that obsolete the AR15
t. different Guy who trained with bullpups
>>29365337
>fad
>Steyr AUG has been around for over 30 years
>>29365286
>build G11
>"Fuck off with your Caseless Ammo design, we dont want your Kraut space magic"
>build 416
>"HAHAHA OH WOW its fucking nothing"
>>29365167
416 is just a really expensive way of doing an AR, no point in spending all that money to get the same thing again.
>>29365203
I agree with the other guy, quad-rails are -so- 2006.
>>29365243
It sure is better than the F1
>>29365254
I'm going to guess the SCAR was dropped because it's expensive and the French hate spending money on their military.
>>29365252
This, to be honest famicom.
LSAT
>>29365337
Dude, are you stupid?
Just because you 'trained' with bullpups and didn't like them doesn't mean that they are bad.
They have clear advantages.
>>29365331
>literally a fish shaped G36
>better than an AR
Nah.
>>29365283
I wouldn't say it's poorly put together, rather that it's just way more expensive than it needs to be.
>>29365302
>>29365337
You're probably from France or Bongistan, therefore your input on bullpups is limited in value.
>>29365361
>implying the G11 was ready for production
>implying the last prototype was even a remotely practical weapon
>implying it didn't produce shit ballistics
It was some really impressive mechanics, and probably the best proof of concept of a caseless rifle to date, but the G11 as we knew it was never going to be adopted by anyone.
>>29365167
It's an OK gun, makes the absolutely simplest changes to dramatically increase reliability, yet sticks closely to the original script. Also it's expensive as fuck.
It's perfect for a goverment contract.
>>29365171
>is there any interesting innovation in the hk 416 at all?
apparently the gun doesn't get hot in certain areas where the average ar does. It's still a piece of shit and you should get a kac sr15 if you're looking for real innovation in an ar15
>>29365203
is that a us palm ar grip? I'm thingken of getting one for my ar since I have one on my ak.
>>29365361
What I want to say is that the 416 while surely being an excellent assault rifle offers no huge benefits over a standard M4. It's better, but it's not like it's a whole new technology that would allow you to, let's say, replace two riflemen with only one rifleman. The military might just as well keep the same rifle as they have now and invest the money on other support weapons, vehicles or electronics.
>>29365666
Here's an article about what it offers more than you standard AR-15: http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk417-hq/149804-technical-reasons-why-hk-416-mr-556-superior-ar-15-design.html
>>29365639
>dramatically increase reliability
[citation needed]
C'mon /k/, we all know that the ARX is far superior
>>29365750
>forumpost on the H&K fanboy site
I'm sure that's a nuanced and objective piece of writing.
>inb4 that one .gif
>>29365287
There are no good bullpups around.
US military and citizens in general are accustomed with conventional rifles. Bullpup would be universally hated. Introducing gun which can't win trust of the user is a mistake.
>>29365666
Paying 2000$ for a KAC™ sticker
>>29365858
AUG, M17S, F2000
>>29365858
>There are no good bullpups around.
Well thats not true. What about Steyr AUG A3?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9zDTP0LZRw
>>29365639
It does nothing to solve main problems of the AR-15 reliability.
>>29365945
There is no problem with the AR's reliability.
No. It's heavier and more complicated. The m4a1+ will deliver a superior rifle
>>29365171
There's some nice shit. The barrel last stupid long. Literally 60k. But it's not worth price and weight.
>>29365203
Very true
>>29365235
>what is gl
>what is a peq15
>what is a surefire light
>what is a foregrip for thumb break shooting or hybrid stance
Infantryman here, you're a cunt
>>29365929
Mild lefties problem.
Toy trigger.
Retarded safety lever.
It not like problems can't be eventually solved but there is no out of the box bullpup which can stand flawlessly against M4.
>>29365167
Not you again Larry!
>>29365235
>M-LOK?
>M-LOK!
>b. Improved extended forward rails: The improved extended forward rails shall provide for a MIL-STD-1913 compatible rail that is fixed at the 12 o'clock position, with numbered attachment points. The rail must also provide for the attachment of modular, MIL-STD-1913 enabler(s) attaching capability on the hand guard. The improved extended forward rails shall provide for a hand guard allowing for a free-floated barrel, and for a design/redesign of the under-barrel weapon systems/module interface to use the MIL-STD-1913 compatible rail surface on the hand guard as the attachment point(s), instead of the barrel.
>>29365929
>thumbnail
>wth is this
>open pic,bottom left is text
>its SKS inna woods?
Not sure how to feel about this...
>>29365167
It's probably better than the M4 but not enough to justify the price. Also piston being more reliable is a meme, you'd get the same level of reliability with a similarly priced DI.
if they were both ultra cheap, the piston is probably going to be more reliable
Isn't the HK416 simply an AR-15 with G36-ish piston, but which was heavily based on the AR-18's piston?
So it's simply just another Stoner AR just that it's made in Germoney to satisfy the Wehrboos?
>>29369671
Yup. It's just a Kraut AR-18 with a dash of spess mugick
>>29365167
Guys
guys
Listen
Okay listen here
I have a wonderful plan
Are you ready?
ok
so
you listening?
just think about this
What if...
the M4...
was replaced...
by a gun...
that doesn't jam if one grain of sand gets into the receiver?
How can I get the 416 aesthetic
>>29365612
and disadvantages
>>29365167
Reminds me of the All American from New Vegas.
>>29370272
>>29370426
>implying that's a meme
M4s and M16s are pretty shit
>>29370272
Why would a grain of sand get in the receiver unless you're a moron?
>>29365167
>Quad-Rails
>>29372497
When will be graduate up to Quint Rails?
>>29365167
HK416
HK all the way!
>>29365167
All they need to do is slightly update the at like the Canadians did, give it the cold weather improvements and check if there is anything that can be done to increase performance in hot sandy environments
I'll stick with the 16, thanks
>>29365869
>Paying $4000 for the HK sticker
>>29365203
This is an airsoft gun m8s, very well replicated anyway.
>>29370287
I don't think that's a true 416, I think it's an American or Canadian made clone
>>29365869
> Implying poorfag implications
>>29365167
I don't think it should replace the m4/m16, unless the US govt can get a heavy discount.
Even then, the modern m4/m16 is fine. The 416 is cool, but its noting revolutionary. It's just a piston AR with a rather exorbitant price tag. It's good for SPECOPS guys where it's easier to get a suppressor to work reliably, and its better at draining water.
But your average soldier isn't really doing amphibious assault or mounting suppressors. So what's really the point of spending hundreds of millions of dollars for something no one will need?
Then agai, I would have bought an mr556 if I had the money.
>>29365929
barf
>>29365242
No it's not. I shot 700 rounds I'm my pof and the chamber and BCG was hardly dirty. Every time I clean the M16s after gunshooys the BCG is filthy and the firing pin is slugish and has to be slammed out
>>29374714
Ignor the spelling errors I'm drunk and have ape thumbs.....mainly the ladder
>>29372375
>zero evidence to support this
>Build new production AR-18
>Add rails and other improvements
>Reform DoD(?) and give finger to lobbyists(?)
>Call it a day
We solved the problem. I think.
>>29374790
>what are stress tests
Can confirm that portions of USMC have already started receiving h&k
>>29365167
Just look up the military solicitation for the M4A1 plus. Free float, 12 inch +/- 1 inch rail, removable front & rear iron sights, 5 inch mean accuracy at 300m through out barrel life, a better flash suppressor, a better trigger, and sand colored.
>>29375284
I like the sound of that.
>>29375284
Ah the one I forgot: Weigh less than 8 lbs unloaded.
http://soldiersystems.net/2015/03/14/us-army-working-on-m4a1plus-seeks-ndi-improvements-for-carbine/
>>29372375
>I've never handled an M16: the post
>>29375227
Cite them.
>>29365167
>>29351930
We already have this thread.
![Modernized-Howa-Type-891-660x434[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ow9GC5h.jpg "Modernized-Howa-Type-891-660x434[1].jpg")
>>29374977
So you want the Howa Type 89 upgrade?
>>29365666
Real innovation... Like what chuckle fuck?
>>29365167
I'm not going to read the thread but replacing the M4 is pointless without a new bullet, so a progressive change with new bolts, charging handles, and free floated handguards is a better idea. maybe make the magpul CTR or STR buttstock and the MOE grip standard as well, and add those features as new rifles come in. That would be a lot more realistic than trying to introduce an entirely new rifle to the supply chain.
also short stroke rifles with inline buffers are retarded.
>>29375340
My mom told me the procurement cost per Type 89 was the equivalent of 10K USD thanks to Japanese corruption.
>>29375227
>continue to parrot shit with no evidence
>>29365167
I used the 416 when I was a conscript, its def better than the m16 and m4. The question is, is it so much better you can justify spending million replacing old AR's. It really isnt, the newest 416's are sexy as fuck, and have a lot of upgrades, but its not enough to replace already working rifles. Look at Norway, they had the (a)G3, old weapon, too big caliber, heavy weapon and not up to date. They needed an upgrade.
But I know a lot of SOF's get these, or the colt c8.
>>29375319
>>29376986
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272724
No.
>>29378628
>breaks after 25k rounds
>after being dragged in the dirt
>this is considered bad
>>29365243
The vfg hold is triggering me
>>29365167
ARX.
I like the ARX. It is nice and Baretta is a pretty cool guy. Eh uses 5.56 NATO and doesn't afraid of anything.
You people are all silly as fuck. As someone that's actually been hands on with the HK 416, as well as the Sig 516, and many many "DI" AR-15's, the 416 has nothing to offer.
The plane of the top rail is even higher over the bore than other AR's, meaning that your standard optic mounts such as ACOG's and Aimpoints are going to provide you fuck all chance of a cheek weld, without new special nonstandard mounts. It also requires special height BUIS.
It's less modular than an AR15 thanks to proprietary parts, and it's heavier for no reason.
Why are there so many "AR vs. X" threads going on /k/ right now, and why doesn't anyone actually seem to know what the fuck they're talking about when it comes to ARs
>>29365167
I would love a replacement weapon but here's the problem.
1. The DoD operates like a bussiness sad but true
With this in mind we have to look at 2 factkrs.
1a. It's pretty well known that America has one of the best military forces in the world (the best arguably)
2a. With point 1a in mind congress will look at it like this, if the ground pounders can pacify an area then they will just hurr derr bomb it. Even though in many situations this is the wrong choice.
so you have to ask is replacing all service rifles really worth the cost? In the eyes of Congress
Could these weapons accomplish something that a bombing run could not, obviously anyone with even the slightest education on warfare will sat yes but this is not congress. They are uneducated in the principals of warfare and how to accomplish objectives. Congress will look at it as such
It will cost x amount to replace all rifles DoD wide, the rifles will cost y amount in annual maintaince and will last z amount of time.
If x is greater than the sum of z and y then it simply won't happen unless congress needs too hurr see equip our troops with the best availible for hurr derr reasons.
Just how I think about it.
>>29365286
>Not better enough to justify the price tag
This very attitude has held back small arms improvement in the military for half a century now. GJ sacrificing GI's lives over small savings in taxpayer's money. Keep waiting for portable high energy lasers tunable from stun to kill forever.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Schatz.pdf
>>29378946
Small arms don't score kills. Small arms have virtually never scored kills. Unless a major improvement is made in small arms technology that warrants the massive price tag of
Procuring the weapons
Retooling to work on the weapons
Retraining armorers to work on the weapons
Retraining grunts to use the weapons
Retraining the DIs to train the grunts on the weapons
Procuring the different ammo if needed
Procuring the different mags if needed
We will not do it. The closest thing we have is the LSAT program and caseless/telescoping ammo.
If we gave all US infantry in Desert Storm M1 Garands, the outcome would've been identical.
>>29374790
Not that guy and not claiming his grain of sand bs, but the AR-15 does have issues which, according to one of its designers, James Sullivan, were never properly solved:
"Our earlier “bad choices,” (the light weight buffer, weak extractor spring, thin cartridge rim and no chromed chamber), made those problems worse, but, except for the chromed chamber, all of the problems and causes would be cured by going back to the IMR cartridge the gun was designed for. [...] But the Army argued that it had already stockpiled 100 million rounds of Ball powder ammo and it would take months to fill the pipeline and replace it. Congress investigated and issued the Ichord Committee report finding mostly the Army at fault in “that the failure on the part of officials with authority in the Army to cause action to be take to correct the deficiencies of the 5.56 mm ammunition borders on criminal negligence.” [See page 5370 of the Ichord Committee Report].
I wish I could say that Stoner or Fremont or myself saved the day, but Colt’s Chief Product Engineer, Foster Sturtevant, solved the problems with a heavier buffer assembly having a plurality of inertial masses acting in delayed sequence to oppose bolt rebound. It slowed the cycle back down, reduced the bolt carrier bounce that caused light strike misfires and gave the cartridge time to loosen up in the chamber so it extracted better. Furthermore, it was a simple change allowing riflemen to just change buffers in the field. Another simple fix by Colt designer Bob Roy was to add a rubber plug inside the extractor spring to increase spring force. These cures got the Army off the hook and allowed them to keep using Ball powder ammo.
Although those cures have proven to be good sound improvements, Ball powder is still not compatible with the M16 and should never have been issued for that weapon. It fouls the gas system and wears out the piston rings."
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=2772
>>29365345
AR has been around even longer
>>29379086
>Small arms don't score kills. Small arms have virtually never scored kills.
(You)
>>29375284
>>29375298
How is your dream M4A1+ build looks like?
>>29370287
>>29374533
Coharie Arms CA-415, according to imfdb.
>>29379237
Nice article.
>>29365167
The HK 416 is better and it isn't. It's the same basic manual of arms, and it has proven more reliable in army tests, but that data is debatable, because the idiots didn't know how the first clutch works on the m16, and the hk416s had new factory mags, the m4/m16s were using base GI mags that have been used and reused in harsh conditions for years.
also the 416 is heavier and it would require training for the new piston system, and with that new piston system brings the issue of spare parts costs, because none of that shit is standardized in the current DI m4 armory. The lowers are interchangeable parts wise, but the uppers are not.
>needs less cleaning
Sure I guess
>m4 doesn't work when caked in mud and grime
The DI system is more sensitive to build up and dirt, but its way more rugged than people give it credit for.
If I was the army and had spare funds, I would look into placing some small orders for select units. But replace the m4 entirely? Not really worth it. Just buy some new mags and fresh uppers. Way less money, just as capable for the average soldier
>>29379984
Also
>more accurate
Not so sure about that one...
>HK
Never ever
>>29376932
Well how ya like that.
>>29365167
The HK-416 isn't enough of an improvement over the the M16 and M4 to warrant issuing it to anyone but special forces, with the exception of the M27 IAR.
The rest of the US military will make do with their current rifles until issuing an OICW-style weapon becomes practical.
>>29365361
G11 died because the Cold War ended and there suddenly wasn't funding or a real need for such a weapon.
>>29365167
I love the idea of owning a HK416 but christ, they cost an arm, a leg, and your first born child.
>>29365254
I'm beginning to feel genuinely sorry for the Mk.16 SCAR. Can't seem to get a real military purchase anywhere beyond a few token units
>>29365235
Fuck the haters. You are absolutely correct with the exception of the top rail for optics.
>>29365331
>Should have gone with vastly superior XM8
Dolled-up G36 with a higher price tag, proprietary rails, and no vast or even improvement to the firepower and capabilities of the modern American infantryman
>no memes
A F U C K I N G
F F I S H
U I
C S
K H
I
N
G
>>29365929
>Steyr AUG meant to replace ARs on the battlefield
>Literally replaced by an AR derivative
New Zealand isn't exactly the final word in /k/dom, but come on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdOE65hxvRQ
>>29365167
>replace AR with AR that has more expensive complicated system.
GUYS THIS IS A GOOD IDEA I SWEAR!
>>29365167
>still no man-portable chemical railguns
