Lets cut to the meat of things, does talent exist? Lets sort this out once and for all
>>2590886
Yes. It's what separates everyone. Those with more talent and those with less. If there were no such thing as talent. Everyone would be equal.
>>2590886
Talent for intellectually demanding tasks = Intelligence.
And I'm guessing you don't have a lot of talent if you have to ask questions like this, right anon?
>>2590886
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZiRZrYo5tA
>>2590914
>thinking that the fact that siblings got similar results is because of "muh genetics" and not because of lifestyle and uppringing
dropped
>>2590886
of course theres no talent goyim
nigger from africa can be just as good at drawing as you my friend
>>2590919
Okay but why, in similar tests, do twins separated at birth get the same results despite being raised by different parents?
>>2590930
link to study pls
>>2590930
The first pair Bouchard met, James Arthur Springer and James Edward Lewis, had just been reunited at age 39 after being given up by their mother and separately adopted as 1-month-olds. Springer and Lewis, both Ohioans, found they had each married and divorced a woman named Linda and remarried a Betty. They shared interests in mechanical drawing and carpentry; their favorite school subject had been math, their least favorite, spelling. They smoked and drank the same amount and got headaches at the same time of day.
Equally astounding was another set of twins, Oskar Stohr and Jack Yufe. At first, they appeared to be a textbook case of the primacy of culture in forming individuals — just the opposite of the Lewis-Springer pair. Separated from his twin six months after their birth in Trinidad, Oskar was brought up Catholic in Germany and joined the Hitler Youth. Jack stayed behind in the Caribbean, was raised a Jew and lived for a time in Israel. Yet despite the stark contrast of their lives, when the twins were reunited in their fifth decade they had similar speech and thought patterns, similar gaits, a taste for spicy foods and common peculiarities such as flushing the toilet before they used it.
Daphne Goodship and Barbara Herbert first met when they were 40. Debbie was raised Jewish and Sharon was raised Catholic.
They, too, have discovered remarkably similar life experiences. “We discovered we had a miscarriage the same year, followed by two boys and a girl in that order,” says Barbara.
They admit that they’ve also cooked the same meal from the same recipe book on the same day, without knowing it.
Segal called Daphne and Barbara the “giggle twins” because they laugh and fold their arms the same way.
Because they never had to compete with each other, these twins believe they were freer to express their genetic potential. “You are what you are,” says Barbara.
>>2590936
to me, those are just coincidences. not indications of hard wired genetic abilities.
similarities you could find between every pair of persons if you searched hard enough.
Here's a better question. If inherent talent exists, would it change what individual people like you or I should be doing to maximize our chances of getting the things we want?
>>2590932
Well, when trying to find what I had originally read about quite a while ago I actually came across a counter to it. It's not what you asked for but it addresses it:
http://www.madinamerica.com/2014/12/studies-reared-apart-separated-twins-facts-fallacies/
'Twins reared-apart studies have certainly helped generate some interesting hypotheses, but they have completely failed to provide scientifically acceptable evidence in support of genetic influences on human behavioral differences, which include IQ, personality, and psychiatric disorders—a conclusion consistent with the ongoing decades-old failure to uncover genes for behavioral characteristics at the molecular genetic level. As Bouchard acknowledged in 2014, “In spite of numerous studies with sufficient power to detect rather small effects,” the results of attempts to uncover genes for general intelligence (g) “have been dismal in comparison with expectation.”32"
So I guess you're right anon.
>>2590943
Maybe, winners will keep winning and losers will keep losing. It's how life is.
>>2590943
/thread
>>2590944
i work with kids with learning disabilities. i tell you, its not that they don't have potential or intelligence. they just got fucked over by their parents. not in a genetical way... not counting kids with actual genetic birth defects like trysomie 21. although, even with those kids, you can se DRAMATIC differences depending on the environment they grew up in.
>>2590948
but a "loser" that's aware that talent does not exist and applies that knowledge (iow practices right and like a mad man) has a HUGE advantage over a "winner" that had good starting conditions but relies on his "talent" to get him by.
>>2590943
If I knew that I'm never going to reach a professional level I would drop all the studies at an instant and just doodle for fun
Inherent talent exists but it won't help that much if it's not paired with decent impulse control. Mastering something takes at least some level of discipline. Might as well focus on that instead of worrying if someone else was born with an inherent advantage.
>>2590906
This. You don't need to practice to learn, but you /will/ learn if you practice.
My 2 cents:
When I was in art school there were about 5-6 people that were considered talented in a class of 32.
Over the span of 4 years, most of them still stood at the top of the class skillwise but the gap was already closing.
Now 3 years later there are only 4 people left of that class that acctually use their skills to make a living.
None of them are the talented ones.
Now I'm not saying that talent is the cause of that but more that you don't need it to succeed.
Talent is a nice first step that will get you praise early on but persistence is more important.
>>2590886
Talent is real and denying it only became a thing to tell kids they can be anything they want so no one has to feel bad about being terrible at certain things.
>>2591103
this.
>>2590886
I don't believe in talent. I think some people have an easier time understanding some things than others, but isn't that just an area of intelligence?
Every kind of thing I wanted to learn I always was able to learn and be good at it if I worked hard enough. People before have told me I'm talented but I don't believe that, any of the "talented" people I've known since childhood never seem to stick to the thing they were good at, instead I just seem to meet the ones who worked hard.
Instead of talent I like to call it affinity.
You know well that half of the people are gonna say no and the other half yes, that is not going to sort it out.
Anyone without a neurological disability can eventually learn anything, but some might get things easier due to their larger interest in it, the amount of work they put into it or certain parts of their brain not being developed yet. We can train our brain to get better at things, even improve our IQ (unless you have a disability)
For example, most autistic people can never be great businessmen. They are unable to learn certain social skills that are needed to appear likeable and charming, but they can excel at many non-social skills, including drawing.
There are conditions that might make it harder for you to become a good artist, but very few people would be completely unable to learn how to draw.
>>2590886
Talent exists in the sense your previous likes/dislikes and skills allow you to have a certain amount of skill going in.
A person who does alot of running throwing having more ease and proficiency learning Kickboxing compared to an Accountant.
>>2591149
Poseurs
You don't need to be particularly "talanted" or intelligent; although that helps. Its not like you are pioneering a new field or reinventing the wheel. There are established methods of how to become good at drawing. There are books on construction and lighting there are tutors online, courses, schools etc. If you feel stuck with your ability, just ask someone who knows, read a book, put your work up for critique etc. As simple as that.
Whats more important is that you push yourself constantly and study the right things, and study efficently; not doing the same easy thing over and over again. This is what differenciates people who achive their ambition and those who don't.
>>2591179
Couldn't the drive and will to keep pushing yourself be considered a talent, though? It certainly seems out of the control of the individual.
>>2591185
If self-motivation is out of control of the individual, what IS the individual in control of? Or do you throw out free will entirely?
>>2591179
>reinvent the wheel
You don't know what this means
>>2590943
No
Which is why the entire debate around talent is pointless.
Yes, there will be savants who will draw better at 15 than you will your whole lifetime, but its irrelevant since they are he ultimate anomaly and not the norm to which the world is tailored to.
>>2591189
Well, if one guy really wants to be a master artist and another guy kinda wants to be a master artist, I don't really see that there's anything the latter can do about it to get on the former's level.
How do you make yourself want something?
You are a loser if you have to work hard for something someone else can do with no effort/minimal practice.
Literally being cucked by the universe, lmao.
>>2591215
So that's a 'no' to the existence of free will?
>>2591220
whats the point of this post besides bait?
>>2591226
If by "free" you mean it happens without any inciting event, then yeah I guess. The human psyche isn't somehow exempt from causality.
>>2591185
Ultimatley we are in charge of our thoughts, actions and habits. We chose which ideas to cultivate and those ultimatley become who we are, what our goals are and our actions.
This is not a talent. If you realise a thought you had, that made it into action, gives positive feedback, we will naturally do it more frequently. This can be done artificially by projecting what kinda future you want and setting up realistic goals.
>>2591190
I meant that there are established methods of painting and drawing, from masters, that we can all learn from. Teachers, internet, books and fellow artists all provide and share us with these resources and ideas. We don't have to discover them on our own; hence reinvent the wheel phrase.
Talent is real.
I was born talented, with a natural affinity towards rendering visuals into replicated works, the same way that some people are just good at running or brilliant at piano, but talent can only take you so far.
If you do what I did and neglect your studies you'll quickly find that the untalented but studious quickly overtake you in skill and technique. Talent is something that needs to be maintained, like a muscle. If you ignore it and assume that your legs will always be strong and always be able to carry you up that hill where others will struggle, they'll start shrivelling before you can even notice.
>>2591237
Butbis it controlled completely by preceding events, or merely informed by them?
>>2591120
>no one except the kid
>>2590886
>does talent exist?
What if it's like Bert Dodson says at the end of Keys to Drawing, when he compares Mozart to Beethoven?
Everyone would like to be like Mozard and just smoothly write masterpiece after masterpiece but most people are more like Beethoven and have to work long and hard for each and every one.
> Talent is already here, hard work brings it out.
Doesnt matter. If people hire you and you can live off your art you are probably not untalented.
>>2591878
Don't tell people that, they'll think they're actually good just because they make money off of furry porn.
>>2591858
>Everyone would like to be like Mozard and just smoothly write masterpiece after masterpiece
"Mozart's method of composing was not quite the wonder it was long
thought to be. For nearly two hundred years many people have believed
that he had a miraculous ability to compose entire major pieces in his
head, after which writing them down was mere clerical work. That view
was based on a famous letter in which he says as much: "the whole,
though it be long, stands almost finished and complete in my mind . . .
the committing to paper is done quickly enough .. . and it rarely differs
on paper from what it was in my imagination."
That report certainly does portray a superhuman performer. The
trouble is, this letter is a forgery, as many scholars later established.
Mozart did not conceive whole works in his mind, perfect and complete.
Surviving manuscripts show that Mozart was constantly revising,
reworking, crossing out and rewriting whole sections, jotting down
fragments and putting them aside for months or years. Though it makes
the results no less magnificent, he wrote music the way ordinary humans
do.
....If the average music
student needs six years of preparation before publicly playing a piece,
and a given prodigy did it after three years, that student would have an
index of 100 percent. Mozart's index is around 130 percent, clearly ahead
of average students. But twentieth-century prodigies score 300 percent
to 500 percent. This is another example of rising standards. The effects
of today's improved training methods apparently swamp the effects of
Mozart's genius as a performer. "
https://analizamatematicampt.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/talent-is_overrated-what-really-separates-world-class-performers-from-everybody-else.pdf
>>2591957
>"Talent is Overrated" book
Nice source.
I think what we call talent is that little autistic spark that makes an artists do what he does. Some lose it early, some only had very little of it and give up, some keep it alive, practice and dedicate their time on whatever their art is and get better and in time sometimes they become great.
>>2591964
Yeah it's pretty great. It pretty much shuts down the idea of talent.
>>2591957
It is commonly acknowledged by historians that mozart was so adroit at piano because of the meticulous training his father gave him at an early age. The father was a lesser known composer and pianist but was known for teaching children, and when his son came around he was well prepared to create the most skilled pianist the world has ever seen.
The same thing we have seen with the children of lazlo polgar, an educational phycologist. Who raised his three daughters to be increadibly young chess grandmasters in a time where women weren't even competing in that level of chess.
Goes to show that proper training goes a far way, and the neural placticity certainly help to absorb all the information quicker. The book "peaks" talks about this in much greater detail.
>>2591967
Why am I seeing the word "autistic" used as a synonym for "passionate" or "genius" everywhere on this fucking board?
Talent is a meme spouted by shitters that don't want to feel responsible for their own lack of success.
>>2592723
Passion evokes the image of a hot blooded desire to do something and less the steady, mundane discipline to grind away at a craft for years on end. Genius is a term used to abstract away a person's hard work and place them in a class you don't have to compete with or be compared against. It excuses the non-geniuses from trying.
>>2592729
So Jeff Watts is shitter?))
>>2590886
Every person has a way to handle problems or react to circumstances unintentionally, not all ways are helpful for every approach. Through this some people do the right thing unintentionally, while others has to go against this and actively change their behaviour, which takes away the "just doing it" lightness. For me talent exists through this.
>>2590943
Of course, why would i waste multiple more time at something which would require for me to get even badly decent. I would rather choose to be come a consumer than a creator in such direction and look into something else i can draw pleasure from and without the larger amount of disapointments.
>>2592798
Life will be full of dissapointments if you expect things to go easily with blissfull luck. You can't scavenge for something to master or build hoping it won't be challaging and without people exceeding you. The only way to be content is to yield yourself to a life without expectations and living day by they for your chosen path. If you think you are more inclined to do something else than drawing, then why not do it. If you are afraid to do what you think you are inclined to do because of external forces. remember that one day you and everybody you know will die and civilisation will collapse, and earth will be shattered and the universe will remain cold and unobserved by centient lifeforms. Best of luck to you.
>>2592830
You got anything beside 2 penny wisdom and empty motivational chants, that never survive a reality check?
>>2592843
No. Just that the narrative you weave for yourself will greatly impact your attitude. If you want to stress you phycological homeostasis and change who you are you ultimatley have to believe certain things about yourself and the world, doesn't necessarly mean that what i told you I think is of imutable truth. Just trying to be helpful.
>>2592872
You are not helping anyone, you are just parroting self delusional of people who will waste their time on stuff they will never fullfill. At least have the honesty to say that all that effort blindy wasted will be the future of those who follow your way without questioning. I know your type, you hand out great promises effortlessly, whitout thinking about the consequences and how useful it actually is. Hundreds could fail through your words and you would still call win, when someone makes it through them.
>>2592723
High functioning autistic people are often obsessed with certain hobbies which they pursue very passionately.
>>2592723
It's self deprecation
>>2592872
The world doesn't need more Sycras.
>>2592909
I'm proposing that you contemplate your actions. But don't expect sucess if you aren't chiefly incontroll of them. Just do what you set out to do and be content with whatever the result is. This will evade any undermining feelings of dissapointment and failure; this goes for anything in life.
I think alot of people do things for the wrong reasons, especially art, because they dont contemplate it enough. People want glory from a distinguished career, money and easy going work; those expectations soon gets chrused when they realise the sacrifice of the required education. Like in anything it requires self decipline and a firm grasp of what you have to sacrifce to attain your goals.
Lastly, you don't know me. And I'm not responsible for what anyone does. You have the option to take my advice or not and if people succeed or fail thats on them.
>>2593034
Your just a babbler, you post because you like to see your own posts, there is no real intention of helping others behind that, all that talking and so little to say. You didnt manage to provide anything for what you said and your total ignorance to what people make out of what you suggest them just shows how useless your comments are.
>>2591103
"Making a living" out of visual art is mostly a meme. Almost everyone in the hall of fame was either supported by family, friends, peers, patrons, churches, academies, on the side or they were NEETS/bums (like Escher or Van Gogh). Curiously (or not) almost all of them are what you would call talented rather than industrious, regardless of technical know-how and number of paintings sold.
>>2592720
>The same thing we have seen with the children of lazlo polgar, an educational phycologist. Who raised his three daughters to be increadibly young chess grandmasters in a time where women weren't even competing in that level of chess.
Was reading the book that's mentioned in what you're responding to and recently read the a chapter that talks about them.
Just came across something that insinuates neural plasticity, or at least something similar to it. It says something about growth and permanent changes to the brain during development being the most prominent at an early age, but it's still possible when you get older. Though at very old age you start to deteriorate.
>tfw vilppu is starting to deteriorate
Gonna check out the book you mentioned later too.
>>2593053
I can't find any subtance to respond in this. Endearing ad hominem though.
Like genetic talent? No. In sports it does, but in something like art it doesnt exist at all.
>>2593200
So you give 2 penny wisdom and parroting, and then wonder why you cant find anything to respond when pointed out for it? Big suprise! That is simply because you never had anything solid to start with. In the end for you it is all about the warm feeling of seeing your own posts and being "right" on the internet. You recomendations are similar to a lottery winner to play the lottery.
>>2593200
Dont give shitty advise and then cry muh ad hominem, when getting told.
>>2593342
My advice is simply that if you take a certain attitude towards achiving your goals you will be much happier and productive. Im not recommending being foolish and buy lottery tickets. On the countrary embracing stoic virtues of hard work coupled with a realistic outlook on life.
>>2593542
Its generall advice on how to approach things in life with stoic virtue. I think its sensible. If anyone doesn't agree I'm pleased to hear an elaborate critique with actuall non fallaiouce argumentation.
>>2590886
only intelligence.
>>2590886
Well you aren't born knowing how to paint but you can be born with superior hand eye coordination and the ability to easily visualise things.
But that only shaves the novice period off a few months. It's like on a scale of 1-10 you start off at 1 instead of 0. Most people only ever make it to 4 or 5, few reach 9-10 in terms of artistic ability.
Being talented just means you start off grasping the basic concepts much easier than others but thats basically just an extra pebble into the mountain that it takes to git gud.
>>2593872
You could be right, if you would said something from the start, but so it was just garbage.
>>2594106
>You could be right, if you would said something from the start, but so it was just garbage.
Frankly I enjoy thaving meaningful dicsussions with people more than being right. Your retorts in this discours is examplary relentless vapid agruing, with unsubstantial and inarticulate critiques.
Good riddance to you.
>>2594116
Spare us with your useless help and eloquent defensive shitpostings, because it is simply that is what it is in the end. I am the third one telling you this, so either everyone is an idiot but you or there a far more logical answer to that. If you would be what you claimed, you just would have shrugged it off and moved on, but ironically you provide for all claims brought up against you. You are just another shitty troll on the internet.
>>2594116
>Frankly I enjoy thaving meaningful dicsussions with people more than being right.
We can see that.
>>2590943
If you ask me, the answer to that question is depending on the individual goal of every individual person. Not everyone draws for the same reasons. Not everyone wants the same end game. Some people have the goal of simply wanting to be the very best. In competition, it's that little tiny bit of a difference that often determines who is superior. To the competitive, every little bit counts. Including and especially, whether or not talent exists.
If you ask me, anyone who is in it mainly for the competition is definitely wasting their time and should be doing something else. Any skill you develop is going to be horribly time consuming, and that's time they could spend doing other things or learning other skills, or maybe competing in something they feel is a more "fair" arena.
It's idealistic thinking to assume that people should just be able to strive for personal bests and following their passions and personal development. Most people aren't thinking of that, but of how they're going to get a paycheck out of it. You have to remember, most of /ic/ wants to be concept artists, which by default, is a very competitive and over-saturated field to begin with. You're competing with the best of the best to get that one little job. It's obvious why this discussion pops up as often as it does. I think it's through discussions like these that people can sort out what they should be doing with their life. If they give up, then good, less artists means more available jobs. Why bother trying to motivate them to do something they clearly don't feel fulfilled doing?
