Carry Ammo
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You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
What ammo do you fags trust your life to? Need to make a decision on what I buy today, I carry a .45
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo
>>29345463
Don't get caught up in kike hype.
"It's better to hit with a BB, than miss with a cannon".
WT Sherman
For .45 I carry 230gr Gold Dots
In 9mm I carry 124gr HST
Based on nothing but my personal taste?
3 best are gold dot, SXT and HST.
After that, pdx.
Now that I own sigs I carry sig ammo because I issues. It's okay I guess... sort of hate myself for it.
Only ammo I'll call garbage is hydrashock and xm855 from American Eagle.
Got a Glock 30s yesterday. Shot some Magtech 230 grain out of my ten round mag today and had a jam. Not quite a full stovepipe, I pulled back on the slide and it chambered the round. Tried to replicate the problem by completely limp wristing the next magazine, no issues. Any ideas? Over lubrication, cheap ammo, magazine break in?
>>29347096
>not quite a stovepipe
So it ejected but didn't push the next round out of the magazine?
Until it does it again, I'd call it break in period.
>>29347635
I didn't take much time to look at it like I wish I had now, but it about halfway pushed the next round from the magazine. The magazines themselves are very stiff so I figured it could just be that. I can't get a full 10 rounds in them yet.
>>29347714
>yet
I'm gonna say you were limp wristing.
>>29347727
I really wasn't. Like I said, I fired a magazine afterwards while purposefully limp wristing as much as I could and couldn't replicate the issue. Thanks for your input though
>>29345463
115 gr FMJ 9mm same cheap shit I use at the range. I think shot placement matters, ammo doesn't.
>>29349118
>>29349118
I do this too, though I like to use 125 grain NATO spec ammo when I can. I feel like a bullet expanding twice its size in an incapacitating area doesn't do significantly more than a bullet that doesn't expand at all in an immediate incapacitating effect (other than helping the victim maybe bleed out a little faster). I also feel that a bullet expands twice its size in the CNS or heart will do the same as a bullet that doesn't expand in that same area. I haven't seen any scientific research that would suggest otherwise. I also feel that this really only applies to pistols as their expansion/terminal effects are fairly lackluster compared to rifle rounds.
Does anyone have any evidence or study to suggest otherwise?
>>29349287
i think that a bullet going into you farther would hurt / do more damage than a bigger hole not traveling as far. also fmj probably penetrate thin barriers a lot better.
>>29347714
So, a failure to feed?
Which is nothing like a stovepipe.
>>29349336
Oh yeah, that's always a plus with FMJ. I'm talking from a purely terminal ballistics effect, however. I'm under the opinion that whenever a well made HP would kill an FMJ would also kill while whenever an HP would wound an FMJ would also wound just slightly less.
It really just seems like HP is really only necessary if you're very concerned about over penetration.
40SW
180g Speer Gold Dot
45Auto
230g Gold Dot
9mm
124g Gold Dot
>In before fanboy.
>Shot placement is the only thing that matters
>Carries FMJ's
>In 9mm
If shot placement is the only thing that matters you're going to want larger diameter impacts so that your shots actually affect the important areas rather than hoping that a 9mm line will strike perfectly.
Just admit that you're fucking cheap.
I carry 124g XTP 9mm +P from underwood. Sweet little round
>>29349528
i am fucking cheap but I do have a couple boxes of hollow points that I got just to try. I still carry fmj for penetration and because I think they will behave more like I am used to (since that's what I practice with).
>>29349567
Go for head shots I guess
>>29349528
The probability a HP getting to the CNS/Heart while an FMJ misses seems pretty low.
115gr Speer gold dot, regular pressure not +p
.
feels just like shooting target loads, easy to get back on target.
my carry is a sub-compact and I don't like the "snap" that +p does to smaller guns.
Probably will switch them out for 124 grains once winter comes back around and people start wearing heavier clothes.
>>29349287
>>29349336
>>29349388
you guys have no idea how terminal ballistics work
you want the bullet to dump all of its kinetic energy as quickly as possible. a bullet is not going to underpenetrate
the whole point of hollow points is that they more effectively dump their kinetic energy into the target, creating a much bigger temporary wound cavity, which is a big factor in stopping power and lethality. you're liquefying a lot more tissue with HP bullets.
a shot to the liver with hollowpoints will kill a man without immediate medical attention, FMJ's effect will be so-so
>>29345463
Hey /k/ I've never been here so I'm sorry if this is a lame question but I saw this photo on the main page. Which of OP's is the correct one? Or are they all just variants and in which sense would you use one over another? Just a curious anon.
>>29349700
i don't want to kill people i want to stop them
>>29349700
>KE dump
>the liver is a vital organ
If I shoot a 300 win mag into someone wearing XSAPI plates he should theoretically die because "muh KE dump"? Meanwhile the same 300 win mag sailing through a man's skull transferring only a small part of its KE should render the man only slightly dazed according to "muh KE dump" theory. Either you destroy tissues/structures or you don't. It shouldn't matter if you're shooting a 40mm grenade through a person or a 40mm bofors round, if they are both going to poke a 40mm hole in a person then KE seems irrelevant does it not?
>>29349567
>they will behave more like I am used to
Correct anon.
You're used to poking holes in paper.
In a defensive situation youre not shooting a paper target. You need a bullet thats optimized for tissue damage. Sure, if you shoot well the bullet doesn't matter. An FMJ in the heart or spine will kill just as quick as a hollowpoint. You cannot garauntee that kind of shooting though because again....youre not shooting paper targets.
Aside from that, overpenetration is a real concern. You whip out your piece and smoke Jamaal who's trying to rob you, but accidentally hit Judy the schoolteacher after your bullet whizzes through Jamaal's skinny frame, and you're going to be in a world of shit.
>>29349716
Sight image 3 is the correct one.
>>29349811
then you shouldn't be carrying a gun.
enjoy your aggravated assault charge and civil case. theres a reason you never ever fire warning shots. if you pull your gun, you need to be prepared to kill
>>29349816
in a self defense situation, shot placement will be iffy, no matter how much you've trained. the liver is a vital organ if you're shot in it. an HP will do enough damage even if it doesn't hit the hepatic portal vein to make someone bleed out in minutes. the tissue shock damage from the temporary cavity can kill someone in minutes even if you empty the entire mag and hit nothing vital. thousands of tiny capillaries and venules are ruptured with each temporary cavity, and you can bleed out in a minute just from this.
counting your life on hitting something important, when you'll be jittery because you're being bumrushed/shot at, and the guy attacking you will have so much adrenaline he won't feel whats hitting him seems dumb.
also, a 40mm bofors would blow a person apart compared to an equivalent grenade.
fill some jell-o with various fruit, shoot it with an air rifle. use a 5mm BB and then use one of the .177 HP hunting slugs and let me know which one did more damage
>>29349118
>>29349287
FMJ is not as sage to shoot. There's a real chance of penetration and ricochet chance is also improved.
Hollow points give plenty of penetration. They're specifically designed to give the ideal amount of penetration.
FMJ is what poor dumb ghetto bangers carry because it's cheaper.
Even if hollow points offered no terminal benefits over FMJ, those would still be reason enough for many to carry it but the truth is that it does generate a much harsher wound channel and will facilitate faster bleed out time which is good if you needed to shoot someone.
If you didn't need to shoot them, you shouldn't have.
>>29349605
They expand enough to roughly double their diameter. That quadruples the surface area.
The difference is huge.
>>29349811
Call an ambulance, because the process that results in the latter also risks the former.
>>29349994
agreed on all counts
>>29349846
That's not entirely true.
Sight picture 3 is "combat" style sights. sigs use these.
Glocks use the sight image 2.
>>29349994
Just beat me to posting this. Also add in for >>29349816
that fmj can penetrate through, hitting a person that had nothing to do with who you are shooting
>>29349716
I prefer sight image 2 called point of aim = point of impact.
Bulls eye shooters prefer their target to not be obscured be the sights, because they shoot small targets, and go with image 1 called a 6 o'clock hold.
Finally image 3 is a "combat " sight picture where the front post totally obscures point of impact. Sigs come with this sight picture. With a Sig, if you used number 2 image your bullet would be about a half in low within defensive ranges.
Do to answer your question, they are different styles. 2 is probably most common, followed by 3 and 1 is pretty rare. The most important thing is how they show the front sight relative to the rear, notice it's the same for all of them.
>>29350139
ok but in case 1 how do you know how low to hold it? seems stupid it me.
>>29350163
You don't, you get new sights because the ones youve got are fucked up.
>>29345708
>"It's better to hit with a BB, than miss with a cannon"
I'll take frangible and explosive rounds for 500, Alex.
>>29350346
are you shooting raufoss from your handgun?
>trusting your life to one round
pathetic.
>>29349994
I agree HP will likely decrease the bleed out time, however if you're talking over a minute for a self defense situation it seems like your adversary will either be able to inflict his force against you anyways or it wouldn't have mattered if he died in 3 minutes versus 5 or 6 minutes.
Jello's elasticity doesn't doesn't match human tissue elasticity very much, though. Naturally the round that produces enough of a temporary cavity to completely overcome a tissue's elastic force holding it together would be better, but handgun rounds and most rifle rounds do not do this to any significant extent. Considering what Fackler found with his results on 7.92x57 FMJ versus 9mm FMJ it seems like they do the same thing in terms of permanent tissue damage.
>>29350024
I understand everything about over penetration. I'm saying if you don't expect someone to jump between you and anyone else you don't care about shooting it should be a non-issue.
>>29350054
Again, what is the statistical probability increase of a .70 expanded 9mm versus a .380 or .4 (for the minimal fmj expansion) against an object the size of the CNS zone or the size of a heart?
>>29350137
I've literally already said HP's seem to be a non-issue except for concerns of over penetration.
>>29350380
>I understand everything about over penetration. I'm saying if you don't expect someone to jump between you and anyone else you don't care about shooting it should be a non-issue.
The point is, that even if the differences are small carrying hollow points is safer and more brutal at the same time. It's better. Maybe you're right and it's only miniscule amount, it's still better. That means if you choose to carry FMJ because you can save $5 on your carry ammo (literally the difference between white box FMJ and HP) then you're a ghetto ass poor fag.
I stand by my previous assertion.
>>29350163
It's for expert bulls eye shooters, probably hand loading and who know their gun very well. Consider them power users. 6 o'clock is not something I want or recommend.
It came about, as I understand it, because they were shooting tiny targets and the front post would obscure what they were trying to hit, decreasing their ability to be accurate. The answer was to move the front post out of the way. It just shoots a matter of degrees high at that point and it's as consistent as any other sight picture.
>>29350466
makes sense.
>>29350429
but if penetration is your preference then fmj might be the way to go. like if you have to shoot though a car windshield or a thin door.
>>29350380
>comparing 177gr@2500 fps to 147gr@950 fps
you posted a pic of a hollow point 9mm doing only just marginally less damage than an 8mm mauser rifle round, so if anything you proved my point. hollow points do damage in a way FMJ can't in pistol rounds. you're not getting yaw with pistol rounds, which is why that pic shows nothing besides the fact that a 9mm JHP will make a wound cavity comparable to 8mm mauser at the peak of its tumble, but inches inside the body, where you want it.
you don't get it, the temporary wound cavity immediately disrupts nerves, and causes an immediate rise, then drop in blood pressure. this alone can send you into shock. a big temporary wound cavity just inside the chest wall will collapse a lung, bruise the heart, and possibly rupture the aorta - within half a second. a good HP round will do things far and above what an FMJ could do in a self-defense scenario.
>>29350429
What if you're concerned with shooting through a windshield or a couch/furniture in your house and not so much about hitting something outside? Wouldn't FMJ be the better round in that situation? I really don't care about how much the rounds cost but if HP's are really as much of a better bullet as everyone shills them to be.
>>29350545
The 9mm dumped all of its KE while the 8mm round almost dumps nearly half at the yellow 30 cm mark assuming it does so linearly. So is damage a function of KE dump or is it a function of tissue removal? If the 8mm is dumping half of its KE by the yellow 30cm mark (depth of a human torso) and the 9mm is dumping all of its KE. The mauser round has 6.57 times the kinetic energy despite barely outperforming a 9mm HP round by the way.
>hydrostatic shock
>in a pistol round
Fuddlore alert.
>>29350740
you're comparing
9mm HOLLOW POINT
to
8mm FULL METAL JACKET
the mauser round DOES NOT EFFECTIVELY TRANSMIT ITS KINETIC ENERGY TO THE TARGET. THE KE IS PUT INTO THE GELATIN OVER A LONGER DISTANCE THAN THE 9MM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8hbkXPdlks
>declares fuddlore
>without disproving
not only are you damaging more tissue with hydrostatic shock by bruising sensitive organs, but the lysed tissue releases free calcium ions that interrupt endothelial VE-cadherins that haven't already been torn, causing surrounding tissues to bleed heavily
>>29350842
>free calcium ions
lol, that's bullshit. ca+ is so reactive it wouldn't make it to the cell next door in any significant quantity.
>>29350740
Any modern hollowpoint in carry ammo will perform as well against most barriers as the FMJ will.
This stuff is purposefully designed to go through shit like glass and dry wall and still function correctly when hitting a meat.
>or a couch/furniture in your house
The fuck is your furniture made of that this would be a problem? Half inch locust planks?
>>29350863
sorry, meant to say proteases, VEcad is calcium-dependent and endocytoses in the presence of proteases
>>29350842
Ok so let me do some basic math for you.
If 8mm has 6.57 times the KE and puts half of it in the same distance as the 9mm puts all of its KE then the 8mm transmitted 3.285 times the KE of the 9mm over a distance of 30cm. So please tell me how 8mm isn't effectively transmitting its KE.
Dr. Fackler has done extensive testing on the subject of hydrostatic shock. Not only do service rifle rounds almost universally fail to hydrostatically damage anything through shock, save the liver, pistol rounds never do it. I advise you to look up his findings on the subject.
>>29350740
>>29350842
>>29350545
also, the 8mm only has the perm cavity it does because it's tumbling.
>>29350924
Couches and wooden desks come to mind. Of course this isn't a concern if you can't afford solid wood.
Protip for anyone lurking or new.
Kinetic energy has literally nothing to do with killing people, and anyone who makes an argument based around it doesn't know shit.
>>29345463
PPU 7.62x38
>>29350932
the liver is 1/3 of the abdominal cavity, it's a pretty big fuckin target
the human chest is around 30cm thick. so you're wasting half of its KE.
you're comparing apples to oranges.
a 147gr 9mm@940fps full metal jacket against a bare human will always be less effective than the exact same round in hollow point.
>>29345463
My department used to issue HST 180gr for our .40's and now issues Critical Duty 175gr. Off duty I carried Critical Duty 135gr +P for my Glock 17 but since having downsized to an M&P 9C and getting my wife a Glock 43, it looks like we'll be switching to HST 124gr standard pressure. There's not a whole lot of junk out there, just avoid gimmicks like Liberty and RIP and you'll be fine. A lot of people still swear by Gold Dots.
I carry 95gr Critical Defense in my Makarov
>>29351069
/conversation
I usually pack Hornady critical defense or critical duty. Or I load my own using XTP's.
>>29351069
>liver
>significant incapacitation target
>I-it doesn't count if the other half of the 8mm's KE is wasted! Apples to oranges! 3.57 times the KE over a distance of 30 cm doesn't equal 3.57 times the damage except when I feel it does!
>literally changing the subject
Holy shit dude. If you can't refute the fact over 30cm of travel through a simulated human torso the 8mm dumps 3.285 times the energy to the target that the 9mm JHP does and only BARELY outperforms. The fact that the 8mm has another 3.285 times the KE does not matter at all. We're talking KE dump over a specified distance as a function of damage.
>>29345463
Federal Hydrashock, 230gr.
>>29350346
Wow you're real fucking smart
185 gr XTPs
wow people post the caliber, saying grain doesn't mean shit if you don't say caliber.
>>29351381
I carry 95gr Critical Defense 9x18 Makarov in my Makarov
>>29351381
you can usually tell what the caliber is just by weight of the bullet
For instance.
>>29351267 this guy has a .45 acp
>>29351371 this guy has a .40 s&w
>>29349666 this guy has a 9mm
Any heavy for caliber bullet that says Gold Dot on it.
>>29351546
Fucking good answer
>>29351524
I know what you're getting at, but the 185g Hornady XTP is a 45. They make 180s for .40 cal. The standard heavy 40s are 180s.
