>9mm is too small
>.45 ACP is too slow
>.40 S&W is the worst of both
What's an actual good pistol cartridge?
>>28543904
any of the above, most pistol calibers are almost identical
a rifle
>>28543904
.22lr
.357
.38 Super
10mm Auto
>>28543932
/thread
>>28543904
.50 ae
>>28543932
Came here to say this.
Just lol if you defend your home with anything other than Mark II 12 mm rocket
.45 Super
>>28543912
that's obviously not true
Black talons
>>28543904
5.7mm
>>28543904
5.7mm
.45 LC
>>28543988
>>28543989
fuck off Marisa
>>28543904
.32 acp
.22 TCM
>>28543904
40S&W... Faster than 45, more mass than 9mm...
>>28543904
14mm, obviously.
>>28544022
Why are police and federal agencies dropping .40 for 9mm then?
>>28543904
>>28544041
>.40 S&W 165 gr
Look at that permanent wound channel. It's far more expansive than all the other permanent wound channels.
>>28544036
Because police are retarded...
>>28543904
.38 super
>>28543904
>.45 ACP is too slow
Yeah, because people are always out running it.
>>28544084
Yeah armchair police officers like you make the most informed choices
>>28543961
>>28543961
>muzzle velocity
>>28544084
Then they were retarded for adopting .40 in the first place, right?
.308 hollows
This is now a stupid question thread.
If I were hit by a .177 pellet accelerated to railgun speeds, would I vaporize or just get pinholed?
>>28544103
Probably... The FBI definitely was, the police are just lemmings and the switch to 9mm is pretty much about cost...
>>28544153
There was a vid of people using 22nailgun charges to launch pellets at the speed of rad on youtube.
>>28544153
>.177 pellet accelerated to railgun speeds
how fast? this is an easy physics question to determine as long as we have the mass and velocity.
>>28544153
If it had the force to disintegrate you then it probably would disintegrate before even leaving the barrel
>>28543904
.50 BMG
everything else is just horseshit.
>>28544199
Let's suppose for the sake of funs that this is happening in space, so no air resistance is there to damage the pellet.
>>28544230
>only .50
>not carrying a DD
>>28544184
neat. what's the result?
>>28544189
let's say 2,520 m/s
>>28544248
make that in a handgun and you got a deal!
>>28543974
In terms of terminal ballistics, yes it is
>>28544262https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOZpy55U-jY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNAQ0-iDn3g
>>28544262
>let's say 2,520 m/s
K
Internet says .177 pellets weigh between 6.5 and 8 grains, let's assume 8 grains which is equivalent to .0005 kgs.
A .0005 kg object flying at 2,520 m/s carries a force of 1.26 kg/m
For reference a 116 grain 9mm carries a force of 2.63 kg/m going by the same equation.
You probably won't get disintegrated.
This is all assuming I remembered my highschool accelerated physics class correctly.
>>28544325
Time to ban cop killer pellets
>>28544371
so basically it would be like getting hit with a smaller caliber round, like a .22 long
something about that seems wrong to me, but I'll be the first to admit ballistics is a fickle bitch that I don't understand even slightly.
>>28544371
wait, shit. I need the acceleration for force.
>>28544386
Hold on, I forgot it's mass x acceleration to get force not mass x velocity.
>>28544325
to be fair, I'm almost certain my benjamin .177 air rifle could do that with 6-8 pumps in the chamber.
>>28544036
Cheaper and more available. This isn't rocket science.
When faced with two options with negligible differences between them, you go with the cheaper and more available option
>>28544401
Still leaves 0 for acceleration, though, as acceleration is simply change in speed or direction.
7.62x25mm
>>28544401
>>28544386
Bah, I'm not learned enough in physics for this. Sorry anon.
Just know it will hurt really bad and you should avoid .177 pellets flying at 2,520 m/s
>>28544447
That's a fair call, I think. I just want to know whether or not there'd be anything left of me to use as deflection material in a space war with pump-action railgun marines.
>>28544099
Not him, but the assumption that the best choices come from agencies and militaries has always bothered me. In alot of cases, "armchair [occupation]'s" really do make choices that are arguably better for their intended purpose. That is to say, someone who is supplying their own gear for their own reasons is usually going to make the best decision for their given situation. They are concerned with logistics on a large scale, cost comes down to personal preference, etc. You aren't having to worry about trainability, large scale availability, familiarity, and so on because its just for you.
Ultimately agencies and militaries are going to decide on what they feel fits their needs best. That list of needs happens to include quite a bit more things that your average person, so you can't really look at what they are doing and assume it's the best
>>28544230
beat me to it
>>28544465
Actually...hold on
What is the time of flight? I think I can still solve this.
>>28543974
The massive power difference between .45 and 9mm everyone pretends exist? I get larger variances in my rifle rounds by adjusting the powder charge a few grains.
Those two calibers and everything inbetween can do the same shit. What matters more is the actual bullet design
>>28544036
Its cheaper.
Women and faggots were complaining about recoil in full sized duty pistols in .40.
At least one major departments choice for duty ammo routinely overpenetrated and under expanded. Their fault, but still.
>>28544520
>>28544286
Then we should ditch the more expensive cartridge
Or am I wrong?
.357 Sig
>>28544526
You should ditch whichever one you shoot worse. Some people shoot .45 better than 9mm and vice versa. Shot placement trumps everything
>>28544513
assume 1 second or whatever is most suitable to your calculation.
>>28544230
>not an obrezed .700 nitro falling block rifle
>weak ass faggot
>>28544544
what about penetration of obstacles?
>>28544566
That's generally a bad thing for self defense ammo to penetrate obstacles because you will have unintended casualties, and you shouldn't be taking pot shots at people through walls or crap like that anyway
>>28544041
The thing about ballistics gel tests is that they don't translate to what a round does in an actual human body, nor does that show how it behaves with many common hinderences of an actual gunfight. This assumes that it's hitting 12" of skin and muscle, it doesn't account for stuff like bones, clothing, internal organs like the stomach, intestines, lungs, etc.
>>28543904
I carry a .40 everyday, love.
9mm is probably better though.
.45 is for 1911's.
>>28544597
oh and I forgot, that's more of a cartridge design choice, not a caliber one. You can get more or less penetration in all the common calibers with certain loads
>>28544548
At one second, at the muzzle, the acceleration of a .177 (.0005kg) pellet flying at 2520 m/s would be 2520 m/s^2 and would have a force of 1.26 newtons
A .145 kg baseball being thrown at 105 mph (47 m/s) at one second directly after the pitch would have an acceleration of 47m/s^2 and would carry a force of 6.81 newtons
So according to my slipshod calculations, it's not that big of a deal but will probably penetrate because of it's very small surface area. I don't think you will be disintegrated though. It's just not enough mass.
>>28544550
>.700 nitro energy 12,100J
>.50BMG energy 20,195J
Who's the faggot again?
>>28544036
.40 Gave no major advantage. The FBI's report concluded that defense ammo in 9mm has become effective enough that there is no reason to spend more on a larger caliber for carry.
9x18 Makarov
>>28544701
I used
a=v^2/2(s)
a=2520^2/2(2)
where "s" is the barell length and "v" is the muzzle velocity for an acceleration of 1,587,600 m/s.
This gave me 793.8 N.
That can't be right.
>>28544794
Well shit
Like I said, I'm going off old highschool physics. Hell if I actually know what I'm talking about.
I trust your data more than my own at least.
>>28544718
But the .700 nitro is bigger so it has more stoppin' powah!
>>28544814
>>28544718
Y'all niggas need some 20mm HE
>>28543904
>What's an actual good pistol cartridge?
.44 Special is the perfect cartridge. Thanks for asking.
>>28543914
/thread
>Deal with it, pistolfags
>>28544813
I'm doing the same, its been 9 years for me. In all likelihood neither of us is right. Yours seems way too low and mine seems way too high.
>>28544608
Most people don't have a foot thick torso. Five inches of right angle penetration will reach any organ in the path. The penetration standard does attempt to account for events such as hitting bone, thick clothes, a thin barrier, an arm or weapon before hitting the abdomen.
>>28544794
well, that would certainly vaporize you.
where are you getting that acceleration value from, though?
>>28543980
Muh cop killa boolits
>>28544840
>an arm
That's exactly what the test is designed around though
Read up on the Miami Shootout
>>28543968
FAGGOT
>>28544825
>not defending your house with one of these on the roof.
>>28544865
*misread your post I'm actually backing you up
>>28544041
I came up with a quick way to get joules from freedom units (grains & f/s).
(V^2*M)/332300
(8268^2*8)/332300=1646 joules.
To compare, a 7.62x39 is 2200, 5.56 is 1700ish, 5.45 is 1300, 9mm is 500ish.
This means it's lethal but penetration is probably low.
>>28544883
>fired my Glock 20
>missed the embankment
>this was the next county over on the news that night
>>28544883
ok, that's actually pretty well done. I lol'd
>>28544844
based on a barrel length of 2m and the given velocity of 2520m/s. Plugged those into
a=v^2/2(s)
which was simplified from
v^2 = iv^2 + 2as
and got
a=2520^2/2(2)
which comes out to
a=1,587,600m/s
Like I said, been out of school for 8 years so im just spitballing.
>>28544836
>>28543914
This. Pistols will forever and always be a compromise
>>28544371
You failed so horribly... BTW what you should be looking for is energy.
That little pellet would be pushing 1588J of energy... That is a shit load of energy in a very small place. my guess is that it cause explosive results on whatever is in the way.
That amount of energy is the same as what rifle calibers such as .223 produce. Don't let that fool you into believing that they would react the same on impact. I believe that the .177 would be far more destructive to a smaller area that the .223. In other words low penetration but a big ass crater.
>>28544938
>using a rifle
>not using glorious carl gustav recoilless design
it's like you don't even appreciate physics, anon
>>28543914
>pistol cartridges that shoot rifles
Where do I sign up
>>28543904
>9mm is too small
what the fuck are you trying to kill ?
>>28544963
niggers mostly
>>28544948
are we talking like, enough to atomize the metal of the pellet, releasing all the energy stored within its molecular bonds in an honest-to-goodness explosion?
>>28544968
but niggers kill each others just fine using 9mm
>>28544874
Seconded
>>28544973
No, enough to perfect your sternum before shredding your thoracic cavity. The energy delivery is on par with a 223/5.56 round.
Nuclear fusion between random atoms need speed like 90% light speed.
>>28545002
>perforate
>>28544973
I don't know about that but, assuming that you use a regular lead pellet I think it would essentially "explode" and you would only recover sand size particles or lead dust from the pellet.
>>28545002
I'm not talking fusion or fission, though. No atoms are splitting or fusing, just molecules. You know, like in a normal explosion?
Because otherwise it's not going to "crater" you; it's going to have a normal bullet-hole style entry with a potentially messier exit on the other side.
Teflon hollows kill gangsters
>>28545017
>i've found it
>the perfect assassination caliber
>>28543904
>What's an actual good pistol cartridge?
there literally aren't any, every single pistol cartridge is underpowered and under performs in ballistics test.
They all suck at killing people.
The best defence isn't the caliber you own it's knowing how to use it properly i.e. mag dumping on the center of mass as quickly as humanly possible.
>>28545070
>aiming center of mass
thats not how you get headshots.
>>28545084
If you feel less than absolutely sure you'll hit you shouldn't try a head shot.
>>28544982
most of the time they survive
why do bullets still use apothecary units like grains when measuring load, but use the metric or imperial system for dimensions?
>>28545070
You could also shoot for the pelvis, if they're a bit farther away. Hard to stay upright after that.
>>28544948
The .177 pellet would be atomized if it went light speed and probably would reach you if your more than 100ft away.
Assuming its made from something that could survive the friction of the air its passing through it would pass through you so fast its retarded, not pink mist you.
>>28544566
That's really only a concern for law enforcement. The rounds they fire contend frequently with auto bodies and windows as well as body armor.
>>28545158
welcome to bureaucracy, son. my mom worked in the US army's department of munitions in the 70s; shit was hella stratified, apparently. Definitely operated on a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality.
5.56 fired out of a AR pistol
>>28544036
Because modern 9mm rounds offer more than adequate performance with the added benefits of reduced recoil, increased magazine capacity, and lower cost per round.
>>28545158
because powder does too, and whole-unit measurements are easier to use
>>28545176
anything with mass going the speed of light would instantly turn into a nuclear explosion , since you're basically fusing anything the bullet "passes through" with the bullet. XKCD what if has an article about this , but I wont bother linking since for some reason 4chan dislikes the author , and some will probably call me a faggot just for mentioning him.
>>28545176
figures: http://space.stackexchange.com/questions/4132/what-happens-if-an-astronaut-is-hit-by-a-tiny-micrometeorite
>someone got to test this on rats.
>someone had to clean up
>>28545084
And life isn't a video game. Get over it.
>>28545239
and yet I was about to make some joke about pulling out my knife to run away faster , way to be the party pooper.
>>28544446
I think you meant to say 7.62x54. Carry an Obrez or don't even bother.
>>28545176
I don't agree with this theory, regardless of what the pellet is made out of it will very quickly and violently displace a lot of material. All one has to do is look at how water reacts when getting shot. It doesn't just zip cleanly into the water at high velocity, it violently makes a huge cavity where it strikes.
The higher the velocity, the higher the hydrostatic pressure upon impact and therefore more explosive results.
>>28544371
Okay, going with what I know and understand an 8 grain pellet traveling at 8276 fps will generate 1214 ft lbs of muzzle energy, about equal to hot .44 Magnum from a handgun or 5.56 from a 16" barrel in a much smaller area.
Something that small moving that fast will have to made of something pretty hard, at least brass or maybe steel or it will disintegrate leaving the barrel. It's be a great penetrator, but would likely punch neat holes in flesh unless it hit bone.
>>28545225
>rats
Is that what they call interns nowadays?
>>28544874
.460 Rowland is cool and all, but it requires sticking a big ass brake on the muzzle to work with a 1911 or Glock. .45 Super requires changing the recoil spring.
>>28545308
Shoot a watermelon with a subsonic .22 then shoot it with a .223. By your theory the ,223 will make a cleaner hole. But we both know that's not true. Go ahead a repeat it with a steel core bullet, and you will still have a mess.
>>28545387
The .22 would bounce around the inside of the melon tearing up the insides though, like a human skull and brain :^)
>>28545387
Yeah, but the flesh of the melon is more rigid than human flesh. It'll react differently to the shock wave than animal tissue. By the same point, fmj .223 tends to punch neat holes in flesh as well. Soft tip .223 is a whole other story.
10mm auto really is the future
>>28545387
After a certain speed, it doesn't matter what caliber or bullet type you shoot them with.
>>28545505
I want 10mm auto Magnum chambered in one of the new aluminum framed Deagles.
>double stacked 15 to 18 round five inch 3 lb Desert Eagle equivalent to .41 Magnum
>>28543904
>.40 S&W is the worst of both
Not really, it has more energy than either.
Is there a material for bullets better than copper jacketed lead?
>>28545636
Solid gold
>>28545663
in 4.2mm?
>>28545663
I know this is a troll reply, but gold has similar weight and malleability to lead. It'd work just fine, but not be "better".
Tungsten, depleted uranium, or sometimes steel with Teflon coating are all great, especially for AP and barrier penetration.
Those are all illegal for civilian use in most states, and maybe some Geneva shit applies too.
>>28545636
Probably. In terms of cost and availability? No, lead & copper do well for acceptable prices.
DU pistol rounds would be cool but toxic as fuck and you'd always overpenetrate.
>>28545717
So if you really wanted to be a rich bastard, would soft nosed gold bullets work?
.357 Magnum is hands down the best pistol cartridge.
Now if we could make an unrimmed version it would quickly popularize and be used over every current popular (see: subpar) cartridge available.
>>28543904
9x19mm NATO
>>28543904
9x18 Warsaw Pact
>>28546134
I love the shit out of .357 and think its amazing, but not even I believe everybody would just adopt a cartridge like that overnight. .357 Sig isn't really going anywhere good either.
7.62 X 25 Tokarev
>>28544401
KE=0.5(MV^2)
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/energy/Lesson-1/Kinetic-Energy
>>28546238
I was being facetious about adoption of course. .357 Mag is, in my opinion, ballistically superior to handgun cartridges that people typically carry.
.357 Sig is just too damn expensive. And with so many cops going away from .40 and .357 Sig back to 9mm it doesn't seem like widespread use will ever happen.
I think 9mm is basically entrenched as the standard carry round. It's small enough to have good capacity, still has deep penetration, and is very common to begin with.
>>28544036
Money reasons...less lead and brass, less pennies. 9mm is for Jew budget managers of large federal agencies.
Meanwhile small organizations like the Air Marshals use .357 Sig because it's so expensive to pad their operational budget. The Air Marshall have been known to realize their job is not that important and just view it as traveling across the country and drink hard and party on the tax payers dime.
You'd think a high penetration round would be a bad choice for inside an aircraft...forget depressurization, just over penetrating the perp/terrorist suspect and then going through a few innocents sitting a few rows forward or a stewardess or hitting the pilot.
Since most people on planes don't wear armor, even the non military only 5.7x28 would be a good option for accurate pin point shots in a possible hostage/human shield situation and not damage the plane or kill other crew or passengers.
>>28544064
What's better 180 or 165 for .40S&W for recoil and kaboom avoidance?
I hear some say 180 is softer recoil, but 165 is safer?
>>28544471
I know right? I mean during the civil war, most American civilians had lever action, pump action and bolt action rifles while the US army was still using a glorified musket.
>>28544874
From the thumbnail I thought the text said "nothing personal kid".
>>28546486
You mean the Confederacy
The Union had enough industry to have all the fancy rifles and lever actions that they wanted
>>28545717
Gold is nearly twice as dense as lead.
>>28546532
>The Union had enough industry to have all the fancy rifles and lever actions that they wanted
on paper yes, realistically the production time and logistics prevented a lot of Union soldiers from ever getting their hands on the significantly improved firepower available to them.
You also forget that much of the Confederacy was built and funded on the backs of an aristocratic upper class that could provide themselves technologically superior weapons, if not simply build them.
Your average joe confederate was poor as dirt though
>>28543974
"Properly designed hollow-point ammunition - regardless of caliber - all perform very close to each other when you take expanded diameter and penetration depth into account"
>>28544446
Puts too much stress on frames and wears out barrels fast
What about Osmium bullets?
>>28544532
you are correct. but nobody except for you and me know it
>>28545717
It'd be a Hague convention thing
>>28543904
THE 9 FOOL full metal APC
>>28543904
>9mm is too small
Have you ever got shot by one or seen someone who got shot by one? It is the best all around pistol round, shut the fuck up already you nofunz faggot.
8mm Nambu
>>28547671
Lol9mm
>>28543932
This x1000.
>>28547826
10x1000mm? That's fucking wicked.
>>28547710
I like you.
>>28544883
this is bullshit..
Soviet Podbyrin 9.2mm is world's most powerful pistol.
>>28547909
9.2xwhat?
>>28547909
desert eagle had love child with beretta?
>>28547909
>>28547832
R.I.P your wrists.
>>28547875
Did the fucking nuke not clue you in, dumbass?
>>28546268
>1500-1900 fps with various loads and barrel lengths, pistol/carbine
>bullet weight similar to 45 acp
>can penetrate body armor at close range and has similar ballistics to 5.56
What more can you ask for? This is my favorite pistol round besides .357 magnum
>>28545717
nah Geneva shit only applies to soft and hollow point
![five_seven_large[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/roNcGYw.png "five_seven_large[1].png")
>>28543914
The five-seven shoots rifle style bullets.
>>28545382
It's not that it's required, it's just that the gun will blow up without it.
>>28543904
>using anything other than 7.62x54r
>Mfw
>>28549896
The fiveseven is also shit at what it does
5.7 is only good out of a P90 length barrel
>>28549863
It's not actually the Geneva convention, its the Hague
>>28544955
>the Carl Gustav isn't a rifle
>>28544924
>>28544837
You're both wrong.
F=ma
>a!=v^2
F=(.0005)(2520)=1.26N
1.26N~=punch from grade school kid
HOWEVER
pressure cuts holes in shit
1.26N/.02025m^2 = 62kg/cm
This will obviously hurt like fuck and punch a hole approximately .177" in diameter. It won't go through bone, as bone is capable of much better pressure resistance, bit your soft tissue is fucked.
You now know.
>>28549776
>Comparable bullet mass to .45 ACP
Try 60 grains less at minimum, Anon.
7.62x25 is soviet .357 SIG. It goes fast and penetrates like the dickens. Unless you load JHPs because you don't want to shoot through the mugger, the wall behind him and the brainpan of the clerk beyond that... in which case it will sometimes expand to the diameter of .45 ball and sometimes not lose the jacket in the process.
