I hate how in some videogames like Fallout increasing your skill with guns makes the guns themselves stronger. I also never understood how two guns of the same caliber could cause different damage. How would you make a gun skill work and how would gun attributes be handled in your game /k/?
>>27912985
>I also never understood how two guns of the same caliber could cause different damage
muzzle velocity
>>27912985
I agree with your first point, but for the second one you can just blame it on barrel length/quality.
>>27913002
>>27912994
There has to be some better way to represent damage though.
>>27912985
>How would you make a gun skill work and how would gun attributes be handled in your game /k/?
The higher your skill the more accurate your gun is and the less gun sway you get
>>27912985
I'm autistic as fuck and I still think
>enjoy your autism
>>27912985
Firstly: "bullet spread" is an awful mechanic. Given the engagement distances of most shooty games, bullets should go where they're pointed all the time. There are exceptions, but few.
Conversely, pointing those bullets is too easy. Nobody can turn as fast as someone can jack up the sensitivity on a mouse, or align irons perfectly in a split-second. So: aiming should be an absolute bitch. Stuff like hard-capping turn speed based on the wieldiness of the weapon and mouse deceleration the further you turn, as well as slight randomization of your weapon alignment and weapon sway from any motion ever.
Skill increases would then loosen these restrictions, as well as provide very slight time dilation during combat, in order to remove mouse aiming skill from the equation as much as possible.
But that sounds like a shit game, so.
>>27912985
>I also never understood how two guns of the same caliber could cause different damage.
Different muzzle-velocities and/or ammo types.
>How would you make a gun skill work and how would gun attributes be handled in your game /k/?
Proper stance -> less visible recoil, better groupings.
Experience with said gun -> faster reload time and bring-up speed.
Personally, I don't think that artificial "skills" that boost damage and such belong to shooters. The whole point of FPS genre is to let player use a set of tools, master their quirks, and learn to utilize them as effectively as possible. This is one reason titles like the new Shadow Warrior just irritate me, along many other stupid reasons.
I think STALKER does decent job balancing between "realism" and semi-RPG-like balanced gameplay.
>>27912985
>There are people so autistic they can't understand game balance
I bet you wonder why LMGs do less damage than SMGs too.
>>27913278
only in bad, consolitis casual games, like CoD/BF.
Don't care how much people bitch about games like RO2, but at least there, the guns feel like they're spewing some big, hot lead towards the victims, ripping them apart.
Hell, it even has some of that >>27913216
stuff, like the "free aim" removing the need for both extensive bullet-spread, and allowing you to put shots where the barrel points to.
>>27913322
I have 1000 hours in ro2 and yeah, that is nice. But in most games that's not the case.
>>27913250
Argh, the colour sergeants reload the L85 like the right, and I reload like the left.
I need to get good.
>>27913353
>But in most games that's not the case.
Not surprising, since "most games" these days fall to that "consolized casualitis" category.
>>27913381
>>27913322
Is this your own gameplay? I'm pretty good at ro2 and I bet I could record some cool shit. Always a market for good ro2 gameplay on /v/ and /k/.
>>27913322
they made the SMGs way more inaccurate than they should be though so bolt babies would stop crying
>>27913429
>bolt babbies
you serious?
>>27913402
nah, just stuff I've picked from /v/ and such. I don't really record my own footage beyond occasional screenshots.
>>27913429
u wot m8?? SMGs fucking rape anything at close ranges, like they pretty much should. You can even "snipe" with them up to 100m tops, if you use single shot or short bursts.
Only the Stg-43 is more OP.
>>27912985
It's a video game, that's why. If you want a game that requires some skill with realism, then play DayZ
>>27913455
I'm curious who recorded the first two screenshots, because they're on 2fjg which is my main server and that guy seems pretty good, which means I might know him. Was hoping it was you so I could ask you lol.
>have a chat with HC Xbox CoD & BF fan
>mention to him that I dislike those games since it can literally take a full mag to the head to kill someone in those games nowadays
>he thought that killing a man with a single shot, out of a pistol of all things, would be "very unrealistic!".
This is the market the AAA industry designs their games for.
>>27913487
Do people actually play on any servers besides 2Fjg? I seriously hope not.
Increasing gun skills = better shot placement.
git gud
>>27913519
>he thought that killing a man with a single shot, out of a pistol of all things, would be "very unrealistic!".
But anon that IS unrealistic
>>27913542
The people on the /k/ommando steam group hate 2fjg for whatever reason. I was on their ts one night and they're all massive faggots, I had to explain to them why manual bolting is superior. Whatever though, I'll just stick to the 2fjg teamspeak. At least they're adults.
>>27913552
>>27913569
>hate 2fjg
>need to be taught not to use automatic bolting
I think I see a connection here.
>>27913599
Yep. And since 2fjg has been dead for most of the day recently due to retarded decisions by the higher ups in the clan who don't even play ro2 anymore, I've been forced to play on Merril's and Bloodbath and all those, and the people there really are just awful. I thought ro2 had an overall more mature community than most online games, but now i realize that's only because I played on 2fjg exclusively. Average age on 2fjg must be like 20-30 (most guys on ts are in their 30s, 40s or 50s), and on Merril's I would guess it's 15-18. Pretty disgusting seeing the disparity.
Anyway, enough ranting. What's your name? I may have seen you around.
>>27913636
Fuck, I was just thinking of getting back into playing. How exactly did they fuck the server up? I legitimately find just about any other server unplayable, I think there was some britfag clan one that I used as a backup but I don't know if it's still active.
I go by Elephant; I usually play on and off but haven't since summer.
>>27913686
They changed the map rotation a number of times, enacted a "night rotation" with 5 maps that for some reason they thought would keep the server alive over night, but they kept forgetting to change it back from that rotation so all day the server would play the same 5 maps. And then they would keep trying to justify their shit with "statistics" to show that it was working (once they actually detailed their data collection methods it became clear they were fucking retards), and they added in dumb custom maps that nobody liked, and then removed maps that people liked, yada yada.
So the server has been inactive for most of the day, but it gets full in the evenings and it's slowly coming back to life because we organized a petition to hand over control of the server to people who actually play.
They also tried to tell us that the server is dying because of an overall decrease in players in all of ro2, which is also untrue (actually the opposite). It's really just this server that has been going to shit while everyone is forced to play on shitty servers in the meantime.
>>27912985
>How would you make a gun skill work and how would gun attributes be handled in your game /k/?
Warning: Autistic Post Ahead
Rather than have guns have a set damage, the bullet does the damage. For example, instead of having "10mm pistol" do 10 damage a shot, "10mm Hollow point" does 10 damage, "10mm FMJ" could do 9 damage, etc.
For different barrel lengths firing the same cartridge, then a damage modifier could be used on the gun. So "10mm Pistol" would have a 1.00 modifier, but the "10mm SMG" would have 1.20 damage modifier because of its longer barrel.
And if you want to get even more in-depth, then the hit point damage that each bullet type does can be varied into different categories. For example, a "10mm Hollowpoint" could do 10 damage over all, but that 10 damage is distributed among 3 different damage types; fragmentation, blunt, and penetration. Fragmentation would be how wide the bullet opens up and how wide the wound channel is, blunt is the blunt force impact of the round independent of other variables, and penetration is of course how far the bullet can travel through media before stopping.
Now, back to the "10mm hollowpoint", lets say that 10 damage it causes is 1 blunt damage, 6 fragmentation, and 3 penetration. When the bullet impacts a enemy a calculation is preformed: unarmored enemies get the full damage, but those will armor will negate the damage of the bullet up to their armor ratings. So lets say Bad Guy 1 is wearing a old flak vest and is struck by the player's "10mm hollowpoint". The old flak vest has a penetration armor rating of 4, and a fragmentation armor rating of 8; these values are higher than the "10mm hollowpoint" penetration and fragmentation values and thus these damages are completely negated. However, the armor provides no blunt force impact protection and thus that damage has no problem getting through and hitting the Bad Guy.
*continued*
>>27913776
Sounds like typical server management autism. Hopefully it'll rebound.
>>27913834
I'm listening anon....
I'd make the handling a lot like Infiltration (UT99 mod), Insurgency (HL2 mod, not sure how the new one is), and Resistance And Liberation. Those games do a lot things like minimal UI, shoot-where-you-aim instead of firing cones, single bullets can kills which makes covering fire actually effective, guns collide with walls and corners, etc.
I'd have the reload animations spend more time reaching for mags and less time doing exaggerated motions.
"Stats" would the speed at which you can run, switch weapons, shoulder the weapon after running, control recoil, peek around corners or move indoors.
Having your eyes adjust to light would be another realistic, possibly pain in the ass, feature.
>>27913834
You need to play the flash game Caravaneeer 2. JHP does better damage but is crap at piercing armor, but it also depends on what barrel you're firing it from.
> post-habbeding wasteland with moist nuggets and weed smuggling
Why aren't you playing already?
>>27913947
Dude, this is awesome because learning about different calibers is what originally got me into guns. Also, this would work calibers into the core strategy of the game, so people would be debating calibers and actually learning shit from it. Also, I've always wished that it would say the caliber of the gun you're killed with in the killfeed, so for instance "AKM, 7.62x39mm" or something.
The educational potential of something like that would be enormous.
>>27913834
>>27913834
>>27914022
But lets say that the Player shoots Bad Guy number 2, who also has a flak vest, with "10mm FMJ", which has a penetration of 6, fragmentation of 2, and blunt of 1. The penetration value of 6 is higher than the armor rating of 4 and thus 2 penetration damage goes through, plus the 1 blunt damage for a total of 3 damage to the enemy. The 2 penetration that made it past the enemies armor when then cause a "bleeding wound" that causes 1/4 damage per second for each point of penetration damage that made it past the armor. For fragmentation damage, this would be 1 hit point lost per second per point of fragmentation damage that made it past the armor (thus getting hit with a hollowpoint round while unarmored would fucking rekt you quick, as that 6+ fragmentation damage per second would take your 100HP character out in 16 seconds).
Now, for player hit points, ARMA 3 and DayZ has an excellent system; you can NOT be killed by damage from the limbs. Instead, damage to the limbs have their own hit-point value that once exhausted, are crippled (of course the wounds can still bleed you out but you can not be killed purely based on instant damage).
Additionally, Dayz Has a neat feature called bone damage that futher expands on this; that is damage to your nervous system and bone system over time. So you can get shot the fuck up and re-healed to full health but your bone system (which lists each bone system in the body, such as leg, spine, arms, etc) is a separate stat that with enough damage, will fracture, with devastating results if it happens to your spine. Thus you can go for spine shots and breaking legs and arms (Note that falling damage could also be simulated by bone damage rather than straight linear "fall x feet reach y damage to whole player").
Heres a good video on how the Dayz system functions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wky22FdMY5w
*continued*
>>27913015
Quicker draw speeds, better point shooting, and knowing how to clear a jam are things I would add
>>27913322
>RO2
Not nearly as good as the original.
>>27914154
tl;dr DAYZ is fuckin operator
>>27914154
...and on top of all this shit you could have a "fatigue" or "shock" system.
Each point of penetration or fragmentation damage could do, say, 1/4 a point of "fatigue" damage, and each point of blunt damage could do two points of fatigue damage. In this way, you could take out enemies in body armor without actually piercing their armor, or with a big enough bullet simple knock someone unconscious instantly (then have them bleed out seconds later of course).
For example, lets say Bad Guy 3 walks around a corner into the Player Character. Bad Guy 3 has a really nice Kevlar vest and helmet on, which will stop any 10mm rounds the player character is carrying. However, the helmet, which has really high armor ratings, has no blunt force impact rating. Thus, the player character can shoot the bad guy in the helmet and the blunt force damage of the round will go through the armor and cause massive fatigue damage (of course the head will have a blunt force modifier that makes all damage x5), which causes the Bad Guy to go unconscious.
>>27912985
i look at it as gun skill is increasing your accuracy (both in and out of vats), but also precision. it matters that you hit them, but it also matters where you hit them and how often you hit that perfect spot (or rather, how precise)
thus, the guns damage represented by a number is just the composite average of all the likely spots you're likely to hit
that's the way i see it
>>27912985
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_velocity
Fallout is an RPG, i.e. role-play game. Skill points are a thing.
Not to mention that Fallout not meant to be realistic.
>>27914303
That's pretty solid anon, not gonna lie.
>>27912985
The original Fallouts (1,2, and Tactics) didn't do that sort of stuff. They just gave you a percentage on what chance of damage you'll do and the chance of you hitting someone.
>>27912985
its a RPG and thus not real life ya dingus
>>27914009
Holy shit, I remember a thread about.,.. 2 years ago? It was a /k/omrade on a dev team for a flash game that was asking for suggestions on how to make their game more combat realistic, and they showed some of their screenshots for a early build and Caravaneer 2 is literally that game.
Shit, I've been playing the game for about 30 minutes now and they even added some of the suggestions in that thread (a bunch of ammo types, muzzle velocity, armor piercing rounds, etc).
It's just a game senpai.
One that doesn't tote the realism thing at all. For fucks sake it's an RPG set in a alt-50s apocalypse. I don't think they give a fuck as to weither their knowledge on guns is tip top or not. Realism is the job of the modders who enjoy that shit and games that do pride themselves on that shit.
>>27914154
Spine damage would be a great addition to games. Shooting somebody in the back or neck without killing/paralyzing them is annoying.
>>27912985
Like red orchestra 2 does it
>>27913552
>>27913589
To a certain extent, he is SOMEWHAT correct.
A shot to the head from a pistol, from longer ranges would no doubt leave you flat on your ass but not kill you.
However, in a game like CoD and BF, there is very few ways you can make it balance with current hardware restrictions.
You could have damage zones but that'd make every gun pointless since LOL body armor, making a weird ballance where snipers go for legs since those are realistically one shot kills while 5-6 shots of 556 are needed to defeat ballistic plates and 2 to 4 of 762.
Its not great, but it'd sure as shit be hard to make accurate especially with head crit zones.
Nobody wants a fast paced game where you run out and because of one lucky shot from a guy 300 feet away with an MG, you die, only to go out and experience the same thing.
You can't have realistic gunplay with fast paced action with a modern setting unfortunately.
>>27912985
>I hate how in some videogames like Fallout increasing your skill with guns makes the guns themselves stronger.
Yeah, it's stupid.
> I also never understood how two guns of the same caliber could cause different damage.
Different barrel lenghts mean different velocity.
Also, rounds fired from repeating firearms have slightly more velocity since nothing is lost on cycling the action. It's negligible though.
You can also blame it on loose homemade barrels or something.
>How would you make a gun skill work and how would gun attributes be handled in your game /k/?
Better accuracy, better shooting/reloading/aiming/drawing speed and better handling of the weapon.
>>27913278
>game balance
Why do they need to balnce firearms differently in vidya if they are already balanced in real life?
Every type of firearm has it's purpose and fills a specific niche. Have fun clearing a small, tight house with an LMG.
>>27913552
Yeah, there are cases of people surviving a pistol round to the head, but they weren't really able to function normally after that.
It would be enough to at least incapacitate said man.
He ain't going to operate before they remove that bullet from his head in the hospital.
>>27917813
Because 99% of all games aren't simulations.
The primary objective is to create something fun that sells, not pleasing rivet counting autists.
>>27914420
First 2 Fallouts had pretty realistic systems, except for bugged ammo types.
>>27917831
>The primary objective is to create something fun that sells, not pleasing rivet counting autists.
You can have both.
There is literally no reason not to make weapons realistic, except for laziness.
I know business is not about best quality possible, it's about optimal quality/consumer satisfaction ratio. But it doesn't mean we can't call it lazy.
>>27913322
Imagine if there was a RO mod for bf4.
>>27912985
It'd be cool to have gun skill affect your adrenaline response. Like being suppressed or ambushed would cause you to fumble magazines, accidentally discharge, make your aim shaky, etc. A higher gun skill would make those things less severe.
also >>27914231
You'd need to have it affect enemies and have good enemy AI for it not to be annoying as fuck though.
>>27917813
Games aren't usually programmed to deal with issue of real life like- reliability, rifle length, weight, fatigue, bullpup left-side shouldering, pistol DA trigger pulls. With all that shit ignored you only have a few things left that differentiate guns. Without resorting to tweaking the stats, there will a Gun A that will always be better than Gun B.
Imagine something odd like a Steyr GB, a 18 round 9mm gas delayed blowback pistol, vs a Glock 17, a 17 round 9mm short recoil pistol. Details of the GB will be ignored - gas port getting clogged, the slide getting hot, the heavy frame - because those things don't exist in video games. In the game people would pick the GB over the Glock 100% of the time because it holds 1 more round. It greatly limits the variety of weapons you can have.
>>27917849
>There is literally no reason not to make weapons realistic, except for laziness.
It costs money. You either need to hire somebody who knows it or rent the weapons. Then you need the time for the developers to make all of it realistic. The vast majority of players don't know or care so it's an expense to satisfy a tiny amount of people.
>lazy
MONEY
>>27917896
>MONEY
Yeah, sure, I get it, that's what business is all about, best quality/consumer satisfaction ratio. Doesn't mean it's not lazy.
They got their money, I get to call them lazy jews. Guess I should blame the audience more, because lack of quality is determined by the majority of the audience having low standards.
>>27913381
>waaaaah
>casuals
Some people have lives and jobs, they don't have time to sink a 1000+ hours into stuff to 'git gud'.
>>27913519
Its fun. Go play ARMA or something instead, you're a minority, I'm sorry.
>>27913776
I kind of feel the same way about the 29th Infantry Battalion server for Darkest Hour. The number of people joining who have to ask how get in vehicles, use the mortar, pick AT without knowing how to use it, pick sniper with the same problem, TK or spam the chat is just infuriating. I ought to just join 29th and play servers just for members, but you have to attend training at set times in the week, which isn't going to fit in with work.
>>27917893
I made a barebones TTRPG a while back and one of the skills I used was 'combat skill', it basically boils down to how well you keep your cool in high stress situations. I feel something akin to this would work well.
>>27917931
Its only a lack of quality to you though. Just flip your autist switch to off, mong out and have fun.
>>27917889
>flyinghelosinvanillaarma2.webm
>>27916602
>You can't have realistic gunplay with fast paced action with a modern setting unfortunately.
Spoken like a true casual gamer.
Fucking Counter-strike is FAR from "slow paced", and it has deadly as fuck modern guns. Pistols become almost obsolete when people start wearing armor.
the problem with modern AAA shooters is the fact that they're nothing but run-&-gun dicking around, with the whole point being loading up your magical killstreak meters to unleash some bullshit magic attack on your enemies. When the kids used to this kind of games try stuff like Red Orchestra, they are always running to the same line of fire of the same MG, over and over again, only to whine about "imbalances" or "hacks".
>>27917934
>Some people have lives and jobs, they don't have time to sink a 1000+ hours into stuff to 'git gud'.
And here comes the bullshit apologists.
Lets get basics off the table first: a typical (casual) console gamer is 12-20 yo kid living at their parents.
And what is this "life"? Spending 24/7 in work, and some remaining leftover time by getting wasted and complaining that your life sucks? That's called slavery, and you should fucking do something about it.
If you don't have that roughly 10h to learn how the game works, then why bother gaming anything beyond Angry Birds in general? Just because increasing amount of people are becoming mouth-breathers with no attention span doesn't mean that the videogames would have to encourage such behavior by being completely ridiculous, in all wrong ways.
>>27918290
And then the damage to armor/unarmored varying by weapon type and caliber is a nice that's always been in CS. For example a tec9 is a whole lot more powerful than a Glock but still has some issues with armor due to it being chambered in 9mm
Meanwhile the Five Seven and P228 deal with armor much better due to being chambered in 5.7 and .40 S&W respectively, with the p228 being the weakest of the two for penetration as .40 may be better for armor compared to 9mm but it's still pretty low in effectiveness
>>27918446
True.
Even the STALKER (unmodded) has fine balance with things, while trying to base its differences on reality.
Pistols and buckshot have short reach and poor armor-penetration, but fairly good flesh-wounding and staggering / "stopping-power".
Rifles pack far better penetration and reach, and while still deadly, they tend to not kill instantly without a headshot. The only MG, the PKM, is very potent, but the recoil and weight of it and its ammo make it quite unwieldy for most situations.
So yeah, there'd be ways to balance modern arsenal without going totally bollocks with the specs. Also damage-zones have been a thing since fucking N64's Goldeneye 007, but for some reasons most games barely have even the headshot damage multiplier anymore. The original Metro 2033 even had actual, physical armors with separated pieces like the helmet's visors, that you could shoot off with enough damage. They pretty much got rid of all that in the LL and REDUX versions though.
>>27912985
Off-topic here, but can anyone identify that gasmask?
I used to have one and always wondered what it was called
>>27918521
it's a German M65
>>27919593
it's not
different shape lenses
also m65 has only one strap going over the forehead
>>27913250
what game is this?
>>27919743
>>27912985
>your skill with guns makes the guns themselves stronger
Just like real life. Shot placement.
>>27919856
But I am the one placing the shots, not the game.
I suppose I should have specified I was talking about the first person modern Fallouts.
>>27913012
Damage stays the same, you introduce feats for the gun itself. So one could be called Steady hand. Which makes the cross hairs smaller.
>>27912985
Simple solutions to both:
>skill=dmg
Skill should effect accuracy and ADS speed, or if the game includes weapon malfunctions reduce the rate of occurrence and increase the speed of fixing them. If this means reducing initial accuracy (though not to Stalker SoC levels where you could still miss repeatedly from melee distance) and instituting a really fucking slow starter ADS speed, so be it.
It should have no effect on damage outside of emplaced (not thrown/fired) explosives such as mines and breaching charges, since placement really does matter and that takes a good bit to learn.
>same caliber, different damage
I think this is okay within reason. However, they tend to be WILDLY different through similar weapons (ex, FAMAS does more than M16). A 9mm compact pistol should do 5-10% less damage than a 9mm subgun with a 10" barrel, but should do the same damage as a full-size 9mm pistol. Likewise, a 5.56 rifle is a 5.56 rifle regardless of who made it.
One of the better systems for tinkering with damage is different bullet types with pros and cons. For example, JHP=max damage, lowest penetration, JSP=good all-rounder with average damage and penetration, and FMJ=lowest damage, best penetration. That way, for a single-player game you could have a section where you're, for example, shooting skinnies you'll want JHP's, but a different stage (not necessarily later in the game) you're shooting 1st-world cops with riot shields/Rooskies in body armor and want FMJ because the JHP's aren't penetrating the armor sufficiently to do any damage.
>>27918290
Citing CS for you're realistic gunplay
Yeah...good luck with that
>>27921518
>you're
it's definitely more than few steps above the level of any modern CoD or BF bullshit. For starters, the kevlar vest and helmet does not make you immune to bullets, and you won't magically heal by sitting in a corner.
