Grand Prize
>You drew everyday for a long time, longer than anyone else. Congratulations. You are the best
Rules
>Update every day at: http://www.lavaflake.com/draw/
>The deadline for submissions is 23:59:59 GMT each day
>You should spend at least 30 minutes on each update
>Miss a day and you lose a token, FAQ is the first post.
>Miss another day within a month and you're eliminated.
>Progress updates are ok but they will be policed like other submissions
>Please wait until page 9 to start a new thread
>Please link to past thread
>Have fun.
>Please refrain from drawing sexual encounters with under age humans ;^)
Last Thread >>2597270
>>2600908
FAQ:
Something's broken, what do I do?
>The site is currently in the alpha phase of development and is being built around us as we compete so sometimes things go wrong. If you ever need any help send me a tweet @LavaFlake or shoot me an email [email protected].
What do we draw?
>Whatever you want. At this point there's no required topic so draw your heart out. Make sure you submit at least a half hour of work or you may get a low effort warning.
What's a low effort warning?
>The goal is to get people to draw every day by turning it into a competition. The low effort warning system is to prevent people from posting last minute, quick sketches when they're feeling lazy. If you receive a warning and it happens again within a month you'll be eliminated.
>This rule has been the cause of a lot of concern amongst newer artists so let me reiterate: this system is to police low effort content and has nothing to do with the quality of the work. New artists are more than welcome.
What happens if I'm eliminated?
>A new Last Artist Standing challenge starts every week. If you get eliminated then get it together and rejoin next week.
How can there be a new Last Artist Standing challenge every week?
>This is a way to let new artists join in and to allow re-entry for the eliminated. Every week a new challenge is started. If you joined on week 1 and make it to week 2 then your daily submission counts for both the first and second Last Artist Standing. If you get eliminated then you're eliminated from both challenges and you'll be able to rejoin next week.
Will I have an advantage if I join later in the week?
>The winner of a Last Artist Standing will be the artist with the longest streak. If you join on day 1 and last until day 85 then you'll have a streak of 85. If there's only one person left in the challenge when you're eliminated but they joined on Day 7 then they'll need to continue on for another week. If they're eliminated before then, you win.
>>2600909
This is a list of anons who regularly stream, this list will be updated as we move forward, if you wish to be included please post you name/stream profile.
>STREAMERS
https://picarto.tv/aimai
https://picarto.tv/Containercore
https://picarto.tv/CraniumOverLord
https://picarto.tv/dotesq
https://picarto.tv/JMGNfunbox
https://picarto.tv/magicoreo
https://picarto.tv/nakedoats
https://picarto.tv/N4F
https://picarto.tv/radianart
https://picarto.tv/andrae
https://picarto.tv/lokkilokki
https://picarto.tv/Sorensen
https://picarto.tv/lonku
https://picarto.tv/UltraBondageFairy
https://picarto.tv/VitaminNeko
https://picarto.tv/Choob
https://picarto.tv/susipari
https://piczel.tv/watch/HighOnDopamine
Las_streams@twitch (multistream for twitch)
Streamers, please let the thread know when you're streaming so people can join the "fun".
Should I bother coming back?
SHIP PIC SHIT PIC SHIT PIC SHIT PIC
Where are my badgers lava?
Where are my FUCKING BADGERS LAVA?
>>2600908
THREADY WHERE'S MY ART REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>2600914
Are you Lava?
Then yes.
Are you someone else?
I dunno. Do what you want.
>>2600908
stop picking the same artists all the friggin time
There's a giant wasp in the house.
I've barricaded myself in my room.
Now I'm forced to draw all day.
>>2600929
MY NAME IS NOT IMPORTANT
>>2600929
Why would you use a new artist instead of somebody who's been consistently posting for months? are you trying to be an asshole?
https://picarto.tv/ukanon
STUDY STREAM
FIGURE STUDIES GESTURES ETC
>>2600932
plz beh wek 1n
Is crit keeper dead?
wtf I was a bit more than a week close to get my crits. not fair
>>2600955
Replaced by Crit Sensei who pops in a little after 00:00. We're on week 1 day 2.
What day were you?
>>2600963
you mean week 2 day 1 right?
>tfw rejoined after dropping out of wk2
>>2600971
Nope. There were so many on day1, and with all the disappearing critics over time, we've only now moved on to day 2.
>>2600932
>tfw lava transformed into a giant wasp and is now wasting his time making this anon draw every day
>>2600977
kek
>>2600976
oh boy this is gonna take forever
How do I draw atmosphere?
>>2600988
by killing yourself
>>2600991
anon please
Damn people on imgur are edgy
>>2601003
sorry
>>2600935
WHAT MATTERS IS OUR PLAN
>>2601006
It's all good familyman
>>2601007
S-SantiChasca?
>>2600977
>Not wasping his time
>>2601010
It's clearly Bane, the mercenary, not santi
>>2601007
BANE?
>>2601018
Get them on board I'll call it in
>>2601014
the masked man?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlqGvf4dYNY
Crayne, your heads improved significantly, good job man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eQKNYLptWk
where are all of the animator friends
we're supposed to be in this together guys
>>2601057
sure anon, sure :)
>>2601057
I've given up already on all challenges, I gotta get my shit together and start a study plan.
>>2601055
Thanks... wasn't able to complete all the aspects of the challenge but I'm definitely gonna keep trying to follow along with it. Will likely spend this next week trying to tackle value studies while still working on head construction. My ability to do stuff without reference is still really shitty, but it's slowly getting better.
>>2601066
Fibinochi?
>>2601075
I wish I was as relaxed and without worry as fibinochi
Well, I quit for good /las/.
I just don't see the point. Art is too hard. You would think it would be easy.
If you think about it logically people have been doing art from the dawn of humanity. Art is too brutal, going to stick to programming and maths. Maybe, I can earn a living with programming.
Bye /las/
>>2601081
nothing of value lost ;^)
>>2601057
Should we be uploading them as we do them?
I was just gonna dump all of them at the end.
>>2601081
PLEASE
BE
WEEK
ONE
>>2601081
>You would think it would be easy
Who would possibly think that?
>>2601081
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLSuESKJi5k
>>2601081
You're making a big mistake and you're going to take it to your grave. Good luck anon
>>2601081
>giving up when the going gets tough
Never gonna make it.
>>2601081
I too realize I can do far better in programming and maths but every time I attempt to jump into it the calling to draw again comes back and I can't make up my mind.
Just an idea, you can pull a zun and just make art for the sake of using your own assets for a game you can make. It's kind of what the MoatDD guy did.
>>2601081
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkKIZq4kwRE
>>2601081
>tfw this will never be SantiChasca
>>2601107
>tfw it IS already santi
>>2601111
>destroys the (you) market
>gets quads
>>2601112
fuck off wait you know what nvm you're pretty much contained in this thread
don't make me catch you outside this filth pen
>>2601093
Well, you need a pretty big IQ to do Mathematics or Computer Science or Physics.
Most art people or people who study art have low IQs.
Also, do people even find this stimulating. Grinding drawabox exercises, then drawing from Loomis. Just seems like you are just copying from nature.
>>2601111
>pretending to be retarded
>quads
nigger just crashed the thread
>>2601117
Grinding is step 1
>>2601116
>*Unsheathes katana*
>>2601117
I've literally never studied Loomis or any of those drawing books. I'm not the best, but I'm better than some. Art doesn't have to be a dry, boring grind unless you make it one.
>>2601117
>copying from nature
you mean like science?
>>2601121
Then comes the blowjob, yes?
>>2601124
R E K T
>>2601127
oh look, another fucking retard.
I'll let you know I have a physics major so you better shut the fuck up boy. I'm doing this as a hobby while I earn more than twice what you will ever earn in your whole life drawing like a slave for a company.
>>2601129
O_O
>>2601117
> IQ
I'm not doubting the findings of this graph, because IQ is strong at evaluating a person's overall ability to identify patterns, do abstract thinking and analysis.
But intelligence is deeper than a single arbitrary number. There are many forms of intelligence, from motor ability and muscle memory (useful in athletics/gaming), social intelligence (picking up on queues, understanding interpersonal interactions, articulation), visual acumen (inherent ability to quickly break down visual stimuli), auditory acumen (ditto for sound), and so on and so forth.
The brain is fucking complicated as fuck. You can't just categorize an individual's mind by a number that evaluates only one facet of its "skillset".
>>2601136
t. butthurt with low IQ
>>2601130
If it takes you a thousand hours to learn something, you need to re-evaluate how you're studying.
>>2601117
I'm a studying engineer and I find both art and engineering stimulating in different ways. Grinding itself isn't fun, but a real, observable sense of your own improvement is immensely satisfying. Art is compelling because it's so much harder than everything else, even if you're smart. You can't learn art the way you learn math or programming. It's like exercise. It technically hurts, but it's challenging and makes you a stronger person, so you just keep doing it.
>>2601138
Quite the opposite actually.
I'm a computer scientist struggling at art. Math is second nature to me. Something as simple as Loomis is fucking intimidating as shit.
> no such thing as talent
Yes, I understand, but specialized intelligence does play a role. If you grind ANYTHING hard enough, though, you'll probably end up decent at it. Hence why I'm here.
Anon313 hasn't posted yet and he was last seen 17 hours ago.
I...
I think we're gonna have a casualty today, gentlemen.
>>2601151
No way, Anon313 is the God of Flawless, there's no way he'll fall.
>>2601139
are you retarded? It takes countless hours to get good at anything.
>>2601130
>I can't grind 5 hours of drawabox or Scott Robertson or Loomis.
Then you're not gonna make it. And what do you mean you have to think for math? It's literally following the same pair of steps just with different numbers every time. If you can't grind at something for a couple hours then you're just not gonna make it famalam.
Since we all seem to be sharing: Another programmer here trying to learn art. I got into art because I found myself doodling and drawing stuff in my free time. I enjoy it, but also was a bit frustrated that I couldn't achieve what I imagined in my mind on paper or in a painting program. So I decided to start actively learning art.
It's funny actually, the things I learned through programming apply really well to art. Take a big problem (how do I make shit I want to make?) and break it down into smaller parts. Keep doing that until you get to a level where the parts are manageable. Do those parts. Eventually you'll have enough built up that you can finally tackle that major problem and solve it. The grind isn't always fun (neither is programming), but I do enjoy applying what I've learned and knowing I'm one step closer to my goal.
>>2601089
I'd say it's better to upload them one by one. That way people can see as you progress, right now the challenges feel a little dead because you just get a burst of submissions at the last second so you can't really take them all in.
>>2601170
>Everyone is allowed ONLY 1 single post
>>2601170
less than 3 posts per person
wow
>>2601172
For a thread about getting better you same few people sure do shitpost a lot.
Damn right it should be 1 single post. Probably per day.
>>2601174
>4*
>>2601175
>making 2 posts
Really blowing past your daily allowance fucko :^)
>not allowed to have a conversation in a forum
>>2601170
man, las always feels so much bigger than it really is. That's probably partly because everything is anon so you don't realize that you're talking to the same handful of people every time.
>>2601184
This isn't a forum unfortunately. You have discord for conversation, no? (-:
Last time I checked this board was called artwork and critique and I see no artwork in this thread nor critique. Just a couple of samefriends talking to each other.
>>2601187
Around 90-100 people average post in the threads (check the last thread) and around 100 people are active on LAS, it's pretty bang on consistent.
>>2601184
>a forum
literally kill yourself :^^^^^^)
>>2601195
(:<
>>2601191
The problem is the last thread max at 700ish replies. The 70 people that come to this thread eventually probably don't hang out here as much as the same 16-18 people who make up the majority of the posts--the vocal minority so to speak.
>>2601170
3 posts each average is pretty good for these threads tbqhfamilia.
Though of course a bunch will be the shitposters filling the thread with samefag, and then a few people who only post once.
What do you guys think of our lovely new /las/sies? We've got 16 new recruits so far in this week and last. I usually use the active page to check out fresh faces since it's hard to spot them in the tons of thumbnails. http://lavaflake.com/draw/active.php
Candycone and ukanon have some solid life drawing in already, and I feel like solyomkuu is yet to reveal their power level.
Also we just passed 500 people who have signed up, GG. Even though most are already dead, it's the thought that counts.
>>2601187
>>2601189
>Anon313 has been posting in every thread since the start
>He was the STELLA poster
>He now pretends to be Santi
>>2601198
>70
>16-18
This thread's only been alive for 4 hours to be coming to conclusions on how many are regulars and irregulars.
Did you do your 3x5 squats yet today, dear anons? You better have!
>>2601201
The stats are there, don't be an idiot.
Haven't even posted one drawing yet ;_;
>>2601207
>don't be an idiot.
Like you are being?
Man, there's a lot of red in my challenge page now :/
>>2601209
I'm being your father cuming in your sister and mother.
>>2601212
<_<;
>>2601212
>not "wives daughter"
ONE job.
How is the gym treating you today /las/?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0bFc3n2kQs
>>2601219
i have a gym membership but im doing scooby's home workouts until im able to do a full set of pullups
it's been two weeks and i can almost do one
>>2601224
GOMAD
>>2601227
Not him, but would that work with soy milk as well? I'm lactose intolerant.
>tfw I don't use LAS to upload and instead use it as a glorified viewer for other peoples work
>>2601229
>lactose intolerant
not gonna make it
>>2601234
I don't really work out for mass anyway. I'm a runner.
>>2601229
>>2601236
I dont really recommend GOMAD unless you're finding it really impossible to gain weight. It'll get you the protein and calories you need but it's much better to just have a normal diet. /fit/ says soy milk isn't great for muscle mass because of estrogen or something.
If you're a runner then holy shit no eat good carbs vegetables and lean proteins
>>2601229
it's just a meme. Get enough protein a day it doesn't matter how you get it. Soymilk is fine and has a good amount of it.
cow milk can sometimes cause bad acne in people anyway. I know a couple bodybuilder friends who got off it and their skin cleared up perfectly in around a month.
>>2601236
runnerman?
>>2601238
>/fit/ says soy milk isn't great for muscle mass because of estrogen
It's funny because studies have conclusively shown there is no correlation between soy and increased estrogen but they HAVE shown a correlation between dairy milk and estrogen.
>>2601236
jerrybreem?
>join Huston Figure Drawing challenge
>don't realize I somehow need a book for it
>it's not on libgen
>trying to draw and a paint for a few hours
>this isnt going well maybe I should nap for a little
>mfw 5 hours later
sleeping in the middle of the day is never the solution
>>2601247
its ok slump youll make it
>>2601236
>I don't really work out for mass anyway. I'm a runner.
why tho. Being able to produce force through strength is great. You don't even need a gym membership for cardio.
>>2601231
If only there were people here who's art was worth viewing ;^)
>>2601246
it's in the art book thread
>>2601246
check the archived art book thread
>>2601250
yeah, Everyone gets their cardio in from pokemon GO anyway
Rylaifu, it says its a seven day challenge but you put the duration at 5. I don't understand.
>>2601268
kek
>tfw JerryBreem became JerryBeen
http://lavaflake.com/draw/jerrybeen/
>>2601269
>he doesn't have a hyperbolic time chamber
Not gonna make it
>>2601273
made me kek, good job
With apologies to AAphk and Lokki respectively, I'd like to hear your feedback on the challenge I made.
Was it useful to you? Did you end up learning something valuable, or drawing more effectively/productively? Did you get some insight in how people perceive your weaknesses? Or was it ultimately a waste of your time?
>>2601272
Holy shit, thank you based Lava
I don't have a scanner, can I submit a photo?
>>2601269
I can't restart it on the same day it ends
>>2601280
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
yes, make sure it's well lighted and not dog shit quality
oh and make sure it's not actually someone else's art ;^)
>>2601284
fuck you, I'm submitting pictures of my dead brother's art and you can't stop me!
>>2601250
I was on track in community college, and sprinters need tone, not mass.
>>2601287
>tone
what does this mean
>storm's coming is winning
I really wish only topic entrants could vote
that topic is shit as balls, m8s
>>2601289
draw the sister castle to storm's end
>>2601291
>>2601289
:^)
>>2601288
Muscle that, while strong and hardened, isn't excessively bulky. Think Bruce Lee.
I don't know if I'm gonna make it guys, My ligament is consistently feeling worse and worse each day that goes by that I don't draw. Watching others who have the spark pass me by only compounds onto the fact that my Neuroplasticity is constantly draining as well.
Not only that, when others ask me to show them my work, this is all I have to flash them.
>>2601299
>memer goes too far
>>2601299
>my Neuroplasticity is constantly draining
>not "I'm beginning to rapidly lose Neuroplasticity"
ONE JOB
hey rylaifu, are you reposting old work? stop that
today's submit 7/13:
http://imgur.com/a/kIowR
from 7/2: http://kirakirakami.tumblr.com/post/146817425610/6-comic-challenge-concept-and-roughs-for-first
>>2601303
top kek
top reported
>>2601287
so sprinters wouldn't profit from being able to squat 4 plate?
>>2601303
kill
kill
killlll
>>2601302
You're right, luckily it's only the first draft :^)
>>2601303
aw shit
why'd you do it man
>>2601309
>it's evolving
D:
>>2601303
Here's a tip from a pro. If you're going to upload something old, at least put a color overlay filter on it next time to make it look like you did something new. :^)
>>2601303
maybe this sacrifice will make lava come back?
I know that storm's coming was topic of the day before, so why vote it again
>>2601321
They were all topic of the day before.
>>2601296
there is no such thing as tone, what Bruce Lee has is low body fat
>>2601323
when was mysterious topic?
might have been too long ago
>>2601327
36 days ago, hover your mouse over it.
rozzle: the flower girl's eye needs to be moved down and to the left more.
>>2601329
nigger I hope you are pretending to be retarded
that indicates when it was last seen, not when it was last the topic of the day
So why do we give text emoticons a pass in these threads?
>>2601327
It was topic of the day 143 days ago.
>>2601335
thanks
now that I look it up storm's coming was the day before
what a coincidence
still shit topic
>>2601333
art means tumblr means normies
Holy fuck anon313 hasn't submitted yet. If he leaves LAS I'm gonna leave too
Santi, you fucking loser, you didn't do your crit challenge so you upload this shit so the little box stays green?
http://imgur.com/a/Xp5c3
>>2601333
because we do it ironically ;^)
>>2601340
>http://imgur.com/a/Xp5c3
kek
>>2601340
fucking KEK
>>2601340
Newfag here, what does this mean?
>>2601339
>tfw my greatest opponent finally dies out of no where
pssh, too easy
>>2601346
jmgn?
>>2601340
Fucking fantastic Santi, you're improvement is astounding!
>>2601345
he didn't do the challenge and submitted that in place of his submission
>>2601352
We need some kind of report for challenges, so people don't avoid SHAME.
>>2601352
I get that, but I have seen that pic posted before in these threads, and google doesn't give me anything. Is it another meme?
>>2601348
choob
santi's submission today for topic is basically the one from yesterday too
>>2601360
http://pre07.deviantart.net/ec9c/th/pre/i/2016/194/b/9/fire_book_wip_by_santichasca-da9w217.jpg
http://pre15.deviantart.net/f393/th/pre/f/2016/195/6/f/fire_book_wip_by_santichasca-daa0fmb.jpg
AHHHHH
>>2601363
HMAN WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO SANTI
10 minutes left and anon313 hasn't submitted.
Get your red pens ready boys, today is a red day.
is grach beck?
>>2601356
>Is it another meme
yup
A-Anon313?
>>2601373
he still has a token right?
So how would I go about camping while also submitting my drawings?
>>2601276
It served its purpose. Forcing me to do shit I don't wanna do so I at least get some practice at it.
Going back to comfort zoning now that it's over.
>>2601379
He will no longer be one of The Flawless.
>>2601381
do you still get 3g or 4g there? If not then you're probably fucked. (or have someone submit for you)
>>2601381
You don't.
Enjoy your camping trip.
>>2601381
Build a fire and use smoke signals to show Lava your submission
>>2601307
I don't know what four plate means, but at the time I weighed 115-ish, and squated with around 200 on my shoulders at max.
>>2601325
That's part of the toned look really, but I'm talking more about the way that you can see definition, and his muscles were hardened, but they were torn down rather than built up.
Basically, to work towards tone, or strength without bulk, I just did more reps per set than somebody who wanted to gain mass/bulk.
>>2601387
kek
5 MINUTES PLEASE ANON313 DON'T ABANDON US
>>2601057
I really wanted to do traditional for that one anon but i couldn't find those damn peg bars.
holy shit I don't believe it loomis actually got to anon313?
>>2601396
RIP anon313
>>2601399
no he's safe, damn.
there he is you morons
with a whole 30 seconds to spare
>Anon313 submitted with 1 minute to spare
fucking hell
RIP
He was a good flawless, but Loomis got him.
so i posted 3 things over the course of the past week and unfortunately, my computer completely bricked itself. i'm doing traditional art and stuff now but i'm not sure how often i'll be able to upload and if i'm even able to do it through my phone.
RIP pixel
>>2601405
>I'm too retarded to double check
also fuck that, how did storm's coming win it was tied with mysterious
https://imgur.com/eoUrTPO
HE MADE IT LADS
>pixel died in his place
D:
>>2601409
We do get to use our pens! I was disappointed for a minute.
>tribunal 0
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
SANTI SUBMIT THE SAME SHIT FROM YESTERDAY
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
WEEK ONER DOWN I REPEAT WEEK ONER DOWN
PIXEL IS OUTTA THE BATTLE ROYALE PHOTO
>>2601412
He did it on purpose to frighten us the bastard.
so anon313 either forgot the time or he was too invested into his forza submission
>>2601411
It probably breaks ties by picking the first one in the list. Shit sucks.
Pixel taking one for the team
>>2601415
No I didn't. I spent 5 hours on the book today so fuck off. Where's gif guy?
>SantiChasca lives in a 3rd world country with unreliable internet so they have been eliminated from
>Topic Challenge #2-21
kek
His name was pixel
>>2601423
>5 hours
KEEEK
>>2601424
>2
Dammit, I thought we were a little closer to escaping.
>>2601423
>5 hours
yesterday:
FUCKING WOT M8
http://pre07.deviantart.net/ec9c/th/pre/i/2016/194/b/9/fire_book_wip_by_santichasca-da9w217.jpg
today:
http://pre15.deviantart.net/f393/th/pre/f/2016/195/6/f/fire_book_wip_by_santichasca-daa0fmb.jpg
it actually looks less finished, fuck off
>>2601428
>tfw forever stuck in topic challenge hell where my autism is my greatest enemy
Shit, day 6 is REALLY getting lonely
>get told to try drawing with decisive lines instead of scribbling everything
>try it
Anons couldn't you just have let me live in bliss.
All this time and I never knew how bad I was at drawing.
>>2601424
>#2-21
How deos it feel santi to be out of topic challenge hell?
this is how you plan to make it, Santi?
>>2601423
>I spent 5 hours on the book today so fuck off. Where's gif guy?
>>2601442
THE FIRE WAS ALREADY THERE YESTERDAY
ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED
>>2601426
>weekone dies
>everybody talks about anon313 taking too long to post
this will also happen to me, that's why I'm never quitting.
pixel ;_;
>>2601449
>See? I messed around with this for hours, actually spent more time than yesterday.
>>2601449
it's literally the same, holy shit you're not only going to get reported but also deported
IT IS TIME! PLEASE CRIT CATH TODAY! CRIT CATH NOW! DO IT!
Tumblr
http://cathlas.tumblr.com/archive
LAS
http://lavaflake.com/draw/users/?id=284
>>2601454
Oh okay, it's just a meme. I thought you were being serious.
>>2601443
To be fair I could see half an hour at least being spent on the lighting, maybe an hour if you keep changing your mind. But 5? 5 hours if you're playing games at the same time or marathoning the lord of the rings films or some shit.
>>2601458
TRIBUNAL
R
I
B
U
N
A
L
>>2601456
>tfw I'll never be in week one ;_;
Why even start?
>>2601456
Fibinochi is still in.
Don't get o anxious. His time will come.
>>2601461
I was looking at ref, and binge watching a movie. Granted it wasn't 5 hours of extreme work but I can assure you I spent all evening working on the damn book and it's infuriating to get accused of low effort when I've worked more than usual. It was also mostly messing with the layers, tweaking things, experimenting, etc
>>2601462
Fuck off dude are you telling me Hman and fibinochi are going to get away and you're going to report something that isn't even near low effort
>>2601456
>tfw qt pixel died
why ;_____;
>>2601459
>Crit Sensei overpowering Loomis
i-impossible!
>>2601467
oh so its just you trying to be epic again, more reason to report
