So what is the general consensus on this thing?
Too big, too unwieldy, too many protrusions.
>>28010629
Real consensus is that nobody knows jack about this plane. China's extremely secretive about its military and there's probably not going to be any military operation that will show off its performance. Everything is speculative.
stealth lite Strike Fighter for anti shipping missions.
>>28010629
>Consensus for a plane on its eighth prototype
Even the CIA probably doesn't know much about it yet. To me, it looks like a supersized F-22 with cards. That's about it.
>>28010629
The general consensus at this time is that we will know something in a decade. Right now they only have a few prototypes.
>tfw this is a ripoff of an American plane (blueprints stolen along with the f22 data), but they couldn't even keep the retractable canards
>>28010629
A cardboard copycat of the aborted fetus of MiG-1.44, the pinnacle of gook snitching skill.
>>28010898
This mi famiglia
>>28010629
Air hogs is really coming out with some cool designs. I'll probably get one of these as an x-mas present for my nephew if I can find it in stock.
>>28010629
If China finds two powerful engines it will be an extremly powerful multi-role deep striker.
From an aerospac engineering point the design is quite interesting. The general length to wingspan ratio indicates an aircraft for speed and range with weakpoints in the maneuverability and AoA, though the canard design should be able to address the weakpoints to provide the J-20 with fighter worthy stats in the maneuverability and AoA department.
Is the great aspect of aircraft design that a great aircraft design is the result of many compromises.
So I would expect that the fighter will be inferior than the F-22 and T-50 in the maneuverability department but should gain an adventage in retaining energy, in the tradition of a typical energy fighter, and it should be quite the supercruise monster which would make it hard for the F-35 to intercept it.
fake chunk of Chinese shit
>>28010629
It had stealth shape efficiency approaching the F-22. Don't expect it to dogfight as good as the F-22
>>28011438
Yes, but this assumes China actually has good engines to put into it. WS-10 is certainly an improvement (when they actually install it), but it still lags behind western engines.
>>28011486
Well, the turbofan version of the supposed WS-15 engine will enter production in 2016.
So there is a step in the right direction.
But looking that modern aircraft designs are in service for >50 years, so there is enough time to fix shortcomings. Right now it's more important that the basic design and concept is robust and future proof.
After all China will only get better if they try it.
>>28010867
This is bullshit.
>>28010898
>>28011438
These are correct, as far as I can tell. There are a few things you can speculate about but it is essentially a waiting game.
Absolute sex.
>>28012058
>>28012058
>>28012067
It's definitely the best looking 5th gen. Chinese make some ridiculously good looking shit.
>>28010629
Intern engines give it a T/W below 1.0.
Terrible internal capacity for its fuck huge size. (F-35 tier)
Thats it.
>>28010629
Handles terribly in Battlefield 4. 3/10 when compared to F-35
>>28010629
It didn't fly so good
Its to much gook copy pasta. its a fucking Mig 1.44-22-35-50-Euroshit
It doesn't look particularly stealthy. I wonder about that body though. What's the capacity of internal stores?
>>28012067
>>28012058
Latest one has some sort of raised canopy with gold tint.
also very sexy
>>28012293
I really liked the early black prototypes. But the silver-ish paint and the clipped fins of the later prototypes just beat them.
>>28012426
>inb4 canards
With PL-10, it will be at least better than the current F-22 in terms of SRAAM.
>>28012067
>>28012504
lolololololol
>>28010867
An astounding 0 numbers to go along with this.
>>28012381
>>28012426
Look at these Aerospace engineers, everybody. Aren't we glad to have /k/ graced by their presence? One of them can even determine RCS figures by looking at a picture.
![Chengdu-J-20-[2mm-Ferrite---4mm-CFC].mdb-08.00GHz-RsFromCoating-IncPol-TM-Pol-Theta-[E=090.0-A=180.0] RAM coating applied X-band.png](https://i.imgur.com/aIrfO2D.jpg "Chengdu-J-20-[2mm-Ferrite---4mm-CFC].mdb-08.00GHz-RsFromCoating-IncPol-TM-Pol-Theta-[E=090.0-A=180.0] RAM coating applied X-band.png")
>>28012713
Actually, optical RCS estimation is possible.
But the answer isnt one that they would like to hear:
Based on looks and computer model; the J-20 has very good frontal aspect stealth.
>>28012750
>Actually, optical RCS estimation is possible.
There is no way to verify its findings either dependently or interdependently, its literally pseudoscience.
We know the J-20 is going to be a long rang supercruise fighter.
What about their other stealth fighter in development? Is there a consensus on the J-31?
>The US will never fly a twin engine F-35
>>28013004
Apparently it is supposed to be export related.
>>28012953
1. CAD model of the jet
2. Apply the simplest common-knowledge RAM possible
3. Use software to simulate radar return strength from different angles and at different bands
4. ???
5. Profit
Actually, it is very doable. All stealth fighters have been designed with the help of computers, and have their RCS calculated with special software.
>>28014023
Thats not going to give you anything more than a pure guesstimation.
>>28012750
The back, not so much.
Looking at the picture above gave me the thought that in stealth the radar energy is deflected away from the original transmitter more than anything else. Would two datalinked tx/rxers both at 90 degrees from the target be able to get a solid lock? That kindve makes deep strike a more unlikely proposal.
>>28014090
The exact radar signatures and returns of stealth aircraft are probably something you dont want made public. Hence all we can do is make estimated guesses. While it is a guess, it is a very educated one and can be taken as an approximation.
>>28010898
/thread
>>28010629
Unfuck the engines and it might do OK.
>>28012953
>>28014090
>Hurr durr, anything that conflicts with my preconcieved notions of Chinese inferiority is psuedoscience
Fuck off, jingoist. It's the same "psuedoscience" they use to design the damn things.
>>28015270
Wasn't one of the guys involved in this estimation a well-known crackpot?
It falls behind the PAK-FA and the F-35 in terms of stealth, computer systems, and engines.
>>28012504
that's a fuck heug SRAAM
>>28015301
>It falls behind the PAK-FA in terms of stealth
Wew lad
>>28015383
This, the Russians don't have the same sort of material science development for the coatings as the Chinese do, also consider geometry, in which case the Pak Fa also falls behind. However Russian radar and some of the hard systems are a bit better than the Chinese. All in all though every country making 5th gen planes are taking their own approaches and thus we won't know for a decade or more how hey fair.
>>28015297
Kopp is a horrifically biased crackpot, yes. He's guilty of cherry-picking and misrepresenting results. He analyzed the F-35 similarly, but focused on the beam-axis mainlobe (the extremely prominent but narrow band of highest RCS laying along the frontal plane) to make the results look worse than they were. The J-20 has a similar band (see pic related), but he conveniently neglected to discuss it.
>>28015432
>the Russians don't have the same aptitude for espionage on American defense companies and reverse-engineering stolen stealth coatings as the Chinese
Fixed.
>>28015483
Don't blame the Chinese for doing what every nation does, blame the military contractors and DOD for having shit cyber security and security in general.
>>28015554
STOP VICTIM BLAMING, YOU SHITLORD
>>28010898
Stealth maritime strike fighter. 2 AShM. 2 active radar missiles. Large internal fuel tank.
Given china's positioning in the pacific, this is the role I see this beast getting.
>>28015554
If China had something worthwhile to steal we would.
>>28015698
It's not very stealthy.
>>28015710
Their hypersonic scram tech is pretty neat. That's the thing though, remember that in most of our life times China has gone from total third world shit hole, to the second largest economy (fuck you EU, you're don't real) and a young world power. They're just getting on their feet and within the next twenty years they'll have closed up the gap even further. They just need to get over the current hump they're facing of people leaving, along with the regional problems, once they get those figured out they'll probably have caught up in most fields to the US. It might be nice actually, to have a real competitor in military power like the old soviet union days.
>>28015742
From the analysis in >>28015439 it's on par with the F-35.
>>28015766
I wouldn't suggest total parity, but they're overall both similar.
5th gen planes are mostly about stealth.
6th gen planes will be all about EW.
>>28010629
Needs new engines then it'll be decent. The WS-15 is coming out in a few months, and they bought SU-35's probably to learn a little more on engine design.
We won't know for sure though until more tests or a conflict occurs.
It'll likely be meant to be a long range stealth strike fighter. To protect China's coasts from American ships, and to fuck with Japan.
F-22 with upgrades would still beat it, but China has done well.
>>28015869
Why not just go the F-35 route and make 6th gen about everything and every role even if it doesn't make sense?
>>28015869
>Implying stealth itself isn't a major asset in electronic warfare
>>28014125
Yeah but they don't seem to care about that. Nobody designing stealth fighters cares except Russia.
>>28015942
It isn't because of L-band. current stealth tech is highly visible on L-band.
before, you couldn't really use L-band to get a lock-on because of the huge amount of clutter it creates because of the sensitivity of this type of radar.
however, now that we have so much processing power, things have changed. you can pack a really powerful signal processor in a typical seeker warhead.
incidentally, this is why ruskies don't care too much about stealth.
>>28016059
more computing power does not overcome the physical limits of L-band
>>28015439
Doesn't that make sense, though? The F-35 operates at a much lower altitude than the fighters it is going to be pitted against. A naked spot on the roof matters for the F-35.
>>28016093
It mitigates them a bit.
>>28016093
Actually it does in a way because it gives you increased precision on longer distances. You can then use X-band on shorter distances.
Anyway, to expand on the previous post. The term "stealth", as it is commonly used, refers to passive protection systems. Term EW is reserved for active measures.
>>28016115
>The F-35 operates at a much lower altitude than the fighters it is going to be pitted against
stop reading ausairpower
>>28015755
This is the most delusional thing I've seen all day. China is the epitome of unsustainable. They're own officials don't trust their own growth numbers. Some even project their growth to be around a meager 3%. Thier plans for for economic sustainability are well... see this video
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mbEcQrifg3c
Trust me if your bets are on China, then you fucked up. I mean Ok so we're talking about a country who lets face it is going heading inexorably towards an apocalyptic collapse. The only future for communist China is either war and subsequent collapse, or just collapse. Either way the notion that that country will in anyway improve is pure delusion.
They have to deal with agricultural catastrophe, dystopian sci-fi levels of pollution, a violently fluxuating stock market, plummeting interest rates, growing civil unrest, terrorism, corruption, unchecked recourse consumption, an up coming population bomb due to the one child policy, massive unemployment for college grads.
THERE IS NO SINGLE COUNTRY ON THE FACE OF THIS EARTH AS FUBAR AS CHINA.
Micheal Savage put it best when he said "let me tell you a secret. They'll never beat us in the west, not because we're great, in fact we're idiots! But because they have time and time again proved to be more corrupt and more incompetent than we are."
Anyone have recent info on the plane?
We have our resident Chinese military informant, and honestly, he usually provides good info. Some people just shit up his threads because there is another Chink who makes literal bait threads.
Last I heard, the 9 prototype just got produced. It had a few design changes around the engine. But that's what he said a month ago.
>>28016177
>They have to deal with agricultural catastrophe, dystopian sci-fi levels of pollution, a violently fluxuating stock market, plummeting interest rates, growing civil unrest, terrorism, corruption, unchecked recourse consumption, an up coming population bomb due to the one child policy, massive unemployment for college grads.
Except for the one child policy, almost every post-industrialized nation in the world overcame all of that. Usually without the government collapsing into violence.
>>28016177
?
Posts like these remind me I'm on 4chan.
>>28016137
>Actually it does in a way because it gives you increased precision on longer distances.
The computer can only work with what the L-band feeds it.
Running the pictures you took on your smartphone through a supercomputer will not make your smartphone capable of telephotography.
>>28016115
>Doesn't that make sense, though?
Comparing the frontal RCS of one jet to the lateral RCS of another? No, not at all.
>The F-35 operates at a much lower altitude than the fighters it is going to be pitted against.
Than the J-20? No. And in many respects stealth actually permits the F-35 to operate higher than legacy aircraft (i.e. Flanker variants) in high-threat environments.
Plus, beam-axis RCS (particularly in the top hemisphere) matters far less than frontal-axis RCS, due to the radar notch effect of look-down doppler radar.
>>28016229
>Running the pictures you took on your smartphone through a supercomputer will not make your smartphone capable of telephotography.
That's a horrible analogy and it's misleading.
A better one would be: taking hundreds of pictures with a shitty camera and re-assembling them into a really good/clear picture.
We can do this today, btw. There are even cameras that work this way.
>>28010867
Too big, too heavy, too thick and too rough. Indeed, it is a clod of scrap metal.
>>28010920
>>28012058
>>28012067
>>28012453
>>28012584
>>28012750
Its a missile truck which has no chance in a dogfight.
>not that its supposed to ever be in a dogfight
>>28013004
>J-31
The aerospace equivalent of one of these
>>28016248
>A better one would be: taking hundreds of pictures with a shitty camera and re-assembling them into a really good/clear picture.
Merging a thousand copies of the same low quality image will not give you a high quality image.
>>28016400
Heh, they're not identical. And you're wrong. Like I said, there are cameras out there that take pictures with several shitty/cheap cell phone sensors and reassemble them into DSLR quality pictures.
It's the same analogy. Take a lot of snapshots/radar views which have horrible SNR and sue DSP to make something that looks OK. That's how new chinese and russian L-band radars work.
>>28016201
Read a book. If you were more educated on the issue you'd probably be able to keep up better. Tell me what confuses you and I'll elaborate.
>>28016197
No, no first world capitalist nation has ever come close to facing the sheer apocalyptic extremes that China is facing today. None of the issues which plauge China have shown any sign of improving. Furthermore we're dealing with what is essentially a subsidized command economy. Dependent on the government for their livelihood is a whopping 100% of the Chinese population. The success of the Chinese economy is dependent on whether the CCP can manage the transition from command to free market properly and the CCP doesn't even seem to realize that the best of both worlds fantasy they thought they could have is a lie. Just look at the heavy handed stock market intervention this summer. You're looking at this thing with rose colored glasses if you think the China of today is anything but doomed unless there is a massive government and structural overhaul, which would have to be managed to nigh perfection. This solution of course went out of the window with the recent turn of the CCP into one of the most hardline regimes if not the modt hardline regimes in Asia.
Pardon any grammatical or spelling errors im using my phone.
>>28015710
More like the US doesn't want people to know that they steal from China. Face it faggot, everyone looks at other countrie's shit. You DO NOT stay ahead of the curve without stealing.
>>28016177
>communist China
Jesus Christ.
>>28016390
One of these?
>>28016450
Umm. Can you give me a coherent argument that has something to do with the J-20 or weapons in general?
>>28016493
They are communist anyone who says otherwise is an ass. They practice a weird form of pseudo capitalism but pricipally they are informed by communist ideology when it comes to property, governance, and government's role in the economy.
>>28016450
>No, no first world capitalist nation has ever come close to facing the sheer apocalyptic extremes that China is facing today
Yes they have. Maybe you should go read one of those book things you mentioned. China isn't special, lots of countries go through this shit. Lots of European countries had it just as bad. Pollution, runaway corporate abuse, lack of regulation in banking, socioeconomic hardship resulting in unrest (usually with new ideologies surfacing), population imbalance (caused by medicine producing more retirees, not a one-child policy), so on and so on.
Did you know the original reason America enacted health standards in food was because Americans found out that meat packing companies were using the cow's shit in the sausage as filler? It was making whole regions sick and people didn't know why. Bizarre stories like that are the kind China is going through right now.
No man, you are just fucking wrong. China going through tranformative process doesn't mean it is just going to fall over and die all by itself. Yeah the future could mean a lot of bad things. It's not going to just collapse in on itself like you're imagining.
>>28016552
It's called state capitalism you retard. There is nothing pseudo about it and it's a legitimate economic sytem.
>>28016667
Yeah, this.
Pseudo-capitalism? lol what the fuck. China's system of making strategically important industries state-owned while letting everyone else more or less do their thing unregulated is actually what China has always done.
Communist China overthrew the old system and eventually just went back to the old system after Mao died. They are just practicing it in a modern context.
>>28016450
>China will soon collapse
There's the maymay again.
>>28016546
Ok. Those factors considered China will not be able to "close the gap" with the U.S. technologically, it's youth and their families are more likely to travel elsewhere away from unemployment and an oppressive regime. This goes double for those involved in STEM fields where there is no shortage a roles for them to fill in the service driven economies of NATO countries. The fact is that as time goes on we won't see a more powerful China, we'll see a more desperate China. I can honestly see them cranking more "5th gen" fighters but at a massive detriment to themselves. They are likely to indeed drastically increase military spending but the idea that it will be because they are a rising power is absurd. No it will be because the Chinese gov, the CCP is desperate and paranoid believeing that powerful military is the only way to ensure regional hemogeny. Of course this won't mean that they'll have to use the stuff at sometime. However if they do they'll be using it on a country with capabilities that exceed it's own, and that is undoubtedly going to be much healthier and more stable. The J-20 is a symptom of that desperation, the Chinese aren't getting better, they're in overdrive now, not just getting off of thier feet. It's make or break and the J-20 won't be enough.
>>28016429
>That's how new chinese and russian L-band radars work.
Except its not, as what you are trying to describe is not what happens.
>>28016533
>I don't know what vortices are
>>28016667
>>28016700
It's more than keeping "essential industries" state run. Also don't call it a "legitimate system" ok, Nazism is a "legitimate ideology" that doesn't make it good and if I call it pseudo-socialism in a racial supremacist context instead of national socialism I'm not wrong. Back to my point, the Chinese gov has its tenticles in everything and actively subsides and protects it's industries to the point of being a major investor. There are volumes written as we speak, complaining about this combination of subsidizing and protectionism.
>>28016713
You sure have an imaginative grasp on the speculative anon.
>>28016720
Sure it does. You obviously know fuck-all about DSP.
>>28016761
That's not vortices.... That's what happens when you use afterburners at certain levels in the atmosphere...
The J-31 picture is the exact same "smoke" as this picture of the F-22.
That's why I posted it. Meme /k/ posters don't get that all afterburning engines produce some smoke at the initial max acceleration point.
>>28016777
Oh god, godwin's law. Here we go.
I invite you to actually research how other countries industrialized. Most educational systems around the world glaze over it, but as a matter of fact the industrial era was one of the worst times to live, despite how good things turned out. China has problems and is willing to accept those problems in exchange for the benefits that the past 200 years has shown will come.
Yes China's one party system has caused problems, but it's not entirely clear other systems would be doing much, if any better. Every government fucks up its economic system in some respects and has to fix them later, and no country industrialized perfectly. This isn't some monolithic system that a Cracked video can describe, you're watching a unique version of a complex process that is supposed to happen.
>>28016777
You sound like a southern grandpa on yahoo comments.
China's economy is 11 trillion dollars of nominal value, and it has grown 10% average since 1978.
Say what you want, but a shitty economic system doesn't produce those results.
Notice the commodity market recently? Oil? Iron? That's what happens when China goes from 10% growth to 6%.
China's economic effect on the world is even bigger than their stated economy's size, because they purchase way more than they are worth in dollar terms.
>>28016878
The amount of 'smoke' in your picture, and the amount of smoke the J-31 put out in that air show are not comparable.
Which is why there is a meme, despite your damage control.
>>28016177
>They have to deal with agricultural catastrophe
thats just as bad for everyone else as it would be for them, and still not as bad as africa or india
>dystopian sci-fi levels of pollution
every industrializing nation does this, look at london in teh 50s, it was smoggy as fuck
>a violently fluxuating stock market
and europe and the USA's stock markets are stable?
>plummeting interest rates
interest has been near zero in a plethora of developed countries but you dont see them going to shit
>growing civil unrest
oh hey you got one right, well done
>terrorism
hahahahahahahahaha, not compared to europe mate
>corruption
is a big problem but also inevitable in developing countries
>unchecked recourse consumption
this is a long term problem and wont factor in if china collapses int eh time frame you're considering
>an up coming population bomb due to the one child policy
aging population will be a problem, but old people dont tend to revolt, the regime will survive this
>massive unemployment for college grads
again, not compared to teh usa or europe
>THERE IS NO SINGLE COUNTRY ON THE FACE OF THIS EARTH AS FUBAR AS CHINA.
>somalia
>iraq
>syria
>libya
>dem.rep.congo
>yemen
>central asia
hell even mexico is in a worse state, and has worse prospects than china
>>28010629
Impressive
The plane shows superb aerodynamics to the point that other planes are not on its level. The small wings in front gives it versatility and stealth in a balanced manner. The engine is truly one of the best and there is two of them, so two of the best.
Clearly this just shows how advanced China is, it won't be long until everyone will acknowledge Chinese superiority and intellect.
>>28016861
Apparently you do not either.
>>28016777
What in the fuck? So this is clearly a moral related thing.
The US is doing the exact same thing. Interventionism and state capitalism are completely fine.
And if we're going to talk about strawman moral shit arguments.
I'm not pro government at all but there is a certain level of protection, for the population, from private investment that is required.
Yes, you are wrong when saying it's pseudo. There is no pseudo capitalism here.
Private owners exist and protecting not just your national interests, but also citizens from both private and foreign interests, is precisely what the government has to do.
Now, China has problems and is certainly not the ideal country of your dreams but this stale "Communist China" meme has to die. Unless you want to start calling most "relevant" countries communist.
>The People's Republic of America
>>28016595
I agree with what you're saying in theory but there's an issue of scale that can't be ignored when discussing China's growing pains; there's 1.35 BILLION of them. Any country facing this kind of stuff in the past had several orders of magnitude fewer people to worry about.
>>28016848
Truely the confidence in China inspite of all that is going on suprises me. Nor is anything I'm saying pure speculation, there are real statistics and evidence backing up my claims though I understand if you want sources for the less obvious things than the pollution and false GDP reporting. There are real statistics done on things like the population bomb, and youth unemployment, as well as the brain drain. I'll tell you one thing, has anyone been able to point to a single sign that that country is improving.
>>28016595
I think one of the problems China faces is that the issues its grappling with are occurring in a highly globalized world. Most Western countries dealt with these issues when markets were highly divided and the costs of necessary investments and improvements were ameliorated by less options being available for consumers. With the current system the cost of reform has to be eaten by the companies themselves as cheaper alternatives are available. China's already being edged out of light manufacturing due to rising wages, the expense of reforms would only exacerbate that; China has to wait until domestic demand equals our outpaces loss of foreign demand otherwise they'll be looking at a contraction of their economy.
The idea that China has this massive pollution problem is kinda ludicrous considering the timeline of their industrial development. First-gen pollution mandates are around fifty years old in the USA, it couldn't have been that expensive for China to use antiquated pollution control and scrubbing systems. They didn't even mandate catalytic converters in cars until late 90s.
>>28016889
That's where I think you're wrong. My goal here isn't to fall back some unfalsifiable social "law" (a law in sociology?). It's to point out the uniqueness of China's situation and how the China we know today is unlikely to exist in the future. By this I'm implying that it will be radically different I should add. I believe that China's situation is unique because of it's government, because of it's controlled economy. Understand that what happened in countries like America was a largely a part of a free economy. In China's state run economy there is a need for more constant management due to its artificial nature. China is in essence building a jenga tower with its economy from my analysis. The government has to ensure that the transition from a developing economy to a service economy is possible instead of this process happening on its own. This lack of a plan for this is why the Cracked video is so relavent. We've seen China's stumble already with the recent stock market crisis. What worries me is not the fact that you guys disagree, it is that no one is willing to recognize the that China's position is both insanely and extraordinarily precarious. Even if you disagree that its doomed.
>>28016923
One is from the side and the other is from below. Hence your comparison is shit as well.
If you knew how afterburners work and interact with athmosphere, you would know it's a meme for a reason.
>>28016777
>Chinese gov has its tenticles in everything and actively subsides and protects it's industries to the point of being a major investor. There are volumes written as we speak, complaining about this combination of subsidizing and protectionism.
Erm, we literally do exact same thing here. Boeing is known as the USA's protected species for a reason
>>28015755
>muh economy
Meanwhile, 95% of the population is literally still rice farming peasant tier
>>28016955
The confidence has multiple reputable sources.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-REB-34298
>Recent Chinese economic data is stoking fear the world’s second largest economy is decelerating at pace that could pull the global economy into a recession.
>But the International Monetary Fund’s top Asia economist, Changyong Rhee, says such pessimism may be unwarranted. A booming services sector—such as shipping and retail—is offsetting the collapse in manufacturing, he argues.
>“We don’t think there’s enough evidence based on the manufacturing sector that there will be a hard landing,” Mr. Rhee said in an interview. “They definitely have a manufacturing slowdown, an overcapacity problem. But other parts of China are actually growing faster.”
He's Korean before you yell shill.
Also.
http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21667927-chinas-consumption-boom-not-enough-succour-world-economy-doughty-not
>Overall, China’s retail sales have increased by 10.5% in real terms this year, well ahead of economic growth (officially 7% but closer to 6% according to many analysts). There are, as ever, doubts about the reliability of China’s data, though in this case it may be that the retail figures are too low. Nicholas Lardy, an expert on Chinese statistics at the Peterson Institute for International Economics, a think-tank, notes that retail numbers do not include services, a glaring omission since surveys show that services account for as much as two-fifths of China’s consumer spending.
>All this suggests that consumption is picking up at least some of the slack from the industrial downturn. The main reason for the resilience of the Chinese shopper is steady income growth. Wages for migrant workers rose by 10% in the second quarter compared with a year earlier, faster than the national average of 7%. Since low-income earners tend to spend more of their pay than the rich, that has given consumption an extra boost.
>>28017177
I'm done responding to you.
>>28016951
My point isn't that state capitalism doesn't exist, it's that its the root of a lot of China's problems, actually, I'm starting to doubt "state-capitalism" is anything but CCP newspeak, but I digress. My point was that China's market and government are severely conjoined. To the point this isn't mere cronyism like in the west but major "free market" companies acting as vessels of Chinese Communist Party. Anyway that's the last I'll say, clearly this is an unpopular opinion in this thread. Only time can really tell so I suppose we'll leave it at that. I was in a similar argument with a friend once before, I told him that the Chinese stock market was going to face a major collapse, he disagreed and lo and behold. I'm hoping for the worst if it means I'm right.
>>28017180
I wouldn't yell shil, I read the WSJ and I see, that and go, I don't think a state-capitalist country can successfully transition into a service economy. Point blank. Time will tell, I expect them to have a major down turn that will truely test the integrity of the country. You disagree leave at that.
>>28017190
Wasn't me. Just some other guy. Don't tell me you were hoping it was though.
>>28017221
Anyone with half a brain cell knew a stock market that went up 400% and had a 70 PE was going to crash.
Here's the story:
In Jan 2014 the Chinese government said "hey we finally freed up the stock market so if you have over $5,000 dollars you can invest."
Of course the 80 million Chinese seniors who had built up time and money immediately jumped into what was destined to be a guaranteed gain market. So they took big margin loans and the market went up 250% in 2014.
Then in early 2015 Chinese regulators started telling people to stop margin lending. This caused people to stop using official sources and instead resort to shadow banking margin lending.
By June 2015 the stock market was up 400% since Jan 2014, margin lending was in the hundreds of billions, and so the regulator on June 6th banned all new margin lending.
And so the bubble burst.
The market is still up 280% since Jan 2014, but it needs to fall more.
Classic bubble.
>>28017249
Your view has a few great proponents. The perpetual China bears.
And they likely will be right, one day.
But they've been wrong 35 years and counting.
Hence the lack of confidence in claims on 4chan from a guy who gets some blatantly obvious facts wrong.
Like
>>28016177
>communist China
Sorry bro but they ended that failure before Mao even died.
>>28017296
Why is everyone so hinged on that. Ok I called them communist they are still run by the CCP. It was a choice of language that had nothing to do with their economy. Get over it. You can't use that as a reason to be dismissive that's how you ruin a discourse not have one imo. We don't have aspergers I'm assuming so let's not act like it.
>>28011447
This coupled with the sheer skill of US pilots. I've been going to air shows since I was a kid and my fucking god the balls on these pilots. I actually saw an f22 demo flight in September and was tactically shitting myself for 20 minutes.
It's not American so /k/ will say its dog shit that would struggle to shoot down WW1 biplanes.
>>28017296
Also that 35 years bit is patantly false I'm talking about the collapse/removal of the CCP amidst upheaval amongst massive economic, societal, and environmental damage that can be directly attributed to the policies of the CCP.
>>28017342
That's experience, you tend to know what you're doing when your country gives a shit about the airforce and you get lots of flying hours. And not just in practice.
>>28012711
>inverse square law
>>28016236
>Than the J-20? No.
Yes. F-35 is supposed to operate at subsonic speeds J-20 at supersonic. Ceiling is higher for supersonic speeds.
>>28017296
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-19/china-has-a-1-2-trillion-ponzi-finance-problem-as-debt-piles-up
45% of new debt to pay interest on existing debt. That's not going to well. China got fat on investments which made 2-4x returns on investments in years. So everyone spent like that was guaranteed. Now thats evaporating and no one can pay off their short term debt. This IS going to explode. Just about every Asian country which has followed this kind of mercantile economic plan has had a recession after a period of growth. China isn't some special snowflake-the same will happen with China. But what that will mean for the CCP is another matter. Given that the CCP's very survival depends on the economy getting better, they'll most likely drag this out in a way which will be the most destructive.
>>28020489
>hurr china wirr corrapse
So they might have some riots, and change of government, not the end of the world.
This declining population growth in the west is a disaster, and will eventually destroy us.
>>28016189
The bait threads are prob by a (maybe some) westeners. I know cause I bait both ways sometimes and I'm white as all fuck canadian
>>28020489
this forecast has been repeated so many times that it's retarded to think that china has no contingency planned for it
hopefully any leader looking to compete with china is going the proactive route instead of just depending on this "collapse"
At least china has more or less homogeneous ethnicity going for it. And if two of the minorities get uppity, they don't care about being labeled racist in curb stomping them.
In this way, I would bet china has a better future than europe.
America has the geographic advantage in tat we can secure our southern boarder and have 2 oceans to keep the mongs out.
>>28017342
>I will ignore that /k/ constantly shits on American equipment.
>>28022036
But the difference is they shit on Chinese equipment without exception, while American equipment generally has as many supporters as detractors.
>>28010629
Probably one of those things that China can talk about doing for so long, make a couple of them, and then "in production slated for 20XX" the rest of them.
>like their aircraft carriers
>like their guided missle destroyers
>like their stealth bombers
Most of their shit is all talk. Until it hits domestic mass production and is rolled out in numbers that matter, it's just military posturing and propaganda.
>>28022052
>But the difference is they shit on Chinese equipment without exception,
Because 9 times out of 10 a thread on Chinese equipment has the OP shilling so hard it would make the most devout slavboo blush.
>>28022093
2 of those are either in serial production or being built as we speak
