Should more nations be moving back to using 7.62x51mm NATO?
Already Turkey and Germany have made the change, Germany retiring the G36 in favor of the HK417, and Turkey going to their HK417 rip off.
In addition, Argentina still issues FALs, Austria uses FALs as a drill rifle, the FAL sees limited use in Belgium, Brazil has their domestically made rifles based on the FAL's design, Denmark issues G3s, and so does Estonia, Japan has the Howa Type 64, but who knows how much use that actually sees, Norway's Home Guard uses the G3, Pakistan's army uses the G3, South Africa still issues the FAL, Sweden uses the G3, Switzerland's Stgw-57's 7.5x55mm round is comparable to 7.62x51mm, and some of the United State's special forces units have adopted the SCAR 17.
Is 5.56 starting to become less relevant as armor technology improves, is it actually a good idea to switch to a full power rifle cartridge instead of an intermediate round?
Does this mean the US can finally use the AR-10 as a universal combat rifle, filling nearly every role like Stoner intended?
>>28094743
afaik Germany only bought a couple thousand 417s for the few forces that will actually see any action. no real, large scale switch.
>>28094775
They're replacing any G36s that break with HK417s, and by 2019 they plan a large scale replacement plan.
It's not as much about terminal performance as it is lightweight and still sort of effective. When in combat, unless you are in a stable, supported stance, your accuracy goes to shit pretty quickly. Having more rounds to put down range is more necessary, and the small, lightweight qualities of the 5.56 reigns supreme.
>>28094743
You'll get lower capacity and more weight, though it immensely outperforms the .223
The real issue is .223 sucks so goddamn much. But we should be looking into switching to a 6.5, 6.8, or .300 blackout
>>28094743
>turks
>HK ripoff
Nope, they actually use HKs tooling and were trained by the Germans, which is why you're seeing a bunch of nice and cheap Turk guns, especially the zenith ones
>>28094860
Nope, their new rifle the MKEK MPT-76 is like an AR-10/HK417 thing made domestically.
>>28094743
>Is 5.56 starting to become less relevant as armor technology improves
Such as....?
Durka's don't wear armor.
>>28094916
ISIS is equipped with armor.
And part of a military is still being able to compete with other foreign powers, most of which have armor that beats 5.56.
>>28094743
Estonian conscripts are issued G3 variants because we got a shitton of them for a symbolic price from the Swedes, spares and ammo included. Our professional troops are issued Galil's.
Going to 7.62 had nothing to do with the supposed inadequacy of 5.56 but a purely cost based decision.
>>28094916
syrians seem to be wearing stolen police vests and looted armor in almost every single picture ive seen.
A whole new plethora of modern battle rifles.
My dick is diamonds.
Texas here, let's get us a .45 Colt combat rifle as a standard infantry rifle somewhere folks
>>28094743
>Is 5.56 starting to become less relevant as armor technology improves
a smaller, faster moving projectile will go through armor easier than a big slow one.
>>28094910
honestly i just want that bad ass carry handle.
>>28094791
they're not replacing 5.56 on large scale. the 417 just happens to be the only in production rifle other than the G36 already accepted for service.
>>28095561
> 7.62 real fucking NATO
> slow
Pick one.
>>28095561
Are you retarded or pretending to be one?
>>28094860
>turkroaching this hard
>>28095561
It's like you don't know how bullets work, on a weapons board. If it weren't impossible, I'd say you might not even own any weapons!
>>28096136
>>28096132
>>28096121
p=F/A
minimize A and/or maximize F = More p.
>>28095561
I need your mother's contact info. I want to start a retard mill, and she seems to breed promising stock.
>>28096149
Find me a plate that 7.62 can't penetrate but 5.56 can.
>>28094743
>Germany retiring the G36 in favor of the HK417, and Turkey going to their HK417 rip off.
Germany is using the 417 as a reserve weapon until they have something to replace their G36s that dont work allegedly, they just sent out requirements for people to send them a potentially new rifle
>In addition, Argentina still issues FAL
They use Surplus m16s as well but ok
> Austria uses FAL as a drill rifle
their main rifle is the AUG drill rifles are irrelevant
>the FAL sees limited use in Belgium
FNC is their raifu of choice
>Brazil has their domestically made rifles based on the FALs design
yeah, that they've built for 556 now
>Denmark issues G3
nope, Colt Canada C8s
>and so does Estonia
Conscripts do professional troops use Galil
>Japan has the Howa Type 64, but who knows how much use that actually sees
essentially none, because one its japan, and two it got made obsolete by the Type89 because the Type64 is unreliable, innacurate, has shit controls and is over all bad
>Norway's Home Guard uses the G3
everyone else uses the HK 416 in norway
>Pakistan's army uses the G3
that they do, but this is only because they're poor as fuck and dont have the funds to change
> South Africa still issues the FAL
nope Galil clones
>Sweden uses the G3
uh... no they use the ak5
>Switzerland's Stgw-57's 7.5x55mm round is comparable to 7.62x51mm
what the fuck does this have to do with anything? they use the 550 now
>and some of the United State's special forces units have adopted the SCAR 17.
They got a handful for DMR roles
>Is 556 starting to become less relevant as armor technology improves
>556
>less relevant
no youre just a dumb nigger dont worry
>a full power rifle cartridge instead of an intermediate round?
theyre both intermediate dickhead
>Does this mean the US can finally use the AR-10 as a universal combat rifle
>will one gun ever do everything?
lol no
Nato adopted 5.56x45 across the board over 7.62x51 for a reason read a fucking book nigger.
fuck off with this.
>>28096170
Good post, but 7.62 NATO isn't an intermediate cartridge.
>>28096149
So you are retarded.
>>28096177
>Good post, but 7.62 NATO isn't an intermediate cartridge.
except for the fact that it is
"An intermediate cartridge is a firearm cartridge that is less powerful than typical full-power battle rifle cartridges such as the United Kingdom .303 British, Russian 7.62×54mmR, German 7.92×57mm Mauser or United States .30-06 Springfield"
308 has less power than 30-06 (however slight) because of less case capacity and shorter length, also the fact it was developed for a rifle that could fire in semi and full auto defines it as one.
You may call it a "battle rifle" round but back in its development and until the 556 came along, it was an intermediate.
>>28096191
Read the caption to the image immediately to the right of the wiki line you just quoted.
>>28096185
so you're saying physics is wrong? pressure isn't actually force over area?
>>28096156
Damn that gif is satisfying
>if you read that gif with a hard g sound then you're fucking wrong
>>28096149
>>28096201
>p=F/A
P is for pressure, not penetration, and pressure isn't nearly the same thing as penetration.
>>28096201
A heavier bullet carries more energy asshole, the area of contact is almost the same in both cases.
>hurr durr but muh body armor dat stops 5.56
Because switching to .308 will magically render all body armor useless
Except it won't
Level III is rated for 6 rounds of 7.62x51
Level IV is rated for 1 (one) round of M2 Ball
Please kill yourselves you fucking morons
>>28094743
Oh shit, Norway's Elite Home Guard uses 7.62x51? Better write your congressman immediately, the SEALs will want to hear of this.
>>28096259
Level III is soft body armor I thought
>>28096170
>Sweden uses the G3
>uh... no they use the ak5
The Home Guard, which makes up the majority of the military, still uses the G3.
>>28094910
The company website stated that it is a 4 moa rifle. Eww.
>>28096308
Lol fuck you i am elite :p
>>28096242
>A heavier bullet carries more energy asshole
that would be the force part of p=f/a.
>the area of contact is almost the same in both cases.
initial contact maybe.
>>28094743
>Norway's Home Guard uses the G3
The norwegian army, navy, air force, royal guard and the home guards task force uses HK416, (417's as marksman rifles) the other home guard guys gets the AG3 because we have a lot of them stored after they were switched out from the army and they are already familiar with them from their conscript days, so the home guard doesn't have to spend money on buying tens of thousands of 416's and time on new training.
>>28094743
Greece uses the G3 as well
>>28094743
>MUH BATTLE RIFLE FANTASIES
Nope, sorry, pretty much everything you said is wrong.
There also isn't any plate that stops a 5.56 but not 7.62x51, so your entire point is fucking retarded.
>>28094834
Green tip sucks. Alot of the attributed poor terminal performance of the 5.56 caliber steams from the m855 round. Other rounds do the job quite well from 0-600m where the vast majority of small arms combat is found.
>>28096157
Basic bitch AR500 level 3
>>28096191
If you compare modern .30-06 to modern .308 or 7.62x51, that is true. However, due to propellant advancements after WWII, engineers were able to squeeze the same power from 40's spec 30-06 into 7.62 Nato which saved weight and bulk.
>>28096310
Level IIIa is soft.
>>28096170
>Norway's Home Guard uses the G3
>everyone else uses the HK 416 in norway
>Everyone
Home guard= 45 000 soldiers
"everyone" else= roughly 16 000 soldiers.
Sadly the home guard is starting to issue HK's for everyone now as well.
>>28096226
I can't remember which is the hard 'g' and which is the soft 'g'. But if you pronounce it 'ghif' and not 'jif', you're a tremendous faggot.
>>28096226
>The Graphics Interchange Format (better known by its acronym GIF
>>28096121
It has more energy than 556 but it's slower.
He's saying increase the energy by increasing velocity and not mass
>>28095561
daily reminder that people who know nothing about anything will regularly post and pretend to be a good source of information
>>28094910
>Nope, their new rifle the MKEK MPT-76 is like an AR-10/HK417 thing made domestically.
Euhm, as soon as HK started on the HK417, the Turks were codeveloping it and had acquired domestic production rights.
However, the Turks did not want to field an exact copy and further modified it to fit their military better.
Ironically, for the first production models, the Turkish models actually were made with better materials than the German HK ones and faced fewer issues. Still, nowadays it appears that the HK417 is "fixed" and current production is up to snuff.
>>28094860
Then why do their mp5 clones cost $1500?! Those fuckers are ripping us off
>>28096882
>Then why do their mp5 clones cost $1500?! Those fuckers are ripping us off
Please realize that that's CHEAP compared to the rest of the world?
The same shit is sold for 2000+ euros in the EU.
It's not just the production costs, but also all the bullshit that comes later that needs to be factored in. You also add a significant amount of people to the supply chain, who want to make a buck as well.
>>28094910
Turk here, afaik those things aren't in use, at least not yet. The G3 is still the go-to.
>>28095442
Fallout 4 has a decent design for you to copy.
>>28094743
ITT: A caliber debate that was settled in the 1960s.
>>28094743
>United State's special forces units have adopted the SCAR 17
OP does not understand what a designated marksman rifle is.
In fact most of that list is very misleading, as you're listing off either designated marksmen weapons used alongside intermediate service rifles, or you're listing countries who use literally whatever they can get their hands on because they are poor.
>>28095394
fat lot of good an old rotten soft vest will do against 5.56
>>28096170
you're doing god's work
>>28096226
fucking /g/ autism I swear.
>and there's people on this board who'll call you pedantic if you bring up the whole "clips and mags are different" thing
>>28096170
Type 64's never left japanese service.
A scoped sniper variant is still in use to this day with the ground self defense force but in practice there was a very strong preference and issue of the M24 instead - to the point that it's in armories but basically not issued.
DM's would rather take a M24 and the SDF had plenty, it's being phased out by HK 417's.
The regular Type 64 battle rifle served in reserve use for the longest time and are now mostly used by the navy or air force POG types.
>Brazil has their domestically made rifles based on the FALs design
>yeah, that they've built for 556 now
There is a new 7.62 variant as well - broadly similar to the 5.56 variant (which is standard issue)
>>28096882
> Sig Brace
>>28096353
>force and energy are the same thing
Nobody is taking you seriously for a reason.
>>28096315
>The Home Guard, which makes up the majority of the military, still uses the G3.
Native swedes call them the Mushroom Pickers for a reason, anon.
The Home Guard doesn't matter for shit.
5.56x45mm penetrates armor better because of the velocity it reaches, M193 ball actually penetrates armor better than M2 ball fired out of a 7.62 nato. 7.62 nato also is a lower pressure version of .308 winchester.
![a757b8c0569be3aef354923c717b1f99[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/NyjiYFu.jpg "a757b8c0569be3aef354923c717b1f99[1].jpg")
>>28094791
does this mean by 2020 there will be G36 parts kits?
>>28094743
Wooo real fuckin' NATO is back! If this actually happens will Russia go to 7.62x54R maybe in a rifle?
>>28103286
>rimmed ammo
When will Russia join the 20th century?
>>28094743
>people make piston ar-15s sine 60s
>hk makes a piston ar in 04
>all other piston ars that follow are somehow hk ripoffs
Fuck the fanboys.
6.5 grendel > 308
Everyone knows GP11 is the pinnacle of military ammo.
>>28094834
I think we should stick back to the original contenders of the intermediate cartridge in the 7mm platform (.280 British, 7mm Optimum, 7mm High velocity, 7mm 2nd Optimum)
>Not like the U.S. and their autism will allow it to happen anyways
>>28094834
6.8 offers nothing over 77gr 5.56
6.5 Grendel is interesting, but a universal cartridge doesn't really makes that much sense outside of extreme cases of muh delinking
>>28105729
.280 British had a variety of loads, some of which were roughly equivalent to full caliber rounds. One of its reported criticisms in the EM-2 was lack of controllability in automatic fire
>>28102419
Haha, no. Germany will trash them before they sell them to civilians.
>>28096322
thats not that bad actually hell the m4 can be 4moa and still meets milspec requirements
at least they are being realistic about it and what do you expect with turkish ammo
The Only Answer
>>28098772
The regular military has about two functional battalions. The Home Guard has 40.
>>28096136
nice movie reference anon
>>28106852
So the best humans can come up with in the Halo future is a rip-off of a Soviet sub-sonic intermediate round designed in the 80's?
Maybe they should have put more work into automated recoil compensation so we could have something like a fully automatic .375 H&H.
>>28096310
Level IIIA is soft armor. Level III has a plate.
The longer range shots sometimes needed can be taken with a 7.62 marksman rifle and a 7.62 light machine gun. Together that's some very dangerous long range surpression and killing power, while everyone else can continue to carry 5.56 for the other advantages. Best of both worlds?
>>28096882
>POF
>Pakistan Ordnance Factories
>Turkish
