Poland has just elected a new government that declared that as opposed to rest of EU it will not accept any immigrants. It also wants to increase our military budget. It will be at least 1 000 000 000 USD bigger, possibly 2-5 times more. I understand that it's not a lot compared to, say, USA, but it's a start for a country the size of one US state.
So, what's the best way to spend the money? Where do we lack the most? Here is our current loadout:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Armed_Forces
>>27895970
nukes
>>27895970
>So, what's the best way to spend the money?
Probably reinforcing your borders and investing in anti-armor and anti-air weapons and training to deter Russia.
>>27895970
a battalion of winged hussars
>>27895970
BUILD WALL
Nuclear submarines armed with tomahawk cruise missiles and a couple aircraft carriers would be nice to see.
Also modern attack helicopters like the AH1Z or Apaches and some A-10s and F-35s and mothballed B-1s. To protect airfields you should get a few battalions of Patriot PAC-3s and THAAD missile launchers. Also AWACs planes and some JLENs systems.
>>27896056
>most likely conventional threat is Russia, king of SP SAM and SPAAG
>buying A-10s
They aren't kamikazis, friendo
>>27895985
Can you even start your own nuke program these days without being shunned by international community and kicked out of the cool guys' playground?
>>27895987
Sounds sensible, I don't know if Russia will attack though - their modus operandi recently is reattaching ethnically Russian places, and there's just no such place in Poland. There's several times bigger German minority, and some of the states neighbouring Poland has become pretty right-winged and vocal about reclaiming the lands lost after the border treaty following WW2.
>>27896007
would be cool, but I fear useless in modern warfare
>>27896018
wall isn't really a solution. it won't dissuade state-sized adversary, and, well, the immigrants trying to cross the border without being welcome would have to deal with civilians, huge percentage of which is strongly against them coming to our country (afair the numbers were 44% against, 23% for, rest without strong feelings)
>>27895970
whatever you invest in, you cannot beat Russia's nukes. so your money's gonna be wasted anyway you look at it.
sorry but you'll never be a superpower. you rose too late in the game.
and Frau Merkel will make you take in refugees or she'll slap tariffs on you. there's no way to avoid it. you cannot be a part of EU and not take in refugees. it's impossible.
>>27895970
>increase our military budget
Money goes right to weapons contractors and lobbyists (mainly US based).
What actual physical product that you get for it is irrelevant; it'll be useless.
>>27896216
>it'll be useless.
>Give the rich man money for magic rocks that will keep tigers away. Rocks can also be used to hit brown children across the pond whenever the rich man tells you too.
Weren't Poland's highest causalities in the US led war in Iraq or Afghanistan mainly from US "friendly" fire?
Anyway, yeah, you could use the weapons to kill some Arabs, but not much more than that.
>>27896158
Isnt Poland an economic powerhouse now? The EU should apease them and let them run their own country
>>27896158
>>27896216
>>27896246
well, obviously I'm not implying that Poland will suddenly with GLORIOUS ONE BILLION US DORRARS become military superpower. I just want your opinion on what could use modernisation. For example I noticed that we don't have destroyers and only one submarine (and a diesel one at that).
I know that we have new gun incoming to substitute the Beryl rifle (picture related), and that we're looking into some attack choppers (Mangusta/Apache/Tiger are being looked at IIRC).
>>27895970
Modernize the navy, MSBS standard issue to all branches, imitate what Switzerland did in WW2, small military but efficient, become a unnecessary headache for the vatniks
Tear down soviet war memorials to make Putin heated
>>27896289
*one semi-modern submarine.
We have 5 in total, but 4 are from the 60s.
EU SJWS BTFO
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/11989250/EU-flag-burned-as-tens-of-thousands-join-Warsaw-nationalist-demo.html
realistically - Poland needs to replace the last of the Soviet era shit they have shitting around. then get everything else repaired and have spare parts to keep things working.
wishful thinking - nuclear submarines and SLBM with nuclear warheads.
OPolish /k/ommerade:
First ignore the calls for air craft carriers. It's just not in the cards nor needed for your situation, obviously. However there is certainly room for improvement at the naval level!
Anti-submarine warfare is something you should get good at. Get some good subs, even diesel ones. Make sure money goes to good training.
Get a cruise missile system that is pretty versatile, like the tomahawk, that way it can be used for numerous missions (anti ship, etc.). For a small budget that tends to be economical. If you could get some type of helicopter carrier, not unlike say the LCS (though it isn't a dedicated carrier) that may be ideal for your nation, allowing it to have some helicopters while the boat does something else (like be a missile platform or something).
Don't cheap out on training. Ever. Period. Invest in good ATGMs and counter-artillery battery technologies that let you easily find enemy artillery- the ruskies love their arty and tanks and APCs something fierce.
Fortify border units, particularly with good intelligence agents to reduce the likelihood that pro-Russian "volunteers" will be able to cross into your nation without you knowing.
There isn't much you could do if the ruskies decided to wreck you in a straight fight to the death. Lucky for you, you don't have to be able to match them tank for tank, jet for jet, and gun for gun to deter them. If you are just too much of a fortress they would likely not start shit.besides, America has stuff there, so you have big ally who CAN match them jet for jet, tank for tank, nuke for nuke, rifle for rifle.
>>27896381
This, Fortress Polonia
>>27896356
Well, I'm looking into that now, we seem to be getting subs (classed 'Orka' - Killer Whale), but they're going to be armed only in cruise missiles, no ICBMs.
Harden everything to do with wireless comms
Make more GROM
Update that air force and Air defenses, most of what I can see on the wiki is some pretty old shit. Intensify current modernization efforts, work on rapid-mobilization, start cranking out those Krab artillery pieces, and get something to replace those BMPs among other things.
>>27896587
Spelt AGAT wrong
Also
>FORMOSA
>NIL
>1PSK
>>27896381
I kind of disagree with you. Poland's greatest threats have been land-based. I would heavily bias their investments towards upgrading their land and air equipment, not navy.
Looks like Poland has some interesting future gear if the wiki is correct, it just has to get to work procuring them.
>>27896686
But anon their navy is heavily outdated, they don't need to focus on it but atleast put some effort to modernize
>>27896712
If you're on an island, you invest in your navy.
If you border Russia, you invest in nuclear weapons.
>>27896715
If you border Russia and are 1/10 the size you join NATO
Right now, the Polish military has four major areas that REQUIRE improvement.
The first is the replacement of the BMP-1. It hasn't been suitable for modern warfare for about 30 years.
Second, the acquisition of a high quality Integrated Air Defense System, and everything that pertains. Poland needs to deny its airspace to the Russians, and it could accomplish this through alternative means, such as strengthening the air force. However, I do not believe the Polish air force is survivable on the ground, and as such it will not be a major focus of investment, although new equipment is desperately needed there as well. As such, an effective IADS is a more survivable option.
Then, the Leopard 2 PL upgrade needs to roll out in order to bring Poland's armored force up to modern levels. Possibly acquire even more Leopard 2s to completely phase out T-72 variants from frontline use.
Finally, Poland needs UAVs. Not much to say about this.
Overall, obsolete equipment needs to be replaced. I don't expect an overall growth in the size of the military until said modernization is complete. I would rate the importance of the modernization as far higher than adding a new brigade.
Based Polan
While we are on the topic of immigrants, I am studying in the UK until December (American). Gonna do some travelling first week of December in Yurop. Any recommendations on where to go that I can get by with only speaking English and not getting blown up by Islamic Radicals?
Right now plans are Prague (maybe Poland?? How is it for no Polski though?) and making it to Normandy because reasons.
>>27895970
Based Poland, you guys are the best
I would say build ties directly with USA, bypass EU altogether
Ideally you could get America to base nukes on your soil, I will 100% write my congresscritters in support if you make the proposal.
WRT military, I'm hardly a strategic expert but one thing that is important is to motivate your forces, provide them with technical training, or the means to get said training, that will transfer over to civilian economy.
>>27896056
Dude, they can get most of those things with a billion dollars.
>>27896145
>>27895987
>deter Russia
Are you stupid or american? Our enemies are germans (germs). We don't even have peace treaty with then.
>>27898890
poland is very much american-friendly, I spoke very little polish and people were really excited to practice their english / cultural references with me.
>>27898992
Awesome. I would assume based on what I hear about the Czech Republic, Poland is pretty cheap too? But I speak literally zero Polish... still able to make it work? It seems like with western Europe at least, anyone under the age of 25 will speak if not fluent, plenty good English to help you out/have a conversation/chat up a girl at a bar etc.
>>27895970
training in combined arms warfare, and more training. wanna fight the Russians be more like them- don't focus on expeditionary COIN BS like the Georgians did or you'll get your shit pushed in.
>>27898988
>this is what you get for handing the polacks basically free modernized Mig 29s and selling them Leopard 2A4 for 100k euro each
>>27896145
>Can you even start your own nuke program these days without being shunned by international community and kicked out of the cool guys' playground?
No you can't as you signed the stupid non-proliferation treaty. The only thing you can do is overthrow your government, and make a new country. The treaty was signed by the old country, but not by the new one.
>>27895970
Just modernize your forces and get rid of all that ancient Russian shit.
>>27896056
Shut up moron, the US provides that shit. We need complimentary allies, not potential rivals.
>>27896056
Modern attack choppers will be bought, currently in contest: Apache, Viper, Tiger and turkshit.
>>27895970
Poland receives literally 50% of the EU spending budget for argicultural aidso your farmers don't starve to death and unemplyoment in Poland doesn't rise to 30-40%.
You are being cuked by your memespouting "leaders", you can't leave the EU or you will starve.
>>27899259
>you can't leave the EU or you will starve.
t. merkel
>>27899268
>Facts are bad ;(
As a German I am all for kicking Poland our of the EU, who do you think pays for your potato farmer's salaries?
We pump in billions just so you can pretend you are a more than a broken shithole dependant on my tax money.
Leave so we can spend those billions on worthy things.
>>27899272
*kicking Poland out of the EU
>>27899272
>As a German
lol, you can't make this shit up
>>27899272
Spend it on what? 1.5 million Muslim immigrants this year alone? Have fun Hans.
>>27899277
I know this is hard for a braindead retard like you, but google the EU budget and see for yourself how many billions we pay your ass each year.
Poland is the number 1 receiver of EU money.
You get more EU money than most other shitholes in the EU combined.
But please continue to pretend you are independant, it amuses me.
>will not accept any immigrants
kek
Polish are just like refugees.
millions of them went to UK to work cleaning toilets. There are more siema people in UK than niggers.
>>27899278
I rather spend 2 billion on 1 million brown people than 60 billion each year on a few thousand Polish farmers.
>>27896289
Poland has no need for a navy whatsoever. Get a few anti-sub vessels and ground/air based surface missiles, and spend the rest on what you actually need.
Whatever, I just want cheaper Beryl.
>>27898870
But haven't they been replacing their BMP-1's with Rosomaks/Patrias? Those are quite suitable for modern warfare as afghanistan has shown.
It's a shame that they didnt jump on the Dutch's offer for Leo 2's instead of Finland.
> yfw when Finland got ONE FUCKING HUNDRED LEO 2A6 FOR 200 MIL EUROS.
> yfw you have no face
>>27899351
Nah, command pretends that leo2a5 are sufficent. Which is retarded.
>>27899280
>not realizing that the only reason you guys give poland money is because of your eternal guilt for WW2
no need to be so mad friend we'll gladly take you germans in with open arms in about 50 years when you get outran by muzzies
>>27899282
That will teach you to invade a sovereign nation you had no business being in.
Polish farmers don't have terrorists hiding among them, unless you try to invade again.
>>27895970
I'd say continuing to move towards NATO equipment commonality.
What Poland needs is another plane crash
>>27896056
>A-10s
>Against a power with post 90s AA
>Patriots
>Below 10% success rate
We found the DoD astroturfer!
>>27896605
>$500 eotech
>on a $250 gun
>>27899450
Beryl costs like 1000 in the states though.
>>27899272
As a Pole I fully agree. The money goes to some binge drinking shithead because he mowed his fucking field this month. All the rest is wasted on unnecesary "courses" for staff(which are mainly "drinking vodka crash course 2k15") or company gifts. We WASTE almost all the shit we get. But a day will come (I'll be far away by then) when my fellow idiots realize there ain't no money left for them and that now it's their time to contribute to eu. It will end in the same way the greece thing ended.
Fuck I hate my country.
EU is failing as we speak, sure it will probably rot for another 50-70 years but at this point it's inevitable.
Warsaw Pact 2.0
Search your feelings, kurwas, you know it to be true.
>>27899371
>>27899392
>eternal guilt for WW2
Are you really that butthurt your economy is so shit you have to survive on our tax money?
Blame the Soviets for fucking it up for decades, we are just trying to keep this kindergarten called EU together.
>>27899482
Don't hate your country, hate your asshole leaders who fish for votes from retards claiming le boogeyman EU and le Germoney is their enemy when they beg for more cash every day.
All all while they shit on the refugees who cost a laughable fraction of the cash we pump into Poland's agriculture.
The hipocrisy stinks more than the wasted money.
>>27899364
but main difference between the two is that the 2a6 has the longer 55 cal gun which doesnt really matter unless you are gunning for killing T-90As but even then you have to have the DM-53 ammo to still make it happen.
>>27899309
spoken like a true moron
Poland has a lot of coastline. Poland gets hurt very badly if someone blockades its ports or something like that.
with that in mind, OP
> keep buying Leopards, but go to Israel to upgrade the battle management and add an APS
> get some decent AA missiles from France
> buy as many TOW-2 as you can afford
> go to the Swedes or the South Africans and beg for decent artillery
that's about it I'd think
>>27895970
Poland. Poland never changes
>>27898988
>member of NATO and EU
>enemy
Seriously?
What Poland really needs right now is better AA. Fortunately PAC-3 is on the way.
>>27899535
TOW-2 or they could get Milan's from the french if they are already buying AA missiles from them. Might even get a nice discount. That is if the TOW-2 isn't vastly superior to the Milan (i honestly don't know their capabilities, just know that they are both Anti tank weapons)
>>27896686
Russia likes to move subs to spy though. I'm not saying it has to be a huge component, but at least some modernization could be beneficial. But you are right, the land stuff is important.
>>27898988
Don't believe your media. It's good to be on the watch but we have enough other problems in Germany. Those who demand return of lost clay are slowly dying out. The young ones are just bantering loudmouths.
Plus most of areas of Eastern Germany - where this loudmouths prosper - are an economic disaster and slowly becoming uninhabited. Those who have the chance leave for the west. So no reason to acquire Lebensraum for our population.
I for once hope that Polish economy can bring a bit of prosperity into former Eastern Germany. There are some examples of that and hopefully it will gain momentum.
>>27895970
Most importantly don't buy foreign stuff where you can provide an adequate domestic solution. If not buy licenses to produce stuff. Only if this is not economically feasible - buy stuff.
>>27895970
With Polanballs's economy being a toothless tiger the last thing you should do is to buy expensive gear.
Also your government is nothing but a angry kid throwing a fit in the store for the right wing masses to cheer for.
Your country is being subsidized and kept afloat by EU money in the range of almost 100 billion € a year.
If you truley oppose the EU you should stop accepting that money first, but then you will enter a massive recession and spiral into a Greek-type financial crisis.
Your government knows this, you will never leave the EU, that is just propaganda for the masses.
>>27895970
Reminder that POLAND IS NOT YET LOST
I love you, Poland.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIDq7vDXpE0
>>27895970
You should get an actual air force.
>>27899281
>cleaning toilets
vs.
>blowing themselves up.
>>27899532
With American armor stationing in Poland, there's good chance they'll have access to M829A3 if shit really hits the fan.
One objectively great thing about beign American ally, is that they ALWAYS have more supplies with them, than they will ever need.
Nevermention L55 offers only 5% more velocity than L44 (1750m/s vs 1670m/s with DM53), which is why rest of NATO didn't bother to switch.
>>27896007
Just paint wings on your tanks and IFVs
>>27899715
Does Poland still have these? I really love idea of using old/cheap airframe and arming it to the teeth.
I believe replacing Saggers with Spikes would be a trival thing.
>>27899535
>>27899671
Poland already uses Rafael Spike missiles, and is 3rd largest user in EU, after Germany and Spain.
>>27896641
>Spelling FORMOZA wrong
>No JWK/TF50
Agat has done fucking nothing so far compared to GROM and JWK.
step up ya game
>>27899512
Thank you germoney for sponsoring my guns and ammo :3
>>27900058
Yes, but they are old and falling apart.
They will be replaced by french Caracals.
>>27899671
just get Spikes. Milan and TOW are the ideal ATGMs for Shtora-1's dazzlers. only ARENA-E and Afghanistan APS in Russian arsenal can deal with top attack and they are not in service.
>>27896289
nothing wrong with a diesel submarine
get 4 type 209 or 4 scorpéne and you are set
>>27895970
I think that buying UAVs for Aerial Surveillance would be a worthwhile investment.
>>27900305
you dont need much for a navy, as the polish coast is rather small
you could get a couple more upgraded surplus OHP
a few antisub corvettes
a few minehunters
and a tanker
the air force should replace all su22 with F16
it need tankers and an awacs
and the army should standardize the 120mm gun for the mbt
>>27895970
I'm pretty sure a whole bunch of Javelins would be pretty handy.
>>27895970
I'm glad to see that Poland is increasing their military.
A while ago I saw a video where everyone in Poland was super pro-USA because they thought we would step in and save them from any conflict with Russia. Really sad because we would either give no support or just use them as cannon fodder to buy time.
Its good that they're starting to take things into their own hands
>>27895970
Nuclear weapons and the infrastructure for second-strike capability. You're fucking retarded if you think building up conventional forces is going to let you defend yourself effectively against Russia.
>>27896336
>>mfw this gives me hope for humanity.
>>27898890
Went to Warsaw a few years ago, everyone speaks English and it's a very nice place
Let's see where to begin.
Land Forces:
>Kamizelka UKO Ballistic Vests and buy American ECH Combat Helmets for everyone
>Crank out the MSBS' and equip everyone
>Replace the PM-84 with B+T ACP9
>Replace SVD with M110 or MK. 20 SSR
>More Bor and Tor sniper rifles
>Buy M107A1's to compliment Tor's
>FR-15 and Glock 17 to replace all current sidearms
>Buy Minimi 5.56TR and Minimi 7.62TR to replace RPK and UKM-2000
>Replace Soviet HMG's with M2A1 or CIS .50MG
>Dedicated UBGL - Buy M203A1 or M320 for MSBS
>Buy Mini Spikes, AT-4CS, MBT LAW, FGM-148, Spike NLOS' to replace and import Anti-Tank systems
>Buy Mk. 47 Striker
>M224A3, M252A3, MO-RT-120 to replace current mortar system
>Buy FIM-92J Block 1 and FIM-92ASDM to supplement Grom and PIORUN MANPAD's
>Upgrade all Leo 2 to Leo 2PL Standard and get Iron Fist and Trophy APS
>Buy 200 more Leo 2PL
>200 CV90120T for Light Tank requirement
>200 CV90105 for Mobile Gun Support/Tank Destroyer
>700 Anders IFV to replace BWP
>800 CV90 Armadillo to replace MT-LB and BRDM-2
>Buy 300 more Rotamak M1M, upgrade all current Rotamok's to M1M and M3 standard
>Buy 1,500 Oshkosh L-ATV, 500 Oshkosh M-ATV, and 800 Nexter Aravis to replace utility vehicles
>2.500 RG-35 and 1,500 RG-41 for extended Util-Veh and dedicated APC and MRAP capabilities to further replace BWP's
>Jelcz to replace all current trucks
>Buy G7 for 105mm Howitzers
>M777 and M198 for 155mm Howitzers
>Replace current all current SPH with 200 Krab and 300 Kryl SPH
>200 HIMARS and 100 M270A1 for SP-MRLS'
>300 Moździerz RAK for SPMS
>300 Oshkosh M-ATV with Spike NLOS for SP-TD
>Buy 150 Loara SPAAG
>Supplement Loara's with 150 Mowag Skyranger and 150 LvKv 40
>Place priority on Narew, PAC-3, Homar for IADS
>300 Poprad with FIM-92J instead of Grom
>Buy 150 AH-64E for Attack Helicopter capabilities
>Request AH-64F, buy 150 more and have all AH-64E's upgraded to F standard
>Buy 300 UH-60M and 200 EC 725 for Utility Helicopters
>50 UAV's to begin with
1/3
You guys mention that Poland should step up its aerial game. Another noob question:
Our best fighter planes are, as far as I understand it:
-MiGs 29A and 29UB, 32 in total
-F16C bl 52+ and F16D bl 52+, 48 in total
I thought that those were outdated planes from the 70s. Are they worth anything in modern times?
>>27901058
Block 52 F-16s are fine for now, if a bit dated.
The real concern is the MiG-29As. They've got god-awful range and probably the worst cockpit of any modern fighter (unless the Poles have modified them). Best bet would be to replace the MiG-29s with something newer.
>>27901058
>>27901078
Yeah. The MiG-29s have to go. They have the shittiest range of any fighter jet. As for how to replace them, I'm biased towards the F-35.
>>27899351
>But haven't they been replacing their BMP-1's with Rosomaks/Patrias?
They won't be fully replaced. There will still be a number of BWP-1s in service.
Sigh. Back in the 60s my granddad used to fly MiG 21 and be a potential pain in the ass to any opposing forces (picture related, plane from his unit).
These days we're using outdated models of everything and playing catch-up.
>>27901052
2/3 Air Force:
>Buy 100 F-35C
>Upgrade all F-16 to F-16I Block 70 standard and buy 100 Rafale C to supplement
>150 F-15E for Attack
>200 JAS 39NG for Interceptors
>100 F-15SE for Bombers
>20 KC-135
>100 C-130E and 50 C-130J for Transports
>100 Alenia/Aermacchi M-346 Master for Trainer and Light Fighter/Attack
>200 UH-72 for Helicopters
3/3 Navy:
>1 licensed and Upgraded Cavour-class for Light Aircraft Carrier capabilities
>2 licensed Canberra-class for LHP/ASW
>2 or 3 licensed Ticonderoga-class Cruisers
>4 licensed Type 45 Anti-Air DDG
>4 licensed Horizon-class Multi-role/ASW DDG
>6 licensed FREMM-class FFG
>6 licensed Pohang-class Corvettes
>7 licensed Gowind-class LCS
>14 ÅšlÄ…zak-class OPV
>6 licensed Éridan-class MCM
>10 U-214 to replace Submarine force
>10 Auxiliaries
>70 F-35B, 30 V-22, 150 MH-60R, 10 P-8 Poseidon, 10 P-3 Orion
What does every think? That is $1.2 to $2.1 trillion over 30 Years to upgrade everything.
>>27901052
>>Kamizelka UKO Ballistic Vests and buy American ECH Combat Helmets for everyone
there is nothing wrong with wz.2005 helmet, which will replace remaining older types
>>Crank out the MSBS' and equip everyone
hah, they first need to phase out damn AKMS that are still in use by some units
>>Replace the PM-84 with B+T ACP9
plan is to replace those with bullpup MSBS
>>Replace SVD with M110 or MK. 20 SSR
army is currently prepairs for purchase of SVD replacements
>>FR-15 and Glock 17 to replace all current sidearms
PR-15 will replace current sidearms
>>Buy Minimi 5.56TR and Minimi 7.62TR to replace RPK and UKM-2000
UKM-2000 is perfectly adequate, will keep replacing PKMs, polish army does not have any RPKs to begin with
>>Dedicated UBGL - Buy M203A1 or M320 for MSBS
y, they designed dedcated 40mm granade launcher along with MSBS, they will use these
>>27901105
>>27901373
Purchase of F35 is considered, everyone is waiting for finished product, and money.
>>27901373
Frankly speaking, the Polish don't need a strong navy. They don't need LHDs, nor do they need carriers. In fact, those are just targets waiting to get destroyed if they're sitting in the Baltic when the Russians attack.
>>27896100
Honestly this. A-10's work great against enemies with poor AA support, but a few SPAAG's would tear a whole wing of them to shreds
>>27901373
yeah, all those equipment from the same manufacturer are going to be awesome on logistics
>>27901484
They need a decent navy to compete with the Russian Baltic Fleet and the ships sitting in Kaliningrad. LHD/LHP's could ease their problems with getting troops to NATO operations. I mainly put them there as Helicopter Carriers for ASW and ASh missions.
>>27901505
That is why I said licensed built. Poles can build them in Poland and equip them with their systems to ease logistics. That would increase your economy even more and get at lease 150,000 jobs over 30 years.
>>27901468
>they first need to phase out damn AKMS that are still in use by some units
When I asked why our company uses supposely phased out AKMS, when there is like 600 unused Beryls in armory, answer was: "because there's still fuckton of 7.62mm in storages". It seem just some of us are "lucky", to get stuck with shit gear, because someone has to use it up.
>>27896145
>ethnically russia
You know they artificially made more areas "ethnically russian"
Hell, most of east europe can be considered "ethnically russian" since the tzar and the soviet union forced everyone to learn russian and/or deported entire towns and moved in a full russian populace.
>>27901676
You could create a National Guard(US style) or Home Guard(Swedish/Norwegian/Estonian Style) and give all of the shitty Slavshit to them.
>>27901669
>They need a decent navy to compete with the Russian Baltic Fleet and the ships sitting in Kaliningrad
And that's where you're wrong. Poland does not gain anything from a strong navy. The better way to contest Russia is from the air or land based platforms. Less expensive and FAR less likely to be destroyed. As it stands, any Polish navy would not be survivable in such a situation. They'd be destroyed by land based aviation.
You have to understand the security environment. Don't add a navy just because, think about why they'd want a navy and what purpose such a navy would have. Once you do, you'll realize that Poland is not ever going to be a naval power.
>>27899281
>millions of them went to UK to work cleaning toilets. There are more siema
At the jobs I've been at Eastern Europeans work way harder and study harder than us native UK peeps. It's the immigrant effect.
UKIP claiming "immigrants steal jobs" just means "Immigrants are better educated, more motivated and despite being worse at english and being an immigrant, they still outperform UK people at interviews"
>>27901712
They do not need to be a Naval Power. They need enough ships to secure 328 mile/528 kilometer long Coast Line and be active enough in the Baltic to secure their 200nm EEZ.
>>27896056
>mothballed B-1s
strategic bombers aren't exactly great idea if most of your country is within range of enemy SRBMs.
Those thing can't land/start from emergency airstips or highways.
Poland is buying JASSM-ER instead for long range attacks. Russia was flipping over that last year. I can understand that. Semi-stealthy cruise missile with over 600 miles range is no joke for a country which defences rely so heavily on radar network. Now take possibility of them launching from Ukrainian airspace, and things get little sticky
>>27901756
And they don't need large ships to do it. Airpower and land based missiles are more than enough when combined with frigates and corvettes. They do not need aircraft carriers. They do not need LHDs. Hell, the only purpose of those is to do things that can already be done from shore. Worse, the ships out there are LESS SURVIVABLE, something you can't get into your bloody head.
>>27901052
But anon Anders Project is kill
>>27901779
Why was Kaliningrad never split up between Lithuania and Poland during the break up of the USSR? I have never understood that.
>>27901867
I understand that. They need some kind of ship dedicated to finding and dealing with Russian Subs if not helicopter carriers. Land and Air systems only cover so much before you need a sea based system.
>>27901911
When Anders kill? I did not know that. Bummer.
>>27899281
Notice how we got rid of the people unwilling to educate themselves and work hard in Poland. They went to countries with better social support (why earn for your kid when you can go to UK and get benefits for just having it being born there).
Sure, we export some good technical minds which is a loss, but that's becoming less and less of a problem, now that our IT industry slowly stops being cheap labour and starts being productive in our own right (see games in particular). For example: I've been living in UK, and in Germany, but I've returned and now I outsource my work to companies from around the world, but I live in Poland, pay taxes here, and raise my kids here.
So yes, while I'm generalising (I've been living in Scotland and Wales to try and struck out on my own as opposed to mooching off my parents, there are more people like that), the majority of Polish people I've encountered in UK are lowest classes, looking for easiest way to get by. The more of them move out, the better our country becomes.
Obviously no Poles in here, just a big ol KKK circle jerk
The Polish government is against the free flow of refugees to Europe without checking them. Poland WILL accept the refugees. The quote is some opposition politician.
>>27901917
don't we have sub-killer frigates?
This shit looks cool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbQEZlr5E2s
>>27901917
This is one of those cases where just a few frigates and corvettes would do the job well, as would a few P-8s. You know how many submarines there are in the Russian Baltic Fleet? It's not many, and for a damn good reason. The Russians don't want to have their fleet stuck in the Baltic Sea in the event of a war, as it would be effectively useless.
>>27901942
See
>>27896336
No one will hire them, everyone in Poland despises Muslims/anyone
>>27896007
Get Boston Dynamics to produce horse sized flame proof version robots and role each of them with either flammen werfers, Javelins and M79's with buckshot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8YjvHYbZ9w
Imagine a thousands of these sprinting 60mph at you with flammen werfers.
>>27901917
If they are at war with Russia, the whole NATO is.
There are other countries that can deal with a rusty fleet with soviet tech. What they need is to prepare for some burned land strategy, a lot of hidden command center and supplying caches, large quantities of armored vehicles, and of course, a lot of manpower.
Relying on conscription to have 20% of your population able to fight seem like what you need.
>>27896733
Russia still needs to invade them 40 to 1
Build stealth MBT's shit on Putin's agenda to build the USSR 2.0 march Polish troops down Red Square
>>27901987
Poland can call up 635,000 Personnel in case of War. 15,583,917, aged 15–49 are fit for Military Service.
I was in a cross NATO exercise in Poland earlier this year, you polacks just need to get a modernized army.
And seriously:
>Russia has the economy of Italy, at best. And it's collapsing
>NATO have 3,4 Million soldiers, compared to Russias 845 000, the majority being conscripts.
>Russian defence budget is a ninth of the pentagons.
Don't make putin more of a threat than he is, he has nukes and has a small professionalized force, the ones who annexed crimea are the best they got, the rest are amateurs.
He's got nukes, that's about it.
What does Polan need?
>IADS--radars and PAC-3 or NASAMS plus some kinda modern point defense. Maybe Avenger and/or Starstreak. Really Pantsir would be ideal but obviously that's not an option
>more multi role aircraft. F-16E/F or F-15SE would be ideal. Replace Mig-29s, increase A2A capability while also being able to throw a shitload of standoff munitions at Ivan's columns
>also buy those standoff munitions
>replace T-72s & BMP-1s. More Leopards from the Euroclucks would be acceptable and more Roosmak.
>HIMARS + MGM-104 ATACMS to put big booms on Ivan's critical infrastructure inside Kalinigrad even if your Air Force can't quite get off the ground
>Hardened, camouflaged, redundant C&C/pre-positioned logistics facilities
And that's it. Implement over a decade. Btw I really like the Home guard program you guys have
>>27901987
Well, while we love NATO and highly welcome it, we kinda have bad experience with alliances. See World War 2. So it would be cool to be as independent as possible.
Maybe not big enough to threaten Russia (not that I ever believe we'll be that huge ever again), but powerful enough to make them not want to attack, as it would just be war without profit.
Seems like the best thing that's been suggested repeatedly is to get thing standardised, ditching the old soviet gear and going with modern replacements.
Keep up the training quality and as long as the gear isn't going to be causing additional problems of it's own (even for just making the supply situation far more complex than it should be) Poland will be fine given the problems with pretty much all it's neighbours have with the basic soldier quality part.
Another alternative to ramping up the fleet is to make sure of the quality of the land-based road and rail systems between Poland and it's allies. It's not a particularly sexy option but having lots of good transport links is going to help in all sorts of ways, particularly in speeding up getting allied nations to your fronts, moving reserves around and making sure supply lines are harder to interdict because there'll be more good options for routes. Plus it usually helps the civilian economy at the same time.
>>27896007
This is legit. They have heavy missile armor, so missiles will not damage them and they can just trample infantry under hoof.
>>27901987
I am sure there is a way to transform Warsaw into some sort of Stalingrad.
>>27902025
Oh shit, yeah I forgot
-also replace Su-22s with multirole fighters
-also get some drones that can hunt Ivan's grad launchers. 1 cheaper and more numerous unarmed scout variant, one armed variant with Hellfires
Can MiG 29A be modernised enough to make it a viable fighter, or is it too outdated and the base just isn't there?
Guys, I just have a boner for the PT-91 Twardy. Are those viable in a future fight with Russia? Can Polan build more of them?
>>27902037
I think airframe fatigue is the main problem
>>27902009
15 fucking million militiamen holding place they know should be enough to stop the whole Russian army.
The RAF and Armee de l'air can keep the Russian airforce at ground, so it will not be a problem.
>>27902029
This time, the whole Europe will be united against Russia.
All this talk about Russia but what about Germany and the other Islamist states near it?
What does Poland need to be capable of blitzing Germany? or can it already?
>>27902062
>>>/memes/
>>27902062
Given the state of the German military, Poland probably already could win a one-on-one fight with Germany.
>>27902110
>>27902062
All Germany needs to do is stop putting money into the EU and Poland will starve.
Paying Poland subsidaries is by far the greatest spending point on the EU budget.
Armies march on their stomachs.
>>27902062
Poland would shrek Germany but if anything Poland would help Germany in a German Civil War with Islam vs aryans
>>27901373
So many different fighters.
Yeah, would be better off sticking with just two. And just scrap grippens alltogether, keep the fighter training inside of NATO.
>>27896381
Fucking this. Russia loves arty and mech support.
>>27902046
It's not complete junk like T-72, but nowhere near NATO big 3, or even T-90.
It's fairy modern (more modern than most Russian), but undergunned and severly underarmored, since base vehicle is from early 80's.
I'd say something it's like Israeli Magach tanks: it's good modernization, good enough for majority of jobs expected from a tank on modern battlefield, but that doesn't change fact that tank itself is plain obsolete, and is not up to most demanding tasks, like tank-to-tank battles.
How serviceable are Polands Mig-29s, do they need replacing?
>>27902058
they can't even unite aganist kebab
>>27902187
The enemy in on our side of the gate. This is not the case with the Russian.
Does Poland still have conscription?
>>27902149
I guess, I could replace the JAS 39 with the EF-2000 or more Rafale C's and the CV9035 for the Anders IFV.
>700 CV9035*
>48 F-16I Block 70, replace with 30 more F-35C, Rafale C or EF-200 when the air frames wear out
>100 F-35C
>250 Rafale C
>200 EF-2000 Tranche 2 Block 20
>100 F-15SE
>20 KC-135
>150 C-130J
>100 M-346
>200 UH-72
>>27898890
Make sure you have a fuck buddy when visiting Prague. Something about cheap four star hotels, cheaper five star restaurants, and sexy gothic architecture that always leads to making sweet sweet lovin. I NEVER failed to get laid when I took a grill to Prague.
>>27896289
>on what could use modernisation
If you're a polfag, than you know, first thing we have to do, is kick THE FUCK OUT the fucking post-soviet generals, and all their offspring, which we call in Poland "backpacks", because they make career in the military by being carried on by their daddies the generals.
Only then can we start to think about modernizing our armed forces.
>>27902253
>That glorious Pantera camo
>>27902235
>700 CV9035..
Spent two years in the back of a cv9030..I creamed
>>27899512
>Ignores the reference to terrorists.
Keep your head in the sand, Hans, makes accessing your boipussy easier for Ahmed.
>>27902287
>Glorious Polish LEO 2PL and CV9035PL charging at Russian Forces with Wings on the Antennas
>Winged Hussars are reborn
>>27900121
They don't have Spike NLOS as far as I know...
>>27898912
In the 60s Nike program WestGermany would sometimes own the vehicle, and the U.S. would furnish the Warheads. The benefits are that you could have nukes without actually investing in a nuclear program. The downside is, you are America's bitch. The U.S. had a team of conscripts to blow the German's missle up if things didnt go well. My boss spent his draft period doing that instead of Vietnam. Had great stories of him and a few other drunken American teenagers doing drills in front of german guard shacks. Imagine the look on your face when you share a peostitute with an an American soldier the night before, and he's hooking det cord to explosives with a quarter mile kill zone a few hundred feet away.
>>27899281
>working hard doing a skilled, dirty, thankless job bongkeks are too effeminate and prissy to do themselves
vs
>mooching benefits, pumping out anchor babies, killing native and disrespecting their traditions, all while demanding the native population give them special privileges and apologize for existing
hmmm...
>>27902047
I do not think Poland has 15,000,000 small arms to equip everyone. They might have to take the "Enemy At The Gates" approach.
>>27901917
>Why was Kaliningrad never split up between Lithuania and Poland during the break up of the USSR
The USSR was technically a federation of member republics, and Kaliningrad Oblast was a part of Russia specifically, as well as mostly populated by Russians after Ostpreußen was kicked out and Königsberg was leveled.
>>27895970
>Where do we lack the most?
Training and numbers.
>>27899281
As an American, I don't understand why people bitch about Polish immigrants.
We took in a shitload of them, they're great.
>>27902462
Because western Europeans want to feel that they are better, due to the fact that they have more money, for they warent occupied by soviets for 45 years.
Quite sad really.
>>27902421
What is your opinion on mexicans?
>>27902398
They don't have Spike NLOS, but they do have Spike missiles. You know that it's a whole family of missiles, right?
>>27899537
>believing in German propaganda
Charges with sabres/lances against tanks are a myth, they used anti tank weapons.
>>27902462
They're Europes Mexicans essentially, and in particular in the UK because they don't like the frogs or krauts any more than we do, and apparently everywhere else is either colder or has a shittier economy than Poland.
Sure some are fine, and can be usefull doing the shit jobs for no money, but a hell of a lot more than a few are here. Forget all the 'lol britain so snakbar' shitposting, I hear Polish spoken more than any other language in public, including English.
>>27902025
Fuck HIMARS. Use the M270. HIMARS are nice because they can be air transported, which is what the US needs, but if they want a tip of the spear artillery system that is mainly going to be operated from inside their country, go for the M270.
>>27902545
Can M270 fire the MGM104 ATACMS though
>>27902583
It can fire two of them.
>>27902058
Western Europe would fight to the last Pole and then peace out
>>27902398
They have Spike-LR which overperforms both TOW-2 and Milan ER in every possible way
>>27904823
>Spike-LR
4km range
>wireless TOW
7km+ range
>>27904980
but anon TOW is LOS and we know there are very few places on europe with more than 5 km deep unobstructed FOV. not to mention indirect fire capability means that practically you have more reach on the battlefield ie behind hills or buildings where TOW is useless. then there is the very real disadvantage of TOW being highly susceptible against Shtora-1 dazzlers.
>>27904980
What a small warhead on the javalin
>>27905499
>but anon TOW is LOS and we know there are very few places on europe with more than 5 km deep unobstructed FOV
Which would still give wireless TOW the advantage.
>not to mention indirect fire capability means that practically you have more reach on the battlefield ie behind hills or buildings where TOW is useless
Spike-ER is not Spike-NLOS.
>then there is the very real disadvantage of TOW being highly susceptible against Shtora-1 dazzlers
>what are IR/UV lamps
>>27905567
Javelin is top-attack so doesn't need such a big warhead to get through masses of armour and ERA since tanks are still thinly armoured on top, with plenty of spaces that can't be armoured up or coated with ERA like hatches and engine vents.
>>27902498
not him but; integrate them and you won't have anything to worry about. Just make sure they know English more than Spanish. Oh and spread them out so they don't create cultural ghettos and never integrate.
Small communities are ok, but when you have whole cities that are mainly hispanic, of course they are gonna behave like hispanics
Source: whitewash chilean
>>27896336
Where can I get one of those stylish beanies
>>27898870
>I do not believe the Polish air force is survivable on the ground
Like you said, IADS out the ass. And drones. Drones for days.
>>27899272
>so we can spend those billions on worthy things.
More refugee housing. More mosques. You know, worthy things.
Let me know how that works out for you.
>>27895970
Russian here.
If you guys start to act more independent, it will be better for all of us, the only reason we are in bad terms is because you have been sucking German and US cock for the last near 30 years.
Remember, fuck NATO.
>>27895970
> but it's a start for a country the size of one US state.
I didnt know Poland had a population as big California.
>>27907036
>the only reason
Theres alot more than one reason, Boris
>>27899535
poland is never going to be able to contest blockaded ports by any major power
So whats the fucking point?
Buy some anti-ship missiles and call it a day.
>>27906373
>integrate them and you won't have anything to worry about.
Yea because mexico and south america are fucking paradises
Only reason chile isn't a bankrupt socialist hellhole like venezuela is because the US gave you pinochet, desu
Gimme dat delishous CHF nitrided beryl barrel
>>27907129
I'm not living in Chile, I'm in Canada, I'm talking bout immigrants not native latinos
>>27907036
ryusia dindu nuffin ta polan
>>27907583
Dey was gud bois, gettin dey lives togehduh
>>27896056
>implying carriers aren't multi billions
>>27904980
>wireless TOW
>7km+ range
source? All I've read so far says up to 4500m. It's not much improvement, definitely not enough to outweight TOW beign SACLOS, when Spike is Fire & Forget
>>27896258
>Isnt Poland an economic powerhouse now?
Are you retarded?
MSBS when?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD6U3KZAWUI
>>27902186
Yees, they need to be replaced.
They are old, unreliable and can't use modern missiles.
>>27899253
attack choppers are more or less useless vs a real enemy
Better off just buying more tanks and ATGM's
>>27908625
It is also pretty hard to hit a TOW that far if the target is even a bit concealed. The missile doesn't exactly fly laser straight.
Maybe the top attack variant would fare better since it flies over the target line.
>>27905499
>then there is the very real disadvantage of TOW being highly susceptible against Shtora-1 dazzlers.
TOW-2 has hardening against that.
>>27908625
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarfareintl/tow-capabilities-enhanced/
>Raytheon reported that during the test, the developmental propulsion system flew the missile more than seven kilometres (4.35 miles), reaching four kilometres (2.5 miles) in significantly less time
Twice the range is a significant improvement.
>>27895970
Just stopped by to say you guys are fuckin based.
B A S E D
A
S
E
D
>>27898890
go to Norway, Sweden or Denmark, then get the fuck out of the capital of those countries and into the real country.
>>27906898
Even with a significant IADS, I do not believe their air force is survivable on the ground. Russia use too many SSMs for that to be the case.
>>27895970
best way to spend the new budget? Assassinate that god damn cunt that was made minister of defense.
>>27901921
All the poles i've seen working here in Norway seem to be pretty hard working and well integrated people.
If these people are your lazy citizens, Poland will be a greater economy than France and Britain in no time.
My impression of them are not the brightest of people, but damn good people nevertheless. If Poland goes to war, i'll fucking join them.
>Refugees arrive in germany......they find out its poland and they are stuck there.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9fe_1447779658
kek. Tell me this is fake. What a move
>>27895970
MSBS RIFLES FOR EVERYONE
CRANK OUT PRODUCTION
THEN PROFIT BY MAKING COPIES FOR THE U.S.
CAN'T WAIT
>>27909674
>Raytheon reported that during the test, the developmental propulsion system flew the missile more than seven kilometres (4.35 miles), reaching four kilometres (2.5 miles) in significantly less time.
>the developmental propulsion
why would you even bring system not fielded yet into discussion?
>be Russian
>walk in thread
>ctrl+g
>Russ
>49 matches
nah, it's not even funny anymore
>>27896710
I like the look of that plate carrier...
>>27910475
>why would you even bring system not fielded yet into discussion?
Look at the date of the test, and then look up when wireless TOWs have been purchased.
