Airborne obsolete?
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You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
So, in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars there have been 8 airborne jumps that we know of in theater, almost all of them were done by the 75th Rangers Regiment.
The 2e REP of the FFL did a combat jump into Timbuktu in Mali and last year a combat jumb into Niger.
There have been others by other countries, but overall just not enough to justify huge divisions and brigades spending lots of money and fuel on practice jumps for something that is basically obsolete.
They should leave it SOF units whose focus is that kinda things and get rid of it in conventional units and focus more on air assault which is much more relevant.
>>28920943
Bump
>>28920943
Yes, it is completely obsolete.
We wont necessarily always be fighting the low-burn COIN wars we have been for the last 40 years. One day we might need them.
>>28920962
>bumping my thread for me
Cheers, bro
Crete.
>>28920943
No the Airborne is not obsolete.
It's relatively cheap to maintain, and can be a valuable asset.
This opinion is coming from an 0311 (former) who also believes amphibious assaults are also a valuable asset even tho we haven't done it in recent history.
Basically why /k/ justifies having a gun. Better to have it and not use it, than need it and not have it...
So lets just leave war strategies to ppl who don't eat Hot Pockets and shitpost on 4chan from mommies basement, mmkay?
>>28920943
Parachuting entire divisions in is strategic. Helicopter aerial insertion is a tactic.
Just because there hasn't been any out and out 3rd generation warfare to justify it in the last 50 years doesn't mean it should be completely abandoned.
>>28921046
>So lets just leave war strategies to ppl who don't eat Hot Pockets and shitpost on 4chan from mommies basement, mmkay?
Because they've proven to be so competent at their jobs, haven't they?
>>28921064
Sure.
What proofs do you have to the contrary.
You can always tell ppl from garbage boards. They reply quick without anything to say.
Proofs plz.
>>28920943
>have 2 SOF units in the 1er RPIMa and 13e RDP in the French army
>still send the 2e REP to do the combat jumps
Wew, laddies
>>28921088
The fact that Iraq was lost and 15 years later we're still losing in Afghanistan
>>28921110
Did we tho junior?
Notice how gas prices dropped.
Stop following ideology, and stop thinking you know everything.
Hell you're almost 14, wait until you get to drink a beer.
>>28920975
I think part of the OP's point was that large conventional airborne units on the 82nd mold are utterly unsuited to conducting the mass airborne operations against a peer or near-peer opponent a la D-Day.
VDV is a bit more realistic for "real war", but it exists to serve needs largely determined by Russia's internal geography, while making huge compromises in heavy equipment in order to bring/drop that heavy equipment at all.
>>28921144
Yeah, or maybe I'm 25 and actually in the Army, but yeah, you're probably right, 14.
I'm not one of those blind patriots who sucks the military's dick about everything they do, I know the wars have basically been failures
>>28921160
OK that explained a lot.
You're upset you joined during peacetime and get buttfucked on a daily basis.
You're just mentally 14.
Just fucking with you man, you sound OK.
But don't blame losing Iraq on us. We were ordered to let their troops take it over. And they were garbage and lost it. It's like they don't take their own lives serious. They took training as a joke.
ISIS is more committed that's why they win.
>>28920943
FIVE JUMP CHUMPS
>>28921160
The army did its job in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Nothing more could be asked of them. The war was lost by the politicians who conducted the strategy and policies of the war. Failure may have been their goal all along though, who knows.
The army always wins its battles though.
Who 5 jump chump here? Feels bad man
>>28921101
Foreign Legion aren't "French", so if a bunch of them die the PM doesn't get roasted for "sending our boys to die in a foreign land".
>>28920975
Rhodesians would beg to differ.
Airborne is great for COIN because you can drop infantry where you need to, to trap insurgents. The anti air threat is not that great.
mass static line jumps are obsolete for conventional wars. air defense threat is too high. you will have to follow up quickly with helicopters or mechanized forces.
>>28921638
Leave it to the french to literally cuck themselves and need a foreign fighting force.
>why do ppl say French are pussies
Hmmm, I wonder.
>>28920975
Low intensity COIN is the only place where they are feasible
>>28921709
This.
In an actual conventional war of force on force paratroopers would just be shot out of the sky
>>28921032
I think it's an interesting topic. I generally agree with you. Large scale airdrops have never been a good idea.
Small special forces halo drops should be more developed though. Imagine urban warfare, and a small team lands on the roof and secures a building to your rear. That's gonna fuck up your whole plan.
Special forces are great for sneakily taking out strategic targets behind enemy lines.
But the major problem with mass air drops is that they can't carry the supply to be anything more than light infantry with not enough bullets to last more than a day or two.
>tfw Airborne infantry
>tfw obsolete
>>28921046
>cheap
Except for the long term VA healthcare bills from all the fucked up knees and backs.
Opportunity cost is a real thing, too.
>>28920943
Do you even understand how an Airfield seizure works? Preparatory fires?
Why would they leave static line jumps to SOF units? thats a fucking terrible idea.
>>28921779
Life sucks, then you die
Have fun later in life walking when your knees are blown out from all those meaningless practice jumps you did.
At least you weren't a leg, right?
>>28921828
I'm the only 0311 out of 3 other buddies who hasn't had knee surgery.
Jumping out the back of 7tons in full gear isn't much easier on the legs.
>>28921670
All of African countries love parachutes for this reason. Relatively cheap to maintain, attracts the gung ho types instead of typically corrupt/incompetent nigs, shit ground transportation infrastructure anyway, lack of modern AA means less risk, overall flexibility and fast response. Kind of a national status symbol too.
>>28921676
I would love it if USA created an American Foreign Legion. We have plenty of surplus gear and lots of colonial psuedo wars. They would be cheap as hell and see lots of action.
>>28921709
>>28921732
>>28921761
The point is seizing an Air Head to the enemies flank or rear, somewhere they aren't expecting it. You don't just throw people out there.
>>28921761
They already do a lot of HALO drops like you mentioned, the problem with them being shitty intel.
>>28921846
You gotta embrace the suck.
French leg u mean? Nope
>>28921928
Anywhere worth taking against a remotely peer foe is very likely to have some sort of air defenses, which must be suppressed for that sort of beachhead situation.
And if you have to suppress those systems to have a jump even feasible, the enemy is likely to know where the jump will occur.
>>28921861
you are supposed to sit down and then gently hop out. rucks get unloaded separately.
Me and others enforced this while I was in the Army. Only had one idiot ever bust him self up getting out of a truck. A PFC that decided to jump out of truck from a standing position with his ruck and kit on. Knee went the wrong way when he landed on the cement.
>>28921922
The US military is already so full or Hispanics and Africans that it basically already is
>>28921976
Every operation in near-peer situations involves preparatory fires, even our named operations in Afghanistan involved them, that's the primary role of artillery and CAS.
>>28921928
It requires air supremacy though. You're not going to get that against a near-peer opponent. Even one unsupressed SPAAG at the target will cause great casualties.
>>28922032
>Afghanistan
>remotely peer situation
Almost anything parachutes can do (making an exception for SF HALO jumps), helicopters can do be better
>>28922074
Anyone competent and not NATO has Russian-Sino anti air defense doctrine. Which means SPAAG and SAMs for days.
>>28922032
Gee Clyde, why your mom let you have two American flags?
>>28921676
>>28921638
>>28921101
Not understanding the principle of sof unit in 2016
>>28921110
>The fact that Iraq was lost and 15 years later we're still losing in Afghanistan
Poe's law, you cannot tell if someone actually believes such a stupid claim or if they are simply miming it.
>>28921982
They used to yell to hurry up.
I agree you shouldn't do it. I purposely waited to be the last man out and scooted my ass down the ladder even tho I was being yelled at.
Hence why my knees aren't busted.
Air Assault.
A lot of Mustard Stained Wings were earned in Iraq with jumps that were a farce. They jumped into Kurd areas that were already safe from Saddam's forces. Some were even picked up by Kurd Security Forces in trucks and driven to a Kurd base.
A Colonel from my brigade at Bragg, finagled him self a 6 month IA deployment. Just so he could get a "combat jump", and make him self more competitive for General.
>>28922084
Obviously I wasn't calling Afghanistan near-peer situation,
How would an air assault be more effective at seizing an airfield (which is a battalion size objective)?
>>28922074
You're right, so do helicopters, its part of the reason why there is so much focus on the SBCT and HBCT nowadays.
>>28922177
There is no reason to not be overly safe during training, except for maybe once or twice a year during big exercises.
It's better to keep everyone at a Walk Pace. Than to have a bunch of injuries that keep people from training or put them out of the military.
>>28922141
Explain as if I was an 8 year old
>>28922177
>>28921922
>>28921144
>>28921088
Nice doubles
>>28922236
Neither would. Because a near peer airbase is going to have SPAAGs and SAMs defending it.
>>28921828
That's what training is for
Skydivers and Extreme ironing undergo great lenghts to ensure that they won't be in danger. Paratroopers, who expect themselves to be shoot at, would be even more paranoid and be trained and equipped better
>>28921110
Meanwhile, the exact same war is being fought in the streets of Paris and Cologne.
You need to grow out of the Super Bowl mentality, where there's a clear winner. That mindset lost WW2 for the Japs.
We're not fighting the war in our own urban centers and countryside, that's a definite win. We keep winning as long as we keep it away from our shores.
>>28921046
Amphibus assaults have been done by other nations in recent history. Brits in Falklands and also a small one during iraq invasion.
Unless you are doing halo air drops are obsolete. It is a cheap skill to maintain though and having the balls to jump out of a plane produces tough infantry
>>28922516
civilian parachutists use a different chute and land differently.
freefall parachuting with large rectangular parachutes allow you to come in at a shallow angle and run/drag in your landing.
static line jumpers use a round or square chute. Which drops them straight down onto the ground. if you watch enough static line jumps. You will notice that the last 10 fee or so it appears they lose all air in the chute and they just drop like a rock.
>>28922585
Why doesn't the .mil use those rectangular shoots?
>>28922533
It is a horribly expensive skill to maintain. flight hours on airforce cargo planes aren't cheap.
you need to have Riggers and their infrastructure.
airforce/marine/navy pilots get trained up to parachute in a few days. While the Airborne Troops take weeks because of a lot of unnecessary rucking and PT.
No one outside of SOCOM/MARSOC and their support units should be airborne. Except in case of the next large scale war. In which case we can train up existing light infantry in a week to fall out of an airplane and not kill them selves on the landing.
>>28922616
they do for freefall/halo jumps.
the square chute the US Army uses now for static line jumping is easier to train and less chance a paratrooper will fly well out of the drop zone.
>>28922616
Because that would be a change anon. Change is scary.
Airborne infantry E6 here, it's massively overrated but not useless. Airfield-securing jumps have a valid (albeit very rare) purpose at the strategic level, even through they're often operationally awkward and tactically retarded.
The US army should get rid of line airborne units and leave it to the Ranger battalions.
Maybe then we could stop using T11s and start using sane, steerable freefall parafoils instead.
Airborne also informally serves as a way of identifying better risk-takers for different pipelines; but it's overrated there also. The "elite" aura is horseshit, we may be slightly better at rucking than mech units but the reputation is historical inertia.
And besides, an average, competent joe with a 240 PT score and a Stryker will have an optempo (and level of supply) that beats a stud with a 300 PT score moving on foot every time.
>>28922616
>>28922662
Because when they tried them idiot soldiers were steering them into each other and getting fucked up. The Army knows they're better, but Pvt. Joe Retard can't handle them.
It's just an old tradition keeping shit going
There's no point at all to it, its not practical or worthwhile.
Military gliders is the way to go, not parachutes.
>>28923502
Same reason militaries wear short shorts, it's tradition.
>>28922816
Gliders do the same thing without the massive tactical fuckup of a buncha troops landing in random places miles apart
Which is kinda like steerable parachutes except harder to fuck up.
>>28923545
>who wears short shorts
>>28920943
>>28923502
>Military gliders is the way to go, not parachutes.
Convertible APC/gliders that swim to shore under the cover of heavy caliber gunfire support from a heavily armored capitol ship. Traditional aircraft carriers are sub bait, so we'll have to launch all our Advanced Super Tomcats from submarine mini-carriers.
>>28921101
>sending SOF instead of airborne troops to take a city
10/10 armchair general.
>>28921676
Your forgetting that the vast majority of FFL officers are French.
Also, contrary to popularity belief, French citizens can and do join the Legion.
>>28923870
1/4th of the Legion was French during the early 2000s.
>>28923565
Let's not start that glider argument again. The last thread about glider vs helicopter was a monumental screwjob
>>28922032
Why all those American flags strapped to their gear?
>>28921982
>Hey sergeant I'm just gonna sit on the edge of this truck and gently hop down.
Things that don't happen.
>>28920943
Obsolete? No.
Only useful when you need it? Yes!
Basically its a 911 force. How else are you going to put a brigade sized force anywhere in the world in less than 24hrs? ....and then support them.
Marines have amphib landers and such, but they are scattered and can take days to get on site. Airborne troops can take as little as 8hrs from wheels up depending on where.
Greneda and Panama both saw combat jumps in the 90's.
Tldr: its kept around for when we need to go from peace to war real fast and dont have time for a build up.
>>28922644
Not exlpensive to maintain that skill at all.
Pilots need flight time regardless. Airborne begs for a ride, this is how jumps are made. Riggers MOS is just jump school plus a few days to learn how to pack and fix a chute. You can litterally stuff a chute into a rig and it will still (usually) kind of work.
>>28923565
My great uncle was in a glider during the Normandy landings. Not the best idea ever developed.
>mfw the JEEP inside crushed three people on landing
>>28920943
Combat drops are pointless, however for COIN operations and strategic rapid reinforcements its pretty nice to have as a move.
Mali was a hardly a combat drop.
In Georgia, the Russians moved 2 division of light infantry in a day to support the the 58th, while they did not drop into Georgia, they were quickly transported into the theater within 48 hours while a normal army unit based in another region would have to prepare and move by train/aircraft, the build up of forces would be blatant and Georgia would have time to react.
While airborne troops fill a very niche role, its nonetheless useful.
>>28922195
>mogadiashu
>>28924649
Like having your shotty inda lock spot for when you fina roll up on some niggas but a GLAWK FOTY with one in da pipe for nigga that tryin jack ya shit when yaass is sleep
>>28923565
Gliderman git and stay git
>>28924965
ye famm, wen a nigga tryna post up witha glocc n ur ak in the bacc, but u stil got ur trusty fortyfive in the belt to woop his ass
>>28925011
>>28924965
>still higher level of discourse than /His/
>>28921609
i just got my 15th on sicily dz at ft bragg the other week, it was an artillery heavy drop at like 3 am
>>28924300
in case someone gets KIAd then they can cover the bodies
>mfw ill never be Elysian Drop Troops jumping from the back of a valkyrie into literal hell
>>28921146
They also have the best music video of any service branch in the world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rAHrHd2lcw
VEH DEH VEH
>>28925093
23 Jumps!!!!
....my last one was 2005....I miss it every second of every day.
I'm watching this documentary on the Frech in Mai and there were actually several drops done, at least 3, maybe more
The French have quite a lot of modern experience with airborne drops in theater
>>28921982
I agree. As a sergeant I enforced this when dismounting. Jumping doesn't save so much time as you think. But not jumping down saves a lot of knees and backs
>>28926958
I am not sure that's a good example of combat jumps. I mean the FFL was fighting shit tier African militias. Against a real military they would have been horribly exposed to counter attack without heavy weapons and CAS.
>>28921609
right here
Yeah, leave it to Ranger Batts, they are specialized airborne infantry anyway, mass airborne drops are a thing of the past and will have no positive effect in the future.
A paradrop if any should be restricted to company-sized elements.
>>28921779
Those parachutes are great for parasailing. At least I think they are the same.. Am I wrong?
battalion to brigade sized at most
you should break up the division and spread it around the commands
>>28924527
Just need to tie down the shit inside better
More people died in combat parachute drops than gliders.
>>28928857
I have no idea but they look the same yeah
>>28926958
They also did assault landings.
>>28928522
Which is why paratroopers are good COIN units but they won't shit very far if they are exposed to half decent armoured units.
>>28921922
Theres many Polish, Russian, German Mexican and other nations. If U will join US.Army they will give U american citizenship in TWO weeks .
>>28920943
>>28920943
stupid question the answer is yes
>>28925112
won't the flag fly away if there is a strong wind?
>2016
>not joining the FFL
>not becoming part of the 2nd REP
>not actually doing airborne drops in war like you train to
Enjoy your ruined knees for nothing, 82nd bitches
>>28931805
surely they would put the body on a stretcher and strap them down
The future is coming
What about HALO insertion via the bomb bay of a B2?
You could put a SEAL team in the bay on special racks. Racks are heated to keep the seals warm. Oxygen hook ups to tanks carriered by the bomber. Over the drop zone they go to personal oxygen and then the bays open. The racks fall out from under them and they then it is HALO jump business as usual.
>>28920943
The last combat jump of 2REP took place last month (4 legionnaires injured).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB9oYgUgteg
>>28920943
I don't think it's obselete for the French army, as the paras are pretty much send every where in Africa. We rely a lot on them.
>>28928522
Fighting armored modern unit is not the point of the french paras. We need unit who can handle shit tier African militias, and their results are pretty good.
>>28921046
>0311 opinion meaning anything
>>28935100
What the fuck were they doing? Why the hell were they jumping into the main part of base like that?
>>28935212
A Marine's opinion about anything is like asking a little kid for advice buying a car or home. It's worthless
>>28935100
That's not a combat jump. That's a training jump in the middle of post for some reason.
>>28935261
>>28935373
For those of you who don't know/ remember me- I was making a joke. I did my time in 2REP many years ago and situations like in the video hardly ever happen. It was one of many training jumps near 2REP base in Calvi. The pilot made a bad assessment and gave the green light too early and legionnaires landed on regiment buldings (landing zone is near the regiment buildings as shown on the video below).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_q0DC-9do8
>>28935512
As a prior US military person, who is going to go to France to try and join the legion, is there any way to make sure I get put in the 2REP? Is being /fit/ really the only indicator of where you'll be put?
I don't want to join and get stuck in mech which is what I've been in the whole time I've been in the U.S. Army
It's 2REP or nothing
>>28935585
Since the moment you show up in recruitment centre to the moment you finish your first part of basic training in Castelnaudary, you will be watched closely and exposed to a lot of tests (physical, psychic and language). Just make sure to get good marks and remember to mention 2REP every time you are aked. After basic training every fresh legionnaire is evaluated and given points and arranged from the best to the worse. There is a tradidion that 5 legionnaires with best results can choose their regimant, all of the others will go where they are ordered to. However, they are also asked on their preferences and it is also taken under consideration.
>>28935780
How is barracks life in the legion? I've always wondered that. Do you at least get your own rooms or share or are there bays?
And what is taking leave like? Do you have to sacrifice your first born son to take leave like in the U.S. army?
>>28923671
No way dude
>>28935850
You can forget about taking leave for the first couple of months or even a year. My first leave has ended even before it started- I was turned down because creases on my uniform were not even (I was ironing them for couple of hours). But the longer you stay the easier it gets. As for the barracks- it is a hrad life in spartan conditions, so don't expect luxuries. You won't be spending a lot of time in your quarters anyways. However after a few years of service you will be able to get permission to rent a flat near the regiment.
>>28920975
so when the time comes, we'll push people out of a plane and they'll either learn how to land or they wont...
>>28934979
that seems incredible ineffective in terms of cost.
>>28935073
What about F-35's towing platoon sized stealth gliders?
>>28935972
So basically the same as the U.S.
Leave is basically impossible to take unless you suck off your commander or give your unborn child, unless it's during the designated window they give you. God forbid you don't want to take it during that time because you have an important thing to go to at another time.
And barracks are whatever as long as your roommate isn't an ass and stays up all night watching movies or playing music
