Is it safe to assume that 4.5 gen Euro canards will be done on the international market after F-35 is fully operational?
Why would anyone buy a 4.5 gen plane when you can have 5 gen plane at similar price?
>A jet with zero combat experience will force jets that have 10 years of proven combat capability and technology out of the market
"No"
>>28027718
>implying yurotriangles aren't already done
>>28027759
This.
F35 is already done
>>28027718
What is geopolitic for 500$?
Do you understand that some countrys won t buy a US made plane for different reasons
>>28028019
Those countries also won't buy French.
Everybody India included is asking if they can get F-35.
>>28028080
But the US wont sell to all of them.
IIRC the US already said no to some of the Gulf states (because of Israel)
I wonder if EU will make some stealth Typhoon upgrade after they get their hands on F-35 tech.
>>28027718
>at similar price?
>>28028545
>after they get their hands on F-35 tech.
Considering the lead nation in creating the Typhoon also helped create a not insignificant portion of the F-35, I'd say it's not much a case of "when they get their hands on" so much as "when it becomes a priority in upgrades."
Likely it'll be using some of the RAM and radar defeating edges that BAE has been developing with Taranis more in mind could be upgraded onto the Typhoon's frontal aspect. It is meant to go out to 2040 now after all. (Pic related on that research, btw)
>>28028080
Maybe they'll make a special F-35 D for them
>>28028545
Probably wont happen that way. Europeans are already looking at what will come after the 4.5Gen
BAE are developing Future Combat Air System (FCAS) with Dassault, which will be a UCAV developed from Taranis and nEUron or a multi-role manned aircraft.
As for "getting their hands on F-35 tech", things like F-35's EO DAS and other avionics will be far more interesting to the Europeans than low-observable technology. Various European projects have already produced L-O testbeds that work - it's no mystery to them.
One of BAE's L-O study platforms from the early 1990s (before JSF began) now sits outside their Warton facility:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upQ7fdhpAj4
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Replica
>>28028696
>Radar-defeating edges
Is that what you're interpreting your pic related to represent?
>>28027718
The Rafale was done a long time ago. You can count the number of users on one hand.
>>28028763
>the f35 dump jet
>designed to operate off of unmodified poop decks
>>28028080
What is India, what is Egypt
>>28028789
If I've misread something into it and have got it wrong, please do explain, rather than stop short.
Unlike most people on /k/, I'm fully open to ensure I've got the right info should something be incorrect.
>>28028816
Think about what the word "atenna lens" could mean
So anyways, why isn't USA using delta canards?
They seem to be a superior design to traditional configuration.
Even Gripen regularly shit all over older US planes like F-16 in exercises. Swedish Gripens beat the crap out of F-18's and F-16's they train with. In Greece Mirage 2000 almost always won with F-16 in simulated fights.
And then you have Rafales with their VERY good payload.
It looks like European airframes are simply better.
>>28028080
India is asking for the Navy and their new AC.
They don't have any interest for it in the Air Force. Rafale is highly preferred for that role for a variety of reasons, but namely that it is a better plane.
>C++
>>28029327
>but namely that it is a better plane.
Low quality bait.
>>28027759
Considering american planes do much better on the export market plus the fact that the euro canards will reach obsolescence before the f35 I 'd say that's a fairly accurate assessment.
>Everybody India included is asking if they can get F-35.
Kek, nice try shill.
>>28029904
But it's true.
>>28028816
They're antennas.
They reduce RCS compared to things that stick out of the fuselage, but they're "just" antennas.
Not radar-defeating-plasma-generators-with-magnetohydrodynamic-capabilites-with-fries-and-mayonnaise.
>>28029991
>fries with mayonnaise
fucking heathen
>>28029991
Thank you.
>>28029916
See: >>28029327
They are only interest in it, because there are not a whole of options as far as AC are concerned. Overall it is a bad plane.
Indian Air Force wants pic related. They will induct +200 of them. Because it is superior to the F-35.
>>28030090
Top kek. The Indians want nothing to do with the PAK-FA after all the dickery over delays and needing more funding. Especially after the maintenance fiasco and slow assrape servicing their Su-30s has become.
>>28030090
Does the PAK FA have internal weapons bays?
>>28027718
Not every nation is friendly enough with the US to buy F-35s.
>>28030090
Does pak fa have engines?
>>28029327
>better plane
nice try
>>28030183
Other nations don't want to be dependent upon the US for spares and support.
>>28028826
shitty stealth
>>28030090
>no engines
>0.1 RCS
>>28028816
Someone screen shot this post
Because I have never seen one of its caliber.
>>28028826
>Canards
>Stealth
Pick one.
>>28030219
Rafale with SPECTRA has frontal RCS of 0.25.
This is a completely different league compared to F-15/16/18.
>>28030163
Of course.
>>28030141
We will see. Their PM Modi is visiting Russia in December where they are expected to pick up the S-400, T-90 upgrades, 2nd nuclear sub lease, and finally the PakFA. Maybe also some investment in energy fields from Indian companies and maybe some new VVER nuclear reactors for India.
If they don't sign the PakFA deal, then Russia will do it on their own. Economy is picking up and inflation is under control. Oil and gas will go back up by 2016 as well.
I am confident India will go for it, as they are playing the long game and want a new Air Superiority fighter by 2030 to replace the Su-30MKI, which is what the PakFA was intended to do.
>>28030199
>>28030224
New engines will come by 2020, and will allow for super-cruise ability. RCS will be improved when more composites are used and RAM coating is applied.
There are also rumors that the new engine will feature more square-like nozzles for IR reduction on the engines, and also allow them to modify the currently semi-S shape intakes internally to full block the engine blades from radar.
>>28030090
The Indian airforce is trying to find a nice way to tell the Russians, thanks but no thanks to the PAK-FA. Maybe when Russia gets it on par with a 4.5 gen fighter, around 2020.
>>28030286
So all this means it wont be in full production until 2025 at the earliest? The US will be starting development on 6th gen airframes by then...
>>28030305
6th gen development already started. In both USA and EU.
>>28030303
Bullshit. They quite like their Su-30MKI. They only don't like the MiG-29Ms because MiG has poor servicing and reputation nowadays.
>>28030305
The older airframes can be modified to accept the new engines. The engine was designed to be a drop-in replacement.
>>28030240
>This is what Frogs seriously believe
>>28030356
Just concept shit. They're waiting for the actual necessary tech to develop.
>>28030371
>The older airframes can be modified to accept the new engines. The engine was designed to be a drop-in replacement.
The Soviets/Russians have no experience with this. The US does, which is why they NEVER do it. See the F-14 development saga.
>>28030371
The SU-30s are costing them more money in the long run than if they just bought French or US jets. India won't be buying Russian again precisely because of the SU-30s
>>28030371
Is a complete replacement of the intake ducts to actually be S-ducts 'drop in' too
Or can we stop talking bullshit and come to the conclusion that RAM won't help a fundamentally flawed airframe
>>28030393
No, those are official values.
>>28030371
>They quite like their Su-30MKI.
No. They have issues keeping availability above 66%. There were times in the last two years that it dipped below 50%. They are pissed about the fragility of the engines, the hassle of servicing and the prices the Russians are charging to refurbish and maintain the parts and engines they have to ship back. It's a complete shit show.
>>28030414
Cool source brah
>>28030415
You know what's the best? MKI is still so good by Russian standards that they are building them for their own air force as fast as they can.
>>28030409
Russians are still pretending that the current PAK-FA airframes aren't just heavily modified SU-35/27s.
>>28030435
Because the SU-35 and the AL-41 is such a failure.
How fast is fast for Russians? 10 airframes a year?
>>28030420
0.25 with 6 missiles. Just google it.
>>28030456
First result claims an RCS of 1m2 clean
Source your bullshit, or stop shilling
>>28030404
>citation needed
Russian 4th generation jets are the most cost-effective on the market right now.
>>28030409
No, new engines will be more efficient to maintain better thrust with lower airflow, which is the trade-off that is made when you block direct flow of air into the engines with stealthy designs. They can incorporate internal bumps within the air intakes to hide the turbines and use engine radar blockers over the engine blades.
Stop pretending that you NEED S-shape ducts to get a stealthy design. Newer American fighters might even ditch S-shape intakes altogether as there are other solutions.
>>28030415
Much better than the grounding issues of American jets.
IAF probably is just flying them too much and doesn't order enough spares.
>>28030489
Vatnik detected
Enjoy your 0.1m2 RCS
>b-but muh radar blockers
fucking kek
>>28030489
The Indian airforce is my source.
Stop Pretending the PAK-FA will ever go into mass production. As it is now, no one will buy it. Maybe by 2025 Russia might have a real 4.5 gen fighter capable of selling to the Indians.
>>28030489
>Much better than the grounding issues of American jets.
The only current USAF, USN or USMC fixed wing jet with an availability less than 78.4% is the brand spanking new, just IOC'd F-35B.
You have no clue what you're talking about. US fixed wing military aviation has led the world in readiness rates overall for the last 40 years.
>>28030509
Sorry. My bad. The worst number is 72.4%. The average readiness rate of the USAF is 77.8%.
>>28030489
Russian jets are known for their horrible reliability. What are you talking about? The SU-35s are basically permanently grounded and the SU-30s are sitting around 50 percent...
Why do you think the Indians use GE engines for their Tejas, yet they could use Russian engines? Russian engines are just horribly unreliable and a maintenance nightmare.
>>28030508
>The Indian airforce is my source.
They took the Russian Su-30 out to train with UK against the Typhoons and they were pleased with the results. Hence why they didn't order the Typhoons, they knew Su-30MKI was better plane.
They chose Rafales due to some ToT with aircraft electronics and because Russia only had MiG-35 to offer and MiG is notorious for bad service with their planes.
>>28030529
I am sure the Su-30MKI availability improved after problems were cited.
>>28030572
If you think the Indian government made a decision on what jet to buy based on an exercise with another country, you are out of your mind.
>>28030572
>I am sure the Su-30MKI availability improved after problems were cited.
It's still at or below 66% at any given time.
>They chose Rafales due to some ToT with aircraft electronics and because Russia only had MiG-35 to offer and MiG is notorious for bad service with their planes.
Considering the price they paid for those Rafales, why, exactly, did they not buy more Su-30MKIs if they're so good? Especially since no one in their right mind would argue that the Rafale is superior to the Eurofighter in A2A combat?
>>28030536
Only because Tejas is a single engine fighter, Russia makes and sells twin engined fighters.
Pic related will use a variant of the new Russian engine. Russia has no restrictions on engines and will offer better ToT so they can service it better.
India has always been firm Russian partner in defence because Russia always has offered no restrictions on use, unlike USA. USA is friends with Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, India will not trust you for such critical systems in the future unless they have to. Remember 70% of Indian Army is using imported equipment, and the vast majority of that is Russian.
>>28030572
>they knew Su-30MKI was better plane
Holy shit, this is beyond delusional.
Everybody, even Indians, said that Typhoons raped MKI's in those exercises. Completely crushed them at 1:1 duels.
The only remarkable thing about MKI was it's low speed agility. That is useless against a plane with better speed and climb like Typhoon.
>>28030616
Are you dense? We are talking about engines. Does Russia sell jet engines only by the pairs?
The reason India doesn't use Russian engines for the Tejas is because they are shit unreliable.
>>28030615
Su-30MKI is an A2A primary fighter.
They wanted A2G kebab removal tool, but still a fighter. Apparently they don't use dedicated bombers in IAF, I don't know why. Tu-160 would be perfect for them.
fuck f35 vtol gimmick loosing to f16 while being 100 times more expensive
>>28030616
It's mostly Russian, but they have been buying more gear from the west than Russia lately. India is a natural ally of the west, and it's been a long time coming that they realign.
Глyпыe aмepикaнцы
Too many idiot burgers on this site pretending that they know what they are talking about.
Wait December, PakFA deal will be signed. Then I come back and watch Amerifat meltdown and damage control.
>>28030690
Didn't you say that last december?
It's amazing how russians keep moving that date on the PAK-FA.
>>28030690
That chart shows full scale production beginning next year. They don't even have an engine yet. At least try, vatnik.
>>28028080
>Those countries also won't buy French.
But, they will. They did.
Why do you like on the web, anon?
Mirages and french equipment in general have armed air forces all over the world from South America to Africa, the ME, Asia and Oceania.
And they still do.
The Rafale will probably be a huge thing in the coming years when it matures and the price drops.
>>28030748
Those countries will most likely take Gripen instead. Like Brazil did.
>>28030748
Still don't think it will be as successful as the Mirage 2000 was.
I am predicting <350 exported outside of France. 126 in India, ~100 in ME, and rest from SA and AESAN.
>>28030774
The Gripen compared to a Rafale is like comparing a Super Tucano to an F-16.
Plus the Gripen comes with US parts too. It's a safer bet to assume that any country too poor for a modern fighter will opt for the Chinese JF-17.
>>28030748
>like
lie*
fffffff
>>28030801
Sounds like Russia is getting pushed out of the export market.
>>28030830
Eh not really, they have a fidelized set of nations that will stick to their stuff. If you got an airforce trained on MiG-29s you'd rather advance to MiG-35s.
The landscape is very diverse. All that I'm saying is, people will buy from France and the Rafale will be a reasonable choice for many nations, more than the Typhoon.
I think the real issue here is that nations will start phasing out the Typhoon earlier than accounted for and the project might die out everywhere but in UK.
>>28030801
Gripen is not that bad at all. It regularly beats F-16's and F-18's during exercises. TIDLS is also very, VERY good.
And it's going to have two way Meteor link from the start. Rafale will only have one way link until frogs upgrade it.
It's also very reliable and cheap to fly. Incredibly cheap to fly compared to anything else.
>>28030882
So, when India replaces it's MiG-29s with Rafales...... Who's still buying Russian gear?
>>28030882
Typhoon is a superior plane and it's not more expensive than Rafale. Soon it's getting CAPTOR-E and 3d vectoring too. And it keeps getting better at ground attack. Rafale won't even be able to use Meteors to their full potential.
Almost 4 times more Typhoons were made than Rafales. And for good reasons.
>>28030924
China and few tiny shitholes.
>>28030616
India couldn't make a decent AK-clone. How do you think an Indian stealth fighter would perform?
Everybody talks about specs, numbers and shit
But it's only about politics.
Keep it in mind, and stop these sterile debates.
>>28027759
>A jet with zero combat experience will force jets that have 10 years of proven combat capability and technology out of the market
>"No"
And then you realize more F-35's have been ordered than Rafales already.
>>28030489
>which is the trade-off that is made when you block direct flow of air into the engines with stealthy designs
other than that being untrue as the S bend acts an the same way a shock cone would, supersonic airflow is not meant to enter the engine directly
care to explain how "Bumps in the intake" would completely shield the blades from sight while not having the exact same feect as an S duct? , RAM is nice but cannot compensate for flawed design
>>28030208
So, they want to be stuck with far more expensive Frog parts and support instead?
>>28030259
You have a lot more confidence in the kleptocracy's economy than anyone else.
>>28030286
>RCS will be improved when more composites are used and RAM coating is applied.
You can't fix bad shaping. Or exposed turbine blades.
>>28030650
>Hey look guys I posted the memes am I cool now!?
>>28028080
They can't even manage to use toilets, what the fuck do they want a 5th gen fighter for?
