Are British officers still usually upper class?
Do they get the same equipment and training as enlisted?
>>28895886
not sure but was a cadet when i was younger we had a weekend and there were officers there to talk to us all of them were dressed like geography teachers all middle or uppclass
>>28895886
I'm not in the British military, but from what I've read, their officer corps seems to be a lot like what we have here in the states. Even in America, officers often (but not always) come from families that are generally a little better off, seeing as they could afford to go to college. That, or they were decent enough high school students to go to a service academy.
Not sure about the Army, but in the RAF they almost always act more upper class than the non-com. You can always smell an officer even in civi dress because they'll stick together in a corner and give disapproving looks to normal behavior like putting your genitals in taxidermy animals and puking over each other.
>Do they get the same equipment and training as enlisted?
HAHAHAAHAHA. No.
Our pilots get given Breitling watches for free the cunts.
>>28895886
>Are British officers still usually upper class?
Most go to university and there aren't many genuinely working-class officers, but then Sandbags tends to make people act more upper-class than they are
>Do they get the same equipment and training as enlisted?
training is a lot longer, infantry officers are expected to be far more slick in terms of drills/admin than squaddies because they have so much more to do anyway
>>28895886
They get more training and have stricter requirements
>>28896333
Wow, it's like you know absolutely nothing about ROTC
>25% of ROTC cadets are on full-ride 4-year merit based scholarships
>an additional 40% are on full-ride 3-year scholarships
>over 90% of ROTC cadets get at least some financial aid through the ROTC program, independent of any other financial aid
>juniors and seniors (MS3's and MS4's) receive a fairly substantial living allowance/stipend
>the overwhelming majority of ROTC graduates come from public universities with a total cost of attendance of under $15,000 including living expenses
The average 2nd lieutenant/ensign in the US military comes from the lower middle class, with a significant representation from the lowest class and only a minor representation from the upper class (VMI, Citadel, ROTC programs from ivy-league schools). Even the majority of service academy graduates are middle class.
>>28895886
>Are British officers still usually upper class?
Far, far less than now. The only places you really see it is in the Guards or Household Division. Since the divide between classes in the UK is so small now there is barely a difference between officers and ranks in a lot of units.
>Do they get the same equipment and training as enlisted?
Equipment is obviously the same. Why wouldn't it be? You're issued what you need for your job.
Officer training is far longer to account for all the management training and academics. Depending on what capbadge they are they get trained to manage those in their trade. Inf officers and some others can effectively do what their lads do and know the job they do, but some in the technical trades don't need to know the job specifically so just learn how to manage those who do.
>>28895886
Where's blackadder, he went off to British Army Officer School.
>>28897499
Are Royal Marines officers well respected in the forces?
>>28895886
why is he wearing a white shirt? I've never seen white shirts with british dress uniform.
he is the fucking prince however, so its not as if someone will even bring it up
>>28898196
>Are Royal Marines officers well respected in the forces?
Probably more than any others. Especially by the men they lead. Unlike other services, Royal Marine officers go through the same training establishment as the ranks. On top of that they do the same highly demanding tests but in more difficult time limits so their men know they can do what they can and more.
>>28895886
There's still a distinct class divide, but not all officers are privately educated toffs.
However, if you look at the lower ranks, a lot of guys come from pretty humble backgrounds, and the army recruits heavily in ex-industrial areas like Southern Wales, Northeast England, Southern Scotland etc. which is a crowd that middle class guys aren't going to be particularly keen on joining up with.
The upper class is still the most millitrised one. Much more likely to take part in recreational shooting, cadet forces are mandatory in a lot of private schools and for many a tradition.
The officer class has always had a large amount of middle class officers. Particularly more technical units such as the RE, RA, Para's etc
Officer class is getting more middle class all the time and there has always been a substantial minority of enlisted men coming up from the ranks.
You can go to Sandhurst without a degree. The main thing they are looking for is leadership. Most training is conducted by SNCO's (a little rare for an officer school) and the best third of recruits go to the infantry.
There is a good documentary on Sandhurst I will link if I can find it later. It focuses on the outliers in the group (such as failing toffs). But it's the working class electricians son who gets into the Para's.
>>28898569
>Most training is conducted by SNCO's (a little rare for an officer school)
Why is that rare?
Who is better to train people for the job? Someone who does it as a line manager for two years or someone who does it as a job for most of their career?
>>28898095
That's not a real person you know
>>28898569
>and the best third of recruits go to the infantry.
So the best guys go to the infantry where do the other 2/3rds go then?
Thanks for all this information, I've got good A-levels and been to college (not uni) so I don't have a degree but I was thinking of trying to go in as an officer.
>>28899208
>where do the other 2/3rds go then?
the rest of the army
>>28895886
It was the mid 16th century when Sir Francis Drake noticed that having a member of aristocracy with no specialist knowledge in command of a sailing ship was really fucking stupid. It was actually a bit more complicated than just an aristocrat presiding over a ship, he would preside over a committee of the sailing master, navigator, master gunner, and captain of the marines. Sir Drake was the first to propose that officer in charge of the ship should be chosen solely on merit and not blood linage. This evolution in naval command and control never really caught on with the Spanish and is probably one of the reasons their navy fell behind.
>>28899208
>>28899246
This. Close up infantry fighting is where leadership skills are needed most. Don't get me wrong, if you are top of your class and want to join another arm you can. But the infantry requires a higher standard than most other arms
>>28898714
The SNCO's of course.Many military academies have training done by other officers however.
>>28896235
Doesn't middle class in the UK mean not Aristocratic and not homeless, as opposed to the US where its more of an income things
>>28899384
Traditionally in the UK, you were either upper class or scum/working class/Irish.
>>28899327
> having a member of aristocracy with no specialist knowledge in command of a sailing ship was really fucking stupid
what? no
>>28898569
As promised here is link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTdlU0rAIFg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LITY6RT1nmo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_mZc3BGZ0g
After a year at sandhurst officers then go off to trade schools. So these documentries dont represent the full pipeline.
>>28899420
Fantastic reply.
Are enlisted personnel still usually lower class?
If not, why would someone become enlisted?
>>28899365
This+2. Infantry requires switched one guys who know how to make a good decision in very quick time.
>>28899327
The Army has long been the plaything of the Aristocracy. Even when the middle classs made up large amount of the officers the Aristocracy tended to promote their friends to the top.
The RN stopped that far, far earlier. RN has been a technocratic oronisation dominated by the middle classes since before the act of union. It really show in its succeses. The armies record is a bit more patchy regardless of almost always having a very high quality of private soldier.
>>28899416
thats bullshit
In America relatively few members of the upper class are involved with the military, and those who are typically come from families who have been involved with the military for generations upon generations.
This was not the case until recently however. It's considered to be an aberration and is worrying everyone from economists to political scientists.
Most recently the military is beginning to consider themselves a class apart from the citizenry, with little to no inclusion of members of the upper class among their ranks. This is also regarded as worrisome to most everyone bothering to pay attention.
>>28899486
>Are enlisted personnel still usually lower class?
Not for a while.
>>28899515
Everything I know about the UK I learned from watching red dwarf drunk. I make no claims as to the accuracy of my statements.
How big is the class divide in Britain? Haven't most of the old school upper crust aristocratic families died out?
>>28899633
It isn't like America. Money is not the sole determiner of class. A rich commoner is still only a rich commoner. That's why I always chuckle when I hear that Europe has more "class mobility" than America, because it's obvious that the people conducting the study don't know what they're talking about.
>>28899664
Go read the Great Gatsby. You can amass all the fame and fortune possible in America but you'll never be accepted as a peer of the old money families.
>>28899702
Not quite. You can at the fourth generation or so, because for the first three you're new money.
>>28899443
>9:00 of part one
>guy that was throwing up water decides to go to toilet to throw up
>as he's going to toilet throws up again
>DI turns around and screams "ARE YOU GOING TO LEAVE A FUCKING TRAIL DOWN THE WHOLE CORRIDOR?"
>>28899408
Oh I thought you meant the character
We had a British officer tripfag?
>>28899384
No. Aristocracy means those with inherited titles They make up a tiny amount of the population. The upper class is made up of members of the landed gentry (squires, lairds, those with big houses and land but not proper titles) the make up a very small amout of the population. Both of the above groups dominated pre-industrlisation as they controlled the agicultural land. In parliment they would sit in the House of Lords.
Middle class originally included people such as lawyers, bankers, merchants, engineers, scientists, succesful buisness owners, factory masters, maritime officers, stock brokers, civil servants, mimisters etc. They would be at least as well educated as the aristocracy (often better) and have money made though professional skill of through buisness. After industrlisation they dominated industry, politics etc. They sat in the House of Commons. The Prime Minister comes from the house of commons. The Empire was created and run almost entirely by the middle class.
Skilled working class would be tradesmen, sailers, small buisness owners, farmers who owned their own land etc. They tended not to join the Army in many time periods, excepting land owning farmers who often joined cavalry units.
Working class would be those who worked in new in factories and did the labour. In many periods the army was mostly made up of working class people who couldnt find other work or those who wanted an adventure. The regimental system which put a strong focus on local identity was a big pull to join as people often wouldn't identify much with the idea of 'Britian' or even england/scotland/wales/ireland compared to Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders or the Lancashire Fusilers.
Class is pretty flexiable and people could and did switch between them regulary. Particulary between the working and middle clases.
Class means very in modern britian apart from what sort of accent you have. At least in terms of how people judge your ability.
>>28899828
Yes. Like the other anon said he went to school/academy last we heard.
>>28899628
Fair do's. Britian has been dominated by the middle class for 100's ofyears. If you where very succesful you got a title anyway however.
The Army in many periods pretty much was either toff or scum (napoleaonic times). But the army didn't represent the nations demographics. The army was looked down upon by most in favour of the navy.
>>28896444
really? the USAF gave me a Timex Ironman. i think it's under my couch.
>>28899573
yup. i went to the type of little private high school where 1/3 of the class goes off to a ivy league... let's just say i'm super surprised that 1 out of every class for the few years after me has joined up. even more surprised that one guy enlisted.
>>28899905
>The army was looked down upon by most in favour of the navy.
Which was funny because the British Army was 100% "volunteers" but the RN was about half pressed men, the superior RN was put down to the meritocracy of acutally earning your rank where the Army could purchase Commissions up to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel.
>>28900000
>>28900000
Yeah I know. Due to conscription the Navy represented soceity better. Though in practice they almost always took costal folk who would already have skills of a sailer. It also paid better, there was an oppurtunity to share prize money, required more skilled tradesmen and you got to win most of the time too!
Army (in the npoleonic period) got those who couldnt find something else or those who felt a sense of adventure.
In Scotland the regiments took on much of the clan system and attracted many who just wanted to fight and didn't much care for anything else Which is was for a time highland regiments had a reputation as some of the best infantry about, same as the Para's today in some ways.
>>28899702
>you'll never be accepted as a peer of the old money families
Why would you want to? Bunch of inbred, cold, boring weirdos who do nothing but pop antidepressants and waste their time tracing their lineage back to the Mayflower or the Dutch colonists of New Amsterdam. Go watch "Born Rich" or "The One Percent" and see if those people look like they're fun or even tolerable to be around.
>>28896333
You're a fucking idiot.
Most officers in the US Army are just poorfags who joined ROTC on a scholarship that says they'll pay back student loans if you join the army.
Which is why most of the officer corps is idiots
As many eyes have this one usually not that British can't go slowly at first in the officer school where they returned having nothing to show for it but camel shit bitch
>>28900205
>As many eyes have this one usually not that British can't go slowly at first in the officer school where they returned having nothing to show for it but camel shit bitch
>>28900000
The army used press ganging too
>>28898244
>>28898196
my experience is that marines and para officers are all very high quality, truly driven men who are respected by the men. You hear some rumblings but by in large it's less than the rifles. Guard officers tend to be more the kind of guys following in daddy's footsteps and a bit stuck up.
Sandhurst does seem to train a generally great set of officers. Not had much experience with foreign officers other than danish and a few americans. On average they were very comparable.
>>28900268
Technically they did, they used trickery to take the shilling or used to to get Judges an offer pr Army or Prison, they never actually kidnapped people like the Navy did. The difference being that the Army took any then trained them, the RN took people from coastal town and villages expecting them to already be skilled at sea. Of course problems did occur when they nabbed a land lubber or even a serving soldier on leave.
>>28900285
what's your opinion on danish officers? just curious
>>28899327
>scum detected
If they were not qualified, then Almighty God would not have let them be born an aristocrat. Your argument is simply preposterous!
>>28900351
only met one, clearly an inspiring guy. When things were a little hot he cut slack with dress codes and the bull shit. Very cool under fire. Had to deal with us in english, being calm enough to speak in a foreign language is impressive when some twat with a dshka is making big things smaller
>>28899443
2nd vid contains bayonett training. Definitly the best one.
>>28900423
can't imagine having to do that in a foreign language, never really thought about it
Does it really matter?
Military culture automatically makes officers think they are from the upper class and are in the upper class. Which is why they all tend to act like douche nozzles unless prior enlisted.
>>28896444
That's a perception issue. Officers are supposed to behave as officers. Rankers, well, they're rankers. Most officers are normal subjects and have no peerage.
>>28898232
Officers often still wear white/cream shirts with their No.2s in many regiments.
The fawn-coloured all-ranks shirts were brought in with FAD, but those No.2s in the picture are from before FAD
>>28900285
Fuck off you hat
>>28902781
Great job asserting yourself. While officers get the pay, accommodations, wemon, and medals, you'll always have this small victory of telling one off on the internet
>>28902817
How is the cadets working out for you?
>>28902898
I didn't actually serve, your post was so pathetic I couldn't contain myself though.
>>28902912
No one cares about your time in the RAF
>>28902912
You didn't really though did you. Let's be honest here
>>28902951
>>28902938
I don't consider my time in your mother's vagina to be anything more than a community service. There were plenty of sailors milling about the place though.
Britbong Geordie in Texas here.
What the US call middle class is a lot closer to working class back home in Bongland.
Scots tend to be the most popular officers and the worst RSM.
>>28899327
Isn't that why RN Officers are traditionally not referred to as Gentlemen or somesuch?
>>28906028
>Scots tend to be the most popular officers and the worst RSM.
Do you mean Scottish people or Scots Guards?
>>28906141
Scottish, 2 Scots, ken?
>>28906028
https://youtu.be/HxFgSmR0i3A
>>28896235
>dressed like geography teachers
what the fuck does that even mean
>>28898244
To reinforce RM Officers, they more or less marine and a half. The greater fitness standards required and training on top of normal RM training.
Mad respect.
>>28899899
Thought he went off to the Intelligence Corps?
>>28899365
>But the infantry requires a higher standard than most other arms
The glaring contradiction is, all officers can do the job of an infantry platoon commander, and transferring to the infantry was relatively easy.
>>28895886
>Are British officers still usually upper class?
There's very little martial tradition among the upper classes today. Using the example of two 2LTs; one of them is absolutely awful at her job, and she's not going to get higher than lieutenant, if she even stays that long; the other has learned RP, he's very good, and I can find no fault with him save that he can be brusque with people at times. They're both working class. The former barely follows the morals and standards of the army, and appears to my eyes to be working class and belonging to the soldier's mess, the latter follows them to the letter, and appears deceptively upper class.
>Do they get the same equipment
Unless you can justify something different for yourself, yes, you will. Carrying another mortar, because you like using mortars yourself, even if you're in a densely populated European city where you obviously won't need it, is not a good idea.
>and training as enlisted?
No. Regular officers spend 44 weeks at RMAS, and weeks to months training for their role with their unit afterwards.
A regular soldier spends 14 weeks in phase 1 training, and ranging from weeks to years in phase two depending on the role and the competence of the soldier. 28 weeks in a single course for both phase 1 and 2 if they're joining the infantry.
For reserves, those times are shorter across the board.
>>28898095
Captain Blackadder died of old age.
>>28906258
I would think he meant they dressed poorly.
There is no such thing as "class"
what are you, a commie?
Got a mate in blues and royals. He became posh. You have to.
So what do you think about the SAS / SBS?
Do you think they're normally upper class or just middle/working class lads who've worked hard as fuck?
(American military) are officers generally upper class?
Not generally. Its just that enlisted tend to think so since they come from lower, to lower middle class, and officers usually come from either middle class, or atleast families that have better financial management skills
(Like not having 8 kids and driving a camero on a $30,000 a year salary)
So he finished college and goes the officer route.
Then the enlisted guy who comes from an 11 kid $30,000 a year family who thinks that his LT is stupid and regrets his own life choices goes on /k/ and bitches that his LT is an elitist upper class retard because its easier to do than just admit that his folks are too stupid to keep it in thier pants until they are more financially secure.
Most of my officers came from families within the same income bracket as my family, they just had more intelligent and fiscally responsible folks than I did, or made better decisions than me. Atleast financially, they were still fucking dumb at everything else sometimes.
>>28908204
So you're saying that officers are more adapt to good decision making and judgment calls? That's sounds entirely appropriate.
>>28908204
Still from a higher class. Not quite "aristocracy", but "not a fucking plebian".
>>28895886
Sort of but not really. Obviously you'll need a degree, but since about half the population has one that's not saying much. However they always seem to be from families which have gone to university for generations, which definitely makes them upper middle class, and there's even a sub-class among them called Sloane Rangers who have a really high chance of choosing the armed forces as a career path.
>>28909437
In practice most do, but you don't need a degree.
>>28908140
SAS/SBS are mostly taken from JNCO's in their mid 20's. So mostly working class.
>>28909618
Read somewhere their is a bit if a shortage of officers ( partly due to harder standards) so SAS platoons are often commanded by SNCO'S.
In the SAS/SBS your rank reverts to zero when you join if you are not an officer. So a CSM would find himself a trooper again once making it in.
>>28909903
I thought it was the SBS with the officer shortage and that SAS officers were seconded over to them.
I also think there was some talk of merging them due to it, though I'm not sure if that was serious or not. I may be mistaken.
>>28899443
Just watched all these, a fantastic series and shows not all officers are upper class.
>>28899573
>Most recently the military is beginning to consider themselves a class apart from the citizenry
This is quite dangerous in itself, the chilean example is quite patent on the evolution of a citizen-military divide.
>>28910143
>I thought it was the SBS with the officer shortage and that SAS officers were seconded over to them.
It is yeah. SBS have a smaller pool to draw from as most of their take comes from the Royal Marines.You don't often get a guy in the SBS who came from the Army initally as they're almost always drawn to the SAS.
>>28909437
You do not need a degree to become an officer in the British Army
>>28909618
Explain all the well spoken ex SAS officer explorers
>>28912206
Apparently RN mine clearance divers make up a fair proportion of the sbs. They do the all arms commdo course before selection to get some weapon skills.
The UK posses diving docks to attach to submarines and supposidly midget subs. Not much is known about what they get up too undersea.
>>28910143
As a maritime nation I don't see the brits getting rid of naval special forces.
>>28910143
>I also think there was some talk of merging them due to it, though I'm not sure if that was serious or not. I may be mistaken.
There's always talk about merging the SAS and the SBS but it never actually comes to anything.
>>28912326
>>28912281
I get the feeling that the SBS is where the real shit happens, the SAS has gone way too public
RN is the senior service after all
>>28911871
It absolutely is. I'm a USAF officer from a privileged background. Most of my fellow officers are sharp, but come from military families or are solidly middle class. Only very few of my friends from home even considered the military. I do have a friend who went to Yale who's a Marine infantry officer.
>>28912338
SBS are the more lowkey element. SIS calls on them a lot becasue they're used to more stealthy patrol stuff and like to keep their names out of the papers. SBS were in Afghan hunting AQ and Taliban alongside Navy SEALs while the SAS were in Baghdad with Delta Force kicking down doors. A lot of the stuff SBS do gets attributed to the SAS as well because most of the time people don't understand the difference.
Their MRE's would suggest so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ3_o7F7mqY
>>28912761
Our corporal in basic training got us good with something like this
For months we believed officer ration packs had wine bottles and Ferrero Rocher in
>>28912854
Italy was/is the last 'major' military to still issue an alcohol ration.
