Hi /k/,
I live in Paris. I don't want to stay inactive after the attacks of last week. I know how to shoot, but as you know it is illegal in France to carry a gun. I could buy one though, I know how to shoot. I would cost me an arm but anyways.
I am more interested in being able to deal with a wound caused by a bullet. Just in case Jawad&bro want to go on rampage again.
If you have any tips, books, video, experience to share, that will be much appreciated.
Avec mes salutations les meilleures,
Frog
>>27947295
google banned in frogistan?
>>27947305
I'd like to have something better than the average, so I guess asking /k/ was the best way
>>27947295
>Jawad & co
Do I really have to deal with Jawad even on /k/?
>>27947295
Cover chest wounds with occlusive dressing(dressing which doesn't allow air to pass, could be just plastic taped down)
Other penetrating wounds pack with kerlix gauze and pressure dressing
If bleeding does not stop with direct pressure apply tourniquet as high on the limb as possible and tighten until bright red bleeding stops
>>27947325
>>27947336
Should get you covered for the usual Jawadist attack.
Tourniquets and gauze.
Plug the hole with gauze. Stuff and apply pressure until bleeding stops. Be advised, it's going to hurt the victim worse than being shot, and they will probably attack you.
If this method does not work, apply tourniquet roughly 2" above the wound towards the center of the body, or if trauma from the wound is greater than 2" adjust accordingly. Tighten with the windlass until bleeding stops. For arterial bleeding it's not uncommon for tourniquets to cause massive soft tissue damage in order to stop bleeding.
>>27947325
thanks, I'll go through it.
>>27947332
thanks for the advice. Can kerlix gauze be replaced by a piece of clothe?
>>27947314
That was your first mistake.
You better off with webMD desu
>>27947336
>>27947343
>>27947359
thanks! Can gauze be replaced by a piece of clothe? I'll remember your remark on tourniquets.
>>27947360
Ehh, it can be replaced in theory, the objective of packing the wound channel is to stop bleeding from deeper vessels that would not be tamponaded by direct pressure on with a regular bandage.
I would stick to cotton, not sure how synthetics complicate this process, putting other cloth that has not been sterilized in a wound can possibly lead to infection. However, infection can be treated at the hospital. If you carry a backpack and are concerned about this type of thing, take a first aid class and throw a few packs of vacuum packed gauze in your backpack.
I also forgot to say one of the most important parts of treating a penetrating chest injury, CHECK FOR AN EXIT WOUND. It is very possible to get caught up on the obvious injury on the front and miss a larger wound on the rear
>>27947410
It'll work in a pinch but it's not sterile and it's not nearly as absorbent. Of course, infection control kinda flies out the window when a person has the very real potential to bleed out in front of you.
>>27947425
ok I get the point. thank you very much. I have already taken a first aid class and will have a refreshing session in 3 weeks, but it's really low level unfortunately.
I'll remember the exit wound, thanks!
>>27947439
ok I get the point, thank you for your time!
Any other questions? Paramedic sitting around the fire station without a whole lot to do at the moment, also former infantryman with a bit of tactical combat casualty care experience.
>>27947467
Also, read up on sucking chest wounds. These are simple to diagnose and treat if you understand them, however if you're ignorant it will send your brain into shock trying to figure out why the victim is dying if there's no bleeding
>>27947295
The "for dummies" approach is broken up into three basic things:
>1. Limbs.
Use a tourniquet. Old methods said to put it ~2 inches above the wound, modern modern teachings says just put the TQ high on the limb and start tightening. The newer placement is less likely to slip and more likely to stop the major artery from bleeding out. While applying you may want to jam your knee into their shoulder/hip (depending on the limb), which temporarily slows the blood flow while you're applying. This is going to cause a lot of pain, but worth it.
TQs should be 1/5 to about 2 inches wide. Anything thinner (like 550 cord or other bullshit you hear on "survival" websites) is going to crush/sever the veins, which is bad.
You can use premade TQs, which are best, or you can improvise. A cloth, wrapped around the limb can be the TQ, and then you just need anything rigid ("stick or something") to use as a windlass to tighten and then tie down. If you give somebody a TQ, and the TQ isn't working, don't remove it, just apply another TQ higher up on the body.
Take a first aid course...
Call 911 or whatever it is your emergency dispatch line is...
Be the best reporting party you can be, providing informaton in a cool and collected way...
Leave it to the pros.
Remember 4chan is not to be taken seriously and half the shit you will read on here is either a joke, written by a keyboard warrior or copy/pasted from an unreliable source.
>>27947512
>2. "Transition areas".
Basically, you crotch/hip and shoulder regions where neither a TQ or an occlusive dressing will do much go. As the other poster said- gauze. Or if you're totally fucked, something like gauze even a fucking shirt may do. You finger bang it in their good (again massively preferred you have nitrile gloves on, so if you're making a kit, add gloves) and then put a pressure dressing on top.
>>27947522
Gotta love old style baggy pants
>>27947501
ok, thanks for the heads up. I'll dig into it.
>>27947500
Hi, thank you very much! so about sucking chest wounds, I understand there's a need for chest decompression, thanks to a large needle. Can I use a knife instead of a needle? I carry a folding knife, the blade is 6-8 cm long.
Also could you share an experience that taught ou something that isn't in the litterature?
>>27947530
>3. Torso
Occlusive dressings. Basically slap some plastic over it and totally cover it (some people are taught to improvise valves, but those don't work so great, so fuck it). With a bullet or frag wound, make sure to check for and treat for an entry and exit wound. No good to seal up just one.
***
Biggest thing is to simultaneously be having somebody call or direct real medical professionals to wounded, and then to step off when the arrive and let professionals do their thing. First aid may very much save somebody in the short term until dedicated first responders arrive, but the priority for somebody is just to stabilize enough for first responders to pick it up.
I'd personally look at taking a class, as text knowledge is good, but it only goes so far, and isn't the same as hands-on training with a physical instructor.
>>27947567
>Can I use a knife instead of a needle?
I would not advise stabbing somebody to make them better no.
>>27947325
Ah written by someone who clearly knows fuck all
>no face shield in wallet kit for resuscitation without catching aids
Stopped reading there
Go on a first aid course then assemble a kit of things that you actually fucking know how to use.
Oh and fyi if you do manage to treat a severe wound with this shit, youre going to get conpartment syndrome/wound infection and die a more painful death than one from blood loss.
>>27947560
These are not really all that baggy, they are 5.11 tacticals, I'd say inbetween my nomex slacks and the jumpsuit.
>>27947522
I did take a first aid course, but it was low level. I learnt how to report correctly, that's pretty much it. We weren't even taught how to make a bandage...
Well I'll double check what I read with friends of mine who are students in medecine (PhD student in physical chemistry here), but that's just how far I can go. If you have reliable suggestions, feel free to share them ;)
>>27947567
I'm going to be honest with you, Don't bother attempting chest decompression with inadequate supplies or training. Using a knife is a bad idea, mad max is not reality
As far as experiences, one of the things that sticks out is making sure you have the equipment you need when you need it
>>27947295
I'd get a tourniquet, some Israeli bandages, compression gauze, chest seals, and either celox or quick clot.
Use the compression gauze and Israeli bandage to apply direct pressure over the wound, after you try elevation, of course.
If that doesn't work, use a tourniquet. High up on the injured limb, and DON'T TAKE IT OFF. Let a medical professional do that.
For bleeding that won't stop with direct pressure, that you can't get a tourniquet to (armpit, etc.) Use the celox or quick clot. It will fucking hurt, but it works.
The chest seals are to prevent sucking chest wounds. Make sure all of the edges are secured to the skin, so that it actually works. Plastic sheeting and duct tape also works, in a pinch. As long as you have an airtight seal, you'll be fine. Well, not fine, but less dead.
Check for exit wounds. Lots of people forget about those.
Lastly, don't go on eBay or Amazon and buy a premade kit. From what I've heard, most ate overpriced and missing half their shit.
Buy the parts individually, and go for good brand names like North American Rescue, kerlix, etc.
>>27947600
Look at abc approach to treating a casualty, its a decent way for normal people to help with a situation
Basically
>primary survey
>open aiway
>is casualty breathe?
>yes: maintain airway, move onto next
>no: 2 rescue breaths, 30 chest compressions, repeat until emt arrive or you tire and they die
>if airway is maintained look for major wounds and act to prevent blood loss
>begin secondary, head to toe survey for more minor wounds if everything in your primary survey is good
>>27947586
Nice keyboard warrior work.
I didn't read the long winded probably copy paste of bullshit screen shot... but...
Who the fuck does mouth to mouth/rescue breathing.
You do realize we have antibiotics. You do realize we have surgeons that can relieve pressure from compartment syndrome.
>>27947647
>quick clot
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>27947647
Let me clarify, for the chest wound, an airtight seal on the EXIT/BACK wound, not the front.
Front has to be able to let air out, but not in.
>>27947655
Youre a fucking dumbass with little knowledge of human physiology if you think that chest compressions alone will save someone who isnt breathing/hasnt drawn breath for a long time.
Unless you make a habit of carrying a bvm around that is.
>>27947295
As an unarmed civilian in a terrorist attack (shooting or bombing) you want to first escape the danger area and aid others in escaping. If the immediate threat has passed you will most likely be faced with injuries that need the bleeding controlled first to prevent loss of life before first responders (police and EMT) arrive.
Learn to know when and how to apply a tourniquet properly. There are various types you can buy such as a Combat Application Tourniquet (CAT) or the SOG Tactical Tourniquet (SOFTT) and they can cost anywhere from $15 to $30 USD. (http://www.chinookmed.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=s-tourniquets)
Learn to know when and how to apply a pressure dressing properly. You can usually buy the ubiquitous Israeli Emergency Bandage for about $7 USD. There are a lot of videos showing on youtube showing how to use these as well as videos from various manufacturers showing how to use them. If need be it can also be utilized as a tourniquet but you need to practice this. (http://www.chinookmed.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=s-bandages_dressings)
Learn to recognize the symptoms of shock and what to do if someone is going into shock. If need be make yourself a small reference card for what these signs are, laminate it and put it in your wallet/carry it with you just in case you forget something under the stress of the moment.
Remeber: YOU only need to control the bleeding on the casualty and keep them from going into shock -- let the first responders worry about everything else.
>>27947684
Improvised flutter valves don't really work and generally compromise the seal doing more harm than good.
According to TCCC and PADI you're supposed to stick on an airtight seal on both sides. The exception is using something like a premade seal like an Asherman that has a purpose-built valve. If there is chest tension, that's what a decompression needle is for. For somebody untrained or without a needle, that translates into just putting on a full seal and then getting real medics to the wounded before chest pressure becomes an issue.
>>27947644
roger that. I guess identifying the sucking wound and letting pros do the job is the best option then.
>>27947647
>>27947684
Thanks!
>>27947649
thanks. I actually know these steps, I was more interested in being able to stop someone from bleeding
>>27947712
A few things.
The AHA guidelines prove the importance of compressions over airway. There is now current studies into passive airway resuscitation with both high flow and room air, both are promising. The process of cardio and pulmonary resuscitation is ever changing and any one claiming to know something as fact from God is obviously not well educated on the topic.
If you have ever managed an airway you know how difficult it can be when it is your only job and your crew is handling everything else, let alone potentially running a scene as a bystander by yourself. There is no need to do so at the bystander/lay person level.
You also assume this is my problem and I need to provide professional services when I am off duty and in public. It's not my problem, I don't carry a kit around, I carry a phone with 911 on speed dial.
>>27947741
hi, thanks! making a reference card is a very good idea actually. I'll dig inot the shock and how to prevent people from going into.
>>27947712
Forgot to add my picture. Please tell me more about how you are an airway expert. I have only managed 2 airways this last week. A CPR in progress and a medical RSI with paralytics. I would love to hear about your credentials and have you provide insightful peer reviewed documentation or personal experience that is verifiable.
>>27947849
How are you liking the glide scope, I got to play with a king vision the other day and it was great
Yeaaaaaaaaaaahhhh............
.30 caliber bullets at point blank range are prettymuch unfixable. That being said, get some quikclot and a tactical tourniquet
>Both the link and the webum are NSFW. Pls no ban
http://liveleak.com/view?i=885_1420607869&comments=1
ok guys I have enough food for thought. Thanks again, it is much appreciated! take care
>>27947332
New guidance is if its bright red spirting blood go right to tourniquet. Put it as close to the body as possible (forget the 2in BS, thats for sterile surgery rooms, saving a limb does no good if the guy dies)
Also with sucking chest wounds, the new guidance is to cover all sides. The logic being in first aid you are not gonna get a good seal anyway so just seal as much as you can.
Speaking of chest wounds:
After you seal it all off with plastic keep an eye on the throat. If it moves off the center line re-check your seals. Assuming you dont have a needle to do chest decompression you have to "burp the wound." Basically you pull off the plastic and stick your finger in the hole and it makes a burp sound. Blood will also come out. Check the trachia if it goes back to center you are good. If it doesnt you need a needle....
>>27947849
That may be true but i am from the Internet and therefor jesus.
Can you heal incurable diseases, faggot?
>>27947936
Great comeback assuming you are the same person.
>so tough
>so strong
So mad.
http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=c47_1423000884
Rifles don't always leave pretty wounds
>all these people recommending gauze
>not quickclot
OP, look up "Ventilated Operator Kit" or V.O.K.
It's basically a blowout kit with a few key things in it you can fit in your pocket. Quickclot, tourniquet, sucking chest wound seal, sterile gloves, a razor sharp cutting instrument to remove clothes, or preform an impromptu incision.
Also, take a basic EMT course. Learn to apply basic first aid properly. Doing it improperly can do more harm than good.
>>27947968
The Quickclot powder has the problem that it can form a large scab over over wound while not actually stopping the bleeding. The top scabby layer hides the exact source of the bleeding and it makes it harder for EMS to dig out and do an in-depth job.
Gauze applied properly is very effective and doesn't interfere nearly as much with followup aid.
>>27947952
I am all of those things
>>27947880
It's ok. Between manual blades, video laryngoscope, king and combi as well as a commercial surgical kit and a scalpel we can get the job done.
We started using the glide as a backup, our program director has changed it to our primary so we get more experience with it. We average 10-30 tubes a year so it's nice to vary it up.
>>27947988
EMS is not going to dig anything out. I don't care how the bleeding was stopped before I get there, if it's stopped I am not touching it, the ER is not touching it, the only person touching it is going to be trauma surgeon and team.
>>27947988
Quickclot powder hasnt been sold in years. Its now a big absorbent gauze pad infused with the clotting compound.
>>27947295
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0763786594?keywords=68W&qid=1448129825&ref_=sr_1_1&s=books&sr=1-1
Buy that book or similar(as english is not your first language it may be a bit difficult, IDK)
Read thoroughly, take notes
Take a medical course such as FPOS-I (First Person On Scene - Intermediate), or if you're loaded do an ATOM or MIRA or (Medicine In Remote Areas) or other security contractor related course. If you do MIRA course then MAKE SURE YOU ONLY DO IT WITH EXMED. They're the original creators of the course but it isn't a patented whatjamacallit, so a bunch of other random companies offer the same name, but not the same course, if that makes sense.
http://www.realfirstaid.co.uk/mediccourses/
These guys sum it up rather well.
>>27947968
anyone who recommends quikclot has no idea what they are doing.
First off there is no real reason to use quikclot in any situation where medical help is even remotely near and using quikclot will make first responders and doctors job harder.
Secondly it carries many side negative side affects such as but not limited to
>can not be used on anyone who has a shellfish allergy
>when contacting water quikclot causes an exothermic reaction. Those who are prepared for this will be fine, putting quikclot on someone who doesn't know that's going to happen will cause them to panic and possibly injure themselves further
>in windy conditions can blow into peoples eyes and cause irritation as the quikclot contacts water on your eyeballs
And all of this come with the fun fact that the military doesn't even use quikclot preferring to use quikclot impregnated gauze.
Seriously as a civilian do not use quikclot
>>27947968
>Learn to apply basic first aid properly. Doing it improperly can do more harm than good.
Yes indeed now stop putting out worthless recommendations on the interent
>>27948130
Again, quickclot has not been sold in a powdered form for years.
>being retarded
>criticizing me
>>27948076
I'm fluent in english, so I'll definitely consider it. Thanks!
>>27948147
It has though I see it all the time in sports department stores advertised for like bike injuries and stuff. It's really fucked up.
Even then recommending quikclot gauze to anyone except a trained professional in a desperate situation is foolish.
>>27948130
>can not be used on anyone who has a shellfish allergy
False. Although components for some haemostatic agents come from shrimp, there has not been a single reported case of it causing a problem, even among those with known shellfish allergies.
>when contacting water quikclot causes an exothermic reaction. Those who are prepared for this will be fine, putting quikclot on someone who doesn't know that's going to happen will cause them to panic and possibly injure themselves further
So tell them? The product that caused burns has been recalled and not sold since 2009. Everything you'll buy today, 6 years on, will be fine
>in windy conditions can blow into peoples eyes and cause irritation as the quikclot contacts water on your eyeballs
So just use bandages impregnated by the stuff.
These are not difficult issues to overcome bud...
Of course I believe there may be some confusion here, as everyone seems to be referring to "QuikClot", which is of course a specific BRAND of haemostatic agents. There are many companies and products that do the same job, and not QuiKClot
More Info:
http://www.realfirstaid.co.uk/haemostatics/
>>27948065
You can get celox though, pretty much the same thing.
>>27948215
Fair enough I'm misinformed but this still doesn't change the fact that these medical tools even though they have there place it's really not for most civilian use. Even a tourniquet is a far preferable option over a Haemostatic for severe bleeding.
The only time a clotting impregnated gauze would be useful for anything non mil would be if you're in a very secluded place with severe torso bleeding and you still expect to get to a hospital before the clotting agent causes anymore issues.
>>27948289
I'd totally agree, haemostatics are useful but are not the end all, be all, magic healing glue some people seem to make them out to be. Emphasis should be on pressure, elevation and tourniquet usage you're right
