So, Touhou lore. Tell me about it.
I've been addicted to Touhou for years, but I know very little aside from what I see in the images or the scenarios artists depict, and the occasional 4koma. I do piece some parts of the lore/universe together based on what I see, but it's all really framented and I have little idea of the big picture.
And what little I DID read about character bios, (fan?) canon, and places and events in the 2hu universe (mostly from wikis), just made me cringemax and want to never about its lore ever again.
How do I get into the lore, and how do I stop viewing 2hu's lore as cringeworthy fan fiction?
>>15247936
Everyone except: Reimu, Marisa and Sanae either sees humans as food or hold various amounts of contempt/hate for them.
Humans in the village are a "faith battery", outsider are brought in and killed/eaten on a regular basis.
Everyone is a huge, Jovian Planet Sized, asshole to boot.
>>15247936
>cringeworthy
Give some examples please.
>>15247954
I wish I remembered some of the really bad stuff I read on the 2hu wiki, but here's something random about Iku Nagae I found in about 10 seconds.
>In her Scarlet Weather Rhapsody official profile, it is stated, "she can read the mood of a place, and adapt to it right away. She doesn't try to break the mood unless there's a very urgent reason. Flexibility is stronger than stiffness. When necessary, she vanishes completely and parries any attack." However, in the neighbourhood where her speech and conduct irritate the opponent, it's a question of whether she truly reads it. (Very much so, it can be conceived that upon reading the atmosphere, she ventures to say things that give her superior mental and emotional standing than her opponent.)
That's definitely not close to the worst I've read, but just a quick example of the type of content that makes me want to stay away from reading about the lore.
>>15247983
The main wiki pages are written by non-native speakers and are often direct transliterations of stuff posted on Japanese sites. Read the printed works instead. PMiSS and SoPM for starters, then BAiJR, or if you're interested in something more story-driven, CoLA and the manga are a good choice.
>>15248033
I was actually considering it may have been a translation issue, after I posted that example.
I've been studying/speaking Japanese for about a year, and I know first-hand at how shitty English is at translating all the subtlties of what phrase in Japanese could mean. And it's even worse if translated mechanically.
I'll have a look at PMiSS and SoPM. Thanks.
>>15248060
Just keep in mind both of those are written in-universe, meaning they're prone to inaccuracies. As much as I love the AQN, she is subject to a whole bunch of influences.
If you want objective information, there's always the written profiles from the games themselves.
>>15247936
>And what little I DID read about character bios, (fan?) canon, and places and events in the 2hu universe (mostly from wikis), just made me cringemax
Please try to be 18 before you post on here.
Keep this in mind when reading and judging the legitimacy of theories:
>Print works, CDs, and windows games
Consider it if it's convincing enough.
>PC98
Take with a grain of salt, there's a good chance PC98 as a whole isn't canon.
>Seihou
Be extremely skeptical about them. It may be the sister series that has 2hus and ZUN worked on the first two, but it's still by a different studio. I see a lot of theories that have Seihou represent the far future beyond Maribel and Renko.
Also, my biggest tip is to just play the damn games. Playing the games will make you more interested in the lore and help you retain the knowledge better than anything else, even if you do read the game dialogue on the wiki.
>>15248033
Seconding this suggestion.
The printworks are the best place to start getting into Touhou lore and the wiki is at least pretty good about transcribing the official works. You'd honestly have to be pretty terrible to mess up a literal copy&paste job.
BAiJR and SoPM are basically made both as a beginner's guide to the series and a bonus for existing fans to flesh out the world and characters.
After that Curiousities of Lotus Asia and the official manga's mainly the 3 Fairies of Light series by Makoto Hirasaka (SaBND and OSP), Forbidden Scrollery, Wild & Horned Hermit are the best next step as they flesh out the world even more. Many consider FS and CoLA as the peak of ZUN's 2hu lore in general.
As for the other stuff, Silent Sinner in Blue and Cage in Lunatic Runagate are meant to be taken as a whole entity with Imperishable Night. They're basically all part of one huge arc in themselves with each supplementing the other so it should be saved for last. Inaba of the Moon & Earth is also part of that group but it's just a 4 koma so can be considered a later bonus.
There is also the Sealing Club music collection CD series but that is it's own individual loosely connected story which can be ignored.
>>15248140
Don't forget BAJiR, which does a good job of directly showing off some characters' personalities.
>>15248140
>SSC CDs can be ignored
What the fuck man
Maribel and Renko are probably some of the most interesting characters. Not to mention Maribel is basically confirmed to be Yukari, and the Renko is starting to very closely resemble Yumemi.
Considering that Yukari is one of the most important characters in the series, it'd probably be good to know her origins.
>>15248156
All of that is speculation.
>>15248134
>Printed works
Do you know any good places to get Touhou mangos and whatnot that're in Japanese, either in printed or online form? I can only find English stuff. And I'd be interested in any other noteworthy works out there.
>PC98
Funnily-enough, I'm already kinda obsessed with this platform, and with how ZUN put together his original DOS games on it. Looking to buy one of these machines sometime soon (although I've been messing around with emulators).
>Seihou
I've never heard about this project before. Thanks for telling me about it.
>Play the damn games
I used to play one of the Touhou fightans online. Does that count?
Anyhow, thanks.
>>15247951
>Everyone is a huge, Jovian Planet Sized, asshole to boot.
Surely not everyone, right?
>>15248140
This is really good info. Thanks.
>>15248168
Random Unnamed Human Villager #56.
>>15248168
The Taoist group seems benevolent, with the exception of Seiga and Tojiko.
>>15248156
They're great but admittedly they're non-essential and effectively in their own contained story and if you don't have a knowledge of the existing Touhou lore to begin with a lot of it doesn't really make sense. They're more enjoyable later down the line really once you're more familiar with the setting and inner workings of the series and the games themselves.
>>15248164
No problem. I've got no idea where to buy physical copies of the things, so sorry I can't help with that.
As for Seihou, I've seen some mad theory crafting about it, but I'm going to go ahead and consider it non-canon, though that's just my opinion. The games are pretty fun, none the less.
And yes, the fighters count, assuming you're talking about the official spinoff fighters.
Danmaku may be hard, but it's definitely worth it to play the games, even if you don't like them at first. You'll be able to name every 2hu in no time.
>>15248168
Kogasa did nothing wrong
>>15248161
True, but there's some pretty good evidence for it all.
>>15248177
I should make a extra note that Forbidden Scrollery and WaHH are both ongoing series at the moment so they cover some of the most recent mainline games so you might actually get lost with some of the cast.
All the profiles/articles in Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, BAiJR and SoPM all only go upto Ten Desires/Fairy Wars at the most. FS/WaHH actually started somewhere around the same time chronologically as Ten Desires and very early enters the Double Dealing Character arc.
So with that said CoLA and the first two 3 Fairies series are actually much earlier chronologically and therefore the better stories to look into after you read up on BAiJR/SoPM.
>>15248188
>Fightan
Yep, the official spin-off one. Used to have a lot of fun with that one.
>Danmaku may be hard, but it's definitely worth it to play the games, even if you don't like them at first. You'll be able to name every 2hu in no time.
Already a bit of a Danmaku addict here, heh. And I'm already embarassed to say that I can already easily name nearly every Touhou character I see. Pretty good at recalling an embarassing amount of them, too.
>>15247983
Then stay away from the lore.
>>15248179
So one half of them?
>>15248369
If that's how you want to put it.
Also, for all of Keine's pro-Gensokyo preaching, she's said to be protective of the humans in the village. Eientei was recently opened to human visits with Kaguya's tech expo. Mokou is friendly toward humans, if a bit reserved. AQN and Kosuzu are, naturally, also on good terms with most of the Human Village. Yuyuko and Youmu are described as friendly. And for all her insane fan depictions, Alice is also non-hostile.
I'd say fairies as well, but fairies are barely sentient.
>>15249591
>I'd say fairies as well, but fairies are barely sentient.
Tell me more about this, friend. I've always understand the likes of Kirno and he her pallies being kinda... dumb. But not of sub-sub-human intelligence.
>>15249623
Well, fairies should logically be less intelligent, as they are manifestations of nature, rather than human fears or beliefs, such as is the case with most youkai.
You could say they are more animals than people in that manner. Where most youkai inherit the intelligence of their human creators, fairies inherit the mental capacity of natural spawn - i.e. animals. This isn't to say they can't be intelligent - their average is simply far below that of things born from highly sophisticated human minds.
QUESTION!
Do you think Zun is pushing the whole "Ruler emerging from the Human Village" angle to end the series?
I've seen it brought up 3 times in official works and it looks like everyone, gods and yokai and the religious nutters, absolutely do not want a Human leader to show up and get the Humans shit together.
>>15249764
I have to ask, where do you learn about this kinda stuff? Is it from reading mangos, or reading stuff in-game?
I have no idea what all these Gods, Yokai, Tengu, and whatever jumbly-boos are.
>>15249773
Aya mentions how the youkai want to control the human village before a leader shows up in Forbidden scrollery.
It is also brought up by some big shots in Symposium of Post-mysticism.
A Human Leader=Bad apparently.
>>15249764
>>15249784
Gensokyo is predicated on maintaining the balance between youkai and humans. Considering the games seem to be usually about how youkai upset the balance and fuck with Gensokyo, I'm honestly not surprised ZUN has touched on the angle of how humans can do it too.
The way I understand it, if a strong leader emerges from the humans and they begin to be confident enough to not fear the youkai, the youkai will lose power, which would be disastrous considering Gensokyo is supposed to be their safe haven. The people in the outside world already do not fear or believe in youkai which is why factions like SDM and Moriya came to Gensokyo. Youkai can persist so well in Gensokyo because their humans still are inherently weak and fearful of them, or believe in them in the case of Moriya Shrine or the religious factions.
Considering the humans' fear/faith/belief in the youkai or religious factions is what gives them power, it stands to reason they all want to control the humans in some way so they can be dominant. Keine/Mokou being human-focused is definitely a rarity, even human-friendly factions like EET rely on them for faith, belief, or money. "Everyone" not wanting the humans to get their shit together is accurate in a way, because if the humans think for themselves, all of the factions lose.
Likewise, Reimu/Yukari/etc always have to maintain balance in incidents because if the youkai get too powerful and threaten to wipe out other youkai or the humans, that ruins the balance as well. I think Yukari at some point in the past threw a ton of youkai at the Lunarians and purposefully got them slaughtered en masse because they were threatening the balance too much, so they needed their numbers culled. As far as I can tell, this is also one of the reasons they made spellcard rules, so youkai couldn't just kill people.
I could be retarded and this could all be wrong but this is how I've always interpreted it.
I'm not sure if Touhou as a series could "end", if all the stuff about ZUN wanting to maintain a doujin spirit is true, I feel like he wouldn't want to give a clear-cut ending for the series one way or the other.
>>15249892
Doesn't matter if it's just your interpretation, but it's interesting nontheless. Makes me want to read the mangos now.
Thanks for the detailed reply.
Play the actual games (6 or 7, but all of them are translated so go with whatever interests you)
Accept no substitutes
>>15249914
Up until today, I didn't even know the Touhou games had lore in them. Or at least, lore presented with any kind of depth.
I really should play them. Not to mention I'm studying Japanese, so I'd probably have a great time translating while playing.
>No ones told him yet
Hey OP, did you know that none of the battles you witnessed in the entire series were serious? That's right, every single character is instead play-fighting with rules set in place by Reimu.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Spell_card
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Draft_of_Spell_Card_Rules
Were you, for example, under the impression that the story of EoSD could be summarized as "Red mist suddenly spreads everywhere and the protagonists go investigate, discovering that a vampire and its cohort had fallen into Gensokyo and were plotting to rule it"?
Nope, Remilia had been attacked and repelled in the past, and was in fact the catalyst the made Reimu implement the spellcard system.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Reimu_Hakurei
Why are there some characters who seemingly don't know who Reimu is, despite 100% of everyone using the rule system she only forced at most few years ago? Who knows! Why does Miko, who was revived only moments ago, already know how to use spellcards and is immediately prepared to engage in a spellcard battle? Fuck it, that's why.
Touhou lore is dumb, don't think about it too hard.
>>15250338
my favorite thing about spellcard rules is that Reimu can just beat the shit out of whoever she wants anyway
so it serves the purpose of allowing humans to try and defend against the youkai, and making the youkai feel like it's not hopeless to argue with Reimu
>I've been addicted to Touhou for years
Somehow I doubt that.
>>15249591
It's more like...
By definition youkai are monsters born from human fear who exist to cause havoc, but the majority of the ones in Gensokyo nowadays are *high-functioning* monsters. They still don't think like humans do, but they're fully in control of themselves and don't stir up shit unless someone else does it first.
Like, yeah Yuyuko is friendly but she'll occasionally slip poison into your food just to see the look on your face when you notice. She's done this at least twice.
>>15250338
Spellcard rules exist so that youkai can cause incidents, and this spread fear among the humans, without actually killing off their source of belief. It's also implied that youkai had a hand in developing spell card rules, and in cases where new residents in Gensokyo already know spellcard rules, it's possible that they were explained these rules when Reimu came to confront them.
Oh, and it's also canon that Reimu goes through multiple attempts to resolve incidents (like the life/continue system in the games).
>>15251387
>Yuyuko is friendly but she'll occasionally slip poison into your food
She slipped poison in Eirin's tea (someone she knew was powerful) in order to blackmail her into working for her. This wasn't a random act.
>>15248164
>I used to play one of the Touhou fightans online. Does that count?
You mean
>Immaterial and Missing Power
>Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
>Hisoutensoku
>Hopeless Masquerade
>Urban Legend in Limbo
?
The fighting games are collabs between ZUN and the circle Tasogare Frontier. So ZUN writes the story, and Tasofro are mostly left to their own devices when it comes to art and mechanics. Then ZUN comes up with names for the attacks, and occasionally vetoes things if they clash too much with the lore (e.g. Tasofro wanted to give Aya an attack that summons Momiji, but ZUN shot it down because they don't get along).
>>15251401
With Yuyuko it's kinda hard to tell. I sort of get the impression that she knew the poison wouldn't work, given that Eirin claims to be a Hourai immortal in that scene, and Yuyuko can later sense that Mokou is one.
>>15251440
Important part: but also that she knew Eirin would detect the poison, given that Eirin is the best pharmacist in the solar system.
>>15250372
>allowing humans to try and defend against the youkai
Not particularly; just not dying.
>>15251442
So basically she was doing a subtle "you know that I know" thing with Eirin, who she knew was smart enough to pick up on it. (though Yuyuko has a bad habit of doing this with people who /aren't/ smart enough to pick up on it, then getting frustrated at the lack of response)
Basically, it was a warning: "I can sit down with someone I'm murdering and not flinch. Obviously poison is not going to work on someone who's both immortal and an expert on poison - that's so obvious that it should be clear I made that 'mistake' on purpose. But I have many ways of hurting you if you cross me, and they'll be delivered with just as much subtlety as this one."
Or maybe she just did it for shit and giggles.
>>15249773
>I have to ask, where do you learn about this kinda stuff? Is it from reading mangos, or reading stuff in-game?
The events and current social events? Combination of everything, games and the mangas, they are a ongoing story afterall.
>I have no idea what all these Gods, Yokai, Tengu, and whatever jumbly-boos are.
If you mean the terminology and species then this is a good starting place one of the first official printworks and explains most of them. Keep in mind this is written in character from the viewpoint of Hieda no Akyuu so somethings are actually misinformed. (Notice in Mokou's entry it doesn't know about her immortality and mistakes her for some legendary ninja)
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense
Some of the newer introduced species of yokai you'll only learn from simply reading and playing the recent stuff.
>>15251440
>Yuyuko can later sense that Mokou is one.
It has to do with her ability to invite people to their death, it makes the Hourai immortals the natural enemy of Yuyuko being the administrator of the dead.
>>15247936
>No one linked Strange Creators of Outer World yet
For shame. "Basic Knowledge of Fantastic Words 2015" and "Who's Who of Humans & Youkai in Gensokyo" were written to introduce people to the lore, and they don't even have in-universe bias like Akyuu's books.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/SCoOW
>>15251463
It's all true.
It's within Yuyuko's canon personality that she inexplicably seems to understand everything going on whilst putting on a image of being airheaded.
>>15251463
>Or maybe she just did it for shit and giggles.
Funny thing is this temperament works in favour of her species and is the whole reason she was given such a important job as administrator of the netherworld. It is also probably well within her interests to have some awareness and knowledge of current events whilst thinking of everything as a big joke.
Look at the other two ghosts in the series, Murasa and Tojiko, both are actually very emotionally unstable in the canon. One breaks down whenever she sees a boat to the point she regularly compulsively stalks and attempts to sink Komachi a shinigami's boat. It's played up for a joke but it establishes that Murasa isn't completely there in the head and extremely dangerous. The other regularly has mood swings and bursts of anger which manifest into a small localized thunderstorm which can kill people.
I guess this is somewhat of a tangent, but I've recently taken up on "porting" the translations of the fluffbooks hosted over at Moriya from HTML to laTeX (and thus, pdf), since I thought that they might be easier to pick up in that format.
I've finished SoPM and started working on BAiJR, so if anybody's interested in reading the former after this thread, and would indeed prefer the book in pdf format, I'd be glad to provide.
>>15251784
If you mean in LaTeX format, then yes, please.
Where would I be able to find your stuff after this thread dies?
>>15251800
I have neither a (d)vcs nor a weblog (yet), if that's what you mean.
I can offer you to upload an archive of the project folder. It contains every resource I've used in the process.
>>15251810
I'd very-much be interested in that.
I'm actually learning LaTeX right now, and having example content that I'm actually interested in could prove useful.
>>15251817
Well, that makes two of us.
That port was my first "real" laTeX project, so it's really messy, I'm afraid.
I'm in a bind currently, so I'll have to ask for your patience until later today.
>>15251837
It's all good, Anon. I'm appreciative you're willing to share at all.
>>15251784
Sounds pretty cool I'd be interested in seeing it when it's finished.
>>15251845
Here it is, thank you for waiting.
https://a.uguu.se/P0K6O5HJtCR1_sopm.tar.gz
sopm-1.0.4 is probably of no interest to you, that's kind of the "legacy branch", meaning no shiny stuff, which only receives fixes.
Currently, the background is the only difference between those two.
>>15252310
Here's the current version of SoPM:
https://a.uguu.se/cSDvPcAcK0dl_SymposiumofPost-mysticismV1.1.pdf
>>15252990
Oh, wow. Thanks for going out of your way, Anon!Also, where does the Reimu/Marisa/Suika begin and end in that pic?
>>15253028
The mystique is part of the appeal.
You're welcome, Anon.
I plan on buying a Touhou game. Is Embodiment of Scarlet Devil a good intro to the series?
>>15253381
Yes. It is simple and will teach good fundamentals.
>>15253381
Double Dealing Character is the easiest to get, though.
http://playism-games.com/game/215/double-dealing-character
>>15247951
Youmu doesnt hate humans, Shiki is disappointed in them but doesnt hate them per se
>>15253464
Just download them from Moriya shrine you dummy
>>15253802
>I plan on buying a Touhou game
>buying
>>15247951
You forgot Keine and Akyu and Mokou and Youmu and Rinnosuke. Although those are half-humans or humans.
Also Reisen [On behalf of Eientei] /Aya don't hate humans and even trade with them happily.
>>15250338
>>Why are there some characters who seemingly don't know who Reimu is, despite 100% of everyone using the rule system she only forced at most few years ago? Who knows! Why does Miko, who was revived only moments ago, already know how to use spellcards and is immediately prepared to engage in a spellcard battle? Fuck it, that's why.
I always assumed that Reimu/Marisa or whoever would shortly explain spellcard rules off screen to the characters like Miko or Byakuren before they do battle.
Kinda like how they did in SSiB with Yorihime.
>>15249929
The thing about the games is that the stories and even character personalities are presented in a very bare-bones way. To really get the story of each game, you need to play every ending for every character (and in some cases the Extra, though in others it's more tacked on). In order to really get the characters you have to read their bios that get included in a text file with each game (or translated on the wiki if you can't read moon, but it sounds like you can). I remember I avoided the games for a while and thought I could get by being a filthy secondary just reading the print works and manga but there was always stuff I just didn't understand. As long as you COMPLETE the games and don't just try to 1cc a single character/shot type and say 'okay I'm done', and actually bother to read the profiles, you'll come out with a fairly good understanding.
>>15253464
>Here's a official digital download
>>15253802
>Just pirate it
You are scum.
>>15255828
I have no excuse for DDC, but is it really so scummy to pirate games that are only sold at comiket and reitaisai?
I don't want to pay a stupidly high price and wait a long time for the original copies. I'm working on NEET funding here.
>>15263606
Why would it be wrong to pirate a game you're not supposed to have? It does little to no damage.
>>15263606
>I have no excuse for DDC, but is it really so scummy to pirate games that are only sold at comiket and reitaisai?
Many (but not all) doujin circles don't care about foreigners doing it.
ZUN outright said that he would rather people pirate his games than pay exorbitant import costs. When he was at AWA he said he was flattered that so many American fans brought physical copies of the games for him to sign, and that it was far more than he'd expected.
Tasofro seem to dislike piracy, though their exact stance is less clear than ZUN's.
>>15247936
I usualy waste my time on reading tvtropes' nightmare fuel section.http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/NightmareFuel/Touhou
Not 100% sure if those facts are legit on that site but it's pretty nice to have something to read now & then.
Also people on 4chan & how they read things out & their take on things too. So I'm pretty much chill on both sides.
