ELECTRICAL INGNITION
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You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
why has electrical ignition not taken off comercially?
out of the modern inventions in design, (caseless, helical/p90 mags, post-burst recoil, etc)
it seems the simplest to introduce
two goddamn a4 batteries, ou could even house them in a conventional bolt for the benefit of interchangability
imagine a rifle that had two bolts, one with a spring and another with a battery
you could fire electrically ignited rounds of the same dimensions or regular rounds; bypassing the commercial issue of proprietry cartriges
perhaps you could even fire standard rounds electrically
benefits:
no trigger pull, at all; push button firing
this means you wouldn't even need a trigger, the button could be next to the magazine or further up so you could use your off-hand
just put it wherever you want
increased accuracy because your hand isn't moving so much when you fire and isn't under tension
no "hang" between trigger pull and firing, again this simply improves accuracy and reduces the time you have to be "on target" when firing
general weight reduction, no need for springs
change what would be the trigger pull without tools
space saved in handguns, no need for an external/internal hammer, nothing to snag or fuck up
WHY IS IT NOT A THING?
a lot of autocannons are already electrically-fired.
pic is the voere vec-91
it uses caseless ammo AND electrical ignition
most of the benefits are lost with a bolt action, where ejection and ROF arn't issues
but imagine a P90 with caseless ammo, and electrical ignition
no shells to eject, no ejection system
>>30569960
indeed, and I think that is largely due to interchangeability not being nearly so much of factor
if you only have one weapon chambered in a caliber, it doesn't really matter if it's conventional or not from a logistic point of view
benefits in weight reduction are exponencial as the size of the round increases, which Ithink is a big factor driving the trend
not to mention their direct compatibility with computer systems, just plug a wire into them and fire them from behind cover
I wouldn't be at all surprised if electrical ignition became standard in all artillery, aircraft and mounted weapons
>>30569951
E'gnition systems would need to be able to work on regular bullets to take hold in the civilian market.
>>30569966
but then the ejection port's only use would be for sticking your dick in it.
>>30570139
>but then the ejection port's only use would be for sticking your dick in it.
Yes, and?
I vaugly remember a company making an electric trigger aimed at long distance and precision shooters but can't find the video though.
>>30570139
>E'gnition systems would need to be able to work on regular bullets to take hold in the civilian market.
I wonder if a good zap on the primer would set a cartridge off.
>>30569951
>this means you wouldn't even need a trigger, the button could be next to the magazine or further up so you could use your off-hand
Wouldn't that be extremely awkward to use and actually dangerous as fuck?
>>30570139
They did and still failed.
>>30570968
I should add, Remington Etronx was a line of rifles and ammunition, and were not compatible with normal percussive primers. That said, it was possible to convert a traditional rifle to accept ammunition loaded using Etronx primers.
The whole thing failed by 2003 due to cost, availability, and generally being worse than a mechanical firing system in most ways.
>>30570968
>implying that if they sold those primers in lready to go boxes of fuddy five and 9mm limpy you asshats wouldn't be all over that instead of just letting the anal-lingus reloaders just have at it.
>>30571104
They sold production 22-250 (terrible accuracy due to poor dimensioning), 220 Swift, and 243Win.
Cost was high, performance was average, and the system didn't work well in the cold.
On another note, I can also say that igniting caseless ammunition with compressed air sucks too.
I thought electronic triggers were illegal because of those benefits you guys are listing
>>30571104
why is he slapping her with a VHS tape?
>>30570939
Nope. If you look at the electric primers they are insulated so as to have one path for electricity to take through the primer. Conventional primers don't and won't heat up like needed to set off the primer's contents.
>>30569951
I'd want some sort of circuit test for the primer. Just so I know if I've got a dirty contact.
>>30569951
The biggest advantage of the system would be for caseless ammo, however it's not very popular so the market would be very small for it.
For army use - while the reliability of such weapon would be definitely improved(less moving parts) the biggest problems with it(shit feeding jamming the whole thing) are unrelated to ignition mechanisms, so the gain isn't that big and you have to carry and supply the troops with batteries - vehicles with their own power supplies that hold battery anyway use electrical ignition because it's not a problem for it, but for grunts issuing them with battery specifically for firing guns is asking for logistical headache.
The firing mechanisms in most weapons on the market are more than "reliable enough" to make most users who would be interested in electrical ignition unwilling to do so, since I'd rather have a fully mechanical action that doesn't work once in 20 years rather than having it electrical(partially) and run out of battery(for example because of current leakage) when I need it.
>>30571389
Because Betamax didn't catch on commercially.
>>30569966
you always need an extractor and ejector. What happens when you want to unload a round, clear a weapon, or clear malfunction?
>>30569966
No ejection means heat builds up a lot faster.
>>30571389
What else are they good for now. I use floppy disks as costers and CDs as bagel plates. Though a shield9 will fit ina VCR
>>30571058
I didn't realize, will research.
"Ammo for the EtronX rifle is available in .220 Swift, .22-250 Rem. and .24"
and it cost 2k for a single rifle
seems to me like Remington made it as a gimmick gun, and deliberately ensured it wouldn't compete with their other products
and again it's a bolt action, where the advantages are much less than a semi-auto
if you could hand-load electric cartridges in 5.56 and your AR had an electric trigger how great would that be
and looking at the remington ammo it was bassically just swapping the impact primer for a conductive one, so base cost wouldn't be that high if you made an effort to manafacture them seriously
>>30572374
you would just make a dummy bullet for testing
>>30572498
maybe the gain wouldn't be that great vs. the logistics
but let me just put it out there that caseless rounds can weight a third less than regular ones
soldiers carry a LOT of rounds
also these systems can use regualar ol' a4 batteries if you wanted to go down that path, and changing them over in a firefight would take 10 seconds
other miscellaneous advantages include the gun having no noise from the trigger group while fired, so a heavily suppressed weapon would be even quieter
>>30573074
I'm almost tempted to say that as reliability increases, and caseless reduced ammunition variables the importance of being able to clear a malfunction swiftly decreases
sure nobody wants their shit to jam at a critical moment, but in the bigger picture a commander might prefer the weight reduction to the slim chance of a poorly timed malfunction for one guy
also the G11 has a function to clear the action of a jammed/dud round
at that point you don't save weight, however the mechanism is used only fof duds, not for every freaking round; so there is a service life improvement
>>30573928
that is conventional wisdom, but it only becomes relevant when weapons are used for sustained/auto fire
if you added a cooling system to the rifle, it would probably be more effective than relying on bits of brass
>>30569951
Triggers are already fine and don't need batteries that die when you need them.
>>30569951
Seems needlessly complicated to me. There is a reason firearm design hasn't changed all that much in their existence. Also, is a trigger a bad thing? Seems to me like if there was something better we could do it with standard mechanisms.
>>30576393
Soldiers clear their rifles every time they come back from patrol. They don't fire them every time they go on patrol. Not even close.
You NEED a functioning ejection system or the military WILL NOT buy your gun. Period.
The weight savings would be offset by the battery. Also it would be trivial to add a recharging mechanism that uses the bolt's movement, batteries would only need to be replaced after a couple years when they kick the bucket
One possible feature (of questionable utility) is adjustable rate of fire. The Parker Hale PDW tried this, and recently some company made an electric AR-15 trigger that could do arbitrary bursts lengths and rates of fire.
>>30576393
>if you added a cooling system to the rifle, it would probably be more effective than relying on bits of brass
air going down the bore is incredible at cooling. If somebody could do that without sucking dust into the gun or clogging air filters it'd greatly improve rate of fire for machine guns
>>30576503
no, trigger groups are needlessly complicated
we're just used to them
simple reason is that they were invented before electricity and batteries
>>30576454
>batteries that die when you need them
rubish, I heard 2 a4 batteries can fire 5000 rounds
you would just change them daily/weekly as needed
and triggers are standard, but still cause mechanical hang when firing each round, they contribute to general inaccuracy to some extent
weight saving would be 50/50, ooner or later we will get batteries more effectie than lithium
and electric ignition would make all guns drop safe, you could pre-progrm your bust rate/ROF like you say
maybe the bolt could even incorporate a coil to generate power when you fire, ther eis enough chemical/het energy in the round to make it feesable (maybe like you say it's just over-ompliction
>>30576600
neat idea
>>30571275
LOL, neat to see someone else posting that.
My wife has 3 Daisy VL rifles. Two are unfired, one is the plastic stock one and one is the deluxe with a wood stock.
I managed to find two unopened cases of 5,000 rounds each. Not that I plan on firing these, but it's fun to still have the rare ammo too.
>>30569951
Cost and perceived reliability
>>30576694
>neat idea
I totally stole the idea. Competition shooters have them to cool their guns between matches. I just thought though, if you wanted a powerful one for cooling an MG you'd need batteries, and those might weight as much as a spare barrel. Maybe something integrated would work better. Like when the bolt cycles it forces air through the barrel.
>>30569951
Because electronic triggers are considered a machine gun or something similar.
Fucking sucks because it's a neat concept.
>>30576183
It was almost entirely a gimmick, despite the apparently large investment Remington made into the technology. They seem to have considered it viable at some time, though the whole thing was sort of silly.
As it is, percussive primers and mechanical triggers are a solid technology. I can buy primers for 1.86cpr and a low end trigger for $40 or possibly less if I decide to drop any expectations.
In the end, there was little gained with the Etronx system, even in the context of accuracy, which was supposed to be its biggest selling point.
I am not saying that electronic ignition is a bad idea, but it is just unnecessary for small arms. It won't be successful until it offers a sufficient advantage over percussive systems.
>>30578741
No, everybody likes to say that but there are electronic triggers on the market and they're not machine guns. Pardini FPE and 1-/22 eTrigger are the ones I remember
>>30580358
>1-/22 eTrigger
10-22 eTrigger
proofreading is good guys
>>30578256
I have the deluxe VL, with the brass plate. I actually have shot it.
The whole system is pretty terrible, with inconsistent ignition which fucks accuracy. A cold chamber will result in significantly less power or even fail to fire if it is cold enough. A dud likely can't be repressurized and fire, requiring removal with a rod.
Once the chamber is warmed, it works okay. The ammunition is awkward to load and handle, with excessive handling damaging the exposed charge.
>>30580358
The confusion over legal issues comes from the Voere, which had to have a "sporting use" as an import. Naturally, pansies felt a "phantom" rifle without casings was automatically some type of evil assassin's rifle.
>>30578281
but honestly, is the cost high because electronic triggers (button, wire, glorified spark plug).
or is it high because the people making it want to milk it for colectible/gimmick value, and they don't want to outprice their other products
>>30580354
in my mind I see it being adopted in sniper rifles very quickly, because of the silent action, accuracy etc, and the willingness to invest in gear
and I maintain there are major advantages, like a variable ROF.
it could be a major advantage to light squad support weapons where the gun performs dual rifle/support roles in a squad
and in handguns it removes a lot of working parts so less can go wrong, it makes any gun drop safe and would pair brilliantly with a owner identity lock (so if someone stole you gun their couldn't use it without re-installing the trigger)
>>30580451
just putting it out there that a silenced voere with a polly stock would be almost perfect as an assassins rifle
>no brass left behind
>silent action
>>30580451
just like that porcelain glock 7 that can go through metal detectors ..... yeah I can see how idiots would fear a caseless gun
>>30576532
>Soldiers clear their rifles every time they come back from patrol. They don't fire them every time they go on patrol. Not even close
I never did that. Only had to do it when entering KAF, everywhere else was with 1 round in the chamber.
>>30569960
They are also usually attached to something that is powered.
>>30580358
Wait, but what stops you from rigging up some basic circuitry and getting what is essentially a machine gun?
>>30581820
n....NO THAT IS COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE
NO WAY YOU COULD DO IT...
>>30581820
totally possible. What stops you from converting an AR to full auto? ATF has arbitrary limits on how difficult something needs to be to convert to full auto
Alright /k/, I got a question. Had the G11 program started off with development of an electronically primed caliber, do you think it would have had more progress?
>>30571330
Electronic triggers are illegal because someone might haxx one into full auto says the atf
>>30581955
nah batteries back then were really bad
>>30581994
Even aa batteries? Or did they not have them back then? Electronic ignition only needs a small charge, nothing gigantic.
>>30571389
Jack Parrow did it before it was cool
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z2UdJhqVsc8
>>30582045
They had alkaline batteries as we think of them, though they were very prone to rupturing. Rechargeable batteries were garbage, generally being lead-acid or NiCad and not being worth a shit.
>>30580886
>silent action
>silent action
>silent action
You keep saying this like it's worth something, but the gunshot is still going to make loud noise anyway.
>>30583292
Alright, but still. The electronic trigger allows the insides to simplify ALOT more than what they ever would have been. (I think, kraut magic meme makes me think the guts is the trigger assembly.)
>>30583380
you can see a bit here just as an example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq06dgJw1vQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVwTrIDBKwI
when you get to a certain point of suppression it becomes relevant
the famous delisle carbine for instance was bolt action, because a semi-auto's cycling would be louder than the actual firing
![20160105_214130[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/UUCL48O.jpg "20160105_214130[1].jpg")
Hey, someone might find this interesting. Last fall I built a home-made 20x102mm Destructive Device that used electronic primers. Almost all of the military 20x120mm ammo (primary used in the M61 vulcan gun on the CIWS system and certain aircraft) used electronic primers. By contrast, the well-known Anzio rifles use normal percussion primers.
I had to do a bit of research on the primer found in the ammo I had to find out what kind of electrical requirements it needed to fire. In the end, I built a detonator that blasts the primer with 300v DC at an unknown, but probably excessively high amperage. The gun I build has a stainless steel electrode ("firing pin") that is spring loaded to keep light forward pressure against the primer. The electrode sits within several insulated bushings I made out of acetal/delrin.
There's my 0.02 to add to this conversation. Ask away if you want to know more.
I'm not a robot
>>30583742
Is it triggered by the start button or the z button?
This is important to the continued health of your dog.
![20151116_133023[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/3kxJAWP.jpg "20151116_133023[1].jpg")
>>30584020
The start button charges up the device, and both L+R fire it. It converts the 3v DC from two CR123s in series into 300V DC through means of a boost converter. This is stored in a flash photo capacitor. The L&R buttons have snap-action switches below them in series, which dumps the contents of the capacitor to the electrode, and then the primer. It makes a very healthy spare, it will blast the chrome plating off of a screwdriver.
>>30584107
>and both L+R fire it
Please prepare your anus for the impending ATF visit. Do not attempt to hide or shield your dog.
>>30584327
RIP DOG. Press 'F' to pay respects.
>>30572536
underrated post
>>30583742
Hey, I remember you. What's up?
How effective is the device at making things go boom?
>>30585239
It works, that's about all I can ask of it. Launches a sizable boolit with ~36,000ft/lbs of energy. Accurate within minute-of-tannerite-container. Gonna take it out on this Saturday and blast off a bit for my birthday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XAqXSsZyHU
>>30571058
>and generally being worse than a mechanical firing system in most ways
>i pulled this out of my ass
>>30585354
It's biggest selling point was accuracy, with one entire caliber having horrible accuracy due to production issues. Beyond that, the quality of the loading was on par with everything else Remington loaded, now fired from a rifle with a key on the pistol grip and a tendency to have electronics failures, particularly in extreme temperatures, mostly the cold if I remember correctly.
