SBR vs SMG
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You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
What are the pros and cons of SBRs and SMG?
Why would you choose one over the other?
What would be the best SBR for police swat use?
>>27900739
is round count or terminal performance more important?
you could carry an awful lot of 9mm compared to 5.56x45 y'know
but a 5.56x45 SBR is more effective than a 9mm SMG.
>>27900800
9mm and .223 weigh the same though, essentially.
>>27900806
well that sucks then, fuck 9mm
>>27900739
OP, for some reason AK's just don't look the same without some wear and tear.
>>27900739
>SBR
most of the power of a full length rifle with a shorter gun, better in a military setting as a vehicle gun
still has shorter sight radius so not quite as easy to shoot accurately with
>SMG
good for the popo because pistol rounds don't overpenetrate like a rifle, but it can be good to have a bullet hose for CQB situations they're more likely to encounter with a swat team
>>27900739
SMGs make more sense for police but that is about it.
>>27900839
Pistol rounds over penetrate more than rifle rounds can. Especially through drywall. Seriously, mk262 ammo in SBRs or DMRs is where its at.
Modern bullets change the game.
>super short barrel AR
>not 300BLK
why?
>>27900806
Mp5 mags are thinner than ar mags and you can fit like 3 in 1 ar pouch though
>>27900866
>Pistol rounds over penetrate more than rifle rounds can.
huh, really? even a frangible round? i always thought it was the opposite.
>>27900867
Because memeout is relatively expensive and .223 doesn't lose much performance in shorter barrels to matter, so you may as well have the shortest.
>>27900886
Frangible rounds are designed to break up against steel back plates of a range. Not people or drywall.
~75gr match .223 ammo will disintegrate when it travels through people or drywall.
Expanding pistol rounds will generally over penetrate little through people, but through drywall or thick clothing they tend to plug up, and act like ball ammo.
>>27900739
>SMG
Quieter
Suppressing makes it even quieterer
Less muzzle flash
Potentially more controllable (Round depending)
Potentially more concealable (Design depending)
Really I see smgs are more a niche thing, if you absolutely have to be the quietest firearmed mother fucker or conceal a machine pistol with a shitty fold out stock. It's long almost all its regular military application.
>SBR
Pretty much every other pro you can think of, better KE and transfer rate, useable at further distances, all while maintaining a package that's essentially most dedicated SMG size and controllability.
>>27900886
Depends largely on the pistol vs rifle round.
Full power rifle cartridge? Not so much, light, high velocity intermediate cartridges like 5.56 or 5.45? They'll have the tendency to yaw more quickly through barriers which leads to rapid destabilization.
Now, through a body? Unless you're using FMJ on the pistol rounds generally the intermediate rounds will overpenetrate, it's mostly what happens AFTER the overpenetration that decreases range of effectiveness on the other side.
>>27900922
>75gr match .223 ammo will disintegrate when it travels through people or drywall
Mmmm, gonna need to ask for a source on that one, everything I've seen with .223 through drywall is just destabilization, and I can provide sources if you'd like.
>>27900900
>SBRs
>SMGs
>complains about expensive
I see you're a poorfag who cant into NFA and reloading
>>27900932
Doctor Roberts aka DocGKR
>>27900952
Can you cite the article?
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/
This shows M193, a round notorious for rapid fragmentation, making it through 4 drywall panels while tumbling.
>>27900839
>good for the popo because pistol rounds don't overpenetrate like a rifle
When arguing the penetration a lot depends on arguing good vs bad penetration. For a long time SWAT teams kept an "MP5 Guy" even when transitioning to 5.56 carbines/SBRs for everyone else due to 9mm being more barrier blind when penetrating light cover and auto glass with less deviation.
More departments switching to bonded bullets and solid copper base changed that with the additional benefit of only having single styles of rifles then for maintenance and training.
If an officer misses with either an SMG or SBR that is a bad situation either way as both will go through enough interior walls to reach the other side of a house.
>>27900938
Hmm I have a budget of 3 grand.
I can get an sbr and 50000 rounds
Or an sbr and 25000>>27900938
>>27900969
I could, but not going to do the leg work.
And box of truth, while excellent anecdotal work is hardly citing anything.
>>27900989
Three grand wont get you full auto class 3 toys.
If you want semi auto, just put a stock on a glock and be done with it.
>mfw people actually get hung up about this stupid shit that will literally NEVER matter
things like the mk18 outperform subguns like the mp5, no questions asked. Still at the end of the day an mp5 will kill the shit out of you.
>mfw own an ar15 and will buy an sbr lower and an mp5 clone soon
Your faggot ass mosin nagant and sks is shit compared to every modern rifle, deal with it
>>27901000
>I could, but not going to do the leg work
Then I accept your defeat and have proven you wrong
>anecdotal
I don't think you know what that word means.
>>27901024
anecdotal
In this case, it means a very small sample in uncontrolled, non metered circumstances. While box of truth isnt pure garbage, it doesnt pass muster to be actual data.
What did you prove about mk262 ammo again?
>>27900969
yawing is what stops rounds short
5.45x39 SBR must be GOAT for police application (with some 7N6)
>>27901057
>In this case, it means a very small sample in uncontrolled, non metered circumstances
>In this case
No, it means a short story or personal account with lack of evidence and it has always meant this, this has evidence, you truly are a mormon.
>What did you prove about mk262 ammo again?
What did you?
>>27901066
What even lol?
>>27901066
You allegding that ballistic supremacy was achieved in 1974? yeah no
SBRed Zastava pups ftw
>>27900979
>>27900866
but isn't there a difference between penetrating within a building and going thru the building into a neighbors bedroom? I always assumed that was what the overpenetration argument was about.
>>27901090
So, to you, sample sizes as low as box of truth, dealing with rounds that im not even talking about, to you is hard data?
Sounds like a story, about something else, which your trying to apply to mk262. Sounds fucking anecdotal to me.
Bullpups
>>27901117
That's what the intelligent debate is about lol. Almost all rounds capable of reliably killing people will be exiting your house unless you got one of them fancy brick homes.
>>27901130
>sample sizes as low as box of truth
Not my only sample size, but if you're going to be useless and not do any legwork, I'll just one up you with a piece of evidence and gloat in victory. You come up with some magical piece of evidence, I'll top you again buddy boy.
Also please learn what anecdotal means, you're making yourself look grade A retarded.
>>27900739
> for police swat use
You only need .22LR to shoot someone's dog...
>>27900900
>223 doesn't lose much performance in a short barrel
Holy fuck.
the benefit of a pistol round is less flash and noise, desireable indoors if you want to both communicate and not destroy your ears with the pull of your trigger.
>>27900739
Can you fit the length of a rifle cartridge an a 10" barrel into the gun and don't mind the additional muzzle blast? Then go with an SBR. Otherwise go with an SMG. When you start going under a 10" barrel most rifle rounds start working like shit and the ones that do work well generally require special ammunition that's rather expensive to make.
>>27901611
It's perfectly acceptable performance for CQB out of a short barrel is probably what he meant to say.
>>27901611
It's true, the Mk262 Mod 1 will fragment out to 50 yards (95% of fighting in urban environments in wars takes place under 50 yards, for use outside of wars you are even less likely to have to shoot past 50 yards) when fired from a 10" barrel. There is no .300 Blackout ammunition that fragments from less than a 10" barrel that doesn't use expensive machined copper bullets that cost a couple dollars per round and expanding .300 Blackout performs similarly to expanding pistol ammunition. The only advantage .300 AAC Blackout has over pistol ammunition when fired from a short barrel is that it retains its velocity better and therefore has better terminal performance further away and a flatter trajectory, at the expense of having more recoil and heavier ammunition than a 9mm subgun or an SBR in 5.56.
>>27900839
>pistol rounds don't overpenetrate like a rifle
I'm so tired of retards spouting this.
>>27900739
When you say SBR, I assume you mean a system that shoots intermediate cartridges on up.
I spent a lot of money on a 300 blackout krinkov conversion with a gunsmith who I trust (he's actually really talented). It takes bulgarian 5.56 polymer ak mags. It suppresses well and is handy and accurate. It doesn't suppress as well as an SBR ar-15, but I don't get any of the gas-in-the-face like you get with ar-15s. Folding stock, aimpoint micro, flashlight. Folded it conceals under a baggy jacket reasonably well, fits in most bags easily, and fits in car foot wells easily too. I don't shoot it often because I dropped a lot of money on it, but I think it's my go-to gun if I had to get out of town and go "innawoods".
In my opinion, if you're willing to shoot 300 blackout or 5.45x39 (not velocity dependent for lethality like the 5.56, especially with left-over 7n6) then go for those.You can get good lethality with both rounds out of an SBR at ranges over 150m if you do your part.
If, for whatever reason, that ammo is hard to come by near you, or you want ammunition commonality with your pistol, or whatever the reason is. I say SMGs are a fine choice. They're a hoot to shoot also.
I think anything shorter than 12.5" on a 5.56 rifle or a .308 rifle is just silly. You basically restrict the reliable fragmentation range of the 5.56 to something like 90 yards and with the .308 you're getting 7.62x39 velocity so why not go that direction from the get-go?
SBR for police/swat? If you're doing entry type of stuff. An ar-15 SBR would be best. You can find em everywhere, 5.56 is a very common round, your ranges are going to be 15 yards or less so bullet velocity isn't as big an issue. It doesn't penetrate walls like 9mm or .45 will so its safer for the team and innocents.
You get less friction on the bullet while it's in the barrel so it will go further.
