why were there so many more casualties at Omaha beach then the other beaches? Bad planning, better defenses?
>>27901654
Better defenses.
Americans can't fight unless they have a 70+ year tech advantage.
>>27901704
if you're going to b8 at least try
>>27901654
defenses were set up to make almost the entire beach one giant killzone.
Landing ships not dropping people off close enough because the pilots were cowards.
Tanks got dropped off too far out as well.
Green boys fresh out of boot camp being the first onto the beach.
Lots of other reasons.
>>27901654
The majority of the troops guarding the other beaches were conscripts from German-occupied countries like Poland and Czechoslovakia. They were unmotivated and under equipped. They surrendered pretty quickly after Allied troops started gaining significant ground.
The troops on Omaha beach did include several conscripts from occupied countries but also contained a veteran infantry unit (I forget what size) that was assigned to the beaches so it could rest after a long tour on the Eastern Front.
Multiple reasons.
Pre bombing was largely ineffective. The bunkers were still intact.
Bombardment was also ineffective and very sparse.
The troops landed had little to no combat experience. In contrast, several veteran units from the Eastern Front were present at Omaha for the Germans.
Most importantly, all the tanks sent were either sunk before landing or were destroyed shortly after reaching the beach. Without any heavy fire support the infantry were forced to take out the bunkers by storming them or getting close enough to toss in grenades and satchel charges. The layout of the beach made this all but impossible for attackers to accomplish without sustaining massive casualties.
The British encountered resistance almost as heavy as at Omaha, however after their years of Commando raids, mainly the failure at Dieppe, they knew how important heavy fire support was. The British had adopted tactics the US chose to ignore for some stupid reason, and using them were able to get most of their armor ashore. In close conjunction with the infantry they quickly wiped out enemy hardpoints while also using close bombardment from the navy to minimize casualties on their end.
It was 1 part bad luck and 1 part bad tactics, with a hefty dose of inexperience thrown into the mix.
>>27901654
Thanks Omaha
Since this is a WW2 thread and I don't want to make a new thread for a quick question I'll just post it here.
Looking to buy an M1A rifle and was wondering what was an acceptable price to pay for a new one and a used one. Thanks in advance /k/
>>27901704
Enjoying not speaking German or Russian europussy?
>>27902022
You forgot to include the low water tide as well.
>>27901654
Mostly bad luck and bad geography.
Bad luck in that pre-invasion bombardments were ineffective, most of the American tanks never reached the beach, and that they were facing against experienced Eastern Front veterans.
Also, the other beaches were all relatively flat, making it easy for the invasion forces to push inland. Omaha had a lot of high bluffs, which limited the areas the landing forces could get off the beach to several well defended chokepoints, and it gave the Germans superior firing positions down on the beach.
Read this article OP. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1960/11/first-wave-at-omaha-beach/303365/
>>27902902
Damn. ;__;7
>>27902155
Underrated post
Than. This is not a difficult concept. Than.
It was a combination of several factors
The fire support given on the day was sparse, and the bombing intended to soften the beach before the troops landed was mostly ineffective
The American troops taking the beach were mostly unseasoned fresh soldiers, while the German force at Omaha was mostly composed of Veteran units pulled from the eastern front, shored up with conscripts
The terrain on the beach and the way that the German's had constructed their emplacements ( High cliffs with access up out of the kill zone only afforded by five gullies) made it near impossible to get close without either heavy fire support or sustaining massive casualties, and because the naval artillery support was lacking and the tanks sent to assist the troop landings were mostly sank before they got ashore, with the few that did being quickly destroyed, the Allied forces on the beach were savaged as they slowly pushed through the killzone
A less talked about WW2 beach landing with high casualties would be ....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Anzio
The Germans were able to shell the shit out of the US forces on or near the beach. Despite eventually winning US forces took far heavier losses for it than any beach in D-day. All of the risks involved were in play.
>Of the 767 men in the 1st and 3rd Ranger Battalions, 6 returned to the Allied lines and 761 were killed or captured.[22]
>767
>6 returned
Now that's a meatgrinder.
>>27904254
Battle of Anzio was not a beach landing into the teeth of the enemy defenses like Normandie. It was a battle that took several months, which began with unopposed landings. The first real battles took place a week after everyone landed.
>Despite eventually winning US forces took far heavier losses for it than any beach in D-day.
No, the allied forces landed with casualties in low teens.
>All of the risks involved were in play.
Except for, you know, enemy resistance.
>>27901704
>implying
The Germans funneled all their reserves to repulse the Americans because they knew that they'd fight so much harder and were far more skilled and experienced than the Brits and everyone else.
>>27902847
That was planned
>>27902022
This anon gets it, the U.S. Decided that it would be better to bombard the land for only a few hours compared to the Brits and it didn't really weaken the defenses like it was supposed to. All the DD Tanks except two sunk before they could get to the beach because they were never tested in heavy seas. Only one tank made it off the beach I believe. We also didn't know that the Germans were moving a couple hundred experienced troops to Omaha, so we didn't send as many people as we should have.
Thankfully, America is fucking awesome and we still won.
>>27901704
>>27901654
Look the tl;dr version is that the allies battle strategy was basically, " let's bum rush these guys and at the very least we'll drown them in our blood"
>>27904775
How about you try to come up with a clever strategy for an amphibious landing on a country completely under enemy control?
>>27902581
Depends really. I know that is vague, but you'll pay a lot for a new one, I think they start at $1000~ , and a used one will be fairly close, but... You could get a used norinco for about $450. Or maybe more, that's what was told. Thing is, I definitely wouldn't buy either. There are simply much better rifles for that kind of money
>>27904634
>>27904634
Yet they were "on the beach" for several months and took heavy casualties for it. At least during D-day they broke through.
>>27904754
>The Germans funneled all their reserves to repulse the Americans because they knew that they'd fight so much harder and were far more skilled and experienced than the Brits and everyone else.
>Implying they weren't off trying to repel the Eastern Front advance
>>27904947
and this brings me back to my main point over D-day which they had to move off the beach that day.The entire landing would fail if they didn't like what almost happened at Anzio when they didn't get off the beachhead.
>>27904793
There's no such thing as a clever amphibious plan unless you are facing strategically incompetent forces like north Korea, where you can get away with stuff like incheon.
With enemies like the Germans and the japs, they were smart enough to figure out ideal landing areas and made sure that a plan was in place to counter the attacks. Even though we eventually won in the Pacific, the japs pretty much knew exactly what we were doing once the invasion fleet appeared on the island's horizon.
>>27904947
>>27905136
Your post is only barely English at this point, but I will venture and guess and say you are trying desperately to damage control your original retardation. What is especially amusing is that you apparently believe that the allied troops sat on the sand for months at Anzio.
>>27901654
Because the bombers overshot their objective at omaha beach.
>>27905641
4 months to be exact.
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/italy/articles/anzio.aspx
>When Gen. Lucas finally attempted a breakout on 31 January it was beaten back by the six available German divisions.
That was the first try.
>But Truscott wasn't able to work a miracle either. Three months later, he finally broke out just as the Gustav Line was being breached.
That was when they actually broke through.
One thing people actually don't realise about Omaha Beach-
Nobody wanted to land there
The Norman coast had several good areas to land, primarily Utah in the west and Gold in the east. Flat beaches, good tidal conditions, and enough room inland to act as marshalling points
The problem was you can't land two armies with a massive gap between them, since the Germans would roll up heavy armour in the middle then encircle each, one at a time. But the only place they could put a linking force was Omaha...
Then you get everything else anons have posted- misaimed opening bombardment, missed landings, no tanks, no air support. Though the use of raw recruits was on purpose - they're more likely to believe if they push forward and follow orders, they can live and win. Veterans have the advantages of experience, but that means less when a battle is mostly 'keep running before you get shot/shelled/drowned"
There are times ignorance can be useful
The Canadians at Juno had a more heavily defended beach, but it was better terrain for tanks. And they brought a shitload if Hobart's Funnies. Bunkers are a lot easier to clear with flamethrowers, demolishing guns, and just generally having moving cover
>>27902022
I remember seeing a bunker in Normandy which showed the battle damage from close naval fire support. They were both duking it out firing directly at each other at, basically point blank for artillery, and the ship was able to thread the needle and score a hit on the gun after tens of shots on the concrete.
>>27906098
I took pics there at Point Du Hoc
Wonder if an unlucky German was under a huge slab of concrete
>>27902902
>A few move safely through the bullet swarm to the beach, then find that they cannot hold there. They return to the water to use it for body cover. Faces turned upward, so that their nostrils are out of water, they creep toward the land at the same rate as the tide. That is how most of the survivors make it.
Damn...
>>27902847
That was deliberate; at high tide, the landing craft would have ripped their bottoms out on those beach obstacles.
>>27906216
Motherfuck... really? Mary, Joseph, and Jesus. Can you fucking imagine? Probably the only reason I am here writing this is because Great Grandpa got out of boot just in time to miss the landing.
>my grandpa survived the landing at Normandy on Omaha to see the end of the war and die at the age of 89
>I'm a burnout who's failed everything he's attempted (except for public school)
>wondering why I'm squandering my genetics after reading this thread
does any one else know this feel
>>27906388
So what's holding you back, fuck head?
>>27901654
5 mg positions bad the beach more than covered.
>5 of the worlds fastest mg all aim at whatever boat ramp drops. its a lot of bullets...
>>27906659
Myself
>>27906388
maybe your grandpa was just a lucky fuckup and not good
in that case you're not wasting anything
>>27906949
Anything keeping you from enlisting?
>>27905962
And yet 70 years onward
We have no tanks capable of amphibious landings
Haven't learnt much, I guess
>>27905604
Bullshit, when you have 1000+ miles of shore, you can't defend every part of it.
Feints also slow down their ability to react
Then it's just a matter of putting more troops & supplies than the enemy can muster.
>>27906974
Nah he earned a battlefield commission, a bronze star for blowing up a bridge after getting a wounded guy gettin his platoon off it, and he got a purple heart for getting shot with an MG42 in the gut
That last one was luck though. I'd scan the newspaper article about him and the guy he saved reuniting (for proofs) but it'd reveal my identity
>>27906982
Nothing permanent, I've got to get in shape and rehab my hand because I broke my pinky
>>27907012
we learned to not do amphibious landings instead
we now have air assault backed by precision airstrikes and that assumes we didn't already have people based nearby before whatever the hell we were doing in the first place. better to already be there with a foothold than to try to make one.
>>27907027
>we learned to not do amphibious landings instead
Not enlisted here.
What does the military use/need their amphibious landing craft for, then? They don't strategize using them?
>>27907027
>we now have air assault
Which will get hundreds of people killed when you run into manpads & air defenses.
"precision" airstrikes which is wildly overrated in ability, and really just amounts in outspending the enemy 10,000 to 1.
>>27907037
LORD Corporation - a global leader in highly reliable adhesives, coatings, motion management devices and sensing technologies - announced that Gen. James F. Amos, USMC, (ret.) has been appointed chairman of the LORD Corporation Board of Directors.
easy money
Then they build these 4 billion dollar helicopter carriers that can't even carry landing craft.
>>27907061
that would be an area you don't go by air. definitely don't go by sea either. go by ground which is what the last part was about. better off invading by ground via another country where you've had a bunch of shit stacked up or from your already established bases.
>>27907037
they went as far as to remove the well deck from the America class amphibious assault ships. they're more like helicopter and harrier carriers instead now. yeah, we have those hovercrafts, but we aren't really using them anymore
the only thing that went to plan was landing at h-hour
as others have mentioned, the aerial bombardment that was supposed to hit the shore 30 minutes before h-hour was instead dropped several miles inland. this was due to the heavy clouds, and the time-frame the air force had to work with. they did not want to drop the bombs on their own men, who were just miles off shore when they were to commence bombing.
the naval bombardment was also not entirely effective, the german strongpoints were well camouflaged,and even though the allies studied drawings of the coast extensively, the combination of the weather plus the relatively strong tide going east, made sure almost no ship ended up where it was supposed to.
almost no landing craft landed where it was supposed to. the original plan had been to advance up the draws, but it soon became obvious that this would be a near impossible task. instead, the allies figured out they would have to push up the bluffs, because they were much less defended.
any company that landed near any of the draws suffered a very high casualty rate, company A of 116th suffered over 2/3 after it landed in the first wave directly in front of the vierville draw, which was overlooked by 3 german pillboxes.
>>27907131
I believe they are adding well decks to the new America class ships
Because if they don't have em, might as well abolish the marine corps.
But what happens when the neighboring country doesn't allow the US to muster troops in em? Or doesn't have a deep water port?
Could the US even invade cuba?
>>27904754
Or they thought it was the weakest point. German soldiers in this time period didn't have a good opinion of us troops. Rome referee to them as 'The brits Italians '. Also the reason the battle of the bulge was directed at us lines and not brit, they thought the us more likely to break.
You have to remeber the US had taken part in few wars before ww2.
>>27907426
*romel refferd. Fuck spell check.
Nor meant as an attack with that post, just pointing out that the US was still in experianced and not rated at war by many during the period.
>>27901654
Heinrich Severloh
>>27907444
sweet. first time for trips in months.
He killed an estimated 1500-3000 by himself with a MG42 and was the last german fighting at Omaha.
>>27907458
that has to be bullshit. Who the fuck would mow down 2000 troops only to surrender the next fucking day? Sounds like whoever his buddies were died in their fighting positions while he ran like a coward, but somehow acted like a hero at first? Smells fishy.
>>27907475
He retreated after his position got zeroed in by a battleship and his bunker got destroyed. Went to a French village not far from Omaha and was taken out of the war by the Red Cross from my understanding that he was wounded.
I'd say he's a war hero for his country. He went through all of his bunkers 12,000 rounds and the next bunker over. MG42.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1848195/posts
It's amazing how the Allies gave 0 shits about their own men and commanded them into the slaughter. They did not learn from the first wave.
The dead do not know glory, only the generals who send men to their deaths get the hollow 'glory' that they 'deserve.'
>>27907515
>It's amazing how the Allies gave 0 shits about their own men and commanded them into the slaughter. They did not learn from the first wave.
Right, unlike Germany which always put the health and safety of its soldiers above everything.
>>27901878
Watching PR again son?
>>27907012
You can however defend every single place that a large force can land. Normandy was lightly defended compared to where British intelligence tricked the Germans into thinking the invasion would be.
>>27901658
>>27901821
>>27904754
Apologist bullshit. American high command was too proud to take advice from the British who had learned from the Dieppe raid. British offered the use of their amphibious tanks but American 'exceptionalism' meant that they thought they knew better. Link related, British planning which could have saved lives. Fucking yanks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobart's_Funnies
>>27907515
Are you retarded? How else do you take a heavily defended beach without taking casualties?
And its not 'Allies', only the Americans were stupid enough to not use the tanks designed to defeat beach defences.
>>27907809
Germans don't have to defend literally every inch of the coast, but there were still too many potential land spots for the 60 divisions that Germans had.
>>27907809
>You can however defend every single place that a large force can land.
At no time in any war does an enemy have millions of men sitting around, to garrison a fucking division on every beach.
With armored divisions sitting in reserve to immediately move to any landing.
The idea of amphibious landings being impossible is a fantasy invented because US military equipment is too expensive to go anywhere near the enemy.
>>27901654
Better question why didn't they just give all those guys shields? There was no cover on the beach and they just sent them out with none? Retarded.
>>27907887
No need to think about things like that m8
Think of their bravery and their sacrifice, never forget the 6 million who died on the beaches of normandy.
>>27907814
fuck you and fuck montgomery
>>27907887
Why didn't they use the testudo formation?
>>27906388
Murican here. Was taught that pizza and hamburgers contain ingredients from all the food groups, Paul Bunyan was in one of my history classes, and we had a legit penis inspection day.
School was retarded, people are in debt their entire life with a useless degree, the educational system is a pyramid scheme that relies on a regular and increasing flow of children.. kinda like welfare.
Don't feel bad, you didn't miss out on anything.
>>27907887
>give over encumbered soldiers even more gear
>>27904754
>inexperienced troops
>if they lose war their home country wouldn't be fucked
>>27907982
I think it only works if you are invading Britannia.
>>27904754
that's bullshit.
US regular forces were not held in high esteem by the germans, for good reasons. Fair enough, the airborne and rangers were seen as on par, or even better than the german units, but conscripted americans generally fought bad.
They did have something going for them though. The best logistics of any nation during WW2, and the best air force, made it possible to just shell/bomb the enemy into submission. Whenever US riflemen fought against german riflemen, the Germans generally came out on top. It didn't matter though, since the US had armor support and artillery, while germany had almost nothing on the western front.
>>27908182
Churchill AVRE for the fucking WIN!
290mm Spigot mortar, firing "flying dustbins" at the concrete casemates broke them open like a chestnut in a nutcracker.
Dieppe taught us Brits a lot and we used that to our advantage on D-Day, which is why we reached Pegasus Bridge so damned fast. The AVRE also had multiple uses, carrying a fascine/faggot using metal tubes and wood, the tubes to allow water through if it was a ditch, to prevent buildup and allow infantry to scamper across without getting stuck. The Bobbin, that laid out a metal road in front of the tank and allowed our armour to roll up to the sea wall. then they had the bridge layer, that popped it's bridge onto the sea wall then continued on as a regular AVRE (not talking about the specific bridge variant, but the simple box girder attachment).
Versatile engineering vehicle that the US said "Nah, we'll be fine wihtou... Oh shit OMAHA BEACH!!!!!"
Though as mentioned above, it didn't help that the Higgins boats and almost all of the landing craft were piloted by the USCG. It didn't help that the only Hobarts Funny taken was the DD and they got released too far out, were taken off course by heavy seas and either floundered due to both factors or ended out so far off course that they got fucked on the beach.
29th Infantry Division. Untested, green men. Like fucking Kaserine pass all over again. Good job that the Big Red One was on the fucking beach along with 9 companies of Rangers that should of been at Point Du Hoc, but got redirected due to them "not being needed" at the point.
Also, pic related, this motherfucker right here.
>>27901654
USN did not believe shore bombardment would make much difference and would alert the Gerries.
>>27901704
Like Wildcats and Brewster Buffalos? 1903 Springfields? Pennsylvania class dreadnoughts?
>>27908182
>and the best air force
German air force was already decimated by then
>>27908322
yes. one of the reasons why the germans feared the american bombers so much. They couldn't do much about them, and the yanks would call in bombers so the infantry wouldn't have to fight so much.
