>muh stopping power don't real
I just…I don't even…
.45 is a bigger slug. Like, it's a heftier round; it's going to hit harder and kill a person sooner.
How is this even an argument?
Because force is a function of mass and velocity, and .45 is loaded to be slow as fuck, comparatively. However, the same kind of bullet at high velocities wrecks shit, as with magnum revolvers and .45-70. Now fuck off.
F = m*a. either works.
>>28305940
It'll make sense once you take 10th grade physics.
Even though there is an increase of mass, the velocity is still lower. Even if you take that into account, and the fact that this is a bait thread, a difference of less than a millimeter is insignificant unless you missed vitals by less than a millimeter.
Shot placement is 98% of how much damage is done, the other 2% is every other variable.
>>28305940
I'd rather be shot by the 9mm than the .45
If I was shot by either, I'm not going very far in the next few seconds.
If I'm shot by either in the center of my body mass, I'm going down and will need medical assistance.
If I'm shot by either in a vital area, I'm dead or dying without immediate medical assistance.
.45 might just do the job a little quicker than 9mm with all else being equal. At the end of the day, though, if you're trying to maximize damage, why stop at .45? Keep going. You should be carrying a pocket shotgun with a deer slug in it, or a Desert Eagle.
Me? I want a smaller gun with a lot of rounds in it. I want good recoil control. I want it to be cheap to practice with, so I can be as accurate as possible.
95% of bad guys will duck and run if you pull out a .22 handgun.
>>28306019
>If I'm shot by either in the center of my body mass, I'm going down and will need medical assistance.
How quickly will you be going down?
I keep hearing reports that people who are shot with 9mm don't instantly drop to the ground (thereby stopping their attack on you)....but then I see the videos where the cops are shooting guys with knives running at them and it looks like the guys who are shot drop within 4-5 shots from the cop.
>>28305940
Real pic
>>28305940
Because these exist.
Handgun rounds don't kill through "hitting hard"; they kill through making holes in places holes shouldn't be. More holes are better than less holes.
>>28306035
combination of momentum with adrenaline will keep an attacker up until either blood loss or organ/bone damage kicks in. Doesn't matter what you shoot them with.
The component people often forget in this argument is knockdown power. I've seen people take a full mag of 9mm to center mass and be so fucked up they didn't know they were dead yet. .45 because when you need to knock that fucker down so he doesn't have the chance to question mortality. Also I'm pretty sure even newer 9mm +p stuff loses a significant amount of velocity when needing to penetrate soft cover.
>>28306035
Good question. You'd have to be cracked out beyond belief to take a 9mm at close range and keep on charging. That's one reason cops tend to fire a minimum of 2 rounds, and usually keep shooting until the person is down. I'd do the same, regardless of which caliber I'm using.
I think we saw with that black dude who shot the news reporter, he got 2-3 shots in and she still ran away. That was a 9mm.
I still rely on my 9mm, since a person with a couple holes in him and a whole lot of pain won't be much of a threat. If I luck out and put one of those holes into a spot that throws him immediately into shock, all the better.
I don't know if the size of the hole, or the radius of the damage, is going to be significant within the few milliseconds it takes for the body to stop functioning.
Yeah, in an emergency situation, I'd prefer to have .45 rounds penetrating my enemy. But I'd also prefer to have 7.62 blasting their organs out their backside. Or .50 BMG tearing them in half.
Handguns are a compromise from the start. It's really just a balance between power and convenience/control/concealability. It's a personal preference, and the bigger ammo doesn't make you a tougher man.
>>28306056
hydrostatic shock is thing
>>28305940
Physics > fuddscience.
>>28306109
Not in handgun rounds, retard.
>>28306074
This is true. If you ever want proof of that, look at how far deer can go even though they're clearly dead. I heard of one that took an arrow that knocked its heart out the other side and the deer still took off running for a few seconds.
>>28306116
Top kek, the fucking cavemen figured this out a long time ago, boyo.
"If Thog throw bigger rock, Thog make kill easier."
but hey, if you're convinced throwing pebbles at slightly higher speeds is more effective than a rock through the skull be my guest.
>>28306137
Except cavemen didn't have to worry about overpenetration with rocks genius.
>>28306081
Handgun bullets don't knock a man down with kinetic energy alone, the target either falls down from the pain and shock of getting hit, or because you hit something vitally important to staying upright. And in any case the .45 ACP can be made to have a significantly higher, or lower, kinetic energy than 9mm. Simply changing the bullet weight does it (heavier bullet given same powder = less KE).
>>28306137
Bullets aren't thrown rocks, dumbass. Handgun rounds don't beat people to death; they stab them to death.
>>28305953
>force is a function of mass and velocity
F=ma
K=(1/2)mv^2
You are confusing force with kinetic energy, but your argument still makes sense. The hole size can matter, but not really very much.
>>28306124
For some applications slower velocity is better, like for hunting. For self defense 9mm is just as good as .45, and I personally prefer 9mm.
>>28306156
"If Thog make bigger spear, Thog can make kill easier"
but hey, if you're convinced swinging a dagger at slightly higher speeds is more effective than a spearhead through the ribcage then be my guest.
>>28306167
Multiple stabs from a dagger is indeed more effective than a single spearhead through the ribcage when you can apply the dagger or spearhead from multiple yards away.
>>28306179
"Thog can either throw one spear, or throw multiple daggers to get one kill".
Guess which one he's choosing.
>>28306203
The daggers. Because both the spear and the daggers cost pennies each, and Thog is presently directly confronted with a life-or-death situation.
>>28306203
cavemen didnt have daggers dumbfuck holy shit kill yourself
>>28305953
Oh..... let's all shoot 25 grain bullets at 8000 fps, then!!
I'm sure that will would stop humans right in their tracks. Bears, too!!
HOLY FUCK GUYS
Did you know countless millions of projectiles pass through our bodies each second?? And they are going faster than light, too!!!
Duuuude.... I think we are ghosts.
There's just no way we could survive life here.
At least we were smart enough to realize hitting people with smaller rocks is more dangerous than hitting someone with a big rock.
Humanity is smart, guys. We lobotomized thousands of people over decades because the lobotomy is a cure all!! Humans aren't stupid savages, guys. Holy shit, I a tab just opened up and says I won a million dollars!!! FUCK YOU DOUCHEBAGS ENJOY BEING POOR LOL
>>28306245
wtf
>>28306245
The .45 dude has finally snapped.
>>28306245
You havin' a stroke bud? You alright?
>>28306250
>>28306260
Pack it in boys. He's gone somewhere where we can't follow.
>>28306245
Great pasta m8, I'd r8 8/8
>25 grain at 8000fps
Yes please, nuclear paint-chips when?
>>28306245
You do realize that penetration physics and terminal ballistics are two very important things in firearms right? And you realize that a flat nominal analysis of kinetic energy doesn't tell you all that much about what's gonna happen when that projectile hits something?
When you launch any kind of projectile at a human, you have a a window of a few inches with which a projectile can cause damage, also known as the dimensions of the human fucking body.
If your projectile has so much energy that it goes right on through your human body target, it wastes quite a bit of energy continuing on it's merry way off into the distance and into something else.
The 9mm argument is based on the concept that 9mm pistol rounds tend to have just enough energy to enter into the human body with just enough force to cause damage and stop without going right on through and wasting energy. When a projectile stops, a number of things can happen, all of which involve causing considerably more damage to a person.
So read a fucking book you goddamn cretin.
By your argument, we oughta just throw entire fucking airplanes at people since that'll stop em real good and quick because "muh energy"
Any caliber between 9mm and .357 magnum are perfectly fine for defense. Shot placement and accuracy trump Sthoppan powahhh every day. I like 10mm personally, but I can also drive nails with it at practical defensive ranges and am comfortable with the caliber. I wouldn't carry any pistol if it wasn't the case.
>>28306245
>I have been confronted with one instance where less mass with greater acceleration leads to greater effect
>I shall interpret this as a declaration that only acceleration matters
>I flunked high school math and don't understand optimization
>>28306245
No particle with mass travels ftl.
>>28306309
It's ok anon, this guy didn't even get past the first two chapters of classical physics, please don't try pushing modern onto this guy.
>>28306148
Ke=1/2mvv. Phones really need super script options. Ke doesn't translate into energy at target, nor does it account for surface area to deliver the energy to and through the target.
What we all agree on I hope is dead is dead. 9mm is effective at killing so is 45. I carry 13+1 45. I don't see the need to carry the 17 9mm when I train to put my shots on target.
![fuck you].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/f3QgSLE.jpg "fuck you].jpg")
>>28306223
So I suppose something like 10mm, which has a smaller bullet and less powder than Fo'-Five and yet outperforms it, it just a magical concept then, right?
>>28306338
that's a knife not a dagger
>>28306344
dag·ger
ˈdaɡər/
noun
1.
a short knife with a pointed and edged blade, used as a weapon.
>>28306338
THATS A SPEAR TIP
NOT A DAGGER
HOLY SHIT HOW DO YOU CONSIDER THAT A DAGGER, THAT IS NOT A DAGGER
IT IS ALSO MADE FROM BONE WHICH IS NOT A PRIMRAY COMPONENT OF A DAGGER
YOUR "KNOWLEDGE" ABOUT CAVEMEN HAS JUST BEEN LITERALLY BLOWN THE FUCK OUT!
>>28306342
your trolling a guy who probably just an hero'd. R.I.P. in peace Salty .45 anon.
(-_-)7
>>28306360
actually it's a flint knife, retard.
>>28306349
[citation needed]
it is a flint reproduction of a roman knife
its intended use (beyond decoration) is as a tool, not a weapon
it is a knife
>>28306331
Because adrenaline, low light, multiple assailants, and possibly being shot back at wont affect your rounds down range in a real life self defense scenario.
>>28306342
>smaller bullet and less powder
YOULL COWARDS DONT EVEN KNOW ABOUT CAVEMEN
I AM THE REAL CAVEMAN YOULL FAKE CAVEMEN
>>28305953
That's why I don't leave the house with anything less than .45 Win Mag.
>>28305940
Handgun bullet size doesn't matter much because it takes a lot to kill a person quickly and there isn't enough of a difference in bullet size to make a significant difference in that. If you shoot someone with a handgun and they stop trying to kill you in less than 20 seconds it's going to be because they don't want to be shot anymore (which there is no evidence of different handgun calibers making a difference for psychological stops) or because you severed their spine/shot them in the brain.
Article with sources for the claims that the guy makes:
http://www.breachbangclear.com/the-truth-about-stopping-power-anatomy-first/
>>28306373
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger
inb4 "top kek using wikipedia LEL". it's fully cited.
>>28306223
yes they did, also what are "cavemen", neanderthals? You need to specify, else I can not tell you who had daggers and who hadn´t. Im archaeologist..
>>28306245
Holy fuck you are retarded. You are so, incredibly, unbelievably stupid and now I realize I'm being trolled 9/10 fuck you good job
>>28306387
Calm down Charles Bronson.
>>28306277
Now, in space. Satellites are occasionally destroyed by minute particles that end up traveling at immense speed while in orbit around the Earth.
>>28306373
Exactly, it's a knife. And a dagger is a short knife with a pointed and edged blade, used as a weapon.
>>28306245
This is b8 but I'm taking it anyway
KE = 1/2mv^2
And fuck converting the units btw
55 grain @ 3300 fps = 600M gr*fps^2
25 grain @ 8000 fps = 1, 600M gr*fps^2
However, 25 grains at 8000 fps would overpenetrate to such a degree that the kinetic energy delivered to the target would be miniscule.
Consider that 55 grain 5.56 already had overpenetration problems, and here's something with an even smaller diameter moving at 2.5 times the speed.
>>28306478
by such a definition a kitchen knife becomes a dagger if used as a weapon
>>28306401
>A dagger is a knife with a very sharp point
>>28306338 doesn't look so sharp to me
>>28306505
How would You improve the 25 grain projectile?
>>28306534
>by such a definition a kitchen knife becomes a dagger if used as a weapon
Achievement Unlocked! - 'Critical Thinking'
>>28306534
>doesn't look so sharp to me
that's because it's a modern replica, dumbass. real flint knives would've of course been sharpened to a point.
>>28306382
>bigger bullet and more powder
>>28306544
Just making sure it didn't tumble through the air would be a challenge
>itt: retards can't into basic physics
Spoiler alert: any handgun cartridge will fuck up a human. They're not actually that different. Stop pissing all over yourselves trying to win pointless contests.
>>28306644
.25acp confirmed for next gen NATO round. Hallelujah, now we just need to find a replacement for the M16.
Both suck.
>>28306696
.45 still got farther.
If I could carry a rifle everywhere, I would. But it's just not practical.
>>28306703
>.45 still got farther.
That makes no difference. They both made tiny holes. God damn you .45 fags I swear..
>>28306729
>penetration doesn't matter
>>28306505
>>28306544
You'd be surprised as to what you can achieve with a light extremely high velocity projectile, here's a PDF of some research into that including a picture of a pig shot with .22 caliber 17 grain projectiles traveling at 6000 FPS that left a massive exit wound a few inches across along with other completely ridiculous wounds.
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fackler_Articles/wounding_mechanism_projectile_shape.pdf
>>28306748
>9mm penetrated over 20"
>.45 ACP managed to penetrate less than 2" further
>all of this is after going through an intermediate barrier
How much penetration do you think you need?
>>28306785
>need
GTFO commie librul scum
>>28306703
>.45 makes it farther
>overpenetrates worse than 9mm
>i prefer it
kek
>>28305940
>Not using .40
>>28306802
>using a shit round that takes the worst of both 9mm and .45
>>28306802
>neutered 10mm
female FBI agent detected, take your shitty compromise round gtfo.
>>28306245
this is pasta right?
>>28306687
>25 gr.
>.25 acp
>>28305940
Easier to find double stack double action pistols at a cheaper price. Cheaper price and larger verity of rounds available. Honestly .38spc, 45acp, 9mm, and 40 S&W aren't different enough to matter which you are carrying. Lets put it this way if you get shot with either of the four rounds you wouldn't know the difference.
>>28306765
>18 cm long gaping wound
>9cm x 10cm muscle disruption
>those pictures
>ammo manages to produce less recoil than 5.56 or 9mm
>people could be running around firing this shit on full auto in the future
>run over to buddy on the battlefield and realize that his heart and lungs have been pureed and sprayed across the ground a few feet behind him because he got shot twice
>>28306875
Anon get your common sense faggot ass bullshit out of MY shitposting thread
>>28306128
Or you just carry a .357 mag revolver like us real men. Highest percentage of one shot stops, and it can shoot 38 special for training/range shooting.
>>28306901
Hey, when there's a semi-automatic sub-compact .357 carry pistol available you let me know.
>>28306901
>tfw want a .357 mag for CC
>tfw expensive
Probably just gonna roll with some police trade-in .38spc until I get some decent dosh.
>>28306916
https://us.glock.com/products/model/g32
took 5 seconds
>>28306935
magnum, not sig.
>>28306931
Expensive? what? I got my ruger LCR for $350. And that gun is incredible.
>>28306916
https://us.glock.com/products/model/g33gen4
>>28306245
>Oh..... let's all shoot 25 grain bullets at 8000 fps, then!!
>I'm sure that will would stop humans right in their tracks. Bears, too!!
As a matter of fact, 25grain bullets going at 8k FPS would completely, utterly annihilate your shit. Bear's, too.
It would pretty much disintegrate on impact and then continue on its trajectory as a very high energy and density cloud of metal powder, wrecking your shit so utterly and completely the coroner would need a paid leave after dealing with you.
>>28306945
http://www.coonaninc.com/showroom/compact-blackdc-blackmilled/
If you really want 357 mag why wouldnt you just get a snubnose revolver?
>inb4 muh hi cuhpacity
>>28306888
My bad what I meant to say was.
The only people who shoot 9mm are libs because they are anti-gun.
>>28305940
Yeah, but with todays hollowpoints, they all got the same.
>2015 ballistics is much better then 1911
>>28306277
>>28306474
>gauss technology
My body is ready
>>28306419
I would carry a .475 Wildey Mag, but it's not in production.
>>28306948
>>28306967
>actually carrying a snub nose revolver in .357
>thinking that a couple hundred FPS gained is a worthwhile trade off for muzzle blast that's equivalent to a flash bang and will keep you from accurately placing additional shots on target
>>28306765
>>28306884
>>28307027
>>28306277
>>28306474
OH FUCK ITS HAPPENING
>>28305940
shot placement is more important than caliber. Three in the chest from a .380 are more effective than a .45 to the arm.
>>28306687
>25gr = .25acp
Fuck I can't wait for Christmas Break to be over for you fucking kids.
>>28307048
Quiet just let the magic happen.
8000 fps railguns anon.
Imagine.
>>28306847
>>28307048
You would buy an AR in .25acp and you know it.
.40 confirmed for the best blend between slow bulky massive .45 and fast lightweight smaller 9mm.
.40 is best and if you do not own a .40 for daily carry then you are probably a fudd.
>>28307037
>having a grip this weak
>being this much of a pussy
In all seriousness, it really isn't as bad as people think. And if it means I can put someone down for good with one decent shot 99% of the time, I'm ok with it.
>>28306961
See >>28306765, you wouldn't want the bullet to disintegrate and therefore would make it out of harder materials, but that wouldn't keep it from making a ridiculously large wound. The 25 grain bullet at 8,000 FPS that OP proposed would have about 2/3 more energy than the most powerful options tested in that study.
>>28307085
found the limp-wrist.
>>28307068
Till then give me .22LR ++++++P++++++ With solid tungsten bullets.
>>28305940
Yes, .45 is a more lethal round than 9mm.
How hard it hits, in terms of stopping an attacker, refers to a psychological factor, and not reproducible.
However, it will make bigger holes in someone than 9mm given similar bullet construction.
About 60% bigger.
A common claim, as seen here
>>28306975
is that 9mm and .45 have identical performance with hollow point ammunition.
This is of course impossible to achieve, and should be disregarded.
When penetrating a "soft" medium like the human body or ballistics gel with pistol rounds, you need to primarily look at momentum, and cross sectional density.
With fmj rounds, .45 and 9mm penetrate to approximately the same distance, despite .45 having a 60% larger cross sectional density.
This is because the momentum of .45 acp is much greater.
Increasing cross sectional density (what hollow points do) reduces penetration.
So however large your hollow points expand, will have an inverse effect on penetration.
Keep in mind that this is not a 1:1 correlation, because the hollow point round will take time to expand.
So if there is a hollow point .45 round that expands to .70", and a 9mm round that expands to .70", the .45 round will penetrate further if bullet construction and expansion is consistent.
All other things being equal, a .70 caliber 115 grn round will not penetrate as far as a .70 caliber 230 grn round.
9mm has more velocity, but .45 has more gunpowder behind it.
If you were to load a .45 round with the amount of powder of a 9mm, those .70" rounds would then have very similar ballistics.
There are many advantages to 9mm, which are quite obvious.
Higher capacity, less recoil, lower cost, NATO standardization, ect.
But the claim that it's just as lethal as other rounds is silly.
It's even sillier when I see 9mm fans bash rounds like .380, 9x18, ect. as not being powerful enough.
Because apparently in their mind, 9mm is both the minimum and the high watermark of handgun wounding effectiveness.
>>28306948
>>28306967
>snub nosed revolver
Why even fucking bother
>>28305940
>arguing over shitty little handgun rounds
>>28305940
>>28306124
Plebs, the lot of you.
>>28307201
Good arguments.
>>28307234
Don't pay attention to me, I'll just forget the picture.
>>28307201
>muh extra 1/10" bullet diameter
The only difference you're going to notice is that your gun now carries less rounds and has more recoil. See >>28306393
>>28307247
>fails to reach the 12" minimum penetration
>>28306292
>we oughta just throw entire fucking airplanes at people since that'll stop em real good and quick because "muh energy"
I mean, if that's a viable option I'll take it.
>>28307261
The area of a circle grows exponentially larger as you increase the radius.
That is why despite being only about 28% larger in diameter, the .45 has a frontal surface area 60% larger.
Your daily reminder that the most common reaction to being shot by a service caliber handgun is no reaction at all
>>28307285
>implying that would actually make any difference whatsoever in a decent amount of time
I see you didn't read the article that was linked to in that post and prefer to stay ignorant.
>>28305940
At the end of the day 9mm is king.
Why?
Because the best way to kill someone is with a permanent cavity. 45 is a big round yes, and that is to its benefit, but a large shallow hole is garbage compared to a thinner long wound channel.
Ability to create a premanent cavity thus rests in a balance between velocity and size of round, 9mm is the most popular round that accomplishes this. Is it the best at this? No. 357 mag, 357 sig are some of the best, some 10mm loads are pretty fucking alright too, but these rounds are expensive and 9mm is able to do the whole permanent cavity thing very well.
>>28307201
>45 is more lethal
>psychological stopping power
>45 and 9 have identical performance
is it summer time or are you certified retarded?
>>28307349
I'm not going to base my personal defense decisions off of some guy's blog.
And if you don't like the idea that larger bullets are more detrimental to someone's health, you're of course free to carry a 5.7x28mm.
After all, the difference between 5.7 and 9mm is just
>>muh extra 1/10" bullet diameter
>>28307201
>muh lengthy fanboy rationalizations
everything you claim has either failed to be proven or has been disproven.
https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/Abstract.aspx?id=253695
>>28307385
I think you need to seriously reread my post, because you seem confused.
>>28307216
...because they can kill things while being a compact, reliable and simple platform? do you think people were shooting each other with snubbies for years and not killing each other or something?
>>28306081
>knockdown power
>implying that is a real thing
>>28306137
except those rocks are traveling at the same velocity, and you can only effectively throw one rock at a time
>>28307396
>thinks 45 is more deadly than 9mm
>calls others confused
>>28307390
The abstract is contradictory.
>>28307414
I honestly can't make much sense of your first post, so I've no way to communicate further with you.
>>28307417
no, it's not. you just have problems understandig it.
>>28306035
Depends on the person.
With pistol rounds there isnt enough energy to cause any sort of reliable hydrostatic shock to remotely cause CNS injuries.
So you are relying on a person to stop because they dont want to keep going or to inflict a CNS injury.
Just because you shot someone and it shattered a femur doesnt mean they cant run anymore nor does shooting them in the heart mean they will be instantly incapacitated.
There is enough blood in your system with the arterties keeping up blood pressure to let you function for a minute or so with mortal wounds.
Most people stop when they are shot due to a decision at some level. Unless you are inflicting injuries upon the brain or spine their is generally no physical reason why they cant keep going.
I have seen plenty of animals run a hundred meters after a perfect ling heart kill shot. Likewise I have seen animals get a CNS injury and instantly fall over and do that weird stretching thing.
There have been plenty of cases of determined perfectly sober people taking bullets like a sponge and going until their body finally collapses due to lack of oxeygenated blood. Or cases lf people being shot at and instantly fainting without being hit.
>>28307414
ust fucking stop it. You have no idea what you're talking about. We're in peak physical condition, we've all shot firearms and while we're not competitive shooters we can hold our own against the vast majority of shooters who almost always fall into two categories, HURR I GOTS A NUGGET crowd and mallninjas that are more concerned with having tactical gear than training or shooting. Put real guns in our hands and we would rival many special operation units in training and effectiveness, guaranteed.
We get out there and train at least weekly with airsoft or other methods. We always run as realistic as possible (camo, tac vests, hydration systems, ruck sacks etc) and our guns are as close to real as you can get, even using real accessories. So we basically go out and run gunfighting simulations all the time. Talk shit all you want, you still feel all the adrenaline and gain all the experience of an actual gunfight, just without getting shot.
inb4 you call me underage, a faggot, or whatever. I'm 21 and I guarantee I could put you in the dirt. We just need to find a way to get into the business.
>>28307437
>Key findings of the participants included: ... thus given equal penetration, a bigger bullet will disrupt more tissue and potentially cause greater bleeding;
>none of the eight experts were able to say definitively that the larger .45 automatic round caused more damage than the 9mm round; and four of the eight experts found that there was no difference in the wounding effects of either caliber given equal penetration.
See how these are mutually exclusive?
It either causes more tissue damage or it doesn't.
Ill lose the small bit of stopping power to carry 9 more rounds in my magazine, you dipshit. Better hope you're a world class marksman in a dire situation because every police officer who has been in a firefight will tell you that when the shit hits the fan you will wish you simply had more ammunition.
>>28306137
KE = (M.V^2)/2
Velocity is squared in the kinetic energy equation. Faster lighter rock has more energy and will cause more damage.
>>28306797
>shooting innocent people behind bad guys
are you NYPD or something?
>>28307464
What does kinetic energy have to do with damage?
Kinetic energy is just the work done on the projectile to accelerate it to a given velocity.
>>28307387
>I'm not going to base my personal defense decisions off of some guy's blog.
What about the various studies and research that he sources? That blog is simply a summary of a ton of research that points to there being no real difference, and I'd rather base my opinions on what to carry on research done by doctors like Fackler and others who devoted their entire careers to researching that shit than try to claim that I know more than those doctors.
>>28307453
For your sake I hope this is bait or copypasta.
If not, seek help.
>navysealcopypasta.jpeg
>>28307453
I really hope this is an airsoft rant copy pasta.
Otherwise top kek
>>28307479
Link me the studies then.
>>28307428
>I cant back up my claims so I wont even attempt to
stay ass mad 45 fag
>>28307455
.45 isn't bigger enough to make a detectable difference. of course a bigger bullet will make a bigger hole, all other things being equal. logic dictates that. it's just that the difference between 0.355 and 0.45 inches means jack shit.
>>28307488
The studies were listed in the link here >>28306393 at the end of the article, if you were actually paying attention you would have known that.
>>28307428
not even the person you are replying to, but you are downs retarded if you can't understand what he is implying
>>28307074
what if you built a .25acp AR. but loaded the rounds to a ridiculous velocity?
>>28307499
More importantly is the wound channel. A large diameter hole thats 8 inches deep is not as effective as a slightly smaller one that penetrates nearly the entire body.
>>28307473
Because Newton's Laws of motion. When the projectile strikes a target it will transfer kinetic energy into it. If the projectile doesn't over penetrate then the all of the kinetic energy has been transferred, minus what was lost due to air resistance.
>>28305940
you just had to do it op. you just had to start this bullshit
>>28307499
>.45 isn't bigger enough to make a detectable difference.
Victorian era medicine was able to accurately judge calibers by the wound(s) of a cadaver.
Why this would be beyond modern medicine is strange to me, and I would love to hear an explanation as to why this would be.
>of course a bigger bullet will make a bigger hole, all other things being equal. logic dictates that. it's just that the difference between 0.355 and 0.45 inches means jack shit.
So a 60% larger wound means nothing to you?
Okay, go use 5.7x28mm then.
>more capacity
>less recoil
>only about a tenth of an inch less diameter
It's the perfect round for you.
>don't really go to /k/
>come to /k/
>this thread
wow
>>28307515
There are no links at the end of it.
>>28307556
/k/avemen
>>28307538
But the amount of kinetic energy in a pistol round is very small.
>>28307569
It's mostly that I expected better of you than actually arguing about muh .45. But well, at least your caveposting is rock solid.
I dunno if that's been posting, but here's the link to an official FBI justification for using 9mm instead of .45 or .40:
http://looserounds.com/2014/09/21/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/
>>28307544
>muh fucking victorian era
what could they tell, .41 from .72?
>muh 60 %
purely hypothetical with evidently no discernable difference.
I'd give 5.7 a try if it weren't several times more niche than 10 mm.
>>28307585
the AK vs. AR or 9mm vs. .45 arguments are pretty rare here these days, however
>hai guise i came from leddit to check out your website, i cant believe you're actually arguing about this hehe
fuck off faggot
>>28307598
That's not a real document man.
It has no author, sections and citations have been copy/pasted from a 1980's report, there are very few citations, and those few citations were actually used in the real report to say contrary things.
That's why they're all from the late 80's.
>>28307616
5.7 seems nice but as a carry gun I'd avoid it because of overpenetration
Buncha fucking faggots in this thread lemme tell ya
>>28307544
>Okay, go use 5.7x28mm then.
>Implying a good portion of posters here wouldn't if the ammo was cheaper and there were other pistol options chambered in it than the $1,200+ FN Fiveseven that costs 2x-3x as much as what most people on /k/ who carry guns for self defense carry
>>28307560
>I'm incapable of searching for studies on Google, go and get links to all these studies for me and spoon feed me
If you aren't even capable of doing that then it's unlikely that you would be able to understand the studies even if you did read them. I'm sorry that information about terminal ballistics isn't available in picture book format yet.
>>28307261
They reach like 11.8 nugguh.
>>28307641
http://looserounds.com/2015/11/09/fbi-9mm-justification-foia/
>>28307616
>>muh fucking victorian era
>what could they tell, .41 from .72?
They could tell a .44 from a .38
(protip, we can too, you see it in autopsies all the time)
>>muh 60 %
>purely hypothetical with evidently no discernible difference.
It's math. There's nothing hypothetical about it.
But by your logic, a regular fmj .45 makes just as good a wound as a 9mm jhp that expands to .55 inches though right?
So why should I ever use 9mm, if I can just get a .45 that expands .10" less, and penetrates more?
According to you, that would be the more lethal option.
Also 5.7 (and 4.7) rounds are apparently a bit crap:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4338-Small-Caliber-PDW-s-FN-5-7-mm-HK-4-6-mm
Thoughts?
>>28307645
>implying your shitpost doesnt make you a faggot
>>28307664
Yes, that's the one I'm talking about.
Look closely at it, and compare it to their late 80's document.
>>28306056
A larger and slower moving round causes much more of a tearing effect than merely piercing the body, and can transfer more of it's kinetic energy.
This means fewer yet far more damaging holes.
>>28307680
>implying
>>28307675
>unironically thinking 45 penetrates more than 9mm
The majority of 9mm defensive rounds penetrate further than their 45 contemporaries.
>>28307675
if a fuddy fag bullet makes a 60% larger hole, why couldn't martin fackler, vincent dimaio and six other faggots detect any trace of that difference when given the task to find it, smartass?
>>28307684
It has a lot of parallels yes but i dont know why youd be surprised by govt beuracracy. They brought up new findings that support their use of 9mm that were contrary to their statements when they switched to 40
>>28307571
Which is why you aim for vitals.
>>28307698
>>28307703
>>unironically thinking 45 penetrates more than 9mm
It penetrates about the same with fmj, and slightly more given equal expansion.
It'll lose out a bit right at the beginning due to a larger frontal surface area though.
>The majority of 9mm defensive rounds penetrate further than their 45 contemporaries.
With the same diameter expansion?
>>28307679
>Also 5.7 (and 4.7) rounds are apparently a bit crap
No they aren't, or at least aren't much crappier than other pistol ammunition. You'd get similar results no matter what pistol caliber you're using. Comparing a gun specifically designed around being small and as easy to carry as possible to be an alternative to carrying a pistol (like the P90 or MP7) to the M4 is ridiculous.
>>28305940
The equation for kinetic energy is
.5(m*v^2) OP. What do you think.
>>28307706
But he did.
See
Fackler, M.L., MD, presentation to the Wound Ballistics Workshop, Quantico, VA, 1987.
>>28307756
The guys in the link actually also compare them to pistol caliber SMGs, which aren't much larger than PDWs. Apparently they lose both to traditional SMGs and to carbines.
>>28307719
>They brought up new findings that support ...
But that's just it.
There are no new findings sourced in that "document."
At all.
It's literally the exact same information they had decades ago, when they made the opposite determination.
>>28307739
>it penetrates the same with FMJ
sure, but for my use, and for the sake of this argument largely, its unwise to carry FMJ in a carry gun.
>same diameter expansion
no of course not and i wouldnt say it can, but a large diameter wound thats shallow is about the same volume as a smaller diameter, longer wound wound channel. beyond volume, penetrating deeper means hitting more vascular structures which makes the diameter less relevant. do any damage to major arteries like the aorta, renal arteries, mesenteric arteries etc and you death will come sooner
not to mention quicker follow up shots and higher cap with a 9
>>28307763
Therefore bigger mass = bigger force.
>>28307776
>The guys in the link actually also compare them to pistol caliber SMGs
Um, no he didn't. All Doc GKR did was talk about how pistol calibers don't preform nearly as well as intermediate and full power rifle rounds, which I would hope is obvious to everyone, especially the part about how pistol ammunition doesn't compare to 7.62x51mm.
>>28307795
>no of course not and i wouldnt say it can, but a large diameter wound thats shallow is about the same volume as a smaller diameter, longer wound wound channel. beyond volume, penetrating deeper means hitting more vascular structures which makes the diameter less relevant. do any damage to major arteries like the aorta, renal arteries, mesenteric arteries etc and you death will come sooner
So you agree with me then?
Because if the diameter is the same, .45 will penetrate further than 9mm.
And since by your account, .10" doesn't make much difference, a .55" 9mm hollow point get utterly destroyed by a standard .45 round.
And let's not debate collateral damage or anything, we're talking pure lethality here.
>not to mention quicker follow up shots and higher cap with a 9
Well of course, I already mentioned that earlier.
>>28307201
>There are many advantages to 9mm, which are quite obvious.
>Higher capacity, less recoil, lower cost, NATO standardization, ect.
>>28307835
I guess I misremembered it. But the accounts talk about putting "15-20 rounds" in a target, is it really the case for traditional caliber SMGs?
>>28307468
I'll take two for the price of one.
>>28307795
>muh quicker followup shots
>muh lower recoil
>muh higher capacity
oh boy, do I have a caliber for you!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwPtP-KDNk
>for the 9mm vs .45 ACP faggots
>>28307947
>half hour long
for those of us who aren't actually that invested in this argument, can you give us a tl;dr?
>>28308063
>people rarely die by tissue damage, it's mostly bleeding out
>you'll bleed with any caliber so
>9mm performs about the same as .45 ACP since neither of them tumble
>>28307843
45
lower muzzle energy
heavier
larger
>hurr it penetrates further
ok buddy
>>28306374
It's a pretty simple concept, train how you fight. I know what my combat reaction is, do you?
>>28308074
>people rarely die by tissue damage, it's mostly bleeding out
so all those dindus who got gunned down by police officers died because instead of calling an ambulance the cop sat there teabagging their corpse?
>>28308083
>implying you train by having people assault and shoot at you
>>28308101
He pointed out that cartridges for rifles do way more catastrophic damage compared to handguns.
But with handguns, you actually have a good chance of surviving if you only get hit once. Most dindus get lit up more than once so the bleeding effect is magnified.
>>28308113
So we actually have a good reason to condemn cops for emptying six entire magazines into Jerome?
>>28308128
They're shooting to kill anyways so it doesn't matter.
>>28306292
>throw entire fucking airplanes at people.
Well, it worked for Japan.
>>28307864
Something seems off about that, my guess is the people using the gun were less careful with placing their shots because they knew one shot most likely wouldn't be enough and were worried about getting more rounds on the target. Even with .22 lr I don't see it taking 15-20+ rounds to stop an average person.
>>28308144
didn't RFK take a single .22 to the head?
>>28308074
It's not about killing somebody, it's about making them incapable of fighting back.
>>28308140
Clearly not, they got 2 very special airplanes in return and they've been braindead ever since
>>28307774
no, he didn't.
>Author(s): Robert L. Adkins ; Dr. Vincent Dimaio ; Dr. Martin L. Fackler, COL. ; Stan Goddard ; Douglas Lindsey, M.D., Dr.P.H. ; SGT. Evan Marshall ; Dr. Carroll Peters ; Dr. O'Brien C. Smith
>none of the eight experts were able to say definitively that the larger .45 automatic round caused more damage than the 9mm round; and four of the eight experts found that there was no difference in the wounding effects of either caliber given equal penetration.
https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/Abstract.aspx?id=253695
Regardless of performances in terms of killing someone, what is the most fun to shoot with at the range ? 45 or 9mm?
I'm considering buying a glock pistol soon, until now I've never shoot anything else than 22lr bolt action rifles.
>>28308293
Well, bigger, louder boolets are always fun, and chunky steel guns feel amazing IMO. 1911 types are fun to tinker with.
You can shoot slightly more per dollar with 9 though.
Also
>another b8 thread with +200 posts
Goddammit guys
>>28308293
9mm, because you can shoot more for the same amount of money. Having shot pistols and revolvers in a variety of calibers (.22 lr, .380, 9mm, 7.62x25mm, 7.62x38r, .38 special, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP) recoil doesn't affect the experience of shooting at the range much for me, other than my Makarov in .380 which is amusing to shoot due to having next to no muzzle flip, almost like my .22 pistol and a friend's Chiappa Rhino again due to the lack of muzzle flip despite the round that it shoots.
I only use .22 because I can actually aim, you bitches need to hit the range
>>28307818
Smaller mass = more velocity as well which is squared. So therefore more velocity impacts it more than mass.
>>28305940
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwPtP-KDNk
I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet but this is a 30 minute video of a doctor (anestheiologist) who has a pretty thorough explaination of the difference between rifle/hangun wounds. He also shows comparisions of handgun wounds both fmj and hp where people are hit from strange angles due to bending crouching etc since people aren't gel blocks that get hit by bullets from flat angles. Watch it if you have the time.
>>28307947
>>28308923
Fuck i need to read more carefully
>>28308923
The sound of this video is bad, care to make a small summary ?
>>28309156
So if you look at the portion of the video from 13:30 min to about 17:00 minutes the doctor equates the energy transfer of a 9mm bullet to throwing a 10lb weight into the air and carching it. So the energy transfer and force involved is fairly small and handgun rounds in general just suck at immediately killing things, or even immediately stopping them.
The doctor gives further examples including video recording of a man getting shot twice (onece in the upper torso and again in the lower torso) and running around frantically for several minutes before finally crouching down, most likely finally feeling dizzy from some initial blood loss. Furthermore, an example of an individual getting shot twice with .40 s&w hp bullets center mass and surviving since the expanding bullets slowed enough they did not penetrate enough to hit vital structures. The doctor then discusses the fact that most people are twisting or crouching or bending over to varying degrees when they're in a gunfight. So those gel block tests are kind of a poor representation of the effects of the performance of a handgun bullet in a human considering there are so may variables that can hamper performance and handgun bullets are just poor at stopping a threat within a few seconds so 9mm vs 45 is a moot point.
>>28306051
Yeah Right
>>28306165
actually he's confusing force and momentum
>>28306245
>Did you know countless millions of projectiles pass through our bodies each second?? And they are going faster than light, too!!!
>>28306109
Yeah, and the thing it is is 'myth'.
>>28307661
>best possible performance is less than the recommended minimum
Reconsider your choices anon
>>28305940
M x V2
>>28310013
I agree with penetration but look at that shit man. What are the odds it'll knick some vital organ or register a reaction in the victim?
Those petals are YUUUGE
https://youtu.be/7bLonprIWm4
Don't worry FN has solved the issue.
>>28306505
I would bet a lot of money the 25gn projectile at 8k fps would not penetrate, but instead would fragment into a million pieces
>>28306109
Cavitation is a thing, but only once you get about 3000fps. If you are talking about actual hydrostatic shock, the theory about pressure waves moving through blood vessels to cause a stroke, that is pure bullshit.
>>28306051
No sir
>>28307818
learn order of operations
>>28311253
Penis
Envy
May
Downsize
Any
Service caliber
so that's where 9mm comes from.
>>28306245
Do you have any conception how devastating a fragmenting 25gr at 8000fps would be?
>>28307556
>>28307585
This thread is protected /k/ heritage.
>>28306245
Photons and neutrinos don't have any fucking mass, you nigger.
>>28306081
>knockdown power
You still believe in Santa don't you?
>>28306370
So not a dagger...
>>28305954
A bullet is not positively acceralating once in flight unless it's a gyrojet. Force =/= energy... And kinetic energy is one half mass times the velocity squared. Velocity counts sooooo much more.
>>28311769
>that pic
you got the figure you got the face
I've got the money, I've got the place
>>28314236
That's not true. The bullet is positively accelerating away from the target.
Forty five ayyceepee
