Seems like a lot of people claim that Russia was subpar in terms of organization and strategy, which led to a large series of reforms. What did Russia do well and do poorly in that conflict? How did the US-trained Georgian military perform?
the war revealed insufficient coherence at the tactical level as well as traditionally weak aspects of russian military such as night operations, reconnaissance, communications, and rear support. georgia's effective use of new-generation sam and radar systems has significantly complicated russian air operations during initial stage of the conflict, which lead to the greater attention to sead
still, it was rapid success. 3 tactical battalion groups have been deployed to south ossetia for counter-assault in a matter of hours. within 3 days, sufficient amount of manpower, vehicles and equipment has been introduced into region with hard natural conditions and defeated equally large force
the reform, initially conducted by the civilian defense minister, had aimed to adopt more mobile and compact brigade structure as opposed to soviet divisions, gradually reduce proportion of conscripts in the army to increase number of contract-based servicemen, import more western equipment from thermals to mistrals, create united special operations command equivalent to british uksf and american sof
since the old minister has been removed due to corruption charges and shoigu took over, number of initiatives is either reversed or pent-up while the main focus has shifted from structural changes to rearmament, re-training and social benefit programs
>>29342820
Yeah nah brah. Georgians are fuckups. I mean, Russia is a fuckupper too but Georgia truly defined fucking up. They did not seal the sole tunnel that the Russians were pushing their troops through when they had the chance. That alone could have stalled the Ruskies long enough for a diplomatic solution. But no. What a fuckup.
>>29341903
Considering how the reform mainly was aimed at reducing the russian military size and restructuring it i'd say it had very little to do with the war with Georgia, apparently it was already planned and attempted in 2003 and they just didn't get around to implement it.
If the reform had been a tactical one it would have been different i suppose.
>>29342820
The Russians performed almost no SEAD throughout the conflict and even after hostilities had ended they didn't know if they had air superiority or not. They also had serious logistical issues for being within 100km of their own border where they had propositioned men and material months ahead of time.
For performing an operation barely outside of their immediate borders, where half the enemy military was out of country, it was a gigantic fuckup.
>>29341903
Mainly:
1.) Bad communications
2.) Inefficient usage of air power
and other issues such as logistics and others.
In any case, the good that did come out of this war - is that is displayed the necessity of reorganization and reforms, results of which we saw in Ukraine and Syria.
>>29342943
>The Russians performed almost no SEAD throughout the conflict and even after hostilities had ended they didn't know if they had air superiority or not.
No, this can't be correct.
Russians actually bombed out most of the Georgian air control network to the point where after the war Georgia had to buy new civilian air traffic radars since Russian air craft destroyed even the civilian air control infrastructure.
Most of Russian air losses were due to friendly fire (Ossetian militia firing MANPADS on Russian Su-24 and Su-25, thinking those are Georgians). The red-on-blue losses were mostly at the start of the war.
By the end of the war, Russian Air Force had complete dominance over Georgian air space, with most of the Georgian air force and air defense systems grounded or captured.
There are lots of photos of Russian specops with captured Georgian Buk-M1 (which Ukraine sold to Georgia).
Coordination was the problem, not SEAD itself.
Here's the definitive account of the 2008 Georgia war.
http://www.cast.ru/files/The_Tanks_of_August_sm_eng.pdf
On Russian air losses:
>Russia lost a total of six aircraft during combat operations of the Five Day War, including one Su-25SM, two Su-25BM, two Su-24M and one Tu-22M3. Of these, two aircraft are known to have been downed by hostile fire, three were probably hit by friendly fire, and the sixth case is uncertain. The wreckage of five aircraft fell within the borders of South Ossetia. Only one, the Su-24M of the 929th State Flight Test Centre, fell in Georgia.
On Russian SEAD missions:
>On August 10-11, the Russian Air Force conducted an operation to disable the Georgian air defense system. By the end of the hostilities, Russian anti-radar missiles had destroyed a 36D6-M fixed military radar at the Shavshebi village near Gori, and two civilian air traffic control radars at the Tbilisi airport and near the Sea of Tbilisi, on Mount Mkhat. A bombing raid on August 8 also damaged a civilian radar at Kopitnari airport. And on August 11, a reconnaissance team of the Russian airborne troops destroyed a P-180U military radar near Poti. All these radars, military and civilian alike, were part of an integrated Georgian airspace monitoring system used by the military. By the time the hostilities ended, the system had been seriously damaged. Some of its main radars had been disabled, and some switched off to prevent them from being hit by anti-radar missiles.
>It appears that none of Georgia’s mobile air defense systems was lost to enemy fire. Most of them were withdrawn deep into Georgia. Two Buk-M1 SAM system launch vehicles, two transport-loaders and several 9M38M missiles were abandoned at the military base in Senaki and seized by Russian troops on August 11. Up to five Osa-AK/AKM SAM system vehicles were seized near Gori.
>>29343593
IADN's are historically terrible.
On the effectiveness of Georgian air defense network
>Initial assessments of the effectiveness of Georgia’s air defense system were clearly exaggerated. They were based solely on the numbers of Russian aircraft lost, with no regard for the causes of those losses. Even though Georgia’s air defense forces possessed such effective SAM systems as the Buk-M1, the OsaAK/AKM and the Spyder-SR, as well as a significant number of MANPADs, they were unable to protect Georgian troops or territory. During the first day of the war, on August 8, Georgia’s air defense system was still intact, and it had radar control of the entire Georgian territory, the separatist provinces and the surrounding areas. Nevertheless, it failed to down even a single Russian aircraft that day, during which Russia’s military aviation flew dozens of sorties, raiding targets not just in the theater of combat operations but deep in Georgian territory as well, using almost exclusively unguided weapons. For example, Marneuli, the main Georgian airbase located more than a hundred kilometers from the conflict zone or from the border with Russia, close to Tbilisi and the Armenian border, was raided three times on August 8. The small groups of Su-25 and Su-24M aircraft that conducted the raids met with no resistance.30 The two (or at the very most, three) aircraft downed by Georgia’s air defenses were all hit in the morning of August 9. From noon on that day and until the end of the war, the Georgian forces were unable to destroy a single Russian aircraft.
>>29343581
>definitive
>.ru
I object.
>>29343623
>I object.
It's fairly balanced and has the best background research I've read on the subject. Plus, it has a foreword by David Glantz and Glantz does quality work.
If you have a better academic account of the war, go ahead and show us.
Unless Wikipedia is your main source...
>>29343641
Glantz is a huge slavboo straight from the cold war, and based on your preface it seems to be a pure defence of the might of the russian armed forces, specially the air side of it.
Reminder it did not even get air superiority. Another reminder that it attacked basically out of nowhere, hence explaining the zero losses on day one.
Yes, sir, i object. It appears to be completely biased, both in language (may have been, unknown, ect, with all the implications), and content (see above)
>>29343669
Oh, and here is an academic source describeing the many, many failures of the russian military as a whole during the operation.
https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.gwu.edu/~ieresgwu/assets/docs/demokratizatsiya%2520archive/GWASHU_DEMO_21_3/T0320R1173M61414/T0320R1173M61414.pdf&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwiPjdPxvdTLAhWBOiYKHfCoDFgQFggSMAI&sig2=Ds4_SoO3stOUeQFcJc8ktg&usg=AFQjCNFXCZBdF2Ac-gYc6v0E2h4IEEXt5w
>>29343686
>Oh, and here is an academic source describeing the many, many failures of the russian military as a whole during the operation.
That paper of yours has 5-6 pages on the 2008 Georgia war and is pretty superfluous. It just has a bunch of general statements, without actually going into any of the details of Russian operations.
It does not refute any of the points I quoted about Russian air dominance and it is written by a political commentator, not a military analyst.
Don't waste my time with that drivel.
Holy shit, I googled this Athena Bryce-Rogers. She worked for Stratfor.
Aha-ha-ha-ha!
You should be ashamed for bringing George Friedman and his amateur hour preppies into this discussion.
>>29343709
>attacking the source
So a clear, consise, and heavily sourced document describeing in detail what happened post war due to the failures, and straight from an academic institution is "drivel"...yet your glossy over representation of the RUAF "actions" straight from russia is completly acceptable and indeed, definitive.
Mmkay friendo, go be a slavboo elsewhere. If you wanna troll, then my statement of the RUAF inability to get airspace control over a country without an airforce is all i need.
It was fucking pathetic, and the ru goverment agrees with its actions of reform post war.
>be russia
>lose strategic bomber to backwater shithole using 70s vintage slavshit
pick two
One shudders to think what a slaughter of slav flies there would have been if Georgia had Patriots or even some later variant of the Hawk.
>>29343732
Here we see a shill unable to take criticism
>>29343732
>a slavshill attacking a source he does not like, but one he specifically asked for
Wow, this was not expected at all!
The samefriend responding is a sad, sad man.
I guess in his world David Glantz is a nobody. I don't think there is anything else to discuss here.
The quotes I provided speak for themselves. That's what happened to Georgian and Russian forces.
If you can't take the facts, that's not my problem.
>>29343784
>people call me out
>OH GOD THEY ARE ALL THE SAME GUY!
You are a dumbass, and a terrible shill.
Go attack sources on reddit or whatever shithole your from. It wont work here.
>>29343784
>>29343784
Your "facts" are laughable. The very real fact that they dont meet up with the very real reality of the post Georgia war reforms, is all i need.
You are a worthless slavshill, and will forever be one unless you unfuck yourself.
And glantz is a slavboo.
>>29343486
>By the end of the war, Russian Air Force had complete dominance over Georgian air space, with most of the Georgian air force and air defense systems grounded or captured.
And yet they were taking fire throughout the operation and aircraft were downed on the final day of hostilities. The VVS never thought it had air superiority, and the communication between ground and air forces was abysmal to the point where they were running two separate campaigns independent of each other.
>>29343855
SHHHH.
Reality is trumped by his "facts".
DELETE THIS.
>>29343581
>three were probably hit by friendly fire
Georgia did not have an airforce.
This is such bullshit.
Hell, even if it was not, and the dumbass slavmonkeys were splashing their own aircraft, that is incompetence exemplified.
>>29343898
Of the 6 aircraft downed, it's said that 3 were downed by friendly fire and 3 by Georgian action.
>>29343916
According to his source, one is "unknown".
