What does /ic/ think of an artists like Phil Hale who works exclusively with reference and still manages to put out creative illustrations? I know E.M. Gist who does oil painted comic book covers also uses reference every time. Not to mention all the contemporary figurative fine artists.
Does the "using reference is cheating" meme hold any weight at all?
It's not cheating, it's limiting. If you can only draw a pose in front of you, how the fuck will you ever make a creative composition?
good luck making a fucking comic book or something.
>>2366196
I agree that it is limiting when it comes to composition, you're at the mercy of what you can do with the model and lighting, or the photo. But to be fair if you're going for a certain level of realism not having a reference can be limiting as well.
I'm not saying it's impossible to make things look realistic without reference but it's at a much lesser degree than someone who uses reference. Take someone like Frazetta who worked from imagination, his illustrations are great and obviously he had incredible knowledge of light and the human body but even then you can tell they are designed from imagination right away.
>>2366191
Regardless of what /ic/ says the majority of professional artists use reference. Everyone on here thinks that using reference means sitting there and making a photocopy then changing a few details but that's not how you use it. You come up with your idea and find reference to help you add believability, whether that's rendering and texturing, posing, coloring, whatever and that's applicable to hyper realistic art as well as the simplest cartoons. Even once you learn your fundamentals, reference will always be a valid tool for enhancing your work and the more you use it the more you'll be able to do without relying on it. Using reference also doesn't mean composing an entire picture out of it to copy, so you won't always be referencing everything in a picture anyway if you're going about it right. Using reference has been the industry standard for a long time and /ic/ needs to let go of the false belief that using reference = copying, and great or pro artists don't use ref.
>>2366213
The point is working with reference is fine (for composition anyway, you should always grab reference when you're creating art, but used in the capacity of looking at a few things to understand how they work rather then copying it from the same angle), but if you can ONLY work with a reference they you're going to be seriously limited. If you only want to do illustration of a fairly limited subject matter, it's fine to have that limitation, but if you want to animate, draw comics, do concept art, architectural illustrations the list goes on, then you need to be capable of forming compositions and scenes from the depths of your brain meat, as being able to wrap a photo in a batman flavor coat of paint won't get you too far for any of those things.
>>2366191
>Does the "using reference is cheating" meme hold any weight at all?
no it doesn't. That whole deal was started by butthurt elitists who can't paint believable realism so when someone that used a reference did it better they rallied up and started this toxic trend.In all truthfulness, the only place in the world where people think using reference is cheating is this shithole
>>2366191
>Not to mention all the contemporary figurative fine artists
Adorable.
>>2366213
>imagination
Frank used photos religiously.
>>2366292
I don't understand your comment
I'm talking about guys like Steve Huston, Jeremy Lipking, David Kassan, etc... who have been successful painting from life and photographs
>>2366191
Every artist worth a damn uses reference, dipshit. Even if they don't go so far as to hire models to pose for a specific painting, they still are using some type of reference.
>>2366191
>"using reference is cheating"
Said no one ever. Why make up a fake conflict that doesn't exist, you dumb fuck?
>>2366237
Not really. You must be one of those retards who thinks "using" a reference means copy pasting a photo, adding a filter and chromatic abberation and calling it a day. Because those are the only instances I've ever seen on this board where people call out the "artist" for being a fraud and a cheater.
>>2366213
>Take someone like Frazetta who worked from imagination
wew
![NewImage2[1].png_w=970.png](https://i.imgur.com/kZWYqxV.png "NewImage2[1].png_w=970.png")
>>2366213
>Frazetta who worked from imagination
good joke
>>2366717
Frazetta was excellent at drawing from imagination. But of course, because he used reference for some of his finished paintings, that obviously must mean he never drew anything that wasn't 100% referenced. Why is it always 1 of 2 extremes with retards like you?
>>2366213
>Take someone like Frazetta who worked from imagination
Kek.
I cant believe there are people who actually still believe this bullshit.
>>2366762
>dat missing torso
he should have used a ref
>>2366765
>what is foreshortening
You should learn the fundamentals instead of depending so much on reference.
>>2366773
>missing torso with pelvis next to pectorals
>calls it foreshortening
kek
>>2366764
see >>2366762 you fucking moron.
I'm actually annoyed sometimes by how beginners worship people like Frazetta and legit believe that they are some gods who dont even need to use references, and mere mortals will never reach that level.
Stop with this fairytale bullshit, Frazetta used references, Sargent used references, Michelangelo used references, theres no magic in what they did. I'm expecting you fuckers to finally realize this, you're on a board about art, stop being such ignoramus deviantart pleb that have no understanding at all how these things are made.
>>2366765
>hurr durr Frazetta only used references, he couldn't draw from imagination!
>hurr durr everything Frazetta did looked like shit and is full of muh anatomy mistakes, he should have used references!
Make up your mind, dipshit.
>>2366780
obviously you shouldn't be drawing from imagination if you suck at it.
you have no mind, kek.
>>2366779
Frazetta might have used references for some of his finished paintings after he drew the composition, poses etc, just to get certain focal points right, but to believe he wasn't able to draw from imagination is utterly retarded. Do noobs like you seriously think Frazetta used a model or photo for EVERY sketch he ever drew? How fucking delusional do you have to be just to feel better about your own lack of skill?
Artists CAN draw from imagination, you know that, right? It's not some kind of unverified myth, you can watch artists stream or watch them at workshops or class demos etc.
>>2366783
>kek
>kek
>kek
Right, Frazetta clearly sucked at it, kek.
>>2366789
here's a protip
go study anatomy
>>2366621
I don't even use reference in my works.Not to mention I don't even want to begin to understand how to make chromatic aberration.It is well known that this place frowns upon referenced work. Calling me a retard doesn't fortify your point any more than defecating in your own undergarments as you wrote that needless bait.
>>2366789
Everyone knows Frazetta was able to summon demon at will, as well as having a private zoo full of different animals including pterodactyls to pose for him at any given time. What a hack.
>>2366779
It's honestly sad as fuck that there are beginners like you out there who have convinced themselves of the fact that all they can ever amount to is google image search for photographs and then copy said photographs instead of actually developing an ability to draw, to be creative and to use references to expand their visual library, not as a crutch to constantly rely on.
Seriously, if you can't open your sketchbook and just draw something without having photos in front of you, you are no artist and you will never be an artist.
>>2366795
But that's what I'm telling you to do, you idiot, so you don't have to constantly rely on references.
>>2366809
>ctrl+f
>study anatomy
>1 post which is mine
kek at you
>>2366795
Is that your excuse why you are too afraid to git gud at drawing from imagination? Here's a protip: No one cares about perfect anatomy. Frazetta had a great understanding of anatomy and he still fucked up figures and animals quite a bit. That's a small price to pay for having strong, gestural and creative poses instead of some stiff, anatomically accurate copy of a photo.
People seem to forget on this thread that using reference can mean different things
It can mean straight up copying of a photo
It can mean just copying a pose
It can mean just looking for pertinent exa
mples of texture and design
>>2366196
>good luck making a fucking comic book or something
Every time it's like you guys don't have a fucking clue how artists work.
Artists use reference all the time to make believable art.
>>2366829
>Look at how stiff his drawing is!
>Literally a drawing of a dead person
How dynamic do you want dead people to be?
>>2366893
That's moebius though, figures aren't his strong suit, I'd like you to show a similar steal from Jim Lee or Katsuhiro Otomo.
[spoiler]I actually agree with your point, mostly, but comic art requires tremendous imagination drawing, most poses you'll find for photo reference are too boring for comics and manga[/spoiler]
>>2366717
Where's that reference from?
>>2366196
huehuehuehuehuehue
>>2366196
You say this in a thread about Phil Hale?
You are the most unintelligent person on this board.
>>2366215
>Everyone on here thinks that using reference means sitting there and making a photocopy then changing a few details
Except I don't you massive fucking faggot.
>>2366191
Nobody ever says references are cheating. Copying the reference line by line is "cheating" but it limits you so much who gives a fuck.
>>2367903
You're a nobody that doesn't matter though so who cares.
>>2366893
why would you even need reference for such a simple thing?
>>2370300
Deadlines. It can be much faster to draw something from a reference then to draw from memory.
People, not everything is black and white. Just because Frazetta used references doesn't mean he was incapable of drawing from his imagination. Using reference is not a crutch. It can be compared to modern day's photobashing, sometimes it's just faster to pull a reference from somewhere and throw it down as opposed to drawing/painting something from the top of your head.
For example,
>>2366717
Why would you not use reference here? What do you have to gain from drawing some inconsequential figure from your imagination as opposed to from a photo, especially when the photo depicts the pose you want to use? Why would an accountant calculate figures in their head or on paper when a calculator exists?
>>2366191
can we have more phil hale in here
