What are the laws on owning and carrying handguns in Canada?
You can carry a gun when you are RCMP on duty... the end
>>28493069
you can't. period. guns are banned, idiot
>>28493076
I'm an idiot for asking questions and trying to educate myself, okay.
I know that some people own hunting rifles here, so not all guns are banned. Further details, anyone?
>>28493069
Authorization to Carry can be issued, but is limited to "protection of life, that an individual be in imminent danger and that police protection is insufficient." good luck with that, or for armored car personnel under penal code 98-207(3) subsection a), for wildlife protection (while working) and occupational trapping under subsections b) and c)
What is Seiba doing in Canada?
>>28493110
Is there any form of legal armed home defense in this fucking country? What about shotguns?
>>28493114
She wanted to try poutine.
>owning
get r/pal
get membership @ range
buy pistol
get att
collect pistol
transport only within limits of att, shoot only at range
>carry
ILLEGAL
though people do it if they're in the middle of nowhere, or willing to risk being rudely penetrated by the long dick of the law
>>28493134
look up s.34 of the criminal code
self defence with a firearm can be justified, but it is not a /right/ and firearms are not to be owned for the purpose of self defence.
>>28493150
>firearms are not to be owned for the purpose of self defence
I thought Canada was supposed to be good
>>28493150
it's ultimately up to the judge, but the Canadian judges have a tendency to be anti gun (a case where a man was indicted because he "accidentally" hit a thief that was (from what I recall) riding off in one of his ATV's and the guy was in pursuit with his rifle when he hit the guy while he was using the gun "in a show of force"
You can consider this to be an anecdote considering I don't have the info on the case, but even then, its clear that if there is a reasonable doubt that you didn't need to use the gun for self defense, you're fucked
>>28493137
Sorry, what does r/pal and att mean? New to /k/
>>28493150
Any historical precedents you know of I could look up?
>>28493134
You pretty much are bound by duty to retreat. There is no set in stone "you can employ lethal force in self defense" and expect to be taken to task if all other options are not taken according to the magistrate that hears your case, so pretty much a knife is already in your belly and you weren't able to choke the intruder with your intestines so you had to resort to a gun.
Read up on David Chen and the Lucky Moose where he and his employees apprehended a thief in their store, the bad guy plead guilty, and the employees were charged with kidnapping and assault.
>>28493212
This fucking country man. The crown even cut a deal with the thief.
Are there any Canadians on /k/ that can offer their perspective on what to do?
>>28493159
in canada you need to keep all your guns in bags/locked up at all times and if other people steal em you get chard for like negligence or some shit
>>28493159
canada /= montana x 10
>>28493195
restricted possession and acquisition license
authorization to transport
>>28493195
not by name off of the top of my head
there was an instance where a man's house was broken into, and he ran down to his basement, unlocked his safe, got out his gun, loaded it and shot the intruder. during the trial the RCMP didn't believe him, so they timed him redoing the events of the break-in to see if he really could get to his safely stored firearms quickly enough. i think he was acquitted in the end.
then there was another guy who's house had been broken into a few times, so he moved his guns into his bedroom or something like that. while they were technically secured, locked innasafe and such, he made them so readily accessible that the court believed he was laying in wait of the criminals. aka he was planning to shoot them when they came back and trying to make it seem like he was acting lawfully.
then there was this other case where this 80 year old wheelchair bound guy shot and killed his daughters boyfriend because he was abusing her so badly the old guy thought he was going to kill her next time it happened. he was convicted but only got a few years probation or something like that.
>>28493192
>reasonable doubt that you didn't need to use the gun for self defense, you're fucked
pretty much this
s.34 of the ccc lays out a bunch of different factors that help the court determine whether the accused's acts were justifiable as self defence. eg its much more reasonable for an old granny to use lethal force against an unarmed intruder than it would be for an MMA master to use lethal force, because the MMA guy could have probably overpowered the attacker empty handed, or maybe with a baseball bat or something.
bottom line, you're better off buying security cameras, better locks, an alarm system and other deterrents than figuring out ways to circumvent the law
>>28493266
>first two anecdotes
I've heard about stories like these for years, and I thought it was just people exaggerated. This stuff is sickening.
>bottom line, you're better off buying security cameras, better locks, an alarm system and other deterrents than figuring out ways to circumvent the law
Are there any effective non-lethal weapons that are actually legal? Besides obvious options like... baseball bats and MMA, I guess.
>>28493195
I'm pretty sure RPAL is restricted possession and acquisition license and I can't remeber what ATT is off the top of my head, something transport something maybe
>>28493246
>Are there any Canadians on /k/ that can offer their perspective on what to do?
Live out in the sticks and keep a 6' deep trash pit ready?
>>28493212
>so pretty much a knife is already in your belly and you weren't able to choke the intruder with your intestines so you had to resort to a gun.
Not quite that bad. You're allowed "reasonable" force, which means the other party must escalate the situation before a firearm is considered reasonable. B&E is an escalation, so someone attacking you in your own home is two escalations and pretty much an allowed situation for using a firearm in self defence.
>>28493300
melee weapons, i suppose.
very few criminals would do a b/e theft armed with guns, becauase if they get caught the penalty skyrockets compared to a classic b/e. the safest thing to do is just hide out somewhere in your house and call the police.
because we don't have the same population density and most civilians aren't armed, the officers here are generally much less twitchy than those in the usa, and the response times are better even in big cities. you can pretty well count on them showing up on time. and, living in a rural environment is a defence in itself; few home invasions occur because the criminals don't have many exit routes and there's usually less worth stealing anyway.
just dont live in a shithole like edmonton or winnipeg. there's a reason crazy tok guy exists.
>>28493300
>Are there any effective non-lethal weapons that are actually legal?
Bear spray. It's legal to buy, own, carry and keep readily accessible. Just remember the phrase "it's for dogs, officer."
It's considered non-lethal, so the legal repercussions for using it on a person are much, much less serious, especially if you were attacked in your own home.
>>28493105
>so not all guns are banned. Further details, anyone?
Not all here is the list of banned by names
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-98-462/fulltext.html *Note that part 2.1 CZ and Swiss arms was repealed... for now.
>Short list of prohibited firearms.
Handguns in 25 and 32 Caliber (expect one type used in Olympic shooting)
Handguns with barrel length less than 110mm (4.2")
Select fire and firearms converted from select fire.
Anything mentioned by name in the previous link.
>Restricted firearms (Requires RPAL can only be shot at licensed ranges)
Handguns that aren't prohibited
AR-15 (any model)
Short barrel semi-auto rifle/shotgun (> 480mm/ ~18.5" barrel length)
Short rifles/shotguns (>660mm/~26" Overall length) basically short shotguns with folding stocks are the few things that fall into this category.
>Non-Restricted firearms (Requires PAL can be shot on private property [or crown land] in areas that allow the discharge of firearms basically rural land)
Semi auto with an OAL of +26" and barrel of +18.5"
Manual action with an OAL of +26" (bolt, level, break, pump)
>Antique (No licence required not considered a firearm unless used in a crime.)
See the attached chart because its complicated as fuck.
>>28493372
Crazy tok guy?
>>28493395
How would using bear spray in an enclosed space work? ...I'm just guessing, but it does not sound like a great idea.
>>28493491
I'm sorry, I'm a neophyte to the world of firearms.
Prohibited means you aren't allowed to own them under any circumstance, correct? Seems obvious, but just want to make sure.
Can I interpret 'non-restricted firearms' to mean, basically, hunting rifles and shotguns?
>>28493531
Non restricted is anything that doesn't fall into restricted category. It can be anything from single shot shotguns to FN FS2000 pic related.
Yes prohibited cannot be obtained anymore. You needed to own one before the ban.
With the exception of 12.6 prohibited handguns which can be passed down directly in your family.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/collector-collecteur-eng.htm
>>28493557
Ah, grandfathered, like in the US, got it.
You seem impressively knowledgeable, Anon... what would you recommend as a discrete, legally obtainable, restricted handgun for theoretical worst-case scenario home defense in this country? I'm in Toronto, if it makes a difference.
I know absolutely nothing about guns, and would prefer something as easy to use and maintain as possible. Would be very grateful for a recommendation. Open to suggestions from anyone else as well.
>>28493612
Ruger LCR loaded with Speer Gold Dots, if they can be had north of the border.
>>28493612
Depends on budget handguns are not cheap here you may be better off going with a shotgun.
Anyway heres cost breakdown
Course $150 ($260 for combo pal and rpal course)
Licence $60 (+$20 for rpal)
Cheap shotgun setup $300-500
Cheap handgun setup $500-800 (Unless you want to go crazy tok guy route then $180-$200)
Cheap shotguns
Remington 870 and clones $300-500
Mossberg 500 and clones $400-500? (Not sure on prices for these)
Cheap handguns I would recommend
Ruger SR9 (Cheap and reliable) ~$500
Glock 9mm not big on glocks so not sure which model is the shortest we can get here (Expensive but reliable cheap mags) ~$800
Tokarev (Cheap and cheap ammo, thin profile) ~$180
1911 (Limited to 10 rounds for handguns so .45 is a more viable option than in the US) $300-500
>>28493630
>Ruger LCR
Unfortunately not, It would have to have a 4.2" barrel to be legal.
But as Phil said you can get good hollowpoint and SD ammo here but expect to order online and pay out the ass for it.
>>28493672
That is extremely helpful Anon, I appreciate the breakdown.
I am going to investigate the pistols first, but since the iron is hot...
I don't have much money, so I think I'd like to go on the cheaper side. It's important enough though that I'd prefer to eat ramen and frozen veggies for a month if I have to.
What are the relative merits of shotguns versus handguns? I'm 5'5 and weigh 160, if that is helpful (recoil?).
I know Toronto cops use hollows, I am honestly shocked they're legal for civilian use here with the way everything else is regulated.
>>28493672
where are you finding a decent 1911 in canada for 300-500?
only glocks in 9mm are the 17 or 19 with threaded barrel.
cheapest quality 9 is the cz75, its $800 before tax at most retailers. 92fs and g17 are both about 900, sig p226 is 1000+, most 1911s are 1000+
>>28493612
dont forget to own the handgun you also need to be part of a gun club/range, so factor in range membership as well.
shotgun is probably the cheapest option. get a mossberg or a benelli, new remingtons have been a bit dicey recently.
but
>restricted handgun for home defence
don't do it anon. you're just asking to get boned. in a home defence scenario youre certain to be apprehended, and then it's up to the court to decide whether you were justified. if they swing the wrong way you're looking at manslaughter with a firearm, which is a minimum 4 years in prison. if you have time to get out a handgun, you have time to run the fuck away
You can also carry if you're a park ranger innadeepwoods.
Source did for 2 years while in the NWT
>>28493723
Hollow points were illegal for a long time. They are legal now for "hunting purposes"
>Shotguns
>Pros
Dead simple
Cheap and Cheap ammo
Easy to clean fix
Non restricted (more lax storage laws, easier to defend in court if you face charges)
No magazine limits on pump shotguns
>Cons
Higher recoil(shouldn't be too much of a problem you can get low recoil buck shot aswell)
Over penetration (This comes up alot and i know jackshit about it but buckshot will most likely go through drywall with considerable force)
Loading speed is slow and you can't leave firearms loaded legally. (DA Grizzly mag fed bypasses this)
>Handguns
>Pros
Small
10 rounds
Fast reloads
Less chance of over penetration
>Cons
Cost + ammo cost is higher
Requires more training to use
Restricted (requires more advanced storage)
>>28493747
Never said decent but I would consider a tuned used Norc or SAM reliable enough
>>28493723
well, when you apply for an rpal you need to two references to vouch for you. you also need a clean criminal and mental health history. then you need to be part of a gun club, and there aren't any in toronto, so you need a car to travel to hamilton or the tri cities or barrie or wherever. on top of all that, r/pals take ages to process for ontario residents.
pistols are definitely the more expensive option, by a few hundred dollars even if you go bottom of the barrel.
handguns vs shotguns, relative merits:
handguns are more difficult to fire accurately, because they're smaller. think of a banana vs a baseball bat, in terms of approximate size. shotguns shoot a heavier projectile at around the same speed as most handgun rounds, so one could say they are more lethal.
within close range, most buckshot won't spread out more than a foot, so they don't have the mythical "spread" that you hear about in movies. the accuracy compared to a handgun comes from the size of the gun: more to hold onto, longer sight radius, stock to rest against your shoulder.
the shotgun will have noticeable more recoil than a handgun. a 12 gauge with 00 buck or a slug will really pop, whereas most people can shoot 9mm all day without flinching.
why do you feel like you need a gun for home defence? most burglaries occur during the daytime anyway, and police response time in toronto is pretty good considering the size of the city.
its worth mentioning that if you do use it, you'll be charged and have to prove to the court that you were justified. if they don't agree with you, then you're looking at 4 years minimum in kingston pen. for manslaughter w/firearm. :/
>>28493747
It's all a purely theoretical scenario, but I am not sure what I would do... jump out my bedroom window breaking through the screen and hoping that my wife has the courage to follow? It's not just my safety I want to guarantee in this theoretical scenario. If I didn't have a family, this would be a non-issue. It's to protect them, not me.
>>28493764
>simple, cheap, more acceptable
It sounds like shotguns are a better choice in this country for home defense.
Also, who/what is crazy tok guy?
Here is a question that is a bit more vague: do home invaders generally bolt if an audible alarm is triggered? Are there stories/known cases of home invaders simply ignoring the alarm, or disabling it and continuing? Maybe this is beyond the scope of /k/, so ignore it if it's not board-relevant, but...
>>28493805
Interesting. Is there some particular reason there are no gun clubs in Toronto? They want to avoid making it easy for people to own guns in the country's largest city?
Re: home defense, we live in a world that is getting scarier by the year. cf. /pol/. Definitely do not want to get into specifics, but I feel like... this is not the Canada I grew up in. I know there are legal realities, I just don't know what else a person could do...
While the anon who seems quite knowledgeable in this thread is extremely naïve, he has good info. Next time though, Google your fucking questions and educate yourself.
As for the knowledge, pussy anon, more people carry than you know, and more people use firearms for self defense than anyone will ever know. There are publication bans on most instances like this.
It is very easy to use a firearm in self defense, you just need excellent articulation, and a lawyer that will cost you. And a fair bit of common sense.
I am speaking from personal experience. You have no reason to believe any of this, but don't take the word of one long winded puss
>>28493840
>who is crazy tok guy
See the Canada General threads. Hes a guy that likes to illegally CC a tokarev and at one time it slipped out of his pocket in a timmies good /k/ stories.
There aren't many around TO because i'd imagine its near impossible to get permits. As well as being in a city outdoor ranges are out of the question leaving only indoor ranges which are subject to a lot more regulations.
>>28493852
Double space go back to reddit so I don't have to hide your posts kthxbia
>>28493870
Boo hoo! Someone typed in an easy to read format!
Someone with actual fucking trigger time and life experiences called me out! Oh no!
>>28493840
crazy tok guy: some guy in alberta who CCs a tokarev to defend himself from dindu edmonton natives. once dropped his gun in a tim horton's bathroom in front of some teenagers because he didn't have a proper holster. the man, the myth, the legend.
home invaders: just like predators in the wild, career criminals want to survive for as long as possible. they pick targets that present the greatest reward and the least risk. it's more effective to install some floodlights and an obvious CCTV system, as well as proper locks, than to quasi-legally arm yourself. most will, but some might risk grabbing a few items near their entry point before running away. and if you shoot them in the back you're basically fugged because at that point youre defending your property not your life.
toronto, being canada's largest and most progressive city, has strict zoning laws when it comes to firearms. no ranges/clubs allowed, and no restricted firearms can be sold. Al Flaherty's downtown got a pass because they've been around for decades, but any other shop thats popped up after the legislature went into effect, like bass pro in vaughn, etc., can't sell them.
>>28493852
i wouldn't say i'm naive, i just wanted to explicitly caution this new anon about the possible ills of gun defence in canada
>>28493852
>You have no reason to believe any of this
You're right. The internet tough guyisms don't make it sound terribly credible.
>>28493870
In a timmy's... of all places.
Reminds me of this, something I found online more than a decade ago pre-Youtube and found again. I don't even know if it's real, but the accents sound Canadian.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDYcfycWVOk
Has /k/ seen this before?
>>28493895
/k/ prefers this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMjnQ1dvlJM
>>28493895
I've been more than happy to meet with anons in the past in my city, and frequently go to the range with several.
If you're near the east coast I can do the same for you, and I'll prove what I've said. I'll even suck your dick
>>28493894
I am guessing he did not have a permit for it?
Again, theoretically, it's not about getting angry because someone's trying to steal my stuff... it really is solely about protecting loved ones. As such, would not shoot someone fleeing.
The deterrence options sound like a very good first-line of defense. I have seen houses that employ those exact two things, so I know what the setup looks like.
Consider these words/phrases: Jamal, Mohammed, ficki ficki, girlfriend/wife
>>28493910
I'll pass on the dicksucking, but wouldn't mind shooting with experienced Anons after some significant online chat to ensure you are not a frightening psychopath. I am friends with a Toronto area cop, was going to practice with him to start with. I'm in metro Toronto.
>>28493925
Carry permits for SD are near impossible to get. The qualification for authorization to carry are at least four attempts on your life and a police chief sign off signifying that they do not have the resources to protect you.
Unless you're a Trudeau they get them for free.
In fact, if anyone wants to add me (OP), and have Steam,
http://steamcommunity.com/id/enoughtoeatathome/ Look for the greatest mayor this city has ever had.
>>28493212
>>28493246
they were found not guilty and the law surrounding citizens arrest was expanded to clear up misrepresentation of its intent. canadian law stands by the ethics that you shouldn't be trying to kill/injure perps just have them arrested and let due diligence take place,innocent until proven guilty. however its the misinterpretation that leaves loopholes.
>>28493212
ah, the classic ricky-oh technique
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa6-yyIT9N4
>tfw cuck UK doesn't even have duty to retreat
Does anyone know where the fuck you're allowed to shoot/hunt in the Halton Region of Ontario? Seems like the only option is to drive 3 hours to crown land or know a farmer
>>28493894
Dropping a gun in public is not OK. He could MAKE a leather holster (Tandy by mail order?) or PVC holster -- see YouTube re the latter made with a heat gun. Heck, I'm so cheap, I made a butt plug for myself out of modeling clay.... Imagination is your only limit...
>>28493531
>How would using bear spray in an enclosed space work? ...I'm just guessing, but it does not sound like a great idea.
Your going to get some too, but hes going to get more, and its better than getting shanked by a hobo in your hallway.
>>28495383
also better than having to deal with firearms charges
>>28493894
In Canada you have a greater ability to defend your land from trespassers than to defend your life.
Your home is your castle and may be defended by basically any level of force. You life is apparently worth a lot less because you need to use the absolute minimum amount of force to defend it if on public property, but if you carry cash for bankers then your life is worth more because you can carry a gun and shoot people who try to rob the bankers. Canada is weird.
If the police notice you applying violence then you'll be charged but if it's in defense of your home then there's about a 100% chance of the charges being dropped or the judge gets spanked by the constitution and the other judges laugh at him. Judges are overall pretty anti-gun but they recognize the sanctity of the home.
>>28494383
He ordered a holster, but he started carrying before it arrived.
>>28493910
whereabouts in the east coast? Freddy here
This thread made me so happy to be an American. No offense, OP, Canada is great, but holy fuck.
What about shooting someone with a crossbow or a black powder flint lock, the flint lock isn't a regulated firearm for those who don't know.
What are these weapons considered by the RCMP or crown?
>>28495655
>but if you carry cash for bankers then your life is worth more because you can carry a gun and shoot people who try to rob the bankers. Canada is weird.
It's something, I don't know if I'd call it weird though
This sounds drastically different in general though from what people were saying earlier about defending yourself in your home, about the min 4 year sentence if you shoot someone who didn't do nothing, let's politely say.
Also, manslaughter... is it realistic to hope to inflict a non-fatal wound on a home invader in a split second decision? Is it even wise? If you blow someone's leg off with a shotgun and they have a gun, they can still return fire and kill you. They won't get away missing a leg, but the purpose of defense is ruined if... you die in the process.
This seems like a very /k/able question. What does /k/ think
>>28497611
It makes me ashamed to be a Canadian. It's madness for it to even be a question about defending yourself in your own home
>>28498903
I doubt you could actually find an antique firearm at an affordable price, and I don't think it really matters what weapon you use, it's what you do with it. I don't think the penalties would be any different if someone you shoot dies because you did it with a flintlock than a Glock. I was thinking of buying a shinken (katana), because I do Kendo and can handle a sword, but... yeah, I doubt it would be any more legally viable. The only difference might be some additional firearms charge if you are charged.
Remember though that the criminal can sue you and will probably win, because that's the fucking ridiculous system we live in.
Canada YES
>>28499651
>This seems like a very /k/able question. What does /k/ think
>Remember though that the criminal can sue you
You know the answer in your heart. Dead men tell no tales.
>>28493069
Are you a cop?
Yes: you had better be on duty
No: don't fucking try to carry anywhere
>>28495655
Show me the statutes/cases on this one... I find this hard to believe.
>>28493069
Owning is fairly simple. Get your RPAL, have a range membership, buy your pistol, wait for transfer so you can take it home, wait for papers to come via snail mail for transporting it.
Carrying is, for all intents and purposes, illegal. Though there are rare ATCs issued. And some people carry regardless, since the chance of being caught is almost nil.
>>28493159
You can use a firearm in self-defence/HD, but the RCMP don't consider it a valid primary reason to own a gun, because they're no fun faggots. >>28493246
>What to do
CC, rip out your pins and do whatever you like. Just be smart and don't get caught.
>>28493751
That is a different ATC. I know a couple trappers who had Wilderness Carry ATCs for when they were on the line. >>28493972
>YOU ARE FREE NOW
>>28493105
join gun owners of canada or canadiangunnutz
we can own handguns but can only shoot them at a range.
>>28493137
I used to work for cash in a stripper bar in a shady part of town. I'd carry a handgun mainly cause walking through that neighbourhood in a bartenders getup at 3am was asking to be held up by a junkie with a syring
>>28493266
Get a dog that can chew someone to death.
They'd probably kill the dog if it ate a thief head, but that'll keep the other thieves away
To get a conceal carry permit. You have to have survived 4 previous attempts on your life. Then prove to the RCMP that they are incapable of protecting you.
>>28499651
Flintlock muskets are absolutely not antiques, Cabelas sells them for $500, which is more than affordable.
Also judging what is affordable or not for me is not something you can assume, don't do that while making posts again.
Just because you're poor doesn't mean I am.
Carrying is banned here, however you can own a hand gun with a restricted liscence, but they are extremely difficult to get. Also silencers, assault mags for anything bigger then a 22, and auto firearms are also banned.
>>28493159
Canada is pretty okay until it comes to firearms and/or self defense
If you don't want to go to jail, rob someone.
If they defend themselves, they are the one to be lynched
>>28498903
RCMP have a bunch of things not treated as firearms, the exception being if they are used in a crime. So using a airsoft pistol to rob someone actually gets treated as you having a weapon. I think if you shot someone with a flintlock it would become a "firearm" like any other gun. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong please.
