Sagume is cute.
she looks like a PC-98
>>14298716
she looks like white Nue
>>14298640
I want to untie that bow and expose her cute, small breasts!
>>14298640
That's not Seija
>>14298946
>Kishin Seija
>>14298946
That's EX Seija
>>14298640
Is she albino?
![72912b5d15f34d02fc751ea49adccfea[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/PxiZMaU.png "72912b5d15f34d02fc751ea49adccfea[1].png")
Isn't it sad? People are rescuing Sagume thread from page 10. And she is the best newhu and one of the most interesting characters since SA.
Amazing design. It looks too modern and stylish for a 2hu, but it maintains classic ZUN formula: it's simple and it's memorable.
She has best fucking ability amongst characters from the last 4 games. It has so much potential for any kind of plot whether it's a gag comedy or a brutal rape with mindbreak.
We don't know much about her personality, but at least she's not a bitch like few other lunarians we know. As always we can leave it to fandom. Considering her ability I wouldn't be surprised if she becomes a perfect tsundere.
If Sagume with her design and powers was in IN instead of old hag Eirin she would be one of the most popular characters. She would be on Remilia/Aya tier with shitton of porn and non-h stuff. But unfortunately at the moment she loses in popularity even to Clownpiece. She probably won't even get into top 40 of the next thwiki popularity poll.
Sorry, Sagume, touhou is too old for your beauty and charisma.
>>14304064
Sagume is a genius. She wasn't up to naughty shit like Junko and the others were. And she basically resolved the LoLK incident herself.
She's cute and powerful too.
I want to have her.
>>14304064
Sagume was just unfortunate enough to debut in the same game as the clown, but she's still the best newhu and my favorite LoLK character, despite not getting her time in the spotlight yet.
I hope ZUN finds further uses for her so she can get fleshed out a bit.
>>14304064
>Sagumefags are this delusional
What is the limit of her power?
Couldn't she just have said "I want the invaders to stay" for them to give up on taking the moon?
>>14305153
Maybe at some point during the invasion she said "The invaders will succeed in capturing the Lunar Capital" and her power manifested by having the heroines show up and defeat Junko.
>>14305168
I see. Her power is very meta, though.
I can see powerlevel-debaters going crazy about her because only saying "I will lose this battle" is enough to fuck shit up.
>>14304064
Couldn't have said it better myself.
All of ULiL was something Sagume set up to solve the LoLK incident. Remember that!
>>14305176
If someone hasn't already realized that power level debates in Touhou are stupid (The way Reimu's ability of "flight" sometimes means "to float away from reality", Yukari's ability to manipulate "borders", Yuugi's ability over things that cannot be explained, Remi's maybe-but-maybe-not power over "fate", Eiki's whatever the fuck she does ...), one more character won't change their mind.
>>14305219
make canon please
>>14304064
>classic ZUN formula: it's simple and it's memorable.
>>14305153
It only works to inconvenience her, even when it helps others.
>>14305390
You can't tell me that the Komeiji sisters don't have memorable designs.
>>14298640
Sagume has two threads!
It is said in her profile that she didn't care what happens to the human as long as Junko plan fails.
Face it, she is just as bad as any other Lunarian.
>>14306028
Why exactly is she supposed to care about some random person she never met before?
>>14306097
Because that person was going to save their home.
She was also one of the sages that suggested killing all of Gensokyou life so Lunarians can live there, that doesn't make that much of a lovable character, Selfishness is one of the reasons why the Watatsuki sisters doesn't get much love either.
>>14306137
Lunarians are super bitches and my dick loves that about them.
>>14305974
One for each wing!
>>14305446
That tiny arm is memorable alright
>>14306137
Wasn't that just a bluff to lure Gensokyo heroes to the moon, though?
>>14304064
Clownpiece>Sagume
>>14307869
It's not even funny how untrue true that is. Clownpiece has literally nothing else going for her besides her design, which is already really hit or miss.
What's her personality? She's a dumb fairy. That's it, been done, a lot. What's her story? She's Hecatia's minion. Thrilling. What's her power? Inducing madness. Third time's the charm, I guess?
It's a fucking joke that she's the stage 5 boss. This is where important characters involved with the story come from. We get playable characters out of this slot! And yet this time we get...this.
>>14304064
It's actually really sad how true this is.
And the worst thing is that this is going to apply for EVERY newhu, they will probably never be popular more than the 5 second fame they get when the new game is released and will later be forgotten and never mentioned again.
I wish ZUN would ease down on introducing new characters and rather works with those he got more.
We will soon get the point where Thouou is going to be like Pokemon, everyone will remember the first batch of them and just think "What the hell is that?" with all the new ones.
>>14298640
>prefect lie
>>14307914
You're a dumb fairy
>>14307918
>I wish ZUN would ease down on introducing new characters and rather works with those he got more.
ZUN only wants new faces in the cardinal games
>where Touhou is going to be like Pokemon
the funny thing is both of them have almost the same age
>>14307914
Let me guess, your favourite faction is Lunarians right? You sound like those kind of "I need everything to be deep and mature such as myself" annoying brats.
>>14307914
is the new meme 2hu that coincidentally is a fairy
![9589e891909145d87419954fafa9d8ae[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/rH83y94.jpg "9589e891909145d87419954fafa9d8ae[1].jpg")
>>14306137
And how many people/youkai were killed during lunarian invasion?
None.
>—The metallic spider's march of purification cannot be stopped.
>Not one blade of grass was left in the spider's tracks.
It's clear that those spider tanks were just harmless lawn mowers. Probably lunarians can't stand living in a place with uncut grass.
>>14308046
Man, are you an ex URSS officer?
>>14307869
But that's actually wrong.
![[HorribleSubs] THE iDOLM@STER CINDERELLA GIRLS - 12 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_21.18_[2015.07.21_21.54.39].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/l1dZ1Fb.jpg "[HorribleSubs] THE iDOLM@STER CINDERELLA GIRLS - 12 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_21.18_[2015.07.21_21.54.39].jpg")
She's my favorite nuhu, she reminds me of Anya.
>>14308118
It's subjective but that's just how I feel
>>14308155
I can respect that.
Well let's say she isn't that bad of a person, but still as a lunarian who lives on the moon and dislike impurity,doesn't that mean we won't see her again?
I mean just look at the moon sisters, when was the last time we heard of them?
>>14304064
She is the 2nd most famous 2hu in her game after clownpiece, it's not that bad.
>>14308288
Hopefully she'll pop up again. It may help that ZUN hasn't explicitly said anything about her being too powerful to face, like he did with the Watatsukis.
She seems like a fairly reasonable person who just had to do some drastic things to save her people, so I don't think she's too deep in the "villain" category to warrant a friendly visit, barring the whole "impurity" deal.
>>14307869
Clown is a better semen demon. Burd is a better character.
>>14298640
I'm surprised nobody made "moon bird cooking spaghetti" pics.
>>14305153
Just like with any other 2hu, no one knows the actual limits of her power. What we do know, however, is that her power is not such a convenient thing where the exact opposite of what she is saying occurs. All that happens is that a situation of which she speaks will begin to reverse itself in some way. There's no guarantee on how a given situation will reverse or the amount of time it will take for the reversal to become apparent.
>>14305176
The danger of saying too many things or saying something that is too open-ended, without appropriately considering all of the possible consequences limits the scope of her powers though. Like in the example you gave, if she actually said that it doesn't necessarily mean her winning the battle or guarantee that she wouldn't win the battle only to die from her wounds.
>>14308417
IIRC the way Sagume's power works is that whenever she speaks about a situation she reverses its probabilities - this is, unlikely outcomes become common and likely outcomes become rare.
>>14308469
I'm not too sure about that. If the wiki is to be believed (Ha) then it just causes situations she speaks about to unfold in the opposite manner. It doesn't make the chance of that event happening more or less likely.
For example, if she says "I'll flip a coin and get heads fifty times in a row," it doesn't become more likely, it just means that somehow, someway, heads won't come up fifty times in a row. The caveat is like >>14308417 said, it's an open-ended result. She could get heads forty-nine times in a row and then get tails, or she could get heads once, and then get tails. Either way, her power prevented her from getting heads fifty times.
Now that I've written that out, it seems like a worse example than I originally intended it to be, but I think it makes sense.
![167d8845f342e386bc016ca85934d42e[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/hX0OxDT.jpg "167d8845f342e386bc016ca85934d42e[1].jpg")
Lots of people are too focusing on wording of her ability. You should think less about its description and think more about ZUN's intention. I think it's obvious ZUN wanted to make it to be some kind of curse, it's completely uncontrollable. In order for the ability to work her words should be a slip, an accident, something she says when she doesn't consciously think about her ability.
This is from her dialogue with Reimu:
>Our migration to Gensokyo will surely go unrealized.
>In exchange, you, an earthling, shall save the Lunar Capital!
And in the end lunarians didn't move to Gensokyo and Reimu won. Sagume's ability didn't trigger. That's probably because Sagume was constantly thinking about her ability when speaking with Reimu.
My description for her ability would be:
"If Sagume speaks about situation its outcome will become opposite unless Sagume is aware that the outcome of this situation may be modified by her ability".
So is her ability powerful? Yes.
Is Sagume powerful [because of this ability]? No, because she can't control this ability.
>>14308762
Following what you say, it seems like the Koishi debate all over again.
Some people said she was too OP because she could basically mess up your unconscious into thinking killing yourself is a great idea, but she wouldn't do that because it doesn't fit her character nor the logical capacity she has now.
In this case Sagume just needs to be aware of what's she saying in order to not activate her power.
But even so, I also think it's not what you think it is, but a type of power that can't nullify itself.
The reason the humans came to the moon was because she said the invaders would succeed in taking the moon.
When she said Reimu was going to succeed it didn't mean Reimu would fail because the current events were already part of her, if I may call it, "destiny-reversing" powers.
>>14308837
>The reason the humans came to the moon was because she said the invaders would succeed in taking the moon.
Where did you get it from? I checked her profile and quickly looked through all four scenario dialogues, but didn't find anything about that.
>>14308574
I think this is the right way of looking at it.
You basically take the logical conjugate of what she says, on which the normal probabilities are then applied.
>>14308879
Well, I thought it happened like that but I can't find anywhere saying that.
I guess you might just be right, then.
>>14298946
It's real
I want to lick Sagume's calves!
>>14308762
In Reisen's scenario, she tells you their plan, and then she mentions that now Reisen HAS to save the capital, since now that she said the plan, it won't happen. She was fully aware her words made the lunarians lose.
Can she use writing to get around her curse?
>>14308417
>>14308469
>>14308574
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18814.msg1211792.html#msg1211792
17 is correct, but 74 is not, since it has nothing to do with the specifics of what she says, only what she's talking about. Flipping a coin is one of the worst examples because her ability would simply cause any heads that -would have happened- to become tails and tails to become heads, or perhaps she loses the coin, or something else.
>>14308762
>And in the end lunarians didn't move to Gensokyo and Reimu won. Sagume's ability didn't trigger
No, it did activate. That's her whole utility for the Lunarians, to be able to use it when appropriate. You're still thinking about it as though it were about "the opposite of her words", which isn't how it works. The situation she presents to the protag is that the Lunarians were going to move to Gensokyo if Junko kept the Capital residents stuck. By reversing this scenario of "the Lunarians migrating to Gensokyo", Sagume's bet is that the reason they wouldn't migrate would be because the protagonist defeats Junko.
I think where people are getting messed up is putting too much focus on what Sagume says. Admittedly, I'm going off the wiki translations, but from her profile and scenario translations there, it seems that her speaking about a situation causes it to reverse its course, not go against what she said specifically.
As an example, let's assume Sagume is watching a 2-horse race, and she is rooting for one of the horses. If her horse is winning, and she comments on that, her words would cause her horse to start to lose. On the opposite end, if her horse is losing, she can talk about that to cause it to start to win.
Where people are getting messed up, in the above example, is assuming that Sagume could say something along the lines of, "My horse will lose," and that this would cause her to win. However, her profile and scenario translations suggest that saying such a thing would just reverse the situation, not make it bend itself into the opposite of her words. In other words, talking about the race by saying, "My horse will lose," will just cause whatever horse is winning to start falling behind, rather than guaranteeing Sagume's horse to win.
Again, I'm relying on the wiki's profile and scenarios, so if anyone with better Japanese can show me where those are wrong on this matter, I'd appreciate it. And sorry for the shitty analogy.
Sagume's power is like Remilia's manipulation of fate if it actually was real, except it works in opposite ways.
>>14308988
Ding ding, we have a winner.
>>14308988
>In other words, talking about the race by saying, "My horse will lose," will just cause whatever horse is winning to start falling behind, rather than guaranteeing Sagume's horse to win.
Wouldn't it be, the horse starts doing better but with no guarantee the horse will actually win?
>>14308980
Yes, that's a thing.
http://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/2156258
>>14308986
Basically, she can save the day without being a martyr.
But she has to know what would happen in the case that she doesn't mention whatever it is she's going to mention.
>>14309094
>But she has to know what would happen in the case that she doesn't mention whatever it is she's going to mention.
That's the tricky part, since she generally can't know how a situation would proceed. The Lunarians could potentially have not invaded Gensokyo because they tried to but the youkai fought them off, for example. That's why Sagume's decision was sort of a gamble.
>>14309078
The example is complex because races are already highly volatile so you can't describe it very well. Basically at any given point in the race, the more likely it is that one horse will win, reversing it would make it very likely that any other scenario will occur. You can't predict what would happen to the middle horses though since their positions might as well already be random.
>>14309078
It depends. Her ability is to reverse the final result of a situation, regardless of how it happens or what happens in between.
When people say "horse 1 is losing," it usually means that horse 1 is going to lose, because it's falling behind. There probably won't be any miraculous last-minute burst that will make horse 1 beat horse 2. But that is based on human probability and judgement.
Sagume's power itself has nothing to do with perception, probability, or judgement. If she knows for a fact that X is going to happen, she can design her statement so that she refers to a situation S such that X is its result. After she makes this statement, something that is NOT X will happen. The only thing in her statement that is relevant to her power is that she is referring to situation S.
Now, perception does come in to play when considering how Sagume uses her power. She could misuse it if she perceives the situation incorrectly. For example, in the horse situation, there is maybe a 99% percent chance that horse 1 will lose. But let's say that it was fate that horse 1 will in fact make a miraculous last-minute victory. Then, if she makes a statement about the horse race, horse 2 will actually win even though it was winning in the first place.
That is Sagume's first weakness, which is that it is often difficult to determine how a situation will actually conclude i.e. predict the future.
Her other weakness is that, she can only invert the set of possible outcomes. That means that anything but the original conclusion could happen.
For example, if Reimu were to have lunch with Marisa tomorrow, Sagume could talk about it. Then, one possible outcome would be Reimu not having lunch at all, while another possible outcome would be Reimu having lunch with Yukari instead.
She can use this power to make something happen, but it's much more difficult to make something not happen. It's not impossible, though.
If Sagume is really smart, she can reduce the situation S that she is referring to, such that the set of possible outcomes is boolean, so she can directly switch the outcomes, indirectly causing something to happen. This is basically a more flexible version of Remilia's ability, but with a much higher mental overhead.
>>14309181
>For example, if Reimu were to have lunch with Marisa tomorrow, Sagume could talk about it. Then, one possible outcome would be Reimu not having lunch at all, while another possible outcome would be Reimu having lunch with Yukari instead.
>
If Sagume is really smart, she can reduce the situation S that she is referring to, such that the set of possible outcomes is boolean, so she can directly switch the outcomes, indirectly causing something to happen. This is basically a more flexible version of Remilia's ability, but with a much higher mental overhead.
I think this is probably the best description. It's not necessarily a guaranteed inversion of what she says unless there's only two outcomes for a given event. Otherwise, her talking about something just prevents it from happening one way or another.
>>14309325
Thanks. I think I'll start tripfagging to keep track of my theories.
>>14309363
Yeah, but probably not the way the artist intended.
You probably could force her to snu snu with you by making her read that, if you manage to convince yourself not to do it otherwise.
Sounds hard, but doable.
>>14307869
Sagume = Doremy >Clownpiece = Hecatia = Junko > Seiran > Ringo
Going by the mythology they are based on, how important/powerful is Sagume (the archetype for the Amanojaku) compared to Eirin (the God of Wisdom)?
>>14309801
Sagume is based on Amanozako, who one could consider to be a direct descendant of Susanoo himself.
Eirin is based off of Omoikane, a pretty tame/minor god in comparison.
>>14309834
>Sagume is based on Amanozako, who one could consider to be a direct descendant of Susanoo himself.
Nah, it's Ama no Sagume, which is pretty obvious looking at the name.
>>14310035
Ama no Sagume is Amanozako.
>>14310055
Really? Which source are you referencing?
>>14310104
Not referencing a source. I always just thought they were the same/seen them used interchangeably.
Could be wrong though.
>>14310178
Nope, one is oni and the other is a tengu.
>>14310104
Not the guy you're talking to, but it seems there are at least some scholars who connect Sagume with Amanozaku. The version of Sagume presented in LoLK seems to incorporate the elements of Amanozaku as well.
https://books.google.com/books?id=QzjWCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA453&lpg=PA453
>>14310055
Nope, totally different beings.
Ame no Sagume is clearly one of Amewahiko's (Chold of Amaterasu) servant as in the description here :
http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=42
While Amanozako is Goddess of Tengu.
http://yokai.com/amanozako/
![18b33b6b17ae69de6c413fd599e5cef2[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/XxI3I21.png "18b33b6b17ae69de6c413fd599e5cef2[1].png")
If I was ZUN I would write Sagume into the next chapter of WaHH/FS and then suddenly reveal that it's not a wing, but just her hair. Then I would go to /jp/ and read all the butthurt and tears of her fans.
>>14312932
Is she actually drawn as having boobs there? What is happening to ZUN?
![c10b0f81e2d3955ec455df6b0a463d73[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/0tskaO7.jpg "c10b0f81e2d3955ec455df6b0a463d73[1].jpg")
>>14313169
>The acceleration due to gravity on the surface of the Moon is 1.62519(412) m/s2, about 16.6% that on Earth's surface.[1]
Lower gravity => bigger and healthier tits.
>>14313191
I like this pic so much...
Please sit on my face, lady Sagume!
>>14313447
You wish
Sagume is only for pure yuri love with the baku
Sagume is a fan of Araki's work.
>>14313447
Sagume smells poop.
She reminds me Kanade: doesn't talk a lot, wings, powerful as hell... They even have the same colors !
I don't care much for Sagume but she has a really fun power
>>14298736
kek
>>14309801
Omoikane is the chief advisor of the heavenly gods (still can't get Amaterasu out of a fucking cave though), Sagume is some no-name land goddess who is only famous because she fucked up big time.
It isn't even a contest.
>>14324062
>still can't get Amaterasu out of a fucking cave
Wasn't the whole booze-and-stripper party her idea?
>>14324686
No, Omoikane did dick all and pretty much gave up before Uzume popped up and did her yuri strip show and Amaterasu was all over her tits in no time.
Amenouzume is the busty, ditzy-looking genius girl of Takamagahara.
>>14323920
In fact I do the same things as her everyday
>>14305219
How so?
>>14298640
Why is she protrayed with a wing when it's supposed to be hair?
>>14329418
Are you being dumb on purpose?
Maybe she just have one because...
Sagume: "I love my wings, I take care of them every day, so nothing happens to them !"
>>14329700
And Mokou is a phoenix. You're even dumber if you use spellcard name as a proof.
PS: there was an interview where ZUN confirmed it to be a wing.
>>14329154
She created a Power Stone strong enough to start materializing rumors within Gensokyo. People talking about rumors in the Outside World would make them pop up in Gensokyo, hence the events of ULiL. The plan was to spread the rumor that NASA had discovered the Lunar Capital, and by doing so the Lunar Capital could instantly move into Gensokyo. That was the original plan to move the Lunar Capital in case it was necessary.
>>14329757
Mokou is a phoenix, didn't you see her feathers?
>>14329911
So what's the next step of her master plan?
>>14330217
Well, the next step is lolk 's scenario: when she saw that the humans defeated Doremy, she decided to test them. Then, by telling them her plans, she reversed the situation, causing the relocation of the Capital to fail and send them to defeat Junko.
>>14331677
But now what? Junko's defeated, but the moon's still tainted and impure. Sea of Tranquility is still full of life.
Does the Lunar Capital just stay in the dream world now?
>>14331703
The Lunarians have the tech to purify the moon, they prove it by trying to do it to Gensokyo, so I think they will just go back home
>>14298640
>>14304064
No hat though.
>>14298716
>she looks like a PC-98
Kishin Sagume a PC! A PC!
>>14304064
>
>>14313191
>lower gravity
and people more tall and incapable to carry the same weight that earthlings in her bodies, so no
>>14331677
>causing the relocation of the Capital to fail
Is sagume a nice lunarian, aren't she?
Playing Guess Who with her must be pretty annoying.
>>14332899
That would really, really hurt.
Sagume filled out.
Silence And Glory Unite My Empire
>>14333580
I bet it did
>>14333400
Thank you.
