why not magazine fed shotguns for standard issue? mass fire capacity, less than lethal, ever reusable shells, incendiary, flechettes, among many other reasons.
>>28419532
feed issues probably. all those different loads have different pressures
>>28419532
short range, bulky ammo, low control-ability
>>28419532
shotgun shells do not do well in a magazine.
Reusable shells?
Nigga you think any decent military reloads anything?
>>28419555
current technology can compensate for a lot of that though
>>28419564
good point on range, but surely 410 wouldn't be too bulky for the benefits?
Less than lethal and exotic ammo does not into semiautomatic.
>>28419597
.410 is for rabbits and squirrels.
>>28419532
Ammo is bulky and extremely heavy.
Max effective range of 200m
Less lethal and breaching rounds do not cycle semis, pumps would be retarded for standard issue primary weapon
Slugs dont reliably penetrate even IIA soft armor point blank, much less anything better. Buckshot is even worse
>>28419532
12ga is most common for military and law enforcement and is about 0.73in diameter, meaning that a box magazine will be limited by practical length before a meaningful capacity is achieved. Shotshells also have rims for the most part, meaning rim-lock is an issue.
The large shotshells also don't lend themselves to double stacked magazines well.
This leaves drums, which are expensive and often have reliability issues.
That said, I like 410 in a box mag.
>>28419532
>mass fire capacity
The mag in the gun you posted holds like 10 rounds, right? Probably 15 at best, which is still half of the 30 you get with a standard AR or AK mag. I'm pretty sure most battle rifles have magazines around 20 rounds.
>>28419532
Shotguns are obsolete asides from opening locks in the modern battlefield.
>>28419690
Double stack .410 when?
>>28419719
>significant rim
Never
>>28419719
Probably too long, brother. Probably too long.
>>28419709
Obsolete or not, I want the fuck out of that
>>28419694
assuming only 3 projectiles per shell, and only 5 shells per mag, that's 15 rounds a mag with only 5 pulls of the trigger,10 men with only one mag apiece would fire 150 rounds with 50 pulls
>>28419779
Except it doesn't work like that. Each shell is a canister, in the case of 2.75" 00Buck, with 9 pellets. These are launched at once, and cannot be aimed individually. They pattern as determined by gun, shell, choke, ect. It doesn't have the sustained fire effect of 9 rifle rounds per shell.
>>28419779
And one goatfucker with a nugget would be able to engage them from ten times thier effective range.
>>28419833
pop smoke and maneuver
>>28419779
What you dont understand though is you dont really have control over where those projectiles are going other than general direction, those projectiles carry a meager fraction of the energy of a rifle bullet, and cant be fired any faster due to recoil orders of magnitude higher.
Also, you get your choice of a single projectile (slug) or no less than 7 (000 buck) to over a thousand (#12 birdshot).
>inb4 hey 5000 projectiles!
They wont break bare skin past 20 feet
>>28419857
Look. A shotgun will kill you from the length of a football field.
A rifle will kill you from a mile away.
There is a reason shotguns, and smoothbores in general, have not been a standard issue weapon since before the civil war.
>>28419532
Just look at it. Imagine trying to fire that thing prone. A huge fucking magazine for just 8-10 shots. Tubular magazines are better for shotguns. Being able to easily top-off the magazine is essential if you have a low capacity firearm.
being plastic they can clip on the breach when it closes
How much COD do you have to play to think that shotguns of any kind could replace rifles on the battlefield.
BTW, most engagements in Iraq and Afghan are over 200 meters.
>>28419709
there is no small arm more lethal inside of a room than a shotgun. just happens to be against most ROE to use them for anything other than breaching.
>>28419968
also, #1 or 00 out of a couple of different tubes simultaneously would be a wonderful way to open up the short leg of a near ambush in lieu of crew served weapons
>>28419940
I genuinely don't play video games much, but it seems the US is focusing on urban conflict so I figured a platoon with shotguns and an sdm or four would be more effective in that role
>>28419709
That's a phone screenshot of an image
C'mon man
>>28419575
what is lake city?
>>28420029
What advantages would shotguns have over carbines in urban warfare? Shotguns typically need at least a 20 inch barrel to get good ballistics. That's awkward to carry around in tight spaces.
>>28420055
That is more the case with sporting loads, which have slow(er) burning powders due to pressure concerns, especially with older shotguns. Target loads are still shit out of 18.5" barrels.
>>28419564
>short range
Hi call of duty
>>28420055
not sure where you get your info from. Shotgun powder burns quickly, you don't need a long barrel at all
>>28420029
>US is focusing on urban conflict
What, we focus on wherever our enemy is at. Afghan was mostly open areas with engagements 200 plus meters. And rifle are better for urban conflist anyways. You're only thinking of indoor engagemnts, What about shooting from rooftops or into windows across the street. or downthe street for that matter. shotguns are very limited. meanwhile carbines are effective from 5ft - 500 meters
>>28420097
Hi retard. Just because they don't just tickle enemies past 10 feet doesn't negate the fact that the effective range is a fraction of even a small carbine.
>Heavy large ammo with short effective range, especially considering most engagements in afghan/Iraq happened at 250m+
>Slow to operate if using pump action, heavy and bulky if using mag fed
>Only useful as a breaching tool, since frag rounds are firecracker-tier, incendiary rounds are a flashy gimmick and anything flechettes do, a rifle could do better
The M1014 is all that is needed. Its light, collapsible and semi, but still spends most of its time on someones back. A shotgun is a tool, not a weapon.
>>28420283
>A shotgun is a tool, not a weapon.
Thank you anon
>>28420168
I was thinking of getting a slug gun and was worried about velocity wrt barrel length for a moment
now I am not
>>28420283
Uh, the m1014 is pretty fucking heavy and bulky as far as shotguns go.
Theres a reason literally everyone other than HURR MUHREENS uses a pistol grip mossy 500 with a ~14" barrel on either a single point sling or pistol lanyard.
>8.4lbs unloaded
Literally 2lbs heavier than an M4
>>28420043
Yeah they have brass collectors all over Iraq, Afghanistan and wherever operations have taken place collecting spent cartridges to be sent back to the US to be reloaded.
>>28420168
Well shit, who knew?
Makes me wonder why there aren't shorter barreled shotguns on the market. Of yeah, government, carry on.
M26 you fucking noobs. Obviously none of you are MPs like me.
We use these with both lethal and non lethal shells. Why dont you posers fucking enlist, fucking 50 year old nobodies.
>>28419532
have to watched any combat videos lately ? Engagement distances are way out of shotgun's comfort zone. A ton of the fighting is nothing like CoD CQC 420 no scoping and more like lets shoot at those tiny dots on the horizon!
>>28419857
>pop smoke and maneuver
From 10x the effective distance of a shotgun? Do tell.
>>28420906
>Obviously none of you are MPs like me.
Well of course not, that would be embarrassing and shameful.
>>28420168
16'' looks like the best comprimise.
>>28419532
What's interesting is that the idea of standard issue assault shotguns was in fact experimented with. Enter the CAWS program and the H&K prototype.
Logic dictated that since all conflicts in the 21st century would be police actions we'd be looking at a lot of close quarters fighting. This was the doctrine of the "3-block war", where a large-scale army would be expected to conduct house-to-house fighting as well as humanitarian aid and peacekeeping in virtually the same place at the same time instead of just blowing the whole place to hell. In that mindset the CAWS is a great weapon. It offers excellent flexibility and firepower. Being able to switch from suppressing a riot to flopping live targets or even ripping apart kevlar with flechettes with the switch of a magazine provides the kind of flexibility they would need in such a dynamic combat environment. Better still, if you could magdump buckshot you'd increase your chances of at least hitting the target, if not necessarily killing them. The H&K entry was even laid out as a bullpup for optimal CQC capability.
>>28421333
But as a concept it proved to be a dead end. Assault rifles already did this job very well. One major disadvantage that would be faced by a group using shotguns would be barrier penetration. Since their weapons are specifically designed to minimize that exact effect in order to limit collateral damage, they are at a major disadvantage fighting bad guys with rifles who would have no problem hiding behind light cover and blowing through if the soldiers attempted to do the same.
Reach was also a constant problem. It's unlikely that one would engage past 100m in urban combat, but never the less it still happened. Not having the ability to engage past said distance (or even at that distance as effectively as an assault rifle can) seceded yet another exploitable advantage to the enemy.
Then you had the bulky ammo. Feeding issues were streamlined using specialized shells, but the individual rounds were still heavy. Carrying more than a hundred would be a real burden which meant the soldiers using such a weapon would constantly need to break engagement to resupply or otherwise be very restrained with their shooting. In other words, they'd give up the "more bullets per bullet" advantage that using shotguns would give them in the first place.
In the end they came around to the idea that while very interesting there was nothing the CAWS program could do that an assault rifle couldn't already do and 75% of the time do much better. Even an SMG could be much handier. The advent of low velocity PDW carbines (in calibers like 9x39mm and .300BLK) gave them the excellent firepower/safety in CQC environments they were looking for anyway, if only in a limited SOF/LE capacity.
>>28420189
Most Afgani buildings are made of mud and stuff. A grenade through the door or window is all you need.
>>28419709
>Shotguns are obsolete
you're fucking retarded.
>https://youtu.be/WV379084djs?t=1m6s
>>28419597
.410 is the .22 of shotguns.
>>28421436
top b8
>>28421333
Well this was interesting enough to screen cap for future use.
>>28421436
>proves nothing
>>28419555
so get a vepr12? if we're solely talking ak shotguns
>>28421489
Have you not watched The Expendibles? The AA12 is a beast, with and without the explosive shells.
>>28421508
Have you seen The Power Rangers movie? The powered mecha armor they drive around makes all small arms obsolete, without explosive shells!
>>28420836
I can definitely imagine smelly brown children darting out to steal spent brass even in the middle of a firefight though.
>>28419532
For what fucking role though?
If it's a guy with an underslung masterkey system, a mag-fed gun seems like a liability. Now the guy has to carry all these fucking things on top of his rifle mags, when it would probably be easier to just have individual shells stuck wherever.
Get a fucking side-saddle on a semi or pump, learn to speed & combat reload. Derrr.
>>28421508
>Weighs as much as a SAW
>Gimmicky long recoil spring gives it a low fire rate and prevents the use of collapsible stocks
>Frag12 is weak, 25mm is the minimum for reliable killing
The AA12 is a bulky gimmick on its own, and worthless compared to its competitors. A Vepr or Saiga with a drum can do literally everything the AA12 can in a lighter more compact package with a much higher potential cyclic rate. Theres a good reason the guy who designed it spent over 40 years trying so market it with zero success.
>>28420906
>Obviously none of you are MPs like me.
Why would I want to be the most despised job in the military?
>>28419770
That's a breacher build done by CDN GUNWORX.
>>28420040
>pump action leaves room for a tube mag
>still uses box mag
WHY?
>>28419532
I'd rather have thirty or more little bullets than ten or so big clunkers, as awesome as shotguns are.
He who throws the most lead wins and shit.
>>28420906
The M26 is probably the most putrid shotgun ever devised. I wish the US mil didn't have a boner for doing everything in-house because an RMb-93 clone would be awesome and actually have a barrel worth a damn
>>28421485
I think you goofed the scaling, anon. Try this one
>>28422247
because conversion kits and DIY shit is fun as hell
Also the page I got that from was something to do with Canada, so there might be some legal shenanigans going on. They can get some cool short barrel shotguns over there.
>>28420097
Call me when you're effective past 200 yards with one, nigger.
>>28419647
How about flechette rounds? Those fuckers penetrate everything.
>>28422573
That's a fair point I suppose.
>>28422702
Less than buckshot.
>>28422702
The common 12 ga flechettes you can buy suck cock. They're packed in the shell every which way and spin around in flight and end up hitting the target sideways. Something like this - all facing normally, long dense darts - would penetration better. Still probably not better than slugs though.
>>28424445
Those are no longer produced nor available for a reason, they sucked just as much as normal flechettes.
One biased test is all we have to go on and then they stopped existing.
>>28419719
>>28419735
>>28419736
>>28426547
>>28426557
I could post drawings of perpetual motion machine patents too, doesn't mean they work.
>>28426557
>picture actually shows rimlock occurring
kek
>>28420040
What shotgun is that?
>>28427286
Dominion Arms Faggotron 12 gauge.
>>28426547
from the thumbnail i thought that was a dragon dildo design document.
>>28426557
wtf man
