was sobel as bad as they portrayed him ?
what did he really do ?
>>28249979
He's a Jew.
>>28249979
Pretty sure he was jewish
>Sobel was controversially portrayed as petty and capricious in the television series Band of Brothers, generating much debate.Stephen Ambrose gives several examples of this in his book. Since the series, his son Michael has spoken out on his behalf. In various interviews, Easy Company veterans have acknowledged the importance Sobel's training played in the company's later successes. Writing of him in their autobiographies he seemed to have been remembered less fondly by the other officers. Enlisted men seemed uniform in disliking him but recognizing his drive to make them the best, ensuring their fine conditioning probably saved many lives.
I mean he really wasn't bad. remember nix's comments about the coffee? he was potentially jumpy in combat which probably wasn't uncommon for a lot of officers before they got into theater.
>>28249979
Hebrew as fuck.
>In the late 1960s, Sobel shot himself in the head with a small-caliber pistol. The bullet entered his left temple, passed behind his eyes, and exited out the other side of his head. This severed his optic nerves and left him blind.He was later moved to a VA assisted living facility in Waukegan, Illinois. Sobel resided there for his last seventeen years until his death due to malnutrition on September 30, 1987. No services were held for Sobel after his death.
Fuck me
>>28250036
I was about to mention that.
>>28250036
That's metal as fuck. Holy shit balls.
>>28250036
goddamn
He was a good trainer but a bad leader.
>>28250036
>>28250036
>A bullet to the head couldn't kill him but the VA did
>>28250036
>his death due to malnutrition
Well ain't that just fucked
>>28250086
We all fear the VA.
>>28249979
Your average Lt.
Dude is just a rich kid fresh out of college and joined the army and fucks with the pleb enlisted men as a power trip, because his rank allows him to do so.
>>28250086
Dayum
>>28250036
Fuck Waukegan
That place is trash city and i feel sorry for any white people still living there
>>28250126
He didnt think of that post. Someone used that here in the last 6 months.
>>28250103
But not their paychecks nigga. I got like 4k worth of checks from them I need to cash.
>>28249979
>was sobel as bad as they portrayed him ?
If you read the book, he comes off as worse than in the show to be honest
>what did he really do ?
Toughened Easy up, but was also rather incompetent in the field, which is why they kept him as a trainer while the 101st jumped into Normandie
>>28250069
>for the love of god montressor.jpg
>>28250036
>death due to malnutrition
>in VA assisted living
Note to self, never get sick. These guys are not going to be taking care of me.
>>28250097
Probably means he just stopped eating. When you are old and get to a certain point they just let you die.
>>28250143
go ahead and get sent to a VA hospital after severe injury. you'll wake and the doctor will tell you that they accidentally replaced your heart with a baked potato.
>>28249997
yeah this is what i got for the show aswell.
>>28250051
>shit balls
>balls
>eyeballs
what that intentional, anon?
>>28250157
Mah nigga
>>28250036
He strikes me as a man who was hell bent on chasing a dream he had since childhood. Sadly, he simply didn't have the capacity to understand the nuances of what he was trying to do. He embodied the belligerent side of being a strong leader, wrathful in discipline, and perhaps he was imagining future grand adventures and exploits whilst he shouted and tormented his company. For some reason or another, he never cultivated his character past that, down to matching the physical fitness of the recruits. Every account illustrated him unable to connect to anyone on a human level. He had goals without the ideas to reach them, and maybe what crushed him so hard was to passionately train men who were sent off to war while he remained back at home base. Maybe he was mistakenly infatuated with a naive idea of Easy Company rather than being able to embrace the realities of it. imo, Sobel was as empty as they come.
>>28249997
I'd say a lot of it was either dramatised or just flat out bullshit in a lot of cases. As for why/how he failed at a command role that could be any number of reasons really, field command is a pretty tough gig at the best of times in training and immensely hard under actual combat, so I wouldn't begrudge anyone screwing it up at least at the training level. Course, when that means someone's life (or lives) is at stake, that kind of pressure will get you out quick.
He was right about PT'ing motherfuckers to near death. Everyone hates it, but it really will keep you alive, moving and alert when you've got to push yourself to 100% for long periods of time.
>>28250508
>I'd say a lot of it was either dramatised or just flat out bullshit in a lot of cases.
What makes you say that?
>>28250036
>suicide attempt
wouldn't use this too much in basing any concrete opinions relative to OPs main question.
Throughout history, many great men of renown have committed suicide later in life. I think it's something every real "thinking man" of tremendous experience faces at some point.
>>28250611
Its not a bad show by any means, but they're not always accurate and hell, its hollywood- their job is making shit up
http://wikiofbrothers.wikia.com/wiki/Historical_Inaccuracies
>>28250770
> every real "thinking man" of tremendous experience faces at some point
Sobel never saw a second of combat, nor was he intelligent in any meaningful way, especially compared to someone like Winters.
>>28250845
Sobel depiction is still directly inspired from the book.
>>28250893
>nor was he intelligent in any meaningful way
how do you know this?
>>28250845
Have you read the book though?
They actually toned Sobel down for the show.
>>28250845
>In the series lieutenant Dike is portrayed as being an incompetent coward. However in real life he performed many acts of heroics. For example, Dike was awarded a Bronze Star for his action at Uden, Holland, with the 101st Airborne Division between 23 and 25 September 1944, in which he “organized and led scattered groups of parachutists in the successful defense of an important road junction on the vital Einhoven (sic)-Arnhem Supply Route against superior and repeated attacks, while completely surrounded. Dike was awarded a second Bronze Star for his action at Bastogne, in which "he personally removed from an exposed position, in full enemy view, three wounded members of his company, while under intense small arms fire" on 3 January 1945.In preparation for the 13 January 1945 attack on Foy, Belgium, E Company was attached to the 3rd Battalion, 506th PIR. Division Headquarters ordered the attack to begin at 0900 hours. During the assault, Carwood Lipton, at that time the company's first sergeant, described Dike as having "fallen apart." Clancy Lyall stated that he saw that Dike had been wounded in his right shoulder and that it was the wound, not panic, that caused Dike to stop. Dike returned to the rear in the company of a medic not dying in the assault as portrayed. Dike was transferred to 506th Regimental Headquarters to become an assistant operations officer.Dike then moved on to become, as a captain, an aide to General Maxwell Taylor, Commanding General, 101st Airborne Division.He later served in the Korean war.
Shit bro, that's actually pretty fucked up the way they portrayed Dike then.
I hold BoB in the highest regard but this has changed my view quite a bit
>>28250913
>>28250969
Nope, not read the book. Will have to do a bit of a hunt around for it later
who /wintersmasterrace/ here?
>>28250941
His actions.
>>28250985
Remember, it's a show based on memoirs. It's subject to the perception of the author.
If I wrote about my CO, it would be pretty damn negative, based on my experiences with him. That doesn't make any of his other accomplishments any less real, it just makes them less important to MY work.
>>28250985
Yep that guy was a legit hero in every sense
>>28251007
Winters was very Christian, so /k/ is probably too edgy for him
>>28251007
While I acknowledge that they both took place in real life, I still headcanon that Winters is Fick's grandpa.
>>28250992
I have read the book. Sobel was a cunt.
>>28250175
>Probably means he just stopped eating. When you are old and get to a certain point they just let you die.
I think this is pretty much how my grandfather went. 93 years was enough, even for that tough bastard. Flew fighters in WW2, and again in Korea, along with another tour flying combat transport dropping off men and supplies to front line areas, where he earned a DFC.
I remember distinctly the last time I saw him about a year before he died. He was putting on a brave face for the family, but I caught him in a few unguarded moments and I could tell how miserable he was. Honestly it was a mixture of sadness and relief when he went.
>>28251029
All officers are cunts, otherwise the army would just be "camping out with guns" :)
>>28251060
No, a good officer knows when to make you miserable while encouraging respect for him. Even an average officer can conduct training exercises with competence. Sobel did neither of these things, and when you end up with all of your NCO's refusing to serve under you, you can be considered a certified cunt.
>>28251029
Sobel could crack a whip, but he couldn't command
>>28250036
>tfw you avoid hitler
>tfw you still die of malnutrition while effectively incarcerated
>tfw I have no face
>>28251166
>Born: January 26, 1912
Dude was 85 years old, could have easily developed dysphagia or something
>>28250913
Yeah but the book is pretty shit when it comes to accuracy. A lot of it is strongly biased to Winters' views and contains quite a bit of stuff that doesn't really have much historical backing as fact.
>>28251026
Yeah
Fick is pretty much present day Winters
>>28251916
>present day Winters
>fick
>present day
>happened over 12 years ago
Fucking weird, I LITERALLY just got done re-watching BoB after like, seven years, and just ended Ep. 2 a minute ago.
>>28251819
>Yeah but the book is pretty shit when it comes to accuracy
Fortunately we're narrowing down to a single subject like Sobel.
>strongly biased to Winters' views
Sure, but had Winters betrayed any dishonesty as a person?
> quite a bit of stuff that doesn't really have much historical backing as fact
Sure, it's based mostly on memoirs and interviews. And the consensus in every account is Sobel was a miserable individual.
>>28251060
No, Sobel was a 100 percent beyond a shadow of a doubt utter fucking bastard bastard.
It's safe to say that he was probaly the most hated man in the entire 506th during training.
>>28251166
Fuck off nigger. This is the result of not allowing euthanasia. Instead of just ending it you have to stop eating for days-weeks before you can finally die.
>>28249979
tl;dr : should have rejoined israel and become a general of Tsahal. And being praised by every israel fan. /k/ would be like "OMG WHY IS HE SO BASED OMG DUDE WAS IN THE US ARMY IN WW2 OMG ISRAYHULL YOU'RE MY GRUETASTE AYLLY."
>in b4 oy vey
>>28250985
That means nothing. Our CO got a bronze star during one of the most intense firefights of my deployment yet he wasnt even there for it (he is in the CP the whole time)
Our entire squad didnt even get CIBs until after 4 firefights because there wasnt enough proof... seriously, we only got any medals when officers were around, and we only got them because they did also
>>28253522
Wrong. You didnt get awards because your NCO's failed to fill out the paperwork, or your admin was a POS.
>I literally hard to harrass my NCOIC daily just to get him to send up CAB awards for a signature.
>he wanted proof
>showed him the SITREP frm the unit we were supporting
>wanted more proof
>Obtained the PBA from EOD on the EFPIED
>Wanted more proof
>Told him I was going to bitch to the CO.
>Thats all the proof he needed.
>>28253522
My PSG got a Bronze Star and he literally spent the entire deployment watching every episode of Buffy and the LotR movies. He didn't do his job even one time.
We also had a pair of female CSTs with us. A CPT and a 1LT. A mortar hit the far side of the FOB (maybe a 1/4 mile from where they lived) and they slept through it. They only heard about it the next morning. They wrote each other up for Purple Hearts and Bronze Stars. Since they're like an independent team, the O-3 is the approval authority so they both got Purple Hearts and Bronze Stars for a single mortar that they slept through.
>>28253822
this rustled my jimmies
>>28252319
I would say that at any one point in time, there is always a /k/omrade watching BoB somewhere
>>28253822
>my late grandpa hobbling around with shrapnel in his leg courtesy of dirty chinks during Korea
>my late great uncle WIA during the Battle of the Bulge, coming back for more, and getting chewed up by artillery fire
>Their Purple Hearts are just as legitimate in the eyes of the US Military as these unscrupulous cunts.
Purge them all.
>>28253885
i'd go out on a limb and say some anon's have it playing in a continuous loop
>>28250469
I've been under a similar leader,
> Only style is to be tyrannical with supreme ultimate authority that can never be questioned,
> Can't even meet his own standards of excellence,
> Subordinate officers are treated like absolute shit often given duties that would be demeaning to the newest private or berated and chewed out in front of their men
> Uses his soldiers to get reserved school slots, then swaps himself into the slot
> Everyone is actually brought closer together under the suffering
> We all watch out for each other and share the beatings and ass chewings
The yelling screaming tyrant form of leadership is fine in training but in combat it falls apart immediately, who would follow and trust someone they've built up resentment and hate towards. He was removed right before we deployed and buried into one of the S shops somewhere to never see the light of day.
>>28253822
I call bullshit on the purple heart bit. Medics write that up or it goes in the trash from the approval authority...which is going to be higher than an O-3
>>28250175
Remember reading a greentext about a guys grandfather who one day was like "Welp I've experienced everything I've wanted, now its time to go." And then just fucking stubbornly stopped talking and eating and sat down and waited until death.
>>28253789
>CAB
Yeah in sure those mortars really made you deserve that CAB
I dont even know how you guys wear that shit unironically, everyone knows you didn't do shit for it.
I for one didnt have time to bitch at my leadership because we were busy not being inside the FOB for more than a couple hours.
>>28249997
He's even worse in the book, but as hated as he was, many of the troops later said that the endless training saved lives.
Keep in mind, his big defender was Sgt Evans, who was killed on D-day. So we don't have both sides of this. (Evans's spelling and typos really were as bad as they show in the series). For example, in the book the men said he wasn't very physically fit himself and only just barely qualified, that they admired his determination even though his physical condition was weak. But then other evidence talks about his unusual physical fitness, including witnesses who knew him after the war.
Several incidents that were blamed on Sobel in the series were actually the battalion commander's idea. Like the spaghetti lunch run; there really were ambulances stationed at the foot of the mountain if you fell out. Anyone who got in one was kicked out of the unit.
>>28250036
There's an interview with his son. Sobel married a blonde german girl after the war and had several kids. Much later, they divorced. Sobel and his son had a falling out over vietnam: Sobel was a staunch conservative and his son got swept up in campus anti-war radicalism and was eventually wanted by the FBI. The son claims that they were close and he was a loving father... but he also had virtually no contact with his dad once he was grown up. The wife remarried and also fell out of touch.
The show claims that his family skilled the memorial service, but like anon quotes, there actually was no service. The son claims that the VA didn't inform them about Sobel's death until it was too late.
>>28253936
I had a fucking SPC get a purple heart for falling off a ladder.... i think his story is believeable with todays mil
>>28253962
Except that's bullshit. I know people whose vehicles got hit by IEDs and they still didn't get them because of the rules at the time for being awarded them.
>>28253789
Consider yourself lucky. Matt Urban, the only guy who can out-badass Audie Murphy, didn't get his WWII awards until the 80s because his CO got killed and the paperwork got lost in the confusion.
>>28254029
Yeah it was really dependent on command climate at the time, in 2012 there was a serious crackdown on purple hearts, we couldn't get them for serious TBI, dude vomiting all over himself and can't function for four days afterward, we just wanted the dude to get something so he could show the VA afterward and get treated if the shit popped up a year or two down the line. But everything was getting shot down by brigade.
>>28253963
>Never got to see 1SG Simon Pegg get into whacky British hijinks in Normandy.
>>28253962
>Hurr durr only the infantry take contact
You sound like someone with a very limited understanding of what war is really like.
>>28250469
He kept his hat in by enlisting in the reserves. His children remember him keeping them in shape, and they weren't allowed to participate in his training if they misbehaved.
>>28250985
Yeah, Dike's family was pretty pissed about his portrayal. The book seems nicer to him as well.
Another guy who got shit on by the series was Cobb. He's portrayed as a bitter, cowardly asshole in the book. In reality, while he WAS a drunk, he was a fun guy and had already had a lot of combat experience fighting in Africa (and getting a destroyer sunk out from under him while coming back to the USA).
They don't mention it in the show, but that West Point guy who was there for one battle? He needed some minor surgery on his way back to the states and they decided to give it to him while still in Europe. He never woke up from the anesthetic and died on the table. Just a freak thing.
Oh, and one more thing about Sobel. The reason he had his rank was that he'd already been training as a reserve officer before the war. Most of the men had volunteered or been drafted after the war started, so he had seniority.
There's a natural tension between peacetime soldiers and wartime soldiers. In peace, the soldiers who do well behave themselves and are good at jumping through political hoops and not making mistakes that make politicians look bad in the news. War demands an entirely different kind of soldier, and mentality. Sobel always struck me as an officer who'd fit in well with the diversity-trained, "fill out this form in triplicate", JAGs-running-the-show military we have right now. A good CINC knows to throw all that by the wayside once we're at war.
>>28251029
was watching the 101 talk about him winters said much of the hate was created by winters and he did everything with the group like running for miles he would be there
>>28253963
Somethng about rewriting history and singling a person out to shit on their name and their families name just really pisses me off.
There are plenty of guys like Sobel in just about every unit. It sucks that they picked a real person and made him the eternal asshole of WW2 when there were guys that were probably much much worse. I don't know anybody that served that would shit on someone in their unit to the general public as much as Sobel was shit on, it just isn't right to be honest. Even if it was true, it really isn't right.
>>28254045
Tibor Rubin only got his Medal of Honor in 2005. He'd been a hungarian jew who'd been rescued from a concentration camp and emigrated to America.
When his regiment was trying to withdraw, he manned a machine gun on a hilltop and single-handedly covered his unit's retreat. He killed a "staggering" number of Chinese troops on that hill. His sergeant hated Jews and disobeyed orders from his officers to write up his action for a MoH. Instead, he kept trying to get Rubin killed by sending him on suicide missions, which Rubin kept surviving.
When captured by the Chinese, they tried to get him to accept release to Hungary. He refused to leave his men, and instead used the skills he'd learned scrounging in concentration camps to break out, steal food and medical supplies, and then break back in to get them to the men.
He never bitched, because he said he loved America for rescuing him from the camps. His case finally came to light in the mid-2000's when the army was reviewing historical records.
>>28253898
I had one Korean veteran tell me that they would take the can openers and scrape up an arm for a wound. He had one crew member try that, and wanted to be written up for a purple heart. He told him that if he didn't get back to what he was supposed to be doing, he would kick his ass.
>>28253934
I had one idiot tell me of all the ways he avoided work when he was in my position. It did not fill me with respect.
>>28254270
>I don't know anybody that served that would shit on someone in their unit to the general public as much as Sobel was shit on, it just isn't right to be honest. Even if it was true, it really isn't right.
I think fifty years later, it's ok... IF it's true. Sobel wasn't much liked and wasn't alive to defend himself, but the courtmartial incident is true to the book, which can be verified from the records. The hard training made him hated, but Stephen Ambrose and later even the men themselves acknowledged that it probably was what made them so successful and helped keep them alive. The show is true to that as well.
The portrayal of Dike and Cobb is IMO inexcusable.
>>28254171
Oh, and here's one more surprise. Liebgott apparently was NOT jewish.
This shocked the men, who thought he was. He'd listed himself as Catholic, but that's what most Jews did during the war, in case they were captured. The other men of Easy all remember him describing himself as jewish. After the war, Liebgott disappeared. He never contacted any of the men, he never attended any reunions, and he never told his wife, kids, or grandkids about the war.
So they were floored when they saw the show. They were raised catholic. Stephen Ambrose investigated and found that Liebgott was the son of Austrian immigrants and that that was how he knew accented German. The two reining theories right now are:
1) Liebgott was of jewish descent through his mom and considered himself a jew, at least ethnically (or half-jewish). Then after the war, he quietly became catholic and erased his past to avoid antisemitism in case it ever came back. (Many other jews did this after WW2).
2) Liebgott was NEVER a jew, and only said so during the war to avoid anti-german sentiment. During WW1, recent german immigrants and their kids had been discriminated against. Liebgott may have wanted to avoid trouble.
You'd be surprised how many people have jewish grandparents or even parents and don't know it.
>>28254307
Yeah I understand the portrayal of facts. It sounds like Sobel didn't mesh well at all and should have taken a clue earlier and set someone like Winters up to take charge instead of sabotaging the whole thing.
I put it together with the way they show Dike and Cobb and it really makes the series go to shit for me. The irony of celebrating a company of veterans by shitting on two war heroes is way fucked up. It takes some nerve to do that and claim you are in it for the vets or whatever.
Funny story, kind of. I had to meet up with some guys that were WW2 vets from my unit in the Army. The first thing they did after meeting me was start talking shit about people in their unit. I mean, they went on for like 15 minutes about how lazy one guy was, how stupid another guy was, etc etc etc. This was during WW2 and the Korean War. I was kind of let down by the whole thing, but a little entertained too. Years later and they were still bitter some dude didn't carry ammo that one time. It was even funnier because they didn't know I was a POG and I really didn't want to tell them after hearing the way they talked about their fellow infantrymen. Sometimes I wonder if they were the shitbags though, given that it was only two of them talking to me and the rest were just quietly conversing with each other and nodding at me. I would love to see series about those two guys, just smirking at everyone else in their unit for being so shitty while they were off killing germans.
I was a POG in an infantry battalion btw. I think I am biased because I appreciated the way they only shit on me internally, and never to the general public.
>>28254276
Jesus Christ. That man deserves the world, not just a medal.
>>28254270
It's also funny the stories that make it into the show and the ones that don't.
In the book and in later interviews, the men go on about Earl McClung and Floyd Talbert and their exploits, but neither guy got a lot of screen time in the HBO show.
Buck Compton was wounded and horrified by what happened, but not catatonic like they show on tv.
Tipper wasn't shown dying in the show, and the other Easy men thought he'd died as well. But it sure looked like he was dying-- he's the guy Liebgott is cradling in the intro who was torn up by artillery in Carentan. But he did live, and is one of the last surviving original members of Easy. He got married in the 1980's to a 20-something girl and they're raising their kids. Go google some pics, it's worth the trouble.
Fritz Niland isn't featured in the show at all. This is because his story (heavily fictionalized) was made into its own movie, called "Saving Private Ryan". Yes, the real-life Private Ryan was an Easy Company man.
>>28251012
You were there with him to see his actions?
>>28249997
TDRL
he was a great instructor that pushed his men harder then any other unit, but was a terrible field man. Any GI hates their instructor, couple that with him not being a good combat leader like winters AND they are about to go into ww2 most people at the time hated him and he got a lot of shit for it. In retrospect, they admitted all the training made them better and probably wouldn't have done as well if it wasn't for him. Sucks that he got the shit end of the stick for the rest of history and nobody cared enough to fix it
>>28250036
Holy fuck.
>>28250036
I didn't want to feel this feel
>>28253934
> Uses his soldiers to get reserved school slots, then swaps himself into the slot
>>28252845
I'm not saying Sobel was a saint or an amazing leader, I'm just saying that the character was probably exaggerated to some extent.
And that Winters was not necessarily perfect.
>people in this thread going 'but muh book'
>not realizing Stephen Ambrose is a terrible historian
Ambrose was only really interested in one kind of historical research: interviewing veterans, who he viewed not as subjects of historical study but heroes to be glorified. This means his 'history' is little more than a heroic retelling of a handful of interviews, conducted decades after the fact, with a dwindling pool of surviving E. Coy veterans.
A better historian would use veteran interviews only as a single aspect of a wider research portfolio drawing on unit war diaries, social history, AARs, secondary sources, German and American records, personnel files, photography etc. Ambrose doesn't, instead using a few popular history books as his additional research. The result is an unbalanced book; for example, Winters' own questionable views are repeated uncritically.
A review here by RA Forczyk, an Osprey author: http://www.amazon.com/review/R2PLPYMZPGJ5JQ
On Ambrose's historical uselessness generally: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/assessment/2002/01/the_plagiarist.html
And an example of his incompetence in his book about the Transcontinental Railroad: http://utahrails.net/articles/ambrose.php
He sucks guys. If you want to know the real story, the US Army official history is available for free (http://www.history.army.mil/html/bookshelves/collect/usaww2.html) and hundreds of more qualified authors have examined Normandy: Niklas Zetterling, John Keegan, Anthony Beevor, Ben Kite...
Since the TV series gets its history from the book, things are no better there.
>>28256351
Quality post anon. I intuited Ambrose's hagiographic tendencies but didn't realize they were concrete and well-known.
>>28253822
>Since they're like an independent team, the O-3 is the approval authority so they both got Purple Hearts and Bronze Stars for a single mortar that they slept through.
You need to publish their names and units. You also need to talk to people in your old unit, get sworn statements, and send this up the chain. This is fraud and they should be in jail.
>>28254171
>Another guy who got shit on by the series was Cobb. He's portrayed as a bitter, cowardly asshole in the book.
This is the way the show protrays him.
>In reality, while he WAS a drunk, he was a fun guy and had already had a lot of combat experience
This is the way the book portrays him.
The weird thing is that Cobb's incident of drunkenness in Hagenau was actually a lot worse in the book, but the show which had shit on his character all this time pulled punches. I think he pulled a handgun on Sgt. Martin and had to be restrained. They made this a lot more mild in the show and Martin just lightly scolds him.
>>28250086
sheeeet.
>>28253934
in combat, a good soldier ought to know how to kill a bad officer
>>28250177
As long as there's sour creme and chives...
>>28249979
Sobel was a fantastic instructor, he just couldn't hack it commanding in the field.
I read the Stroop report a few years ago. Pretty sure he lost more Lithuanian soldiers than he admitted to.
>>28256351
Ambrose isn't perfect, but he does review all those records you mention. Plus he interviewed Germans fighting on the other side in those battles.
He draws heavily on veteran quotes in the book, because that's the most emotionally impactful, but that doesn't mean the other source weren't used.
>>28257249
Yeah got it backwards. Oops.
Nice thread anons
>>28250036
I dont know if he was a shitty officer or not, and none of us probably ever will. But he was a vet and that should fucking mean something other than having to be starved to death by the VA.
>>28253822
1stsgt, big black dindu from detroit, life long 0311, lazy as fuck. His call sign was sleepy monkey, and he never found out because
A) he never bothered to do his job so he wasnt there when we assigned it to him
B) he literally slept through EVERY mission in the back of an MRAP.
One day hes sleeping in the back of an MRAP when it rolls. Not due to enemy activity, shoulder of the road just collapsed under it and it rolled.
He literally sleeps through it. Corpsman wakes him up, he freaks out cuz hes upside down.
>"Were you sleeping 1stsgt"
>da fuq you talkin bout sleepin, i dindu nuffin cept hit muh head and get knocked out. Never sleep on missions"
Gets reported as a cuncussion leading to loss of consciousness. He gets "concussed" 3 more times by near misses from IEDs and RPGs. Rest of the crew is fine, he was just somehow always "concussed into unconsciousness" every time the truck got hit (was asleep, got woken up by responders, claimed concussion) yeah. The fucker literally slept through explosions.
Gets home, claims a bunch of PTSD and TBI issues, definition of wounded is amended to include TBI and severe concussions leading to loss of consciousness.
He gets purple heart because he has paper record and nobody who was there was still around cuz they EASed already.
Dont even get me started on the time our BC wrote himself up for a bronze star sucessfully by using some plays on words to turn
"Unintentionally discharged his rifle in a panic response to distant gunfire before kicking somebody out of an armoured vehicle so he could hide in there"
Into: "gallantly fought alongside the marines of his PSD in a complex ambush both taking and returning fire whilst leading his marines from the front in the highest keeping of marine corps values and traditions"
>>28254270
I agree wholeheartedly. The man served and was hard on his men. Was he an asshole? Yes. Did he regularly push his men to extremes? Absolutely. Should be have been told to chill the fuck out, and often? Debatable.
Did he deserve to have his entire service be referred to as shameful and a complete discredit to the nation, exiling him on a path that would eventually lead to his attempted suicide with literally less than zero acknowledgement? No. Not ever.
You're right. There WERE men worse than him. 1SGTs raping their daughters, being moved to different units and still being given command. Racists, sending whatever race they didn't like to die on suicide missions. Thieves, big and small.
Sobel did none of this. He was hated the same way every company commander is hated. Everyone wants to praise a nice guy, but nobody wants to own up to a failing unit because of a lack of cohesion, discipline, and the ever looming fear of fucking up. Nobody wants to admit what it takes to run a unit and keep them breathing one more day. Nobody wants to be the bad guy. Yet we all expect to be high speed operators when you toss a fucking football around for PT 3 days a week.
>>28254307
Fuck you and everyone who looks like you for the exact reasons above.
>>28253936
Remember a while back when that small truck tried to ram through the ECP so a big ass truck full of explosives could come through?
I don't remember the details specifically, I'm actually at the ass end of battalion staff duty. It's on liveleak.
Anyway, my friend was a sniper and was sleeping, woken up by the thunderous boom. My other friend is a small arms repair and was pretty close to it. He walked into his tent and sand poofed up at his face. Sniper was fine, just shook. Arms room guy was instantly concussed, instant TBI.
Everyone went to the medics that day or soon after. If they were inside the FOB, they got purple hearts. It's way more likely than you think. My platoon Sgt in AIT went to JAG because we noticed his ERB (he was projecting on the wall as an example) had one. He didn't deserve it and was man enough to go get it removed.
Circumstantial.
>>28257379
Get. Out.
>>28250036
FUCK
>>28262155
there is nothing absolutely wrong with killing an officer m8. It's one of those situations that are completely justifiable
>>28262141
Yeah. I found out I was up for one because a kid lofted a brick over a wall into our temporary PB and it split my scalp open.
Just told my CO "sir, I dont want it for some bullshit like that" before he could submit it.
Sometimes officers get carried away trying to "help thier guys out" and shovel honors at them that they might not even want or feel they earned.
Had a guy blow his knee out during a convoy op when we hit a ditch do something similar speaking to his chain of command about it to clarify that it was an accident and not a combat wound.
I HAVE seen an entire company of cooks, admin, data techs, and motor T mechanics get awarded thier combat action ribbon because a 107mm rocket impacted the opposite side of the fob from where they slept (almost 1km away).
You get to see who is greedy and who isnt real quick, about half of them claimed they are certified combat vets cuz the ribbon says so, the other half just didnt wear it and were honest about it.
Bottom line is ribbons and medals arent the reason you serve and if some petty bullshit like that is the only reason you do then youre a fucking faggot and nobody likes you, and your nickname is probably going to be "war hero" spat at you sarcastically for as long as anyone who was there and knows its bullshit is around.
>>28262239
Tell me you are joking. Or that you're trolling. Or that you're ineligible for service. What you're proposing, even against a tyrannical officer, goes against every military value. It's despicable.
KILLING ONE OF YOUR OWN?
Even if that officer sends you into a hot zone, unless he tries to kill you himself... I can't even fathom how you think that is ok.
It's not okay, man.
>>28262360
I agree.
Fragging is something that only happens when your military is comprised of poorly trained ghetto filth and white trash conscripts.
Were there officers I hated or resented. Fuck yeah. Did they force us into deadly scenarios for personal glory or out of incompetency? Yeah, thats why we hated them.
But you go to a unit family event and see that he has a wife, or a toddler, or parents and how even though hes flawed hes still human, and one of your own.
If you have a problem you report that shit up to higher, request mast if you have to. But you dont kill em, because you are a fucking professional, and a goddamned man, and you handle shit accordingly through the proper channels and chain of command.
>>28259922
>Ambrose isn't perfect, but he does review all those records you mention. Plus he interviewed Germans fighting on the other side in those battles.
He may have done. The trouble is he doesn't source his work like a real historian should - BoB doesn't include a bibliography or extensive footnoting (beyond a small 'Acknowledgements and Sources' section). I'm not sure he even includes a list of his interviewees. And its obvious, from - for example, the Forczyk review, that he hasn't read the key texts, like the Greenbooks or Stanton's ORBAT of the US Army in England.
He did interview at least one German officer, but its obvious he hasn't reviewed the German sources other than that; hence why he gets dozens of German names wrong and misidentifies every German tank as a Tiger and every German unit facing East as 'crack' - they usually weren't.
>He draws heavily on veteran quotes in the book, because that's the most emotionally impactful, but that doesn't mean the other source weren't used.
If he's writing history, his job isn't to be 'emotionally impactful'. That's for novelists. His job is to inform and to relay historical truth, well, truthfully.
Even then, he could still have the emotionally impactful interviews and the documentation. If he'd done that, his access to Easy vets would be a crown jewel on a great work of history. As it is, its a completely inadequate skeleton on which to hang his narrative.
>>28250157
>>28262407
>see that he has a wife
And you have sex with that wife. After you kill him.
>>28249979
He was a McClellan.
He trained great soldiers. But he wasn't a field commander.
>oh he trains as too hard, das racis,, I joined an elite regiemtn and then complain about the training being too hard. I will tell mommy about this.
>>28250985
ambrose has also been shown to be a massive fraud didn't he fake all his interviews with Eisenhowewr?
>>28262593
>tumblr tier post
>literally got the picture off tumblr
the tumblr invasion is real
>>28262141
Yeah...I guess shit like that does happen.
My BSM was downgraded due to my rank.
>Was submitted for it due to being directly responsible for the capture of 20HVTs in one fell swoop.
>Also credited with clearing a city of insurgents using deception.
>Further supported with getting intel on the location of three implaced IEDs and a weapons cache.
>Was told I didnt have the rank for a BSM
>My NCOIC got one for going to Iraq.
>>28256351
>Ambrose was only really interested in one kind of historical research: interviewing veterans
I'm reading this right now and I'm kind of feeling the same vibe.
I mean, I like how these guys focus on the "human" aspect of war, but it also leads to a rather incomplete mess of anecdotes that don't really give you a picture of the conflict as a whole.
I guess you have to trade the human aspect for the technical and vice-versa
>>28262114
>Racists, sending whatever race they didn't like to die on suicide missions.
That was my grandpa in nam. Niggers on point
>>28262114
>Racists, sending whatever race they didn't like to die on suicide missions. Thieves, big and small.
Top kek, Sobel was a piece of shit but at least he wasn't racist.
>>28250893
>Sobel never saw a second of combat
He jumped into Normandy but not with easy company. He was rewarded the CIB. It is even on his fucking wikipedia.
>>28262733
Congrats on ur lack of reading comprehension
>>28254075
You sound like somone whose never even been to any kind of combat
I bet you were pretty hated too judging by how easily offended you are
>>28262733
At least he wasn't right anon. Ask me how I know you're a spic nigger
>>28262718
I've actually heard that their skin tone actually helped disguise their approach compared to Pasty McWhitefag.
>>28263022
LOL we need more niggers in infantry.
>>28263022
This is noted in All Quiet on the Western Front of the black French colonial troops. Their lit cigarettes was the only thing the Germans could see.
>>28263071
Unless the troops were naked, they wouldnt have seen them regardless of skin color due to their uniforms.
>>28250036
I'd like it if more people who are in favor of social healthcare would listen to more stories about current government sponsored healthcare already in place before deciding they want it to be the standard for all of us.
>>28259922
>Ambrose isn't perfect, but he does review all those records you mention.
The very thing is that he doesn't. For example his description of combat around Eindhoven in BoB is more than slightly different from US reports and has zero resemblance to British and German reports.
>>28262651
Yeah, you're right, although Beevor usually does a fairly thorough review of the secondary literature; Ryan for D-Day, Erickson for Stalingrad and Berlin, etc. He tends towards individual POV because that's what he likes, and he certainly makes his mistakes, but he's a mile ahead of Stephen Ambrose.
>I guess you have to trade the human aspect for the technical and vice-versa
I disagree - obviously its hard to balance them, but that's what separates the men from the boys, story wise. A good example would be Richard J. Evans' Third Reich Trilogy, where he does a good job of explaining the high-level social and economic forces that shaped events, but peppers the book with diary excerpts from Luise Solmnitz and Victor Klemperer to give a ground view.
>>28262996
Offended by some kid on the internet? I think not.
More like let down by you. Its not really your fault I guess. At 18 you dont knoe jack shit, but think you have seen the world. In OSUT they pounded into your head that you were the best, and that YOU were the one who would matter, but they left out that they tell everyone that, at every IET site, for every MOS. You were eager to deploy, to use all these skills you learned with sweat and pain. Like a kid with a new toy you wanted to play. But then the draw down came, of you got to deploy at all, it wasn't a "combat patrol erry day" drployment. So you spent your few years in the military playing war games and doing rotations at NTC. Perfect little simulations, where the enemy thinks and acts just like you would if you were on that side.
But in a real war, it isnt like that. The enemy breaches the wire. They come in the darkness with syringed to knock you out and take you away. They snipe at us. They blow up our POGs convoying from base to base. They shoot mortars at us, and when we finally got counter fire and CRAM, they just shot more to overwhealm us.
So we veterans did our part. Tankers traded Abrams for Humvees and did patrols. National Guard got battle space. 11Bs were relieved to see 88M roll up with 10 mounted M2's. Cooks hit the berm and returned fire. Admin MOS's climbed into guard towers and at least one linguist got a knife kill.
That is war little brother. It cares not what your MOS is. When it finds you, it tests you.
>>28262554
I think you're mixed up about the difference between a popular work and an academic work.
A popular book is aimed at a general audience. Its job is to promote and popularize findings from academia. Evidence and citations are limited to what's emotionally or intellectually stimulating for a nontechnical audience, or what will build credibility if I'm challenging the common view. Even if you have hundreds of sources, you don't necessarily mention all or even most of them.
An academic work is written to the standards of a peer-reviewed journal article, and often is peer-reviewed itself. It's intended for a highly trained specialist reader and there you really do aim for a comprehensive discussion of all your sources and methods.
Often historians will write two books at once: one for historians and the other for the general public. The standards of scholarship are the same but the tone, language and level of detail are totally different.
>>28263878
Haha wow.
You are watching too much band of brothers
Relax POG, get some experience and then tell that tale again
>>28264359
>The standards of scholarship are the same
This is the damn point! Ambrose's scholarship in BoB is bad. We know its bad because the book is riddled with errors and unwarranted hyperbole. We know he hasn't read very many primary and secondary sources, because he makes mistakes that he wouldn't make if he had.
BoB is not the academic position, 'promoted and popularized'. It is shoddy scholarship. The lack of footnotes would be fine if he was right. He isn't. The book is full of mistakes. Ambrose was a plagiarist and a hack.
And even if you were right, it still doesn't mean we should accept the book as a definitive source!
>>28263878
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
this has to be copypasta
>>28263878
Is this the POG creed or something?
>>28253822
>>28263878
Jesus christ "ssg". Sit the fuck down dude.
You're a pog, and thats fine. One team, one fight. Your job is important.
But don't tell me with a straight face that you've been in a third of the combat that I've been in.
>>28250086
"malnutrition" is old VA code for "drank himself to death"
>>28250036
Does any one know where he is buried ... I kinda want to leave flowers or something...
>>28251026
Are they really relates also why did they get a jew to play a white guy who looks nothing like the real guy
>>28269840
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=19055620
Montrose Cemetery
Chicago
Cook County IL
According to findagrave
>>28249979
Don't really get all the hate. You're not supposed to be a bro with your men. And you're supposed to train hard.
So, training is unfair? Well so is war.
>>28272266
Heading that way for Christmas leave in 2 days. I'll be sure to pay my respects. I'll make a thread about it.
>>28250126
Hah i've read this comic
>>28272729
My thoughts exactly.
>>28250893
He dropped in Normandy and was also in Market Garden.
He finished as a Lt. Col so he couldn't of been that bad,
>>28266067
>And even if you were right, it still doesn't mean we should accept the book as a definitive source!
Ah ha! Look, you said something I agree with.
>>28273226
That would be cool, anon. You should totally do it.
>>28273319
Eh? I don't follow.
>>28262360
>KILLING ONE OF YOUR OWN?
If that asshole is the one trying to get you killed by doing stupid shit or making your unit do stupid shit, then he's not one of us. In fact, he's even worse than the enemy.
You can go die for that officer's medal, but i'd rather risk leavenworth.
>>28250036
Came to post this. Sad shit. Nobody deserves to die that way. Dude lingered for twenty fucking years then starved to death.
>>28273395
As long as it doesn't get sent to /trash/ for not being weapon related.
