how is this possible?
how is it not?
>>29221944
Its a rocket
>>29221944
>How is it possible for an ATGM to hit a tank?
I'm not really sure how to answer this.
>>29221944
>Slavshits gonna shits
well nothing to be surprised here
the missile knows...
>>29221944
Laser guided. The launcher has to keep pointing at the target the whole time, that's why it wiggles so much.
>>29222556
Anti tank missileman here.
Its not actually laser guided, its optically tracked.
So basically you got your reticle, and the missile has a very powerful IR flare on the back of it, if you move the reticle the target aquisition subsystem detects that the point of light on the back of the missile doesnt match up with the reticle and sends a command down the two hair thin wires connected to the missile to adjust accordingly.
It wiggles around like that because the operator is making tiny minute movements to the launch unit which translate to some bobbing and weaving at 1000+ meter ranges.
(At max effective range of 4500 meters a 1mm twitch translates into a couple feet of movement, being a good TOW gunner means holding very VERY still)
>>29223068
>has a very powerful IR flare on the back of it
I think it's called an engine
>>29223087
Naw man, the flight motors are two nozzles that come diagonally out about halfway along the missile, and burn out after only a few seconds.
That red glow out the end is actually the tracking beacons, which is really just a bigass flare.
>>29223249
For the non-ants.
>>29221944
The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't.
In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation, the variation being the difference between where the missile is, and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was.
The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows. Because a variation has modified some of the information the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is. However, it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn't, or vice-versa, and by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn't be, and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error.
>>29223874
The real question is how can we adapt a turbo-encabulator to the missile.
>>29223874
did you honestly spend 7 minutes transcribing that autism
I love you anon
>>29223920
Nah, its a copypasta.
>>29223936
awwww
love retracted
>>29223828
>extendible probe
Implying
>>29223874
I've seen this so many times in so many places that I don't remember where it's from anymore.
>>29224040
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZe5J8SVCYQ
>>29223068
Is there any real why to detect an optically tracked missile by the target except for a radar? I ask because I have been reading about starstreek MANPADS and was surprised it had only few users.
>>29224687
>Is there any real why to detect an optically tracked missile by the target except for a radar?
If you're looking in the right direction you can see the launch flare and the actual missile in-flight.
Many ATGM's also use a laser rangefinder for the initial ranging, which can also be detected by laser warning receivers.
>>29224687
>>29224687
Well first off, the launch signature for a TOW is fucking huge, its a giant boom and a giant cloud of smoke and dust since the launch motor is really just an explosive charge similar to a recoiless rifle.
Next, it uses laser range finding to range the target and a lot of modern tanks have various systems to detect this (the Abrams will automatically rotate and target the source of lasing for instance)
Theres ways around it though.
US doctrine for TOWs calls for using it in a combined arms role so ideally you will be firing everything you got at the enemy tanks, not just the TOW by itself. (Ideally this means arty, other TOWs, JAVs, and hopefully your own tanks are involved too)
The TOW also outranges most tanks main guns max effective range by 1,000 to 2,000 meters too, so engaging from extreme range is always recommended, especially if supporting fires are not available.
You can also passively range using stadia lines (lines along the reticle that are spaces the length of a T-72 at a certain range) so that lasing is not required.
Or you can just lase something nearby the target instead of just directly at the target to try to avoid detection.
I got zero idea how it works as far as MANPADS, I deal strictly in ground targets, theoretically we can engage helicopters but unless it was a really favorable target I think helos would be too fast to easily track and you would be running the risk of over exerting the system and getting an erratic missile (aka its begins ignoring commands and just veers off in some random direction)
Usually happens because you over-steered and the high pressure helium driven pnuematic actuators in the fins lock up.
>>29223874
Top kek, this is from a video on inertial guidance that I was shown in tech school in the threat systems block (USAF operations intelligence). Many inside keks were had
>>29221944
I'm more interested in how the gun got blasted out of the turret. What failed? The bolts connecting it to its mountings, or did the force of the turret explosion drive the whole assembly through the frontal turret armor?
>>29225231
>Next, it uses laser range finding to range the target and a lot of modern tanks have various systems to detect this (the Abrams will automatically rotate and target the source of lasing for instance)
Curious, why does it need to do range finding? If the launcher just tells it to go up, down, left and right, how does the range matter? Apart from checking if it exceeds maximum range I mean.
>>29225286
The tank is basically just a metal box with a hole at the top and the explosion rapidly and drastically changes the pressure of the inside. Pops the turret off like a cork from a bottle of champagne.
>>29223068
Spec Ops Navy seal here.
Its not actually laser guided.
I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.
>>29222323
Toppest of keks
>>29225547
someone mad that they're an arm chair commando
>>29225286
He does have a point.
Tank guns are usually inserted from the inside of the turret, because the breech end won't fit through the hole in the front of the turret and the breech is firmly mated to the barrel.
Older WW2 era tanks with mantlets comprising the entire front of the turret could easily have the entire gun assembly blown out of the front by an explosion, but it's unusual for a more modern tank to suffer the same kind of failure.
Any idea what kind of tank it is?
>>29225583
shut up autist.
Keep your illusions to yourself.
>>29221944
Missile probably hit ammo rack or fuel tank.
>>29223874
>>29224057
>t. Douglas Adams Defence Academy (DADA)
>>29225297
Mainly its for wire sag, the wires are going to sag a couple feet per 1000 meters, so if its 4000 meters out you need to make sure you are positioned not to snag on the ground or any objects between you and the target.
But its also because the laser range finder is good out to 10,000 meters, and supplies a 10 digit grid for whatever you lase with it inside that range. So just because a target is 6000 meters outside your ability to engage doesnt mean you cant call in air or arty on it using the info from your target aquisition subsystem.
Also for ensuring its not outside your max range. There is some debate over its max effective actually. Technically you can hit moving targets at up to 4500 meters (the max length of the wires) but with wire sag that means you have 8 to 10 feet of wire sag and if you arent positioned well you run the risk of tangling the control wires in a bush or something. This causes an erratic missile, and when a 68 pound missile moving at 200 meters per second starts going wherever it wants nobody has a good time.
For practicality sake its 3750 meters but I have hit targets at over 4,000 before, usually you just gotta get on top of a ridge or hill to do so.
>>29221944
American ingenuity.
>>29223249
So they're actually gliders and not powered missiles.
So you could fire them from a ballista instead.
>>29226163
>>29226163
The launch motor is fully used up by the time it leaves the launch tube so its more like an explosive charge than a motor, the secondary flight motor burns for like, a couple seconds boosting its speed up to 200-300 meters per second. Since aerdynamic lift isnt being generated its not gliding but its also only under powered flight for about 8 to 10 seconds, then yeah, it glides to its target. Keep in mind its covering 4,500 meters in about 27 seconds so its kinda a toss up between gliding and being thrown really really hard after the motor burns out.
Seriously, the backblast zone is like, 200 meters. At 100 meters behind the launcher and closer the concussion will kill you, from 100 to 200 it will badly concuss you.
Firing one is like getting punched in the head. Its actually really unpleasant to fire. I did so without earpro once, couldnt hear anything for like a week after.
Youd need one hell of a ballista. Those missiles are fuckin heavy.
>>29226368
>I did so without earpro once
why
>>29225286
>>29225305
>>29225661
The T-72 got it's breach hit and it probably had a round loaded.
is there secondary guidance in case of wire failure?
>>29226403
Because you dont wear earpro in combat
>>29226513
Nope. It just goes fuckin nuts and scoots off in some random direction.
Or spontaneously detonates mid-flight.
Or both.
>>29226556
>Because you dont wear earpro in combat
Retarded as fuck. If you don't wear earpro then hearing is important. But if hearing is important, you wouldn't be okay with going deaf.
>>29226602
>retarded as fuck.
No arguement there. Welcome to the Marine Infantry! Where the stupid shit wont stop happening and the reason doesnt matter!
>>29226113
Not the anon that asked but someone who's also wondered about this, so if you're good at either judging the range right off the bat or finding a suitable object at a close approximation of the targets range to lase instead, there's no hard reason to ever need to actually directly lase your target? I ask because some people seem to think that having laser detection/warning systems installed makes it nigh impossible to get a shot on a tank/vehicle, at least not without it having at least a couple of seconds to respond, and I'd always thought that it was more a case of it being cheap enough to fit the systems in case of inexperienced (or just plain stupid) enemy ATGM operators that it worked out being cost effective.
Also how about the 2B top-down variants, do they use the rangefinding result to set the range to detonate, or is it purely down the missile's onboard target recognition as to when it's overflying it?
>>29226773
Missile guy again.
Firstoff, the TOW outranges tanks by almost 2,000 meters, so if you using it shrewdly, it doesnt matter if they see you if you are a mile and a half outside thier range. All lasing detection does for a tank is give them a heads up to start manuevering, and if you lase right before you launch, it buys them max, 30 seconds headstart to get behind something.thats all, its not some ace in the hole trump card that makes some kind of magical anti missile shield around it or something.
The fly over shoot down missile has a magnetic sensor in it that tells it when to detonate. Fun fact, getting behind something like mentioned above isnt always enough anyways. If that something isnt tall enough (about 9 meters tall or more) the missile will just fly over the obtacle and detonate the penetrator charge downward when it detects the tank beneath it.
Its a lot more guess and check than if you can see your target, and does afford them much more protection than if they were out in the open obviously, but again, its war. Nothing is 100% everything proof like some people with a certain mental disorder the predilects them towards black/white absolute methods of thinking.
I honestly dont know why people are so obsessed with the laser anyways. Its strictly there only for the gunners situational awareness, and half the time isnt used, either due to it not being required, or because its broken. A missile launcher with laser range finder, or a tank with lasing detection are just tools and just like any tool they are only going to be as good as the guy using them. Again, war has an element of the random to it too, its not like rock paper scissors.
>>29223874
Holy shit, 2006 just called.
My favorite derivative of >>29224057 was: http://tomahawkhot.ytmnd.com/
>>29226942
I agree that thinking any system is an automatic IWIN over another is pretty flawed way of thinking, but it had made me wonder if there was some technical reason I hadn't ever imagined that might require target range to be a precisely known factor.
Also do you ever get premature detonation of 2B's caused by random debris (ie remains of vehicles) under the flightpath, or is the sensor tuned to only ever trigger for something supermassive?
>>29221944
Here's the follow up TOW shot that kills the fleeing tank.
>>29221944
>TOW
>Guided by wire
>Range 3200m
>>29225231
>the Abrams will automatically rotate and target the source of lasing
Couldn't you just fuck with it by pointing a laser at it from a few directions and only firing from one?
>>29227159
probably.
Imagine it going haywire after being painted by 3 ATGMs.
>>29227090
Ehhh.... we HAVE had random airbursts, but as to whether its from random metallic debris or not is hard to say because weve had em happen with the TWO2A and the TOW2BB as well as the TOW 2B AERO none of which have fly over shoot down or the magnetic sensor. Its also incredibly EXTREMELY rare. Like 1 in 1,000 chance, and usually when using missiles that are about to expire or have been roughly handled.
I think its more to do with faulty detonator rings. As for wrecked vehicles n shit, if you are using the TOW 2b then its just like wire sag, you dont shoot over stuff like railroad tracks or wrecked vehicles.
(Somebody has a friend of a friend story in which a railway track detonated one, somebody else claims a metal guard rail on a higheay in iraq touched one off, but I havent ever seen it myself)
We dont use the TOW2b much anymore except to get rid of em on rangesthough, we use the TOW2B AERO, or the bunker busters in combat.
>>29227159
>implying we havent gotten yelled at for doing so just to fuck with our own tank crews during training
As soon as the gunner takes control of the turret it stops though.
Also, if you lase a helicopter it will automatically fire like a bajillion flares, but you get in DEEP shit for that.
>>29226113
If it just flies out to max range and snaps the wires will it flip out or fly straight until it hits something?
>>29227232
Usually it skips off the ground after a ways and either explodes, or just goes cartwheeling off somewhere to become UXO.
>>29227222
>Also, if you lase a helicopter it will automatically fire like a bajillion flares, but you get in DEEP shit for that.
do tell
>>29227285
>be corporal, vehicle commander for a missile truck
>have boot lance corporal on the launcher
>helicopter moving across horizon, suddenly farts out a cloud of flares and chaff, flips the fuck out and cruises off
>huh, wonder what that was....
>lance corporal drops into gun looking guilty
>all hell breaks loose over the radio
>we're the only vehicle with a laser capable of setting that shit off apparently
>lcpl looks horrified "I-I was just bored, I didnt know that would happen!"
>i get yelled at. I get yelled at a lot so no big deal.... for me.....
>lcpl on the other hand: made into PFC then forced into the sergeant major mentorship program
>AKA he has to be the sgt majors aid until the sgt major wants a new coffee bitch.
>sgt major decides he like the kid, makes him into the S-1 clerk (battalion paperbitch)
Dont lase helicopters.
>>29227435
>Being an S-1
>Being a clerk to an S-1
>Ever
got what he deserved tbqh
>>29227435
How many times can whatever kind of heli that was pop flares?
>>29225661
>Any idea what kind of tank it is?
Dead.
>>29221944
>God dammit Jamal, stop shaking the laser so much.
>>29227675
Fuck if I know, I'm a grunt. Thats an airwing question, the only time we have any interaction with them is when we get drunk and start a fight out of jealousy over thier marketable job skills and not having to sleep in a hole in the desert.
>>29227905
Uh, grunts have job skills. The recruiters kept telling me that discipline is a highly sought after skill in the civilian sector
>>29227905
Go grab a laser pointer and report back, I wanna know.
>>29227435
Was this during training or deployment?
>>29227949
I'd guess during training if they were able to nail one vehicle as the only thing in range/with position able to do it, deployed there would pretty much always be the off chance it was genuine hostile enemy action.
>>29227927
Go grab one yourself and set yourself up just outside the fence of a military runway. Im sure the MP's wont mind!
Just remember to brandish a weapon as well, they wont respect you as an equal unless you are armed. And remember to spasmically reach for it when they approach you to demonstrate that despite being a civilian you still have fineley honed reflexes.
Its a warrior traditional ritual sorta thing, trust me on it.
>>29227949
>>29227981
It was in Afghanistan. They can pull a vague grid location from where lasing originates too I think (need confirmation tho)
>>29228008
You forgot "scream AM I BEING DETAINED" the entire time.
>>29227905
>jealousy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmx1jpqv3RA
>>29223068
so... like beam-riding basically?
>>29227675
depends on heli and how they set up the flare launching program.
>>29229543
No, it's almost the exact opposite. A beam-riding missile has sensors that "follow" a beam (radar or laser) being generated by the launcher.
In TOW, a computer in the launcher senses the IR flare at the back of the missile and compares it with where the operator has currently placed the target reticle. The difference in position is translated into maneuvering commands sent to the missile by wire.
e.g., If the reticle is to the left of the flare, the launcher module tells the missile to yaw left.
