You're Chief of Staff of Turkey's armed forces. Assuming NATO will sit this one out, how do you win conventional war against Russia?
Preemptive strike at Crimean naval base?
Attack their expeditionary corps in Syria?
Just close the straits and go full defensive mode?
>>28032795
>Implying
False flag a russian attack on somewhere in Turkey with some US troops
Hope it works.
Muslimification of world, with american jewery help.
>>28032795
>assuming NATO will sit this one out
Well if we are in total imagination mode and can just make shit up I would use my Turkish orbital laser systems to glass Russia.
NATO wouldn't sit it out, that is the most retarded scenario to ever be proposed. If it was conventional the USA would shit all over Russia. If it went nuclear, well, let's hope Fallout properly trained me.
>>28032867
>Implying we would go nuclear over Turkey
Close the straights
mine the coast line and beaches.
Get ready for total war( industries and media converting to the production of supplies and propaganda)
Propaganda
Establish a wartime draft.
>>28032795
Send a diplomatic envoy to Russia providing them with trading concessions,monetary peace offerings and off the record give them full run of the F-35 squadrons after they have been acquired and all the current NATO weaponry Turkey has.
If NATO won't stand with me I won't stand with them
>>28032795
Why is Turkey fighting a conventional war with anyone?
Russia got bit after poking a little to much at Turkey,they know where the line in the sand is now.
>Russia might invade!
Literally retarded strategic move
>Russia would use nukes
Using nuclear weapons against a nuclear armed NATO member?
Oh ok lol
>>28033224
?
Russia has deported all turks in their country, ended all trade with turkey, started bombing turk vehicles entering syria, etc
>>28033308
>>28032795
Is Russia getting ready for a reconquest of Constantinople?
>>28032795
You don't
>>28033336
COUNT ON GREEK SUPPORT
>>28033666
Devil trips confirm
>>28033585
>t.boris
>>28033308
oh no, a couple of superficial things
is there a concerned letter mixed in?
>Preemptive strike at Crimean naval base?
>Laughing S-400 battalion.jpg
Why do people here still fucking think russia would lose to Turkey of all countries? Half of nato fucking hates turkey, and Turkey is surrounded by enemies, this isn't the cold war or 1991 Era russia, this is modern russia you're talking about, losing a conventional war to muslims
>>28032867
If Turkey fires first, NATO is not obligated to aid in the war.
>>28032795
Gather the prettiest turkish girls you can find.
Send them to Russia for....reasons.
Maybe they're tired russian qts.
>>28035231
Why do you think Russia would be able to win against Turkey?
If it happens, I guarantee NATO gets involved.
It will try to stay out but Poland and Lithuania are baying for Russian blood. They'd declare war using NATO and preempting themselves becoming Ukraine 2.0 as justification.
After that NATO has to either go all in or lose all street cred.
>>28035176
bombing turkish convoys in syria are not "superficial" things
Ending 30 billion worth of trade is not superficial
>>28035316
A defense budget 3x larger, much larger air force, navy and army.
>>28035383
And no real ability to move it into Turkey.
>>28035376
Yes blowing up aid convoys and a bread factory, really showing how mighty Russia is.
>>28035437
convoy transporting oil from ISIS and a weapons dump...
>>28035416
It's not like georgia or bulgaria/romania have any love for the russians
Russia is already moving 150,000 troops to syria
>>28035451
Nope.
>>28035476
>Russia is already moving 150,000 troops to syria
Oh wait, you are serious.
>>28035416
Except for you know, the hundreds of tactical and strategic transport aircraft they have as well as aerial refueling aircraft to supply fighters, strike and bombers.
>>28035478
>factory explodes into a massive fireball
>id waz bread!!!11!
spotted the turkroach
>>28032795
>You're Chief of Staff of Turkey's armed forces. Assuming NATO will sit this one out, how do you win conventional war against Russia?
You don't enter the war with Russia because there's no chance of winning.
>Preemptive strike at Crimean naval base?
That's the equivalent of pissing on a hornet nest.... you'll feel great doing it but you ain't gonna do shit and will end up dead.
>Attack their expeditionary corps in Syria?
With what? Step #1 would be to pass through air defenses. And you have a slim chance of doing that.
>Just close the straits and go full defensive mode?
That's an act of war. And they'll break through and then what?
>>28035531
Oh look, someone doesn't know what a dust explosion is.
>>28035548
it wuz dust 'splosion
dey dindu nuttin
turkman was good boy
>>28035513
So what you are really saying is, Russia will spend months building up an army in Syria, and everyone will pretend it is not happening.
>>28035556
Pretending to be retarded is not the best method of making a point.
![Twilley-In-Defense-of-the-Cockroach-1200[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/WIDRGgd.jpg "Twilley-In-Defense-of-the-Cockroach-1200[1].jpg")
>>28035548
>http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d87_1448823518
"dust"
>>28035231
>modern Russia
They can't afford to go to war now unless the population can somehow substitute food with Russian propaganda.
>>28035572
So what you are really moving the goalposts to, is from strategic and tactical capacity (which they have) to foreign policy.
>>28035587
It drives you insane that a Muslim country put Russia in its place.
>>28035596
>those euro GDP's declining
Absolutely disgusting
>>28035647
nice trolling.
>>28035662
The UK is eating their souls.
>>28035647
Teşekkürler sultan Erdogan
>>28035625
>dodge Russia's lack of force projection
>N-No! You are moving goalposts!!!
>>28035678
>100 miles from russian border = force projection
>could just drive through fellow christian turk hating countries
>>28035668
nice shitposting
>>28035678
>Prove that Russia has the ability to project its forces through aerial assets
>Apparently this is goalpost moving
>>28035678
Americu.cks still haven't entered Syria's airspace. They be scared shitless.
And Turkish planes are being painted the moment they lift off Turkish airbases.
LMAO
>>28035692
Because Georgia and Algeria would be so happy to let a Russian army into their country.
>>28035662
>>28035674
EU was a mistake.
They joined a union where the leader literally hates herself and her country. Now, why the fuck would you do that.
pic unrelated.
>>28035698
>prove that Russia can use another country as a staging area
>anon thinks this is force projection
>>28035728
That list is hilariously optimistic for Russia's airstrikes in Syria.
>>28035476
Remember not every member of the military is engaged in frontline fighting. Could very well be 150,000 civ engineers, mechanics and builders
>>28032795
Thumbnail makes guy's head look like the devil.
>>28036383
it fucking does
>>28036383
That's because he IS the devil
>>28035741
>Georgia
The country they steamrolled in six days?
>Algeria
Wut?
The Russians also have a military base in Armenia.
From Russian controlled Abkhazia to Turkish controlled territory, that's a 3 hour drive without traffic.
>>28032795
>Assuming NATO will sit this one out, how do you win conventional war against Russia?
Technically speaking, we can't, but I'll concentrate a large portion of my forces close to Armenia and Syria, because >>28038263
Just turn it to a war of attrition and force them to sue for peace, because if the Russians really get angry, we're nuked anyway.
>Preemptive strike at Crimean naval base?
And that does what? They don't have a viable fleet there. Russian strength is concentrated within their army, air force, and missile forces. Which means that you should prevent them from getting airfields in Georgia and Armenia to operate in Turkey.
>Attack their expeditionary corps in Syria?
I probably would, but would not concentrate on it too much. Most of the Russian forces will come from the northeast.
>Just close the straits and go full defensive mode?
That declares war and really does nothing to the Russians. Their strength is not in their navy.
>>28033666
Those trips though
>>28036383
!!
>>28032956
NATO falls if you don't, and with it, your American empire. Not using that term negatively, mind you. The absolute hegemony of the United States is the only true peacekeeper on this planet.
>>28038263
The Georgian military has undergone significant modernization and re-armament since their conflict with Russia.
>>28032795
>Blonde hair, blue eyes man on banner
'kek'
>>28033336
The last time(s) they tried it didnt end so well.
>>28038445
>>28038330
>>28038175
>>28036383
Muhammad, pls
>>28038430
So did France after ww1
>>28032956
>nuclear
NATO won't go nuclear, because it can win conventional.
Russia would go nuclear only if at risk of losing their homeland.
That's why NATO won't invade Russia, no matter how successful they will be. At worst Russia will get bombed to rubbles, and will back at game in 2 decades or so.
>>28038524
Post-WWI France suffered from poor morale, insufficient numbers, haphazard modernization, and poor leadership.
>>28038517
LOL talk is cheap motherfucker
>>28035231
Russia doesn't lack force, would be formidable opponent if fighting in their own backyard, but it lacks force projection.
>>28038517
That doesn't make you white, Mehmet.
>>28032956
WW2 began because of poland
let that sink in
>>28035531
>crude oil
>exploding
>>28038562
You just went full nigger
>>28038562
well it was more to that. Hitler breaking treaties, annexing areas around Deutchland, using militia force to destabilize neighborhood countries, threating them with force into submission etc. It kind of piled up, and invasion on Poland was just ignition point.
Now that I think of it... shit
>>28038330
>>28038445
The founder of the country was blond, what of it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk
>>28038596
>meanwhile in finland
>>28038615
This is both terrifying and hilarious
>>28038556
>lack force projection
This is a fucking stupid meme. Only WE, the United States of America, have force projection that can cover the globe. But that's required for a country that is surrounded by two oceans.
Russia doesn't need that shit, since their entire country is their carrier battle group and they're hours away from the countries that will be their most likely enemies.
They own one of the best missile forces in Eurasia, have enough old bomb stockpile to do 100 bombing runs a day, have a fleet of aircraft that can do so from their European land bases, they have a base in Armenia, in Syria, and are just THREE (if google maps is accurate) hours away from Turkey via their presence in Abkhazia by passing through Turkey.
You don't need fucking force projection if you fight in your fucking backyard. It's like saying China lacks force projection so their loss in Vietnam is based on them not having aircraft carriers rather than the Vietnamese just being that damn good.
>>28032795
Sell as much stuff as I can and flee to China with millions of dollars
>>28038688
>>28038615
Russia is of scary
>>28038666
>It's like saying China lacks force projection so their loss in Vietnam is based on them not having aircraft carriers rather than the Vietnamese just being that damn good.
>"Both sides claim victory"
>Only Vietnam loses territory in the North and in the Spratlys
Good alright...
>>28038688
>implying the naked eye can see shtora.
>>28038666
Russia has to drive or ship any significant forces. The Black Sea Fleet is in poor condition and at high risk of attack even while it's in port. Any other sea-borne transport will have to be sent from Northern Europe. Abkhazia does not border Turkey meaning that Russia would have to invade Georgia in order to reach Turkey. Their base in Armenia is only a few miles from the Turkish border. It's not that Russia can't do force projection, it's that it can't do enough of it.
>>28038725
>>28038763
You are such an idiot..
Let history repeat itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Russo-Turkish_wars
>>28038767
your point?
it's not 1944 anymore. Tank commanders no longer sweep horizon with binoculars
There won't be a war but assuming it does happen and OP's scenario comes true, Russia beats Turkey. This isn't even a damn question.
But sure, keep underestimating Russia and Putin, they'll thank you for it considering how well it has worked out for them so far.
I want modern /k/ to fuck off. Crimea eternally fucked this board.
>>28038803
>Russia beats Turkey.
Eventually. But more than likely not before getting its forces in Syria wrecked along with its naval presence in the Black Sea and Med. That's not even going into the losses it'll take in the actual conflict seeing as any forward stationing area Russia could use are well within the range of Turkish missiles and artillery and Turkey having a modern and not insignificant military.
>>28038776
According to the logic of old Russo-Turkish wars, Russia is now in a much more vulnerable and disadvantaged strategic position then they were in the 19th century. No presence in mainland Ukraine and Moldavia, no land bridge through the Balkans and only limited access to south Caucasus, endangered by relations with Georgia and complicated with smoldering conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh. Disregarding the air force and strategic missile forces projection, they're somewhere at the late 17th century in terms of logistical capabilities to launch proper ground offensive.
The Turkish Black Sea Navy is larger and more modern than the Russian Black Sea Navy. Things have changed with the annexation of Crimea, but primarily with respect to coastal artillery, aviation and air defense. The Russian Navy is still operating old ships and has embarrassingly few large ships and serious submarines. And then there's lack of transport ships and experience in amphibious assaults to invade the coast - here's where couple of Mistrals and few ekranoplans could've make a difference
>>28038853
>According to the logic of old Russo-Turkish wars, Russia is now in a much more vulnerable and disadvantaged strategic position then they were in the 19th century. No presence in mainland Ukraine and Moldavia, no land bridge through the Balkans and only limited access to south Caucasus, endangered by relations with Georgia and complicated with smoldering conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh. Disregarding the air force and strategic missile forces projection, they're somewhere at the late 17th century in terms of logistical capabilities to launch proper ground offensive.
As much as I hate le weed man trudeau and slimy limy john oliver's chronological snobberism- ah fck it- "Its 2015 already".
. Turkey cant do much anyway with its military- like holy shit Istanbul and all coastal areas and further slightly inland are within range of Russian Strategic Aviation. If those bombers are slinging X-101s and X-55 derivatives(they have thousands of those just sitting in warehouses courtesy of Soviets) then there is literally nowhere to hide Turkey. a presence in mainland Ukraine and Moldavia doesnt matter when you have Crimea too, Georgia is pacified and still remember 8.8.8 and Nagorno-Karabakh is business as usual for a frozen conflict.
>>28038853
>The Turkish Black Sea Navy is larger and more modern than the Russian Black Sea Navy. Things have changed with the annexation of Crimea, but primarily with respect to coastal artillery, aviation and air defense. The Russian Navy is still operating old ships and has embarrassingly few large ships and serious submarines. And then there's lack of transport ships and experience in amphibious assaults to invade the coast - here's where couple of Mistrals and few ekranoplans could've make a difference
doesnt matter when Strategic Aviation can literally engage all those ships from inland bases, slinging big ass X-31, and X-22Ms with impunity behind IAD net
>>28039171
You can't win a war with missiles and air assets alone.
>>28035647
Sultan Erdogan too chickenshit to even hum up the engines of his wings, keeps texting Putin to please respond while instantaneously losing ''30 billion'' (as anon put it) in trade.
A subversively genius tactic from Erdogan-effendi.
>>28039251
You cant exactly engage in offensive operations when most operational targets like HQs, barracks, equipment storage facilites, ammo dumps, fuel dumps, airbases, ports, radar stations, etc. are destroyed. well you can but it all grinds to a halt sooner or later and then you find yourself out in the open getting buttblasted by Russian Air.
>>28038430
So has Russian, even more drastically, in fact.
>>28039324
Turkey has a huge Air Force and operates over 250 F-16s, produced locally under a US license. It has access to large amounts of NATO-standard payloads for F-16, whereas Russia lost access to short-range air-to-air missiles (the main armament for its plains) which relied on Ukrainian components. Their number of strike planes (460 or so) is somewhat below those of France and UK combined (over 500). Plus 9 out of 30 Turkish airbases belong to the US, and Russia would avoid attacking American personnel at all cost.
Turks have well equipped and trained military, but my major concern is that they have not been in battle.
Sure, they have been involved in low-level actions and are almost constantly in some sort of confrontation with the Kurds, but that's not the same as going head-to-head with another comparably armed force. Apart from their little adventure in Cyprus, and their measured participation in the Korean war, I can't think of any large scale military action the Turks have been involved in since WW I.
>>28035752
It's an international communist conspiracy. They even copypasted the Politburo.
>>28038555
>comparing the sick man of Europe to modern turkey
>>28039436
Russia doesn't have much experience either. The Russo-Georgian War was only two divisions on the Russian side.
>>28039380
>Turkey has a huge Air Force and operates over 250 F-16s, produced locally under a US license. It has access to large amounts of NATO-standard payloads for F-16, whereas Russia lost access to short-range air-to-air missiles (the main armament for its plains) which relied on Ukrainian components.
Who said anything about tactical fighters duking it out? Tupolevs would just sling cruise missiles at your airbases and destroy aircraft on the ground or prevent those in the air from ever coming back through suppression using sheer number of cruise missile stocks.
>Their number of strike planes (460 or so) is somewhat below those of France and UK combined (over 500).
but those countries low fighter is an F-16 or equivalent- your best fighters are F-16s and Russia should have not much problem shooting them down. especially over the open black sea where IADs traps composed of lots of S-300 launchers supported by S-400 advanced radars would literally have turkey shoots of turkish jets- if they skirt around mountains theyll find medium range SAMs like Buks scurrying around and downing them vehicular guerilla style.
>Plus 9 out of 30 Turkish airbases belong to the US, and Russia would avoid attacking American personnel at all cost.
oh wow, hiding behind US skirts, no wonder turkey's a joke. btw, US wont take too kindly to you holding their people hostage so what happens is that the turks get booted out of their own airbases or Americans leave.
>>28039509
Don't forget the Ukraine Vs Russians
>>28032795
Well OP you asked a question that is hard to answer. The simple answer is no, Turkey can't win. At least not by some old "we captured the enemy capital" metric. However, the long answer is "maybe".
You start with area denial. SAM sites, fortify borders and beaches, mines, ATGMs out the wazoo, etc. Just make it miserable going in. Remember your allahu ackbar comrades, and remember the ones in Russia who may be dissatisfied with the pro-ethnic russian zealotry spreading through the nation. Emergency drills could be useful to prevent simple fuckups, though that would likely just get your troops to a basic level of readiness and not nearly up to top-tier operating.
Remember Russia is currently "sympathetic" to pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine and is now bombing stuff in Syria. That shit gets expensive. So make it as expensive as possible to invade you.
Tl;DR, you cant beat them tank for tank. But you can make a web so sticky they wont come to play.
PS TURKEY CAPTCHA FTW
>>28039251
And you can't win without them, so what exactly are you adding here?
>>28039509
>Russia doesn't have much experience either. The Russo-Georgian War was only two divisions on the Russian side.
>>28039535
>Don't forget the Ukraine Vs Russians
they had validations of their operational doctrine(esp. in Ukraine), tactics, training, and equipment- thats a wealth of information you can study and then teach for your officers to then dessiminate to the troops. Incidentally the military reforms should kick about just last year or so where NCOs are now in plentiful abundance and so top level officers shaved off so wed see lessons infuse much faster.
>cue every deployed BTG making like a North Wind and kicking the teeth in of turkish armored divisions.
>>28039535
Hardly large scale combat.
>>28039532
I'm pretty sure that in the event of an actual conflict between the two it would be Russia slinging cruise missiles while Turkey spams missiles at Crimea and launches ground and naval assaults at Syria.
>>28038829
>Eventually. But more than likely not before getting its forces in Syria wrecked along with its naval presence in the Black Sea and Med.
This is literally the worst situation for Turkey- you just basically gave the Russians a blank check to remove the kid gloves and teach you guys a real lesson.
>That's not even going into the losses it'll take in the actual conflict seeing as any forward stationing area Russia could use are well within the range of Turkish missiles and artillery and Turkey having a modern and not insignificant military.
and all Strategic(read;civil, industrial and military infrastructure needed for a state to survive and prosper) targets gets X-101d and X-55d by Tupolevs launching from deep within Russian territory or well who are we kidding from probably everywhere- even the Southern part of the country they have that mad range on both platforms and missiles and there is literally nothing Turkey could do about it. they dont have the extensive IADS net that Russia or China has all over the Strategic parts of their country to survive such an onslaught.
>>28039596
Ukraine is small-scale asymmetric warfare relying heavily on local troops against an ill-equipped and frankly incompetent enemy.
>>28039624
>I'm pretty sure that in the event of an actual conflict between the two it would be Russia slinging cruise missiles while Turkey spams missiles at Crimea and launches ground and naval assaults at Syria.
Nice exchange- Istanbul all other cities gets cruise missiled- destroying power plants, radio towers, water facilites, electric transmissions etc. That kind of shit takes you back to North Korea levels and Russia only loses Crimea at worst- nah not really that place would get Kaliningrad IADS style makeover before shooting ever starts.
>>28032795
Nothing, Turkey can get fucked. Constantinople>Istanbul
>>28039635
you havent been really following it havent you. Its only that way(and only in ceasefires) because the North Wind kicked the shit out of the best Ukrainian armored forces so hard they are only left with nazis as effective fighting forces. btw those Ukrainian armored forces are the ones who almost steamrolled the seperatist back then so yeah they are competent and well equipped enough. If you watch both sides are prepping hard atm- the seperatists now even had enough AFVs to act like mini BTGs.
>>28039467
The Armenians were litteraly using beat up old rifles and were untrained farmers and shop keepers. The Turks got rekt because of the Determination and organization of the Armenians. Armenians had everything to lose, their nation was on the brink of extinction.
>>28038555
Trips confirms Armenia will be the death of Turkey.
>>28032795
So, while we're having this retarded hypothetical. What exactly sparked this shit between Russia and Turkey? All I've hard based on my shut-in lifestyle is that Turkey shot down a Russian jet that was skirting their air-space, but was actually in what..Syrian airspace? something they like to do quite often, and Russia is of pissed the fuck off. Is that about all there is to it? Aside from the clusterfuck with them now turning to NATO for support.
>>28032867
Article 5 is applicable only if Russia is the aggressor. If Erdogan will do something really stupid and reckless like close the straits or outright invade Syria he's on his own from there.
>>28039627
>This is literally the worst situation for Turkey- you just basically gave the Russians a blank check to remove the kid gloves and teach you guys a real lesson.
We're talking about open warfare, the kid gloves are already off unless you think Russia is going to break out the nukes. Turkey's best bet is a massive strike against local Russian forces to weaken it economically as Russia can ill afford to replace naval losses, much less the strategic losses that would accompany Assad falling.
>>28039702
>Turkey shot down a Russian jet
>something they like to do quite often
what the fuck
>>28039882
No, I meant, Russia likes to skirt the boarders/airspace of other countries in a national game of "I'm not touching you".
>>28032795
Fuck off you gobble gobble fucks, we're not laying out strategies for you for free
>>28032795
>how do you win conventional war against Russia
Depose Erdogan and offer peace to the Russians.
>>28038615
Does fingols even use "Ö" ?
>>28033336
We live in hope /k/omrade
>>28035332
Why is Lithuania want ruskie blood? Just revenge for stonping on them for years? Would they even stand a chance??
>>28035332
France, Spain, Italy, Greece and majority of Balkans are just never going to come to turkey's rescue no matter the circumstances
You can quote any article you like but in reality only countries that will mobilise for turkey are US, UK and former eastern bloc
>>28039702
Russia and Turkey have been historical rivals for a very long time.
>>28038495
Did you not read OP's post?
>>28039890
You can trust the Turks or the Russians. I trust neither.
Either way, the last shootdown of a military aircraft for a >17 second violation was in 1953.
No one else shoot's down planes heading out of their territory after 17 second violations. Turks did.
For example, Greeks and Turks (mostly turks) violate each other's airspace all the time. Only when the other's plane continued to fly in their territory have they tried shooting each other down, and that was in 1996 when Cyprus heated up again.
The Russian plane at most was in Turkish territory for 17 seconds according to the Turks own data. And it was shot down over Syria and crashed 7 km into Syria.
There's your facts and explanation.
>>28038725
>>28038767
implying
>>28033096
>>28035540
This. Honestly there's no point if NATO won't back you up. Sure you could inflict heavy casualties on Russia, but at what cost? Why not do your best to maintain diplomacy, Hell, even attempt to form a stronger coalition. Obviously though the Turks don't want that, ethnically and culturally. Honestly I think Russia should be trying to make better friends with Nato in general, open up trade and intelligence. Turkey wasn't exactly helping with that...
>>28038615
>>28038688
Delicious
>>28033096
>>28041498
These with a little addition. The minute NATO drops Turkey will be the minute Russia picks it back up. They will be buddies for life if USA decides to fuck the Turks. Turkey knows this so they play their hand accordingly. NATO won't leave Turkey alone and Russia won't fight NATO therefore this is just pointless aguing and shitposting.
Turkey is too big for Russia to devour...It's not Ukraine or Georgia
What if turkey closes the strait
how buttflustered would putin be?
>>28038517
I did not know Ataturk was so based
Now I do
Thank you /k/
>>28041031
>mfw after years of people shitposting about APS and other defensive system that aren't just armor and constantly shilling saying they don't work they end up working perfectly
>>28032795
Shoot down the rest of the aircraft they send at us.
Easily sink their ships.
Russia's 20 years behind the west, I don't think it'll be too hard for even Turkey to kick their shit in.
>>28041031
Idea:
a SACLOS is being decoyed by soft-kill IR lamps
operator notices soon enough before it flies off into the sky
CLU interpreting lamps as IR flare on missile
so the operator reverts to a kind of improvised MCLOS by moving his CLU aimpoint above/below the lamps
Aim above the Shtora to pitch down
Aim below the Shtora to pitch up
aim left of it to yaw right, aim right of it to yaw left
>>28044719
If you could pull that off and still hit your target, you'd deserve the medal of honor.
>>28044640
I dont think anyone is saying they dont work, I think they are saying you shouldnt rely solely on it
>>28044734
True. It would be like a MCLOS missile with all the controls reversed, basically
>>28044755
Which Russia and friends don't despite what everyone says. Still though people assumed that because Russians were incorporating hard and soft kill measures that it was making up for a lack of armor which isn't the case either. Also they'd shit post about them not stopping APDS and other shells... which isn't the point of it. Russia and Israel seem to be the only big arms producing nations that truly appreciate the threat of ATGMs
>>28044786
Not sure what you mean by that, America has and uses APS when ATGMs are a threat
>>28044802
They do now. But the first APS was around in the late 70's, and Russia developed on that ever since then.
>>28045107
There hasn't really been a need for it for America until now, Russian tanks and Israeli tanks have a history of getting shtistomped by atgm so it stands to reason they'd invest more time in it.
>>28045130
>here hasn't really been a need for it for America until now
Yeah, nevermind the entire period of the cold war from the 70's onward where NATO tanks were facing against Soviet tanks with a deadly array of missile systems launched from various platforms.
Let's go ahead and pretend Yom Kippur never happened while we're at it.
>>28044773
Doesn't sound too hard, it's just like playing a video game with the control axes reversed. After a couple of shots one could probably get the hang of it.
>>28045164
Missiles which never destroyed an American tank, yes.
Only chance, directly support chechnyan rebels to create a second front.
Arm any islamic group willing to fight against the russians in Syria.
Asymmetric is the only way to go when your opponent is better than you. Make them pay a price for everything.
you get fucking wrecked is what happens
Tayyip go home, you're drunk. Get off the internet.
>>28032795
The only possible chance that your government may emerge victorious is if you end up making the war unpopular to Russians.
Let's be real, Turkey alone isn't going to win a conventional war with Russia, they just don't have the assets, but Turkey can certainly get the Russians out of their country by mounting a formidable insurgency. Fighting after occupation and years of grinding away at the Russians will be the only way to effectively dismantle any Russian occupying force, simply by making it too costly and too unpopular from the Russian side to continue.
But Russia probably wouldn't be in an occupation position at all, they'd probably pull a Georgia, beat the shit out of the Turks conventionally, grab up some tech and assets to reverse engineer and run back the fuck home and try to find some other way to push the turks in through proxies. Turkey has no shortage of enemies and dissatisfied ethnic minorities in and around its borders; the kurds, for instance, could prove to be an excellent proxy. With no real military force to defend them Turkey would get eaten away in a matter of years, you can't mount an insurgency against a predominantly insurgent force in the first place. Nations like Armenia and Greece would be more than happy to pitch in too, I would wager.
>>28039700
dubs confirms trips.
Easily, that's how you win it.
Turkey, despite being a Muslim shithole, is supplied by NATO and has a very well equipped and trained military.
Russia, on the other hand, has a third world conscript army where most units are equipped with outdated shit or non-standardized shit. I mean fuck everyone was flipping out when they "invaded" the Ukraine because the troops actually all had matching uniforms, it was like a Christmas miracle.
If Putin pushes this, he will lose. But I doubt he will anyways because he isn't a retard and knows that, despite the fact that Turkey broke NATO RoE, NATO will still support them and Russia will get curb stomped back into Squatville
>>28047277
>NATO RoE
Why do people keep parroting this retard shit?
>>28032795
NATO will sit this one out. Turkey initiated hostilities by attacking Russian aircraft over Syrian soil despite there being no potential for Russia to attack Turkey.
Literally brought it on themselves. Plus fuck Turkey. They have been selling shit to ISIS for Saudi gold for the entire conflict. They want a caliphate.
>>28046204
Lets be real, Russia's might is a shadow of the former Soviet Union.
Russia would not be able to wage war on Turkey without taking terrible losses, and that is without NATO stepping in.
>>28047288
NATO has rules of engagement regarding aircraft going into their territory since the 1970s to prevent nuclear war. This is why when Russian planes go into NATO airspace, we send our planes out to radio them, then we use visual warnings to get them the fuck out of our borders. This has been the modus operandi for our forces and the Soviets (and now the Russians) for five decades until the Turks decided to be more cowboyish than we are for some reason. Now we're risking a nuclear conflagration because of some stupid saber rattling.
>>28047299
>Turkey initiated hostilities
>bomb Turkmen along the border
>repeatedly poke Turkey
>enter Turkish airspace while in a combat operation despite being warned off for 5 minutes
>Plus fuck Turkey. They have been selling shit to ISIS for Saudi gold for the entire conflict. They want a caliphate.
The irony being they are as secular as Assad's Syria, and are only interested in whatever results in more dead Kurds.
>>28047365
>Now we're risking a nuclear conflagration because of some stupid saber rattling.
4chan is an 18+ website
>>28047288
In what way is it retard shit? There is a very clear established protocol for dealing with situations like this, it was to prevent a nuclear exchange in the Cold War.
If a nation's aircraft enters your airspace, even after repeated warnings, you are NOT allowed to shoot it down if it is on an exit course (like the Russian jet was) or if the country is aware of its intentions (and the Turks were most certainly aware of it).
Just about everyone on the planet has gotten buzzed by Russian bombers before, it's almost like a right of passage for interceptor pilots to have to escort a Tupolev out of their airspace once in a while.
Turkey flipped out like the retarded monkeys they are when the correct course of action would have been for them to intercept the Russian jet and escort it out. Then again since it was in their airspace for a whopping 17 SECONDS or something like that, that wasn't feasible. So they should have just let it pass.
>>28047436
Why do you think a nuclear war would start because a plane gets shot down?
>>28047410
And ISIS results in a lot of dead Kurds. Turks love killing Armenians and Kurds and anyone that isn't Turkish or Muslim, really. Fuck em, I say.
I know Russia won't do anything, and even if they do I know Greece will never be allowed to reclaim Constantinople. But as an Orthodox Christian even the slightest possibility of one of our holiest cities being returned to us fills me with a lot of fuzzy feelings. It would be amazing to pray at the Agia Sophia again
>>28047455
In which part did I imply anything about a nuclear war, retard?
In the Cold War the doctrine was designed primarily to prevent any kind of nuclear war, considering how tense relations were. But it is equally valid in the modern age for preventing any kind of large scale military conflict between "civilized" nations.
>>28047436
>Just about everyone on the planet has gotten buzzed by Russian bombers before
Not while they are dropping bombs on your ethnic people along your border.
>>28047323
Eh, I don't think so. Turkey's military forces are not as impressive as the Russians currently have. Especially in missile technology, both offensive and defensive. As long as the Russians ground the Turkish air force with their SAM systems, they will have air superiority with their long-range bombers and air units. Then it becomes a matter of getting the Kurdish irregulars into the battle with ground troops coming from Georgia or just landing troops in Northwest Turkey. If the Kurds join up with the Russians, that would lead to Turkey fighting both a conventional and unconventional war.
After examining the theater of combat, Turkey is far more exposed to Russian attacks than Russia is to Turkish attacks, especially with the gap from the Russian air defense technology vs Turkish air capabilities. The geography funnels all Turkish aircraft attack through Crimea, and I expect that to be heavily fortified from an aerial and naval assault.
So while the Russians are a shadow of what the Soviets were once, they are still a great regional power with a large inherited weapons stockpile from the Soviet days, and Turkey is in their region. Turkey is literally less than a half a day's travel from Russia if Google's airplane travel time is to be believed (Moscow to Trabzon).
I'm not sure Russia will have terrible losses in such a conflict, to be quite honest. The Russians have been testing their combat doctrines since the Georgian War.
I am actually intrigued if there is any way Turkey can actually win a conventional war with Russia one-one-one with these factors taken into account.
>>28047521
>Not while they are dropping bombs on your state sponsored terrorists along your border.
FTFY
>>28047365
>>28047436
But seriously.
>NATO rules of engagement
This doesn't exist, faglord.
Turkey is under absolutely no obligation to tolerate airspace violations, let alone repeated airspace violations during the course of an armed conflict.
>>28047559
Nobody said they were under an obligation either. If Turkey wants to defend their airspace with lethal force, go right ahead.
But if they expect NATO's full support, then yes, they ARE obligated to follow the RoE. When they violate them, I don't want to hear them whining about how NATO abandoned them in their hour of need or some bullshit
TURK ROACHES GET OUT REEEEEEEE
>>28047521
Those ethnic people are not an excuse. They are not in their country's borders and they are rebelling against the current government of that country. Of course they're going to get bombed at.
What do you think we would do if the ethnic Canadians suddenly started rebelling against us in Minnesota and New England? We're going to do the same thing the Syrians are doing to the ethnic Turkmen.
Under international law, Canada is not allowed to do anything to protect their ethnic Canadian brethren short of declaring war.
>>28038562
Don't line your kind here... Go'n git!
>>28047576
But NATO ROE doesn't exist.
There is none.
There's no exception to Article 5 that says "unless for some reason you actually defended your airspace."
>>28047559
>let alone repeated airspace violations
Turkey has repeatedly violated Greek airspace 2200 times last year. And they are in territorial conflict over some islands in the Mediterranean.
They have not blown each other up even when there's over 17 seconds of violations in those thousands of encounters over the decade.
17 seconds of territorial intrusion is not enough reason to break NATO rules of engagement. We haven't blown up a Russian plane for over 5 decades.
Why the fuck should the Turks think they have a right to do so on a minor intrusion when they don't even get nuclear armed Soviet/Russian bombers traveling their coasts like we do in the US?
>>28047644
There is NATO RoE. It's the same shit every NATO country has done for over five fucking decades until last week. And Article 5 does not actually mandate military support, just so you know.
>>28047653
>Why the fuck should the Turks think they have a right to do so on a minor intrusion
Well, because it's their country, and they can decide whatever they want to do.
Russia knew they were bombing ethnic Turkmen in Syria, and they knew that they had violated Turkish airspace repeatedly.
They have nobody to blame but themselves for giving the Turks an excuse.
>>28047701
>it's their country
But the Turkmen are outside of their country's borders.
>repeatedly
And the Turks have been doing it to the Greeks x1000 more than the Russians to the Turks.
The Turks have no right to do something even we don't do and that they keep on doing to their neighbors.
>>28044423
>Turkey is too big for Russia to devour...It's not Ukraine or Georgia
Technically speaking, Turkey and Ukraine are pretty close in size if you look at a map.
>>28047729
>But the Turkmen are outside of their country's borders
Yeah, but the bombers are within their borders.
>And the Turks have been doing it to the Greeks x1000 more than the Russians to the Turks.
Yeah, but that's not what we're talking about now.
If Greece shot down a Turkish bomber over their airspace, it'd be perfectly legal. They'd have to deal with the economic consequences, but it's completely lawful.
>The Turks have no right to do something even we don't do
They do. We aren't the standard of morality. If you put military units into another country without that countries permission, you should expect them to be destroyed.
For fuck's sake, you're like the faggots who whine every time a burglar gets shot.
>>28047755
He probably also means the larger population
>>28047469
>Now we're risking a nuclear conflagration because of some stupid saber rattling
>>28047763
>Yeah, but the bombers are within their borders.
For 17 seconds. The Russians have also been in Israeli borders and they haven't shot the Russians down. Things that move at mach speeds generally do these things as they move through territorial borders. Which is why the Turks have violated Greek airspace more than 2000 times.
>If Greece shot down a Turkish bomber over their airspace, it'd be perfectly legal. They'd have to deal with the economic consequences, but it's completely lawful.
If you have a big gun, anything is perfectly legal. Because no one is going to stop you. The point of the rules is so that we don't get in this mess in the first place.
>They do. We aren't the standard of morality.
They don't. Yes, we ARE the standard of morality. We're the fucking top dog, we have the nukes, everyone in NATO would be BTFO if it weren't for us. No one in NATO should risk our country going to nuclear war because of some stupid macho contest. Most of NATO doesn't even spend the required amount of GDP for their armed forces budgets. They don't get a fucking say in this shit. We're 19 trillion dollars in debt and the least we could get from these people is some fucking gratitude ffs.
>>28047804
>For 17 seconds
Wasn't the first time, and if it hadn't had a sudden rendezvous with the ground, probably wouldn't have been the last.
>he Russians have also been in Israeli borders
Irrelevant to the topic at hand.
>If you have a big gun, anything is perfectly legal
If it's your country, and they're illegally moving military units through it, anything is perfectly legal.
>we have the nukes, everyone in NATO would be BTFO if it weren't for us
Russia has 1000 nukes on active duty. England and France have about 600 between them.
>No one in NATO should risk our country going to nuclear war because of some stupid macho contest
The easiest way to find yourself in a war is to appease the enemy.
>They don't get a fucking say in this shit
As long as they grant us control of the Bosporus, they're pretty important.
>>28047543
Can anyone in this thread respond to this post? I would like to hear your opinions regarding this analysis.
>>28047840
This is the final time I'll respond to your idiot ass.
>Wasn't the first time, and if it hadn't had a sudden rendezvous with the ground, probably wouldn't have been the last.
A seventeen second intrusion is not grounds to shoot the plane down. Erdogan himself said this in 2012 when Syria blew up a Turkish plane that also committed the same thing (violate Syrian airspace) the Russians did.
>Irrelevant to the topic at hand.
It shows that even the Israelis are more level-headed.
>If it's your country, and they're illegally moving military units through it, anything is perfectly legal.
We have not blown up Russian planes that have been doing this to us for over five fucking decades.
>Russia has 1000 nukes on active duty. England and France have about 600 between them.
We have 5000. Whatever England and France has, it's nothing compared to what we have. We are the nuclear umbrella of NATO. Russia also has a total nuke stockpile of 15,000 and that is why it's not something to sneeze at either.
>The easiest way to find yourself in a war is to appease the enemy.
World War I started because of a macho contest.
World War II started because of a macho contest.
Escorting planes outside of our territory is the civilized thing to do. That shit isn't appeasement. Appeasement is giving the Russians territory after they fucking do that shit. Blowing shit up after a plane crosses a border at mach speeds for 17 seconds is not civilized. It's pure "who can piss the furthest" bullshit.
>As long as they grant us control of the Bosporus, they're pretty important.
Closing the Bosporus to any country is a declaration of war, under international law. If they close the Bosporus to us, we can technically blow them up with nukes until they open the damn thing. They don't grant us anything.
We protect everyone in NATO. We don't need anyone in NATO. We're the strongest.
>>28032795
>declare Turkey a part of the Islamic state
>call upon all Muslims to jihad against Russia
Literally the only way. A small power like Turkey has no chance against Russia. They can hold out a defense considering they're not a completely inept nation, but there would be little chance at offense. This is why NATO was formed, allies are necessary if you're going to be fighting a war on that scale. If all radical Muslims (which is a good percentage) joined they can do some damage but its not guaranteed victory. What's guaranteed is a very long, drawn out war.
>>28047942
But if Turkey does that, that would make them a legitimate target for bombing by us and France/UK/whatever, right? That doesn't seem smart at all.
>>28047543
Can anyone analyze this?
Does Turkey have an actual pathway to attack Russia? Or is it doomed to a defensive war if it's a one-on-one fight without NATO? I'm looking at a map of the area and it seems like Turkey doesn't have much offensive options based on geography.
>>28047928
>We have 5000
We don't.
It's limited to 1000 active warheads by treaty.
Us and Russia both.
>appeasement is giving the Russians territory after they fucking do that shit.
If we let Russia bomb Turkey after violating their airspace, it'd make the Sudetenland look like a good idea.
>Closing the Bosporus to any country is a declaration of war, under international law. If they close the Bosporus to us, we can technically blow them up with nukes until they open the damn thing
Or we could just pretend to give a shit about them and not have to do that.
>>28032795
Kill myself, I'd rather die than be a turk
>>28048042
>It's limited to 1000 active warheads by treaty.
Actually, the United States has 4,717 active nuclear warheads as of September 2014. The Russian Federation has 4,650 active nuclear warheads in their arsenal. I think both countries have 1700 (close to it) strategic nuclear weapons that are active this year.
>>28038495
Thanks to the eternal anglo
>>28048113
What's the point of tactical nuclear weapons? Wouldn't normal large bombs be the same thing damage-wise?
Didn't Russia pull out of a nuclear treaty this year?
>>28047773
I guess you're right. Ukraine does have about 20-30 million less people it seems.
>>28047942
small power? tenth strongest military on the planet. 500,000 troops to russia's 700,000. Cutting edge americian tech, with over
1,000 combat aircraft and over 100 navel vessels. nothing to sneeze at
>>28047967
More likely the US/West would ally with isis. Not overtly but exactly like we're doing now. They don't give a fuck about ethics, its a game of thrones to them.
>>28032795
lol turk is crowdsourcing the wisdom from the strategic and tactical geniuses of 4chan to aid turkey to win a war a turk/russian war
>>28048467
>not being a strategic/tactical genius in 4chan
It's almost 2016, anon. Besides, it's all an exercise of the mind, like chess or go, but with more namecalling and shitposting.
>>28048184
>Wouldn't normal large bombs be the same thing damage-wise?
No, tactical nukes much more powerful.
>>28047543
Not that guy but
Realistically speaking the Russians would probably end up grounding any Turkish airpower simply with their SAMs. Assuming the Russians are using 40N6 missiles their air defense can penetrate up to 400km into Turkish airspace, which covers roughly more than half the way from the black sea to the Mediterranean.
A ground war in Turkey would be bloody, it's a populous, mountainous country and COIN would be a pain in the dick hole. I could see Russia succeeding in the East provided they promise the Kurds the emergence of a new Kurdish state and allow them to govern that region themselves.
If I were Russia I would attempt to ground all Turkish air assets, introduce military forces only to the Eastern regions of the country as to be supported by the Kurds and knock out major military installations with ballistic missiles.
I would also attempt to secure Istanbul and the sea of Marmara, for obvious reasons. After that the Russians can just pack up and leave, the turks would be shattered. The kurds will eat their way through the east and an occupation of the area surrounding the sea of Marmara will cut the head off the serpent. Maybe they could even get the Greeks involved by promising them Cyprus.
Either way I don't see any realistic way for the turks to strike back unless they use pixie powder to gain control over the Black sea or magic their way through regions filled with kurds who hate their guts and are armed to the teeth. And this isn't even considering Iran and Azerbaijan.
>>28048184
You'd need a really fucking huge bomb to accomplish the same result as a small tactical nuke.
>>28048649
Tell the greeks they can have istanbul back and they'll invade tomorrow.
>>28048649
Why Azerbaijan? I thought the Azeris were Turk-leaning while the Armenians were the ones who were Russian-leaning?
>>28048645
>>28048660
Didn't know that. Then what do strategic nukes do? Blow out an entire city?
>>28048700
>Greeks
>Invade
This old lion does not have any teeth already.
>>28048700
For some reason, I don't think the Greeks will do that. They seem all laid back and stuff, aside from the austerity riots. Are they becoming more nationalistic or something?
>>28048725
Strategic nukes fly over long distances and have more power. Some of them can destroy a small city entirely, yes.
>>28048700
Is that even allowed in this fantasy scenario? Russia beating up on Turkey is one thing but letting the Greeks in on the fun is just making it too easy.
Like, if Turkey did something that invalidated them from article 5, a direct act of war against Russia allowing invasion from them to be justified, what would the world do if Greece joined in on the fun? Can they even reliably sanction them? Greece is literally living in bankruptcy right now.
Having a joint op between Russia and Greece to take back Istanbul would be interesting, especially considering that the Russians could just hand the regions over to the Greeks after they're done and not have to deal with reprisals from insurgents and being drawn up in an expensive ass occupation.
I can't reliably see Russia being able to invade and occupy the whole country, I can barely see them being able to occupy the area around the sea of Marmara.
>>28048725
I meant Armenia, apologies.
>>28048725
A tactical nuclear weapon is used for tactical purposes. So it's used to wipe out, for example, a divisional HQ. Or it breaks the spearhead of an attack by wiping out a leading regiment. In Soviet usage, it blows a hole in the enemy line and is then driven through by NBC protected tanks and vehicles.
A strategic nuclear weapon attacks strategic targets: Army HQs, Cities (Which however are actually low priority), Industries, infrastructure, but mostly enemy strategic nuclear means like ICBM silos or large airbases from which enemy strategic/tactical aircraft take off from.
This can mean an airbase in germany servicing squadrons of tac air, to a strip in Alaska where B-52s take off from.
>>28039509
>Ukraine
>Chechnya
>other assorted caucus conflicts
>>28048746
how in the hell do you not know about the bad blood between the turks and greeks?
Here's a secret:
The turks, more than anyone else, are the reason the greeks are called the greeks and not the Basileia ton Romaion, are poor, and irrelevant.
Constantinople was their pride and joy for and absurdly long time. Held off literal hordes of avars, arabs, slavs, and vikings.
The turks took it from them.
Their asses have never stopped hurting. Ever.
Why the fuck would I go to war with Russia? Not "vatnik know big russia is powerful" but why the fuck bother?
>>28048883
Nationalists and armchairs are always itching for war.
Thankfully those kinds of people don't get into power in the 21st century.
>>28048827
I know they've fought wars and are in some spat over which land is whose, but from the things I've heard of the Greeks, it seems like they don't really care that much. Like the picture I've gotten from them is laid back and stuff. Like resort club attitude similar to Okinawa and shit.
>your pilots fly for 17 seconds in your trusted ally's airspace
>they get shot down
>one gets killed parachuting down by allied terrorists
>a helicopter you send for rescue is forced to land and loses 1 man due to the allies
What would the US do in this situation?
>>28048928
>trusted ally's
kek
>>28048928
Not get shot down in the first place durr
>>28032795
>Preemptive strike at Crimean naval base
We will see a terrorist attack in Crimea at some point, whether it's instigated by Turkey or KSA.
I hope she is safe...
>>28048928
Is that before or after you were militarily harassing your 'trusted ally'.
>>28048973
But what if you fly CAS mission with no support or escort and pass over friendly territory where you are suddenly shoved a missile up the ass by fighters
>>28049012
We all do, anon. She is best
>>28049029
But how
>>28032795
Tactical suicide vests for erryone and everything..
I'm going after dose sweet virgins.. Allahu Ackbar
>>28035583
Being a shill-kebab is not best investment of your limited time, don't you have civilians to kill en mass (oh wait that's what's called "resettling" in kebab-speak) .
>>28049036
>I am going to keep pretending Russia did nothing to provoke Turkey
>>28049073
Nah that is Russia's job, keep telling yourself they are bombing ISIS while you are at it.
>>28048725
Slight correction.. Azeris are something like a puppet state for Turkey receiving tons of support both financial and military (see Karabakh war).. Also a good example of how a nation with virtually no air power can still win.
>>28049088
>implying
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Turkey
>>28049029
Before.
>>28049591
Then it simply doesn't happen.
Only possibility of shotdown is by mistake, in which case Turks are sending search and rescue before Americans even realise they're one plane short, and whole incident is later signed off as case of friendly-fire.
>>28048891
Some nationalism in Europe wouldn't hurt right about now
>>28047456
Greece is a failed state because Greeks are lazy retards, they will never reclaim Constantinople and are lucky their shithole hasn't fallen apart further
>>28032795
Attack the US nuclear silos, and nuke myself to shit
>>28032795
>You're Chief of Staff of Turkey's armed forces. Assuming NATO will sit this one out, how do you win conventional war against Russia?
Nuke Istanbul
>>28033336
>Russians, the original long time allies of the Byzantine empire retake Constantinople
>Emperor Constantine the XI rises from beneath the ground and bursts forth from his marble prison, clad in armor to assist in retaking his throne
>The walls of Constantinople are instantly repaired
>The Byzantine empire is born again.
Yeah, I'm down with this. The prophecy is fortold.
