Do you think the bullpup design will become the standard for rifles in the future /k/?
>>27929403
Probably. Especially once we perfect the trigger.
Once all the losers that have been indoctrinated with conventional layouts die we'll be able to ascend.
>>27929403
yes
>>27929474
Agreed. Especially with how many new rifles being designed and created are of a bullpup design and even shotguns too.
>>27929403
Once they fix the whole "Hot Brass in Leftie Face" problem with one universal solution.
Downward ejection is my choice for that.
>>27929530
I'd be down with downward ejection that also kicked it forwards. Keep it away from clothing and gear. The lack of a traditional ejection port to check is a bit worrying though.
I want a bullpup for my next rifle.
Question is, why would I ever buy a Steyr AUG over a Israli Tavor? They seem to be about the same price online. And the Tavor is more modern and reliable. And sexier looking.
Am I missing something?
Pretty much every first world military already has except murika Canada Germany
>>27929530
Isn't that problem already solved though?
Bullpup rifles from the AUG to the Tavor all have reversible ejection ports and bolts.
>>27929570
>the Tavor is more modern and reliable.
Both wrong.
>>27929570
Would depend on what AUG you're comparing it to.
If you're comparing it to the old A1s then yeah its more modern but otherwise the Steyr AUG is fairly modern in its variants.
>>27929574
But thats just the thing. With being such a big factor of arms and military bullpup wont be standard until burgerland finally leaves behind their precious AR platform.
>>27929586
>>27929604
Okay, then I can safely assume they are both up to speed. But why would I choose one over the other?
>>27929570
Tavor is a shit. Get the AUG or go home.
>>27929634
Personal preference in my opinion. Unless you're a /pol/lack and don't want to buy a "jew" gun.
>>27929634
AUG is higher quality and, in my experience, more reliable.
It's just a more refined design. I guess the Tavor might be more appealing if you just have to have your STANAG mags, but even the AUG has a stock that accepts those now.
>>27929634
Aesthetics. You prefer the tavor so we already you have a shit sense of that. Long stroke vs. Adjustable short stroke. The aug trigger is less mushy than the tavor, a more solid break. The Tavor is back heavy while the aug balences right on the grip. You can choose from 4 interchangeable barrel lengths on the aug.
>>27929570
The AUG is 200% sexier and, from what I hear, has a better trigger.
>>27929727
The AUG has an odd trigger. Mine works like this:
It's heavy. Has a VERY slight amount of take up, then a clean hard break, but then a shit load of over travel.
Now, I suspect that overtravel is a relic of the progressive trigger for the fully automatic variety, but it just makes it odd in a semi auto.
It's not a terrible trigger or anything, and you can get used to it.
>>27929651
>>27929727
Tavor's trigger is heavier, the AUG's is mushier.
>>27929779
Id love to shoot a full-retard AUG and see the difference.
Most criticism you read about bullpup triggers is an exaggeration of the issue though.
>>27929403
>Do you think the bullpup design will become the standard for rifles in the future /k/?
No. I think Bullpups are fantastic and own the trinity (FS2000, Tavor, AUG) but they just will never be accepted like traditional guns.
New Zealand and several other countries that used to have AUGs as their service rifles are no replacing them with AR variants and other traditional rifles. France and Germany are going in together to find a new service weapon, and one of the French requirements is that the gun is not a bullpup. I believe Canada MIGHT be looking at a new service rifle that is a bullpup, but I'm not sure.
The bottom line is countries that once used bullpups as their service rifles are now switching back to conventional designs.
>>27929808
>the AUGs is mushier
lolno
Ive tried the tavor and both semi and full auto AUG a1 (no I dont own one, lets just say I tried a friends overseas).
The full auto AUG trigger felt like around 10lbs pullback.
>>27929828
>France and Germany are going in together to find a new service weapon, and one of the French requirements is that the gun is not a bullpup
Not true. France is going it alone and in the process of evaluating rifles right now and among the candidates is HS's VHS2, a bullpup.
>>27929570
IWI intern detected.
>>27929620
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXQk6_dg_c4
>>27929403
No. I own several bull pups, but let's face the facts here. The triggers suck and mag wells/reloading sucks. Anyone who disputes this is a lying cunt.
>>27929919
>mag wells/reloading sucks.
Not really. It's just different. No appreciable change in reloading speed.
>>27929808
>Most criticism you read about bullpup triggers is an exaggeration of the issue though.
No, it's not. Bullpup triggers are inherently worse than standard rifle triggers...my AR and AK triggers (both factory and aftermarket) are as sweet as 16 yr old pussy.
>>27929808
>AUG's is mushier
Flat out wrong.
>>27929957
Bullshit. YOU can reload a bullpup faster than an AR? I doubt it. Maybe almost as fast as an AK, but I still doubt it.
>>27929981
>Muh .2 second faster reload speed.
Inconsequential.
>>27929403
Here are the worlds first 10 military powers. As you can see, only three of them use bullpups. Don't get me wrong, i too believe bullpups are superior, but it seems the advantages just aren't enough for a country to invest in a complete change over.
>>27929984
Not trying to be that guy, but it's obvious to me that you have never had to reload under stress. You cannot reload an AUG or Tavor with .2 sec of reloading an AR.
>>27930007
Bet you I can.
Reloading bullpups really isn't difficult or slow.
>>27929570
Don't listen to the noguns. I've owned and shot both and hands down the Tavor is better. The controls are better, it's more ergonomic, it looks better(imo), and is more reliable. As far as the trigger goes, the Aug has it beat, but not by much.
>>27930007
It just doesn't matter in real life ...
>>27929828
>New Zealand and several other countries that used to have AUGs as their service rifles are no replacing them with AR variants
Thats because new Zealand desperately wants to be like America. See: Their ugly ACU knockoff they got to impress America only for the US to switch to Scorpion 6 months later. The Steyr isn't bad, its just worn out.
>>27930007
>you cannot reload an AUG or Tavor with...
>you cannot
No anon, I primarily shoot bullpups, so I can reload them just as fast as someone good with ARs can. Maybe YOU can't, because you're not familiar, but that's not my problem.
>>27929828
No they aren't. New Zealand is the only one and they can hardly be considered a country of their own.
>>27929403
Whats the best budget bullpup? I wanted a F2000 but I never see them any more.
>>27930043
>>27930127
Prove it, fags.
>>27929960
"Inherently worse" doesn't mean the issue isnt exaggerated by detractors.
My main gripe with both AUG and Tavor, and FS2k for that matter, has nothing to do with their triggers and is almost never mentioned by them...
>>27929963
Shooting side by side, not just finger-banging at a lgs, tavor seemed heavier but with a better break and reset. But again, that issue is a bit overblown in general me thinks.
>>27930312
Not them, but if it takes me a fraction of a second longer to perform a bullpup reload and I dont even practice it much its not so hard to believe. Some guys use the back of their hand to toggle the mag release and are pretty fast at it.
>>27930452
>Inherently worse" doesn't mean the issue isnt exaggerated by detractors.
Ok, I can concede to that point.
>>27929577
Not reverseable, we want a fully ambidextrous, on the fly solution
>>27929779
Is there anything you can add to block the trigger from overtraveling? Sounds like an OK trigger if you cleared that up.
>>27929530
Masterrace
>>27929530
Seen the DesertTech MDR? it's forward ejection acheived by a simple mechanism that sits over a regular ejection port, and can be flipped down to allow as much access as an AR-15 ejection port allows.
Nope, and this comes from a guy who was conscripted and had to use a memepup as service rifle
Bullpups offer nothing of significant advantage compared to a conventional and bringing their own slew of issues. Basically solving a nonexistent problem with a solution that introduces extra problem.
Not to say they're objectively bad and unable to be improved (my rifle never failed me during live practices), just that they're just a marketing fad within the arms industry, and their fangays keep trying to shill them as MUH NEXT STEP IN SMALL ARMS DEVELOPMENT when they aren't as special as anyone thought, and not worth the logistical nightmare and political shitstorm of changing a large military's arsenal with completely new weapons and parts
>>27934201
What Is this?
>>27934470
Lurk moar newshit
>>27934470
a time in mikhail kalashnikov's life when he liked to experiment with hard drugs
>>27929530
P90 does the downward ejection, but I can't think of any assault rifle calibre weapons that do it.
Most just have the reversible ejection port, maybe if we can figure out a good form of caseless ammo won't have to worry about that.
i feel like for an smg id like a bullpup but for a rifle id rather just have a carbine length one. having the magazine in front so you can use it as a rest is nice too
>>27934540
Keltec RDB
>>27934572
With carbine 5.56 barrel lengths you lose enough velocity that it doesn't cause the wounds that originally almost got it banned. That's the bullpup advantage, long barrel, high velocity projectile, short overall length
>>27934684
except i dont use fmj in my rifle
>>27929403
I think a true ambidextrous design has to be made mainstream first.
Shit like the Tavor, AUG, FS2000, they're nice but they're not truly ambidextrous; especially the last two.
The RFB/RDB/MDR are more in line with this idea, and if they make it big then i think the future is looking good.
>>27934470
TKB-022PM
Designed by the mastermind of badass weapons that never got adopted, German Korobov
>>27929474
Leaving a loaded weapon on the ground on instant/fire.
>>27929586
Oh Jesus. This guy. Go dick up your AUG while the adults talk.
>>27935749
>FS2000
>not truly ambidextrous
You what mate?
>>27937070
The charging handle is only on the left side
>>27930062
>real life
>"reload under stress"
Oh, honey. His entire point is that it absolutely matters "in real life".
>>27937193
Doesn't stop you from shooting it from both shoulders.
>>27937220
Does make it not "completely ambidextrous" though.
>>27937193
Do the RFB, RDB and MDR have a charging handle on both sides?
>>27929808
I see complaints about triggers with bullpups and glocks (my service weapons) all the time, I have no idea what people are talking about, Its probably because they fiddle with their own guns till they are 'perfect' and can't make do with the standardized kit the military issues.
>>27937394
>service weapon
>bullpup
Jew or Aussie?
>>27929420
Why are bulpup triggers shit?
>>27937394
I don't get it either, what makes a trigger bad?
>>27937509
The mechanisim is much larger, since the round sits behind the trigger. Just think of it being clumsier.
>>27929988
if we created the perfect service rifle it wouldn't be adopted for half a century, the only times weapons have been rapidly adopted is with the dawn of the assault rifle and even then the US had to go through an M14 phase before they truly saw the benefits of the M16.
you have to weigh the logistical impact of outfitting entire branches of the military with the tactical impact when debating whether to adopt a new service rifle.
Bullpups have their pros and cons. The obvious advantage is that they're shorter and lighter. That's nothing to overlook, bet neither are the cons. They have poor triggers because of the transfer bar, the reload are tricky and betrays any muscle memory and generally don't feel intuitive. You'll have a shorter sight radius. The shooter will perceive more noise from firing. Some people also don't like resting their face right above the firing chamber.
Pros and cons.
>>27929884
>hacksaw blade trigger
>>27929988
Who else uses bullpups not on that list?
Don't the Croats, Australians, Austrians, Israelis, and Singaporeans? I feel like I'm missing people.
>>27937642
Ireland, Saudi Arabia, Bolivia
>>27929403
yes once ambidextrous or bottom ejecting becomes a thing.
would a bullpup rifle with a slightly offset magazine that ejects from the bottom be feasible? pic related; over 9000 hours in paint
>>27934540
caseless ammo can overheat your gun really quick, not something you need in combat
>>27934589
Real guns, not imaginary ones.
>>27937381
RFB you can switch. Takes about 10-20 seconds.
>>27937664
Iran, Jamaica,
>>27934470
overly complex system of ramps and pulleys
>>27934769
Assuming you use this, have you noticed it being undercharged? It consistently hits 2-3" lower at 100yards than just about any other ammo I've tried out of a 16" barrel.
>>27937818
What speak you? I think they're for sale right now.
>>27929403
i think that the reloading is a little weird or is that just me?
>>27934406
>logistical nightmare
i see these words way too much here.
>>27937851
That's federal ammo right? My C93 will not cycle the stuff no matter the bullet type, it reacts the exact same way to the bear ammo, not enough force to fully cycle the bolt.
>>27930056
JIDF pls
>>27929988
So this lists theirs
>China - QBZ 95
>UK - SA80
>France - FAMAS
But what about the others?
>>27937642
>>27937664
>>27937825
>Croatia - VHS
>Australia - Aug
>Austria - Aug
>Isreal - Tar-21
What about Singapore, Ireland, Saudi Arabia, Bolivia, Jamaica and Iraq?
>>27929988
Brasil uses the Imbel IA2 now, and I think England is going to the M4 since they don't make their own guns anymore and the SA80s are wearing out.
>>27937975
Ireland uses the Aug
Jamaica uses the SA80.
Singapore uses the SAR 21
Also Slovenia uses the F2000.
I own a bullpup but have never operated. Does armor + other gear worn on your chest interfere with your ability to reload a bullpup?
>>27937858
They are actually, and the few that are available are reasonably priced from what I've seen. Kinda making me eat my own words from earlier in the year.
But I'm going to keep bad mouthing Kel-tec because they've pissed me off so many times with their shitty production numbers.
Iran uses bullpups? Since when? The KH2002 was never adopted in large numbers, the Army uses and the IRGC uses a Iranian made Kalashnikov.
>>27929511
>even shotguns too.
bullpup shotguns have been around for a while, even with tac lights
>>27938321
Nope, just that you can't stick the magazine up your armpit and expect it to go in right. I usually raised the rifle a little and the magwell would be in the clear.
In terms of infantry rifles in future combat, would it be totally outside the realms of possibility to have a rifle that could fire more than one calibre of ammo?
>>27929919
>The triggers suck
My RFB's is fine, heavier than i'd like at 5.5lbs but it isnt horrible
>>27937818
I already showed you links of them on gun broker and on KTOG. Now STFU and post pics of your buffer. Do you only shitpost on the chins when you're at work?
>>27929988
Let's be honest though, the AK47, INSAS, FN FAL and in many opinions, the M4 are way outdated, it's just a matter of time before they are replaced, I can see Brazil adopting a bullpup rifle as the already use the SA80 in some police units along with several other South American countries, India has a hard on for the Tavor and I believe some of their elite cops are fielding the older Steyr AUG already, it's not outside the realms of possibility that the US and RUS maybe be the only ones in the top 10 not using bullpups in the next 10 years
>you know how how you know someone shit talking bullpups because the trigger has never actually shot a bullpup not on a bench at a 1 round per five minute range?
Clearly nobody has ever, ever tried to opr8 with a plate carrier and a bullpup. Not only is it slightly more cumbersome to properly shoulder it, but the loaded magazine constantly catches on your mags/mag pouches depending on your setup- exacerbated even more if you have double stacked mags, more than 2 mags across your chest, tilt the gun slightly, or try to change shoulders.
fuck has anybody here even fired a gun
>>27937858
>>27937818
>Joke
>Your heads
>>27929570
Mac?
Not to criticise your set-up but are you keeping your mags on your chest? It might serve you better to keep them situated lower on your body to avoid this, I have never experienced any of the issues you mentioned p, the only issue I have is using a strap but this is pretty rare as I need to stay mobile and not have a weapon dangling off my fat gut whilst climbing in and out of a vehicle
>>27938422
Mostly, since I'm always at work. Also see >>27938380
>tfw my AUG was supposed to be here Wednesday
>Did not get in till Thursday
>FFL has not returned my call today about getting it "this morning"
Fuuuucckk.
>>27938488
>tfw have AUG
>tfw ran out of money for optics
>tfw haven't even shot it yet
It's just taking up space in my safe at the moment.
No, bullpup is inherently shit. Reloading is too hard and the reduced length makes to tangible difference.
>>27938411
The idea of only needing a bolt change and magwell mod to go from 7.62x51 NATO to 7.62x39mm is interesting.
Being able to use enemy ammo in your gun would be a nice feature.
>>27938506
Seller included a shitty red dot, I just want to function test it in reasonable time.
I have a burris MTAC coming next week for the gun.
>>27938519
>>27929403
I've got a good amount of hands on time with the AUG, L85, and FAMAS. I was not super impressed with any of them. They have benefits, but having used them side by side with an M4 I don't think the benefits are nearly as great as some people think.
>>27938548
The reduced length is worthless: modern non-bullpup carbines are short enough for CQC. Bullmeme only makes for a more complex and less usable design.
>>27938582
>>27937997
No we have an upgrade project in the works for the L85 rifles, we do use M4s already we buy them from Colt Canada (Diemaco) under the L119A1 designation but they are currently employed only by SF units,RM police close protection. and some Brigade Reece Force units, it should be of note that we may or may not have upgraded to the L119A2s another upgrade project has been in the works for the A1s for a while but UKSF dosent really like to be public about that stuff.
>>27938611
I thought you decommissioned your arms plants. Do you make them in a different country or is that bullshit?
>>27929403
No, ejection sucks and they are annoying to reload. Also for some reason they are expensive as fuck, seriously guys. Drop price by like $1000 on either Tavor or Aug and they might be worth a try. QBZ will always be a shit
Only application I can see is maybe a gun for tankers, pilots, guys who don't have much room. But you could also just use a short barrel conventional rifle in .308 or .300 BLK or whatever and get similar performance to .223 bullpup with none of the problems
>>27938610
>>27938628
> he thinks the AUG and Tavor are $600-$700 guns
This must be bait.
>>27938644
hey, whaddya know? It's almost like there's an optimal barrel length or some shit
>>27938321
Not for reloads, but could suck not having an adjustable stock wearing a thick PC though. Nice feature on the VHS-2.
>>27938380
At least we still have the MDR vaporware to discuss for awhile still.
But have to say it looks like Kel-Tec done good. Early adapters tend to give glowing reviews, but reports on the RDB seem pretty positive. Low weight and cost, down ejection, and a trigger w/o typcial bullpup slop are intriguing. A little disappointed to see they stayed with a 1-9 twist.
>>27938582
The reduced oal is only part of it though, getting most the weight up right on your shoulder is the real benefit. I can accurately fire a bullpup one-handed. Also helps masks the weight of heavier accessories. I had a SpecterDR that weighed more than a pound. Made my otherwise lightweight AR feel a bit unwieldy, while it added almost no perceived weight to my bullpup.
>>27938611
Will they be the L85A3 or some new designation?
>>27938627
Well the L85A1 was produced at the Royal Small Arms factory and was closed in the late 80s, but was taken over by BAE Systems which currently produce the L85s along with alot of other really nice top of the line military hardware.
>>27938700
I'm not sure, I don't think MOD has even had the trials yet. But I know around 2020 they are going to do a complete overhaul on the armed forces so maybe then.
i dont need no stinkin bullpoo
>>27938796
Nice bike, I picked one of those up for $800 when I was a kid, loads of fun
So what would the best bullpup be?
My ideas
>full ambidextrous controls including charging handle
>magazine release by trigger like a traditional rifle has, but also a backup release where the magazine is located, like the DesertTech MDR has, allowing you to reload by letting the mag drop while you grab the new mag, or do a retentive reload by using the release by the magazine to grab it as it falls
>adjustable stock to eliminate the "one size fits all" problem like the VHS has
>make the action and such as short as possible to allow the most configuration options, letting operators be able change foregrip position instead of the built in "one size fits all" foregrip many bullpups have
>some sort of ambidextrous compatible ejection solution, forward ejection, downward ejection, perhaps something that can be either to the right or the left changed by flipping a switch instead of needing tools or extra parts like other guns that have a swappable ejection port
>balance point at or behind the grip for comfortable handing and less fatigue
>>27939017
One that isn't a bullpup
And for gods sake at least upgrade to DVD
>>27939028
>you can't give soldiers semi auto guns and detachable magazines, they'll just waste ammo like that!
How does it feel to be on the wrong side of history?
>>27938644
>L85 has larger LOP than M16A2
>>27937798
balls of steel
>>27938582
It's reduced length without energy loss you fucking sperg. It's completely fine to just say you don't like bullpups. We all have preferences but don't spout bullshit
>>27938627
>I thought you decommissioned your arms plants
where the fuck do you come up with this shit?
the UK is the world's #5 manufacturer and exporter of arms, BAE systems is pretty much tied for the #2 spot with Boeing and on some years manages to get to #1 above Lockheed-Martin.
>>27939359
>implying a longer length of pull isn't more comfortable
Manlet detected.
