So would the Klingon bat'leth actually make for an effective weapon?
>>29275029
>Heavy weight
>Awful reach
>Awkward handling
Yes, you should use it for home defense.
>>29275066
I was thinking more like if you pitted someone wielding a broadsword like pic related against someone wielding a bat'leth would the bat'leth be an effect melee weapon or are bat'leths something that wouldn't actually be effect in real life combat?
>>29275420
A broadsword has a much much greater reach than a bat'leth, which means that for most of the fight the guy with the bat'leth wouldn't be able to do anything but block strikes.
Keep in mind that the bat'leth wasn't designed with effectiveness in mind, it was created to be an unusual and intimidating weapon wielded by an intimidating species of warriors. It's not very practical at all though.
>>29275029
>heavy
>requires two hands a fair distance apart
>practically no reach
I mean it'd be great for blocking but it's no polearm. That's about it.
tl;dr it's shit but would be decent if it was half the size and on the end of a stick
>>29275518
It doesn't actually require two hands. It can be wielded in a multitude of ways.
>>29275563
If you held it from the middle one handed it would still have no reach, and also no leverage.
The only way to have any leverage on it in a one handed hold would be to hold it on one side and try to wield it like a sword, at which point the weight would be even more pronounced, and the size and shape would make it incredibly unbalanced.
I love Star Trek, but the bat'leth is a shit weapon anon.
Wasn't the whole point of the bat'leth to be just as dangerous to the wielder to satisfy some stupid klingon need for unnecessary danger and extreme punishment?
>>29275029
Define effective?
If you stick it in someones skull it will do damage, I am sure.
And if you spent a lot of time practicing with it you could probably actually use it effectively.
But if your twin brother spent the same time learning sword and shield instead, and then you two fought, you'd die. Horribly.
>>29275606
I'm not saying its not a shit weapon, but you can hold it both one handed and from one side with a bit of reach.
>>29275668
looks like a good way to stab yourself
I thought the whole point was it was for ceremonial fighting? like judicial duels in medieval germany and shit
>>29275668
My point is that using it one handed makes it even worse than using it two handed.
>>29275689
well klingons are retarded and like to hurt themselves.
>>29275029
get a 2x4 and put a nail in it. Conglaturations, you have a better melee weapon than a batleth. The thing looks like it was purpose-built to stop you from using it in any meaningful way.
I could make a really long stretch of a scenario in which you attempt to block or parry strikes while advancing at the other guy, basically using a modified tackle or grapple to knock his ass over and inflict some slight wounds. Maybe you could disarm the other guy.
If I somehow was stuck with only this bullshit against a fella with a sword, that's what I'd try and do, anyway. Since the thing is cumbersome and dangerous to even try and swing around, just use it as a sort of offensive shield and inflict wounds to the other guy's legs and torso while going for a knockdown. Naturally, I'd probably be dogmeat equipped with this thing.
But no man, it'd be pretty god-awful as a weapon compared to...you know, weapons.
>>29275029
Not in the slightest, but a Mek'leth is like the half aborted fetus of the unholy mating between a kopis and a smatchet and could be used effectively.
>>29275701
This. It's a bad weapon only when you take it out of the situations where it's meant to be used.
It would be like taking a 19th-century dueling epee' and pitting soldiers wielding it against people with real edged broadswords, and then calling the epee' a shit weapon. It's only shit because it doesn't serve its purpose in combat. The epee' historically only had a sharp tip, and was fought to first blood. Duels weren't traditionally fought with sharp-edged swords, because that's an easy way to maim your opponent when you really only want to prove a point without killing them.
There is probably just some cultural reason behind the batleth being used, as it is only meant as a ceremonial dueling weapon. Not a line-infantry arm.
>>29275747
The Mek'leth is so bad its good.
Reminder that the bat'leth was intended to be held like a staff for blocking and swung like an axe for attack.
People who think anything with a blade is meant to be used like a sword is a fucking moron.
>hurr durr this hatchet can't do rapier things
>Hatchets suck
What about the d'k tahg
>>29275770
forgot pic
>>29275750
a guy with a 19th century dueling epee would btfo a guy with a broadsword. a epee and a modern sport fencing foil are two different animals; the former is a 40" long spike of a sword that was a lighting fast thrusting weapon. A guy with a broadsword fighting like you would with a broadsword vs a guy with an epee fighting how you should with an epee would get his shit wrecked pretty quickly. Historically thin proto rapier "dueling swords" were banned in many cities in a high medieval version of "why do u need dat!" because a guy with one could kill the shit out of a guy with an arming sword in a street brawl.
>>29275770
>>29275787
It's pretty much just your average dagger.
>>29275812
but the 2 smaller blades deploy at the push of a button.
Aren't the Klingons both far stronger and far more durable than humans?
Makes sense you'd want a big heavy cleaver to rip your opponent apart if well placed cuts don't affect the species that much.
>>29275789
Do you have any idea how swords and parrying even works? When it comes to epees, you must parry using the strong part of the sword, otherwise he just forces his way through. And that's with other epees.
The broadsword would just swing and force his way through, no matter what the other guy did. And in anything other than a 1-on-1 situation, parrying just leaves him open to an attack by someone else.
>>29275821
And they would do nothing. They're pretty much just for show.
>>29275863
rule of cool brah. its like elaborate hand guard. They do the same job as regular hand guards but they look cooler.
>>29275761
That's only one part of our argument.
Outside of its' intended use (read: science fiction alien duels where the opponent is also using one), it is a shit weapon all around.
Don't get so butthurt.
What about the Vulcan Lirpa ?
>>29275862
I feel it's worth noting that a broadsword is far too slow to effectively parry an epee. Granted it also does much more damage and the guy with the epee doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of blocking a hard well aimed strike with it, speed of the weapons used must be taken into account.
I'm not agreeing with the other guy that an epee would kick the shit out of a broadsword, just saying they both have their strengths and weaknesses.
>>29275912
The broadsword wouldn't be doing the parrying here. He literally just does a brutish swing and that's it. Just wear some plates over your vitals and a helmet, and all of the speed+agility of the broadsword is nullified.
>>29275862
>hurr but if the guy with the dedicated thrusting sword just stood there and let the guy get within his guard and swing, then....
>hurr but static blocks bruv!
>hurr I don't understand that a traditional epee would be a 3ish lb sword with a 35-40" blade
someone doesn't have a doublewide musketeer epee blade within arms reach
>epee guy spams constant harrying thrusts and keeps his sword point planted squarely in the way of armingswordfags breastbone
>armingswordfag can't react fast enough and can't counterattack because he'll get shanked nigga
>any time armingswordfag attempts to get close epeebro just sidesteps and retreats while attempting to stab the shit out of armingswordfag
>epee guy feints and stabs armingswordfag and recovers into a guard
>armingswordfag drops the fuck dead in a minute or two, implying he isn't on the ground from the pain/sucking chest wound/hole in his fucking heart
>>29275897
Go pick up a STOP sign with the cement anchor at one end and swing it around and you've basically got it.
>>29275933
>he literally tries to get close enough to strike and gets stabbed in the fucking chest because his sword is 5-10" shorter
ftfy
>>29275950
So its the perfect weapon?
It's such a poorly designed fake weapon. Also, I think I would die of laughter seeing him hold it that way. Perfect defense.
>>29275933
>brutish swing and that's it
One miss though and he's getting a few holes put in him though.
>>29275943
Hey man, can we just have an intelligent discussion without the hurr durr bullshit? This is a decent thread so far.
>>29275029
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0dLUtMViUI
This guy does a good analysis of a similar one
>>29275897
Awkward, heavy, round blade for no penetrating attacks. Perfect for it's intended purpose: ceremonial (usually)non-lethal duels. Kind of shit for anything else.
>>29275943
Okay, we can play the game of "but what if they're an expert"
>epee guy spams hurried thrusts
>Broadsword guy parries, because he's a master swordsman, just like the epee
>Forces himself to get in the face of the epee, since it's got a significantly longer blade. The epee'ist is going to rely on lunges to do anything. Prevent him from lunging and that's it
>Because he's an expert like the epee guy in your post, we'll do some more handwaving to say he just can because expert
>Slits the epeeist open
Or here's another scenario, while we're making up more bullshit:
>Broadsword swings, knowing he'll just break the thin sword made exclusively for dueling and not for combat
There is a reason that the armies of europe did not use epees, and why it was relegated exclusively as a weapon for belligerant nobles to stab each other with.
This bullshit is literally the medieval version of "AK47 vs AR15" threads
>>29275953
Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit
He's wearing plates :)
>>29275420
It's still a stupid and clumsy design, wasting a ton of weight on not a lot of reach.Someone with a half decent sword or pole arm could fuck you up and never get anywhere near close enough for you to retaliate.
>>29275897
Google Shaolin spade
>>29275995
>broadsword
>broadswordguy attempts to parry, but his sword is too short and his attempted block is too slow and he can't react to the feint in time
>gets stabbed in the fucking chest
>hurr he'll just break da puny tiny sword bruv!
>breaking a tempered 3 sided epee blade
life isn't a videogame
>hurr I still don't understand the evolution of the epee, a 19th and 20th century dueling weapon that was the final evolution of the sword I have a swordboner for
>no one ever used rapiers or rietshwerts on the battlefield bruv!
>there is a reason the armies of europe didn't use epees...
yeah, the webley mk vi, the riechsrevolver, MAS 1873, colt 1889, etc.
>this is the medieval version of AR v AK
no, this is more akin to a guy arguing a M1873-89 is better than an M16 because 45-70 is bigger than 5.56x45
>>29276000
so the epee guy shoots him in the chest 10 times with a bergman bayard, seeing as we're moving the goalposts.
>>29275420
>a weapon that, along with extremely similar designs, was actually used in combat, for thousands of years and by pretty much every culture that developed metalworking
versus
>some autistic shit from a TV show
HMMMMM
>>29275989
They basically took an Egyptian axe and put a hammer on it.
>>29276087
Nigga go read up on ypur history. It seems a bit FUCKING WRONG
>>29276247
>btfo
>ur wrong!
keep talking about how you can break a 19th century dueling epee in half with a "broadsword" m8
>>29275967
if you're strong enough to even use it, you could just kill them with your hands, or by throwing rocks.
But I guess if you were fighting someone of equal freakish strength, it would make perfect sense as a weapon.
>>29275981
Is there a collection of these space stories anyway, they get dumped pretty often, but if there's like an archive that would be dank as fuck.
>>29276292
I'm not the guy you were arguing with.
You claimed epees were a 19th and 20th century weapon, epees fell out of use in the early to mid 19th century, also long before the cartridge revolvers you refered to were invented.
Also you commit the fallacy of thinking evolution = progress. Stepping onto a 15th century battlefield with an epee and a flintlock carbine/officers pistol would get you killed quickly. Stepping onto a late 18th century battlefield in full plate packing a broadsword would get you killed pretty quickly too. Just because a weapon evolved doesn't mean its always better in any situation. It just means its better suited to the circumstances. Anyway a smokeless powder loaded .45-70 would push your shit in a lot harder than a 5.56, but the AR has more shots and can fire full retard.
>>29275420
>I might actually consider using a broadsword as a HD weapon.
Imagine how mentally fucked they would be if you off their gun hand with a fucking sword.
Running out flipping their shit.
>>29276087
I disagree strongly, and here's why:
I'm going use the term "smallsword" instead of "epee" because they pretty much refer to the same thing.
Some swordsmith in 1700 didn't just have an epiphany and invent the smallsword, thus rendering every other sword obsolete forever. Estocs and stilettos existed for hundreds of years beforehand; they were just another type of sword used in a time when swords were common. There were a great deal of factors that led up to the smallsword's popularity but "they were just better" wasn't one of them.
The smallsword evolved from the rapier as a specialized dueling weapon, they and & the sidesword have their advantages.
Smallsword:
Lighter
Short length makes it easier to get offline and thrust in a bind
Easier to carry around
Rapier:
Longer reach
Capable of cutting effectively
Larger, more protective guard
Sidesword:
True cut & thrust
Around the same length as a smallsword
Some guy talks about all three:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR8I6YthMsE
Same guy comparing smallsword to other weapons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrERuG9mnLc
Remember, when you compare a smallsword to an arming sword or sidesword, you're comparing a one pound sword to a two pound sword. It's not a massive weight advantage. Bear in mind also that the smallsword was more commonly used in codified duels, in which both participants carried the same weapon. Additionally, that the saber, which has more in common with the arming sword / sidesword than the smallsword, was used effectively up until the 1900s, both in duels and in combat.
Longsword fencers fighting rapier fencers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r7VWIQCHvM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln7dGJys0Og
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRk2KFmCqCw
It's hard to find videos of true smallsword fencers sparring anyone else, but I sport fenced for years before I started HEMA and I'd still take a longsword or rapier over a smallsword any day.
>>29275989
You could definitely get some penetration if you hit with a corner.
>>29275029
No.
And it is not a weapon. Its a stage prop.
People who contemplate combat with star trek weaponry have one function. To be overpowered and used for sexual relief or eaten with some beans and a nice chianti.
Fuck off.
>>29276638
I have a large collection of antique swords my particular interest is the evolution of the cavalry sabre from 1750-1912 but I have many other swords.
People seriously underestimate the utility of two types of blades, spadroons and smallswords which were designed to be both easily wearable and highly effective in the hands of a fleuret trained fencer against a thug.
A true rapier is difficult to wear and a sabre has nothing in common with an arming sword.
Small swords made before 1830 are extraordinarily lethal. After this date they were increasingly ornamental and only continue their true pedigree in the concealed sword stick.
A well instructed teenager with a small sword could in all likelihood kill every poster on this thread no matter what they were armed with in edged weapons (spears and pole arms excepted).
I have seen the gentleman in the videos you link to previously and while entertaining his thoughts on spadroon and small sword are not credible to me as he lacks insight into the effect that a rapid cut across the face followed by a considered thrust (the core strategy with both) have.
>>29277098
He has made a video about spadroons as a follow up after handling a much better one and has said that he considers them to be better than he thought when doing that video
I think it was comparing a French spadroon to that English one, which was just better in every way
I personally would like to handle a good smallsword. Having done a bit of proper rapier fencing and owning an antique 1907 Spanish saber. Both are very long, narrow blades that are best used for thrusting, and while the saber is meant for cavalry, I feel like I can use it on foot just fine (though I haven't been able to try it in anything more than solo drills) Going to the small size or a smallsword seems like it'd have an incredibly difficult time against other swords.
That's specifically talking about going into a fight. A sword spends most of its time in a scabbard, and the lower weight and small size would be much better to carry than my 42" long 2lb6oz saber.
How would a smallsword even close in against that do deliver a thrust?
>>29275029
No. Oddly, it would be if it were not for having the smaller blades. That would just hang up on an attacker.
>>29277098
The best weapon for a 1v1 duel is the montante. A well trained fighter armed with a montante will defeat someone of similar skill armed with a smallsword 999 out of 1000 times.
>>29275701
Its not ceremonial.. The loser is going to die. That is a man dueling a woman. Man is in the pit.
>>29275420
That's not a broadsword. The sword wielder could just stab the klingon in the chest and be done with it.
Truthfully the design looks like it gives you a broad range of attack and defense options.
Reminder that in DS9 the humans routinely scared the shit out of the klingons. Mostly because it was the first time they saw humans in true war mode. We didn't fuck around and it exposed how bloated and idiotic their culture was when it came to warfare.
>>29275029
Judicial combat weapons aren't generally great when compared to other weapons. It doesn't particularly matter when both opponent's agree to use them anyway. There are even real world examples, pic related.
>>29279501
In "Way of the Warrior", the Klingons slaughtered almost everyone in the command center and injured a few of the main characters.
Though there is a Bajoran guy who does surprisingly well with no weapon. He's in the background while Kira is having a prolonged close-range fight with a Klingon. The guy, who I'm pretty sure bought the farm, deserved a posthumous commendation.
>>29275989
>Vulcan weapon
>too heavy
4u
>>29275981
>As if they had just been waiting, hoping or praying to whatever strange gods they honor for a chance to show us their true weaponry.
Dear Santa & Koch, I've been really good this year and always remembered to pray to the Kube every night. So when you come outtawoods on Kubemas Eve could you please give me an alien invasion as a cassus belli to unleash my full arsenal.
Sincerely, Little Billy.
PS: Please throw in a nugget for my little brother, Sam.
>>29279542
This was pre-dominion war.
Post the klingons were like 'where the fuck did these humans come from and what did you do to the federation?'
>>29275029
The British seem to think it would.
>>29280411
a middle finger is a chilling weapon in England now. It's turned into such a nanny state that I'm shocked Scotland didn't secede when they finally had the chance
>>29281160
Why secede when you can invade?
>>29275420
thats a arming sword desu senpai
>>29277098
>small sword
>cut to the face
It does not even have an edge.
>>29281160
>Scotland
Why does /k/ not seem to realise Scotland makes England look libertarian? Scotland would be even worse if they were their own country. They made air guns legally equivalent to rifles for gods sake.
>>29275750
>It would be like taking a 19th-century dueling epee' and pitting soldiers wielding it against people with real edged broadswords, and then calling the epee' a shit weapon
because it is a shit weapon. Just because the epee one of the coolest ways to settle a dispute that doesn't make it a weapon. It's no more a weapon than evidence, depositions, and witness cross-examinations.
>>29275821
that sounds like something that would simply break in combat. See fixed-blades vs folders.
>>29275624
thats a great image
>>29281569
But rapiers DO have edges, anon. Perhaps you meant an estoque-type sword?
>>29275989
Dude, it was based on the Shaolin spade, which is definitely a real and effective weapon. It's one of the few non-fucked ST melee weapons.
>>29281160
>scotland
They're closer to Australia than UK in terms of nanny state.
Ireland is much more independent.
>>29283619
A smallsword is not a rapier, its a light weapon specialised purely for the thrust and usually has a triangular cross section in its mature form.
The best you can get is a flick of the point that cuts a line.
>>29280411
The British think silverware are dangerous weapons
>>29281160
>>29288433
You know people that take that seriously in the UK are mocked, right?
>>29288444
they need to be mocked better.
oh wait, that's probably illegal too
>>29275789
Everything you said was wrong. An epee d'combat is never 40 inches long. You're thinking of a rapier. An epee d'combat is essentially a slightly beefier and slightly longer foik with a sharp tip. A guy with a 19th century broadsword would kill you in seconds. You can only stab him and you can't reliably block his blows, and he can stab and cut you from further away.
>>29275668
YOU JUST ACTIVATED MY TRAP CARD! ITS ALL OVER FOR YOU, KAIBA!
>>29288505
Still going over your head
>>29276471
/tg/ used to have threads with them called HFY (humanity fuck yeah!)
Go search their archives, shouldn't be too difficult to find
>>29288629
They died out because they were, on the whole, badly thought out supremacist garbage. That got old pretty quickly for obvious reasons.
nevermind me, just want to leave this here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVTr9GU7rsU
>>29276471
https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/
>>29288877
Fuck yes.
