Are shotguns in warfare obsolete?
Rifles just seem to be better in every way except opening doors
>>28541562
Yes.
>>28541562
No.
>>28541562
No.
>>28541574
>>28541578
>Still 3 posters
Anon you fucked up
>>28541562
Were shotguns even a major weapon in warfare besides momentary meme applications (i.e. Trench Gun)?
>>28541562
Great for door breeching
>>28541562
Nothing like an Auto slug slinger for room to room cleaning.
pic related
>>28541588
Maybe.
>>28541598
Cannons, grape shot out of Arquebuses
Do not underestimate the power that full bore buckshot brings to the table, and the slug is dramatically more powerful than most people presume.
Pretty much door openers. It would be nice the mil went with a simpler, smaller shotgun instead of having guys tote around such large shotguns.
>>28541598
They were lightly used in Vietnam, sometimes with flechettes, and I think sometimes with duckbill chokes. But this was momentary use like you suggested
why not put rfile on shotgun
best of both worlds
>>28541692
weight
>>28541692
M1014 with an M4 mag? Is this even possible?
>>28541598
>momentary meme applications
What do you think the word "meme" means?
>>28541685
For every sword, there is armor.
What if the door looks like wood on the outside, but actually some smarty put a 1/4" to 3/8" steel plate around and in the door?
Would the shot bounce back and whack the intruder who is trying to do something nefarious?
Any military folk can speak up on breaching standard metal business grade doors like the ones found in businesses or schools?
I'd say shotguns with barrels longer than 14" and stocks aren't really useful because the small shotgun will breach just as good as a goose-gun while taking up so much less space and weight.
There's really nothing better than a shotgun with #12 birdshot or breaching loads if you want to open a lot of doors and locks. Sure you can use explosives but they're generally slower to apply.
There was that door breaching rifle grenade, but you can carry a ton more shotgun shells than rifle grenades.
Warfare, maybe. But I have a hard time thinking of a better weapon for indoors CQC than a full auto 12 gauge like an AA-12 CQB (the 13" variant). Totally impractical to carry for a soldier, but for a SWAT team or counter-terror operation (or you know, home defense if we didn't have faggy laws) it could be baller as fuck. Assuming there are no hostages.
Ofc. Even the guy with shotgun only use it for door breach
>>28542611
Frankly a high caliber (that is to say, .45 or 10mm or something of equivalent meatiness) SMG would be preferable. Auto shotguns tend to be massively heavy and bulky, especially when they have a big drum. The AA12 for example weights as much as a SAW. SMGs are much more point-able (imo) and the ammunition can be carried in greater quantities for equivalent weight and significantly less space.
>>28542716
I don't know, I'd just go with a compact carbine if I were going to go that route. SMGs seem really pointless to me unless you need something smaller than a shorty carbine for confined spaces or concealed carry.
Imagine an AA-12 with 3" #4 buckshot. That's 41 projectiles per shell, 20 shells in a drum, firing ~4 times a second. Heavy, but you sure do throw more projectiles than any other option.
>>28541601
Yes there is.
It's called a carbine.
A shotgun is as much a weapon as a ka-bar.
They're a tool first and foremost.
>>28541562
So much teens in here who played too many video games. Shotgun is a devastating war tool, today and forever. Slugs are good for massive distance. possible 100m
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMVvr3UjLqA
>>28542927
This.
Afghan "doors" are a joke anyway, mostly corrguated aluminum. A running start is all it took to get through them.
The shotguns were loaded with some riot rounds we found at the AHA and given to the vehicle gunners to keep the kids off the trucks.
>>28542997
>100 meters
>massive
You're now keenly aware that 600 meters is an easy shot for an m240.
>>28543014
I'm going to assume that a beanbag round would be pretty bad for a skeletal Afghan kid's health.
>>28541562
I think having an all purpose smoothbore lightweight weapon attached to the standard rifle, which could fire off shot, slugs or even explosives would be ideal.
Why choose between grenade launchers, breaching shotguns or anti materiel rifles when you could have an universal launcher?
>>28543053
When you hear "beanbag," you think "beanie baby," not... "internal bleeding."
>>28542157
Not military, but typically slugs are lead or frangible, meaning they break apart and lead splatters, so basically you don't REALLY have to worry about ricochet
>>28542997
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMVvr3UjLqA
Notice the distance at 10:10 the slugs are destroying cinder block
also good long rang slug shooting, that is literally flooring steel targets at.
starting at about the 11:00 mark he does some long distance, smooth-bore shotgun shooting. both slug and buck.
please /k/ live in reality. The shotgun is the most versatile and potent weapon available. the distance and knock down power of slugs can be coupled with the bird and buck in the same weapon, at the same time, at will.
you could blast doors, obstacles and vehicles apart with it. destroy terrestrial targets indefinitely
Shells are in infinitely supply at virtually any store you can find, for excellent prices.
even in europe, shotgun shells can be found.
>>28543064
A grenade that small isn't really that useful
http://www.comeonengland.org/2015/09/21/outnumbered-sas-hero-kills-six-jihadis-with-shotgu/
>Pic related what he used
>>28543113
>for excellent prices
Yeah nah fuck off.
>>28543114
Use 4 gauge, single shot
>>28541601
>Slugs
>Room clearing.
>>28543138
Or you could just use an m203 almost at that point.
>>28542611
>12 gauge auto shotgun for home defense
>dispatch intruder
>interior wall completely demolished
>wife killed by pellets penetrating wall
>computer destroyed by ricocheting pellets
>tv no longer exists
inna apartment:
>neighbors on both sides, above, and below all injured, walls destroyed, tvs shot, property damaged
The reason it's hard for civilians to automatic weapons is because of "it looks cool!!!" dumbasses like you. Overpenetration is a serious concern when choosing a home defense weapon, and the reason why small-gauge shotguns are generally better for this purpose.
>>28543113
.308 also "floors" people and it has the benefit of not being as thick as my thumb and coming in convenient 20 round mags. Regardless, hitting hard is wholly irrelevant when most of the shots you fire are at an unseen target of indeterminate location, so an eight round tube of heavy shells really cant compare to 20 rounds of .308 or 30 of .223.
>>28543014
>>28543053
Goddamn, I hope he never shot any fucking kids with a beanbag round.
>>28543257
>Overpenetration is a serious concern
Please cite a single case in which someone was injured due to overpenetration.
>>28543334
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/cop-serving-eviction-notice-kills-12-year-old-pennsylvania-girl-n495356
>>28543113
Just live well. Common sense has no place here.
>>28543377
The father pulled a gun on the cop right infront of his daughter. 100% his fault.
fucking gun-baiting journalism. The father got his daughter killed. completely and 100% his fault. also. has nothing to do with "shotguns" and will completely and utterly derail the thread.
>>28543334
wish you would have just stayed out of the thread
>>28543434
You asked for overpenetration, that was overpenetration.
>>28543261
No one type weapon is "better" than the other
Specific tool for specific job
>>28543174
Find me 40mm buckshot first
The XM-25 seemed to do fine with 25mm
>>28542157
>>28543100
Breaching rounds...
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/5rds-12-gauge-fiocchi-demolition-doorlock-breaching-ammo
>>28543485
>Find me 40mm buckshot first
M576 Cartridge, more recently beehives that use mulitple .22 rounds using a 40mm shell as an inner barrel.
>The XM-25 seemed to do fine with 25mm
The XM25 is 25mm specifically because anything less was deemed too weak to be useful, hence why they changed it from its original 20mm.
>>28543257
I live in the woods, anti-funs faggot.
>>28543285
Nah, never had a chance to. Just pointing them at the little shits trying to steal shit did the job.
>tfw knowing what it would do to them, but higher approved of it becuase "muh less lethal"
>>28543261
Maybe in a war zone with clear ROE, but in any real world scenario target identification should be on ones mind, unless your a git off my land deer stand fud. The ability to knock down a target even wearing plates is useful, blunt force trauma is still a thing with slugs. The ability to expose your self once to put 6-9 projectiles in a space the size of a dinner plate as opposed to pulling a trigger that many times fighting recoil each round shouldn't be argued. A majority of engagements will happen with in 75 yards bout a city block. Not to mention moving targets, or moving shooter (vehicle)aster race. Best improvised mortar/rpg in history, go to diy hand grenade of all time.
6 pellets 00buck X 6 shells = 36 rounds down range btw.
I hear your argument and reply with TLDR.
>>28541685
Only the Marines carry a full size scattergun. The Army is pretty much down to a short barreled pistol grip mossy 500, and it is exclusively used on doors.
Shotguns are way more a tool than a weapon. Capacity is a big negative for one. I'd rather have 30 rounds than 8 in any situation. Range is another issue. Sure slugs have decent range but while your being ambushed from a treeline 120 meters away and you have breaching rounds or buck shot in your tube good luck getting to switch to your slugs. Shotguns have a place in combat. But definitely not as a primary weapon. And for house clearing I want something with lots of rounds that is easy to point quickly that I can get multiple rounds on target quickly. Just my opinion.
>>28542611
You are now aware that the cyclic rate on ALL f/a shotguns is so ridiculously low most standard semi shotguns can actually be fired faster.
Specifically the AA12 and its 300rpms.
>>28542892
So imagine an AA12 firing more than twice as fast as its actually capable of?
K then.
>>28542157
Breaching rounds are more like metal powder than traditional shot. I don't imagine they'd ricochet much
Anyone who even brings up the AA-12 is a CoD kiddy and needs to fuck off back to /v/.
>>28543113
Elmer pls
>>28542916
>fuck I got the short bus rifle.....
Smg is better
>>28544094
Agreed. Pointless meme gun that deserved to get dumpstered.
>heavy
>giant magazines with low capacity
And most importantly:
>virtually no advantage over a semi-automatic
>>28541598
>momentary meme application
Look mom I'm fitting in and saying the cool words my internet friends say!!
>>28542716
>10mm smg
You were born in the wrong time my friend.
>>28543931
Apart from dealer sample saiga/vepr, the AA12 is pretty much the only thing out there. There's that chinkshit I guess, but the list of non-prototype FA shotguns is enough for one hand.
AA12 is a joke though no mistaking that.
>>28543257
>The reason it's hard for civilians to automatic weapons is because of "it looks cool!!!" dumbasses like you.
but that's wrong, you assclown.
NFA exists because of fat wops like pic related.
>>28544954
FA on a shotgun is a solution in search of a problem, that's why it's shit.
There's barely a reason for Saiga 12s if I'm being quite honest.
>>28542716
>>28544705
FBI pls go
>>28543153
This
Shotguns will only have an application to warfare if its beltfed. Otherwise no. Pic unrelated.
Who cares? They're extremely relevant inside of the 10 feet between me and a smashed window into my apartment.
Shotguns have uses in jungle warfare.
You see the slightest glimpse of the enemy in the jungle, shoot over there with some buck shot and you have him.
But that would only be viable for special operations in small man teams. Ever other situation it's probably easier to have 20 guys spraying full auto at everything.
Enter Vietnam.
>>28543600
Fucking fiocchibois. I always thought they had good ammo, but it turns out it's kinda bleh.
Anyway OP, I sort of agree with what most of the guys here are saying. A shotgun is too big, too heavy, and too cumbersome to really be a good choice over most other small arms. It's still a very deadly and effective weapon, but we have better options now.
I guess I could see it being mounted on something with a super large mag or belt and used in a thick environment like a jungle to just mow down enemies hiding closeby in the brush. I guess that would be cool.
>>28541562
Anyone know what optic is on the M16 in this photo?
>>28545645
That would be pretty fucking neato, anon.
I would say all the types of shells would make them relevant for law enforcement at any rate
>Beanbag to end a standoff maybe
>Slug for some guy fucked on pcp?
>>28541562
They are very useful for breaching, which is itself very useful in urban warfare
>not using the PPSH for room clearing
>>28548128
heck of a shotgun
>>28543113
>versatile
People say this as if anybody EVER uses birdshot for defense. No, you have buckshot and slugs. Everything else is garbage.
>>28545972
Could you just imagine all of the foliage foofing into the air as hundreds of lead balls mangle everything within 50 yards. Yea, belt fed and like 600rpm fire rate. What a devastating machine.
>>28548812
I have seen gel tests with 4" of penetration from bird shot, but I've also seen the redneck videos with people just blasting chunks of beef as well. I do not want to be on the receiving end of birdshot because I think it highly likely I would shortly bleed out from the tissue damage.
But it's a non-starter anyway, because multiple videos have already shown nothing lighter than target loads stops in drywall. So why settle for bird shot at that point when you could just use buck shot instead?
>>28546361
This is the thing that keeps them relevant- ability to (relatively quickly) change their load. You can go from non lethal to lethal, incendiary to whatever.
The fact that they are breaching makes them useful to have around, but as other anons point out they have niche applications.
Against unarmored enemies they would perform well, but so does basically any other gun.
>>28548128
>be me
>be red orchestra 2
>hear Germans shit talking in room
>YOU ARE TO HEAR ABOUT GLORIOUS DRUMS OF RUSSIA
>do my best russian "UUUURRAAAAAAAAAA"
>rush into room spraying and praying
>have two niggers with nuggets follow behind me
>i get rekt
>but there are 7 dead krauts around me
>rest of team mop up floor
No. The U.S. Army is going to police foreign countries for a long time.
I imagine they'll need shotguns to go from non-lethal to lethal for when they're on those missions.
>>28543127
First AR shotgun I've seen that doesn't look like trash
>>28542997
>massive distance. possible 100m
>massive distance
>be citizen of foreign country
>be in my house
>invaded by americans
>they shoot me with american shotgun
>I run away
>slug gets slower really fast like
>I only get the faster
>Shotguns for breaching
>Shotgun mortar trick
Of course it is
>>28545945
Leupold hamr
>>28541598
If you consider the blunderbuss or other flintlock like weapons that were used to shoot gravel/nails/shot etc. Shotguns than yes but during ship to ship boarding and sorts centuries ago.
